Article: 21311 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 References: Subject: Re: AMOS and TOPS-10, RT-11? Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.207.204.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1061321676 12.207.204.17 (Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:34:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:34:36 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:34:36 GMT Xref: dfw-artgen alt.folklore.computers:134169 alt.sys.pdp10:21311 alt.sys.pdp11:8456 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vk4691itm5pfd4@corp.supernews.com... > Possibly one for BAH (or Megan Gentry perhaps) > > I've recently installed Mike Noel's Alpha Micro emulator - seems like a nice > piece of software as emulators go! > > I'm very struck by how much like TOPS-10 the user experience of its > operating system (AMOS) is - it feels like a 'miniature TOPS-10', with > the obvious difference that there's no virtual memory and a fixed number > of jobs run in fixed address spaces! I've yet to "look under the hood" > to see what it looks like inside. > > Right from the dot prompt, the PPNs, the help system, and the options to > some of the commands, it all feels VERY 'TOPSy'... (or, I guess, RT-11, > but I've less experience of that). > > So the question is - what's the genesis of Alpha Micro? Were they ex-DEC > people? - I know one of their early machines was based on the WD 3-chip > set like the LSI-11...? I first (and last) saw the AM-100 in the Pasadena Byte shop about 1977 or 1978. That was also the time when TOPS-10, and also some PDP-11 OS's were popular. Other popular OS were IBM's MVS, and HP/2000 TSB. The idea of running a program by typing its name seemed new to me. For TOPS-10 you had to RUN or R a program. -- glen Article: 21327 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail From: mikroa@netcom.com (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.alpha-micro Subject: Re: AMOS and TOPS-10, RT-11? Date: 21 Aug 2003 21:11:06 -0600 Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 108 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1061521866 5308 166.84.1.2 (22 Aug 2003 03:11:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:11:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Clueful-responder: echo "never-reply+panix=com" | tr "-+=" "+@." Xref: dfw-artgen alt.folklore.computers:134409 alt.sys.pdp10:21327 alt.sys.pdp11:8461 alt.sys.alpha-micro:1844 In article , Glen Herrmannsfeldt wrote: > >"Pete Fenelon" wrote in message >news:vk4691itm5pfd4@corp.supernews.com... >> Possibly one for BAH (or Megan Gentry perhaps) >> >> I've recently installed Mike Noel's Alpha Micro emulator - seems like a >nice >> piece of software as emulators go! >> >> I'm very struck by how much like TOPS-10 the user experience of its >> operating system (AMOS) is - it feels like a 'miniature TOPS-10', with >> the obvious difference that there's no virtual memory and a fixed number >> of jobs run in fixed address spaces! I've yet to "look under the hood" >> to see what it looks like inside. >> >> Right from the dot prompt, the PPNs, the help system, and the options to >> some of the commands, it all feels VERY 'TOPSy'... (or, I guess, RT-11, >> but I've less experience of that). >> >> So the question is - what's the genesis of Alpha Micro? Were they ex-DEC >> people? - I know one of their early machines was based on the WD 3-chip >> set like the LSI-11...? The original developers, Dick Wilcox, Rich Notari, and John French, worked on the original product soon after MITS released their 8800. I don't remember exactly when, but they worked out of Wilcox' garage and French's "The Computer Mart" in Orange, CA. Wilcox did the OS, BASIC, and original hardware. Notari did the WD-16 microcode which was a recoding of the LSI-11 chip set. There was an optional "single-and-a-half" 48 bit floating point capability programmed into the third (fourth?) prom but few, if any, declined the option. Before settling on the AM-100 name, it was called the sixteen/eight [16 bit processor on an 8 bit (S-100) buss] and before that, it was called the Sweet 16. I don't think any sixteen/eight or sweet 16 labeled boards made it into customer systems. The company name is Alpha Microsystems, refered to as Alpha below, hence the AM- product designator. They were Alpha long before there was a Dec Alpha. PPNs are in split 16-bit format, so the largest PPN is 377,377. There are other accomodations for the 16 bit environment shoehorned onto the S-100 buss. The WD-16 processor is a re-microcoded LSI-11 chipset. The instruction set has the feel of a PDP-11. While 16 bit, the original CPU was a two-card S100 board set connected at the top with a flat ribbon cable. Real time clock was provided by a 60Hz 12 volt line from the power supply. Prototype boards were usually wire wrapped, and (initially) production boards were hand-soldered in various facilities in Irvine or Santa Ana. Originally limited to 64k, bank switching in 16k chunks was added later. Playing around, the smallest monitor I could get was 16k which allowed for three banks of 48k. Attempts to add a fourth bank and user broke the 16K monitor bank, making it 32K and allowing for six 32K users. There was no high seg equivalent, but sharable, reentrant programs could be loaded into system memory during boot. My above test case had no sharable programs except when I broke the monitor size. Alpha Micro then developed a proprietary 16 bit version of the S-100 buss. Their original 2-card, 2MhZ boar set was replaced by a double height 3.3mHz board. None of these were sold without the floating point option. This board was called the AM-100/T. Still limited to 64K, it supported bank switching in 1K increments. Later, Alpha switched to 680x0 processors and the VME buss, though the initial 68000 board was compatible in form (but ran at 8mHz) with their proprietary S-100 extension. They used a custom assembler reminiscent of a PDP-11 macro assembler. They changed mnemonics, operand orders, and (I think) addressing mode inidicators to make easier for WD-16 programmers to adapt to the new system. This of course made it harder to go to a pure 680x0 environment but Alpha's always been proprietary. Their latest product is a 2.4gHz AMD system that emulates the 680x0 instruction set and has some native code. Despite the emulation, it runs faster than their fastest 680x0 offering. >I first (and last) saw the AM-100 in the Pasadena Byte shop about 1977 or >1978. That was also the time when TOPS-10, and also some PDP-11 OS's were >popular. Other popular OS were IBM's MVS, and HP/2000 TSB. Alpha's original application language is based on BASIC. It included HP's string indexing mechanism, as well as the string manipulation functions of other BASIC languages. Alpha's BASIC strings can also be indexed with negative numbers, allowing strings to be manipulated from right to left (the rightmost position was [-1,-1], etc.) The second operand can also specify a length (and direction) instead of position if the operands are separated by a semicolon. No matter how strings are indexed, they are rendered in their original left-to-right orientation. I don't remember if HP (or any other) BASIC had these notational extensions, nor did I think to try these out in HP Eloquence when I worked for an HP shop a few years back. Like HP Eloquence, which runs on HP-3000 and HP-9000 machines, Alpha's BASIC programs (or at least in the AlphaBASIC+ incantation) can run on different Alpha architectures. Instead of AlphaBASIC, my father sUggested the name BASIC Business Oriented Language, or BASBOL. I've added alt.sys.alpha-micro to the newsgroup list so others with better memories can correct the errors I've made above. >The idea of running a program by typing its name seemed new to me. For >TOPS-10 you had to RUN or R a program. The patch BAH mentioned (to remove the R) was also seen on PDP-8 (TSS-8). Well, not the same patch, of course, but something very similar.