Article 4975 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! References: <3B17DD72.7BDA421B@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 01 Jun 2001 12:32:36 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 1 Jun 2001 12:49:37 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4975 Arthur Krewat writes: > And how many cycles did it require to do a move from memory in one instruction? > 8080 took 5 for the LHLD and 2 for the move. Forgive me, I can't find my > 6502 book :) The 8080 can't do *anything* in two cycles. On the 6502, if you have a pointer to a memory location in a zero-page address, you can load the contents of that location into the accumulator in four cycles. The 6502 may not have had a very friendly instruction set, but it could do more work in fewer clock cycles than any 8-bitter of its time except the 6809. For most purposes a 1 MHz 6502 was about as fast as a 4 MHz Z-80. But back in 1977 you could buy 3 MHz 6502s, whereas 4 MHz was the fastest Z-80 of the time. Later they introduced the 6 MHz Z-80, and much later 8 MHz. They didn't get much faster until Hitachi redesigned the core in CMOS. Article 4978 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! Date: 1 Jun 2001 13:37:50 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9f8ueu019kd@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3B17DD72.7BDA421B@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-535.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4978 In article , aek@spies.com says... > >In article , Eric Smith > wrote: > >> >> Later they introduced the 6 MHz Z-80, and much later 8 MHz. They didn't >> get much faster until Hitachi redesigned the core in CMOS. > >Hitachi did a CMOS Z80? I thought they were in the Moto camp (6309) From the comp.os.cpm FAQ: The Z180 was not an outgrowth of the Z800. It was a joint effort between Zilog and Hitachi. The first two versions of the HD64180 were slightly different from the current Z180. The current HD64180 and Z180 are identical, and both have flags in one of the control registers to emulate the earlier versions. The changes are mostly bus timing, as the HD64180 was designed to interface with Motorola 6800 style peripherals as well as Intel and Zilog, which wasn't too strange since Hitachi second sources some Motorola 6800 series products. Tim. Article 4983 of alt.sys.pdp10: From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! Date: 1 Jun 2001 16:28:20 -0700 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9f98ek$2pd$1@spies.com> References: <3B1820ED.44F8F3E8@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 1 Jun 2001 16:46:28 -0700, spies.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4983 From article <3B1820ED.44F8F3E8@bartek.dontspamme.net>, by Arthur Krewat : > > What did the fastest 6502 run at, 2 MHZ? My VAX-11/750 runs 8Mhz with 32 bits. ^^ does 14MHz http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/distribution.html Article 4992 of alt.sys.pdp10: From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! Date: 02 Jun 2001 21:57:11 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6ubso6irjc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B17DD72.7BDA421B@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3B1820ED.44F8F3E8@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 2001 19:57:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: ascension.ethz.ch X-Trace: 2 Jun 2001 21:57:41 +0200, ascension.ethz.ch Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news-zh.switch.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4992 10 posts in alt.sys.pdp10 today. All in the 6502 thread. Spooky. :-) Eric Smith writes: > I wrote: > > The 8080 can't do *anything* in two cycles. > > Arthur Krewat writes: > > Interesting, my Intel 8080 said that move from memory was 2 cycles - > > of course, there was probably the instruction fetch itself. > > Terminology problem. I should have said that the 8080 can't do anything > in two clocks. Intel talks about cycles that are each 3 or 4 clocks, IIRC. 8080 and Z80 cycles are 4 or 5 clocks. 5 clocks for instruction fetches, 4 for all others. The first processor I ever programmed was a Z80. > > What did the fastest 6502 run at, 2 MHZ? My VAX-11/750 runs 8Mhz with > > 32 bits. 6502 was introduced 1976 at 1MHz, later (first half 1980s) there were 2 and 4MHz around. 8080 AFAIK started somewhere 1-2MHz in 1984. Went up to about 5MHz (or was that already its 8085 version?). Z80 started with 2.5MHz in 1976, then 4MHz (Z80A), then 6MHz (Z80B), then 8MHz (Z80H) in the same time frame. > Apples and oranges. The VAX-11/750 is a 32-bit minicomputer, not a > microprocessor. And it was introduced years later than the 8080, 6502, > or Z-80. About 1978 for the first VAX (11/780). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery Article 5006 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! References: <3B17DD72.7BDA421B@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3B1820ED.44F8F3E8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ubso6irjc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 04 Jun 2001 15:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 5 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 4 Jun 2001 15:39:58 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5006 Neil Franklin writes: > 6502 was introduced 1976 at 1MHz, later (first half 1980s) there were > 2 and 4MHz around. 2 and 3 MHz were readily available in 1977. 4 MHz was scarce until 1979. Article 4981 of alt.sys.pdp10: From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! Date: 02 Jun 2001 00:52:08 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 55 Message-ID: <6ulmnbke3r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2001 22:52:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: ascension.ethz.ch X-Trace: 2 Jun 2001 00:52:41 +0200, ascension.ethz.ch Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news-zh.switch.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4981 pwilson@world.std.com (Pete Wilson) writes: > Ben Franchuk wrote, speaking of the 6502: > > > Well no more dread full than any 8 bit uP made - 6800 8080 z80 8088 > > and the few other chips left out are simply not general purpose computers. > > Oh, now, really! History asks me to defend the Z80 which, after all, > could do a load of a register from memory without a preceding explicit > load of H&L! I mean -- get serious :-) > Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! Bang! Z80: LD A,(1234) 3A 34 12 13 Tstates, 3.25us @ 4MHz Actually 8080 could also do that. 6502: LDA 1234 AD 34 12 4 clocks, 2us @ 2HMz Seems to be the same thing, just a bit faster. Direct loads from memory were actually one of the 6502s strenghts. Now anything that required address registers... [1] [1] For non-6502-programmers: it had no address registers. You had to use pairs of 8bit memory words in the bottom 256 bytes of memory, addresed by an 8bit constant in the instruction. A bit like PDP-8 needing to used its in-instruction constant to address an low-memory word with the actual address in it. And yes, Z80 and 6502 are both little-endian, not just bit numbering, but actual memory arrangement of 16 data. Read low 8 bits first, process, then get high 8 bits. Done so because of address calculation carry. > -- Pete Wilson > 6502 .eqv. 8080? Pshaw! 8008, more like. Actually fairly equivlent in effect. Missing instruction power made up with efficent memory access and so less clock cycles. P.S. I learned Assembler in the row: Z80, 6809, 6502, 68000, 8088 Of all the 8bit ones 6809 was the nicest, roughly PDP-11 level. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery Article 5080 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Code the 6502?? Shoot me first! References: <6ulmnbke3r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6ubsnyobp2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 08 Jun 2001 16:37:26 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 8 Jun 2001 16:55:45 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5080 Mark Garrett wrote: >> the 6502 has a special addressing mode referred to >> as zero page addressing Neil Franklin writes: > Above was actually "zero page indirect non indexed" mode. A processor > with over 10 address modes... The 6502 (NMOS) did NOT have a zero page indirect non-indexed mode. It had: zero page (non-indirect, non-indexed) LDA VAR zero page indexed LDA VAR,X or LDA VAR,Y zero page indexed indirect LDA (VAR,X) zero page indirect indexed LDA (VAR),Y The CMOS 6502 added: zero page indirect LDA (VAR) All above examples requiring that the address of VAR be in the range $0000..$00ff. Also, note that with ZP indexed and ZP indexed indirect, the indexing will not wrap to the high byte of the address. In other words, for "LDA VAR,X" if VAR is $CA and X contains $7E, the effective address is $0048, not $0148. Similarly, for "LDA (VAR,X) under the same circumstances, the effective address is the contents of locations $0048 and $0049. Also, for all ZP indirect modes, if the base ZP address is $00FF, the indirect address comes from $00FF and $0000, not $00FF and $0100. On the NMOS 6502, the same problem (no carry from low to high byte of address) also happens for the absolute indirect address mode, e.g., LDA ($45FF) will fetch the EA from $45FF and $4500. On the CMOS 6502 this was changed for absolute indirect (but not ZP indirect), so that example would fetch the EA from $45FF and $4600. >> The was a follow-on from the 6502, it didn't go >> far and I never programmed one. > > 65816. And it did go far, if you count embedded variants including the Super Nintendo game system. Article: 116014 of alt.folklore.computers Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!p01!news2.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: Kevin Savetz Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm,alt.folklore.computers Mail-Copies-To: poster Subject: Machine Language For Beginners book on the Web User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 25 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:30:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.31.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news2.west.cox.net 1047839445 68.6.31.103 (Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:30:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:30:45 EST Organization: Cox Communications Xref: dfw-artgen alt.folklore.computers:116014 The team at AtariArchives.org is pleased to announce that the full text of the best-selling book _Machine Language For Beginners_ by Richard Mansfield is now online at http://www.atariarchives.org/mlb/ Published in 1983 by Compute! Books, this classic book shows BASIC programmers how to program in 6502 machine language. It includes examples and program code for Atari, Apple 2, PET/CBM, VIC-20, and Commodore 64 computers. This is the 12th classic computing book available at AtariArchives.org. Like all books at the site, it has been made available by permission of the copyright holder. --Kevin Savetz -- Kevin Savetz Curator of Classic Computer Magazine Archive - http://www.atarimagazines.com & Atariarchives.org - http://www.atariarchives.org Moderator of news:comp.sys.atari.announce - Atari computer news -- Kevin Savetz - http://www.savetz.com/contact/ Curator of Classic Computer Magazine Archive - www.atarimagazines.com & Atariarchives.org - www.atariarchives.org Moderator of news:comp.sys.atari.announce - Atari computer news