Article 1131 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newshost.marcam.com!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jebright From: jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James R Ebright) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 24 Sep 1995 03:27:19 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36107 alt.sys.pdp10:1131 In article <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: >I received an interesting rumour from the mill (Rumour mill, not DEC's >Maynard, Mass mill) that not only is Compuserve still actively using the >DECsystem-10 in daily affairs, but that they had bought DEC's Jupiter >project (cancelled around 1983). Yes to one. No to two. However, I would hardly call it a DECsystem-10. It is 10 architecture hardware running on a custom opsys which has as an ancestor a very very early version of TOPS-10. > In addition to that little tidbit, I heard that they have been scratch- >building their own -10s. Could it be that the Jupiter actually went >into (limited/private) production after all??? No. CSNI (Compu-Serv Network Incorporated, their name at the time) had a Tuscon facility which was building a 10-look-alike. It was cancelled before it could be completed. It was cancelled before the Jupiter. C$ now uses Systems Concepts' 10 look-alikes, I think. I left a long time ago but that is what I think I heard from friends who now run much of the company. -- A/~~\A 'moo2u from osu' Jim Ebright e-mail: ebright@bronze.coil.com ((0 0))_______ "'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean \ / the \ we watched the government - not the other way around." (--)\ OSU | - Bill Stewart Article 1138 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!emory!metro.atlanta.com!news.sprintlink.net!dns.plano.net!news From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 25 Sep 1995 02:09:46 GMT Organization: Canine Computer Center Lines: 12 Message-ID: <44531a$5k1@dns.plano.net> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: aux31.plano.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-URL: news:442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36175 alt.sys.pdp10:1138 jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James R Ebright) wrote: >[Compuserve uses] 10 architecture hardware running on a custom opsys which has >as an ancestor a very very early version of TOPS-10. > Well, the compuserve ID, which consists of two octal numbers separated by a comma, is just an old DEC PPN number in disguise. To lo= g in to the DEC-10, one used this same type of number. I know cause I did a lot of logging in during the 1970's. Also, I heard that Compuserve used some DEC-10 clones, some made by a company in California called Foonly Computers. Anyone have any= information on this? Article 1140 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: doug@ss2.digex.net (Doug Humphrey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 25 Sep 1995 05:20:55 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA: 800-969-9090 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <445s9n$6pv@ss2.digex.net> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ss2.digex.net Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36204 alt.sys.pdp10:1140 Bad News - No Jupiter. The CompuServe people (almost put a $ in there but decided to be nice) basicly did things with Systems Concepts for their box, and maybe somerthing with Foonly folks... othere cn comment on that stuff. But, noi Jupitert (I am on a box that has no active delete key!) I am looking at a binder marked "DECsystem 4050 Sales Training Seminar" in chocolot brown, buyt it is nothing but the binder... sad, sad, sad. Doug In article <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: >I received an interesting rumour from the mill (Rumour mill, not DEC's >Maynard, Mass mill) that not only is Compuserve still actively using the >DECsystem-10 in daily affairs, but that they had bought DEC's Jupiter >project (cancelled around 1983). > > In addition to that little tidbit, I heard that they have been scratch- >building their own -10s. Could it be that the Jupiter actually went >into (limited/private) production after all??? > > Is this true? Can it possibly be? > > Confirm, deny, or flame appropriately.... > >Carl R. Friend > > Article 1148 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!decwrl!genmagic!goonsquad.spies.com!piem3.atg.apple.com!user From: baum@apple.com (Allen J. Baum) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:07:06 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: piem3.atg.apple.com X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+ Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36302 alt.sys.pdp10:1148 There are/were 3 companies that make clones: Foonley (now defunct) was a spinoff from the Superfoonley project at the Stanford AI Lab. They got ARPA funding to build a processor 10x faster than the KA-10. When the project folded, DEC picked up the design (and a designer or two) and built the KL-10. The KL-10 built upon the Superfoonley design, but there were differences (ECL vs. TTL, etc). Foonley built several models of their clones. Systems Concepts was a company founded by some of the old hackers from the MIT AI Labs. They've built paging boxes for the KA-10 (They may have been the first, and its what was used for the Tenex OS), and a lot of other hardware projects. They are still making them, as far as I know. The most recent clone maker is XKL, of Seattle. XKL was founded by Len Bosack of Cisco, after he left. I don't know whether they've delivered product yet, but you can see pictures of it in their web pages (whose ptr I have conveniently lost). -- ******************************************************* * Allen J. Baum * * Apple Computer Inc. MS 305-3B * * 1 Infinite Loop * * Cupertino, CA 95014 * ******************************************************* Article 1151 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 In-Reply-To: "Carl R. Friend"'s message of 22 Sep 1995 19:02:34 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 02:00:55 GMT Lines: 22 Sender: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36315 alt.sys.pdp10:1151 In article <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: >I received an interesting rumour from the mill (Rumour mill, not DEC's >Maynard, Mass mill) that not only is Compuserve still actively using the >DECsystem-10 in daily affairs, but that they had bought DEC's Jupiter project >(cancelled around 1983). Never heard that one. Not even from my insider friends at DEC 36-bit Engineering. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it's highly unlikely. >In addition to that little tidbit, I heard that they have been scratch- >building their own -10s. Could it be that the Jupiter actually went into >(limited/private) production after all??? Now *that* is true: They licensed the Systems Concepts design from Levitt and Nelson, because SC couldn't curn 'em out fast enough. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1153 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!cronkite.cisco.com!cronkite!billw From: billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 26 Sep 1995 05:03:58 GMT Organization: cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <44531a$5k1@dns.plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: puli.cisco.com In-reply-to: Charles Richmond's message of 25 Sep 1995 02:09:46 GMT Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36328 alt.sys.pdp10:1153 Also, I heard that Compuserve used some DEC-10 clones, some made by a company in California called Foonly Computers. Anyone have any information on this? FOONLEY had a couple models of PDP-10 clones. I believe that they were generally KA or KI clones, sometimes with BBN pager clones. The Foonly F1 was faster than a KL by virtue of being hardwired instead of microcoded, or so I heard. One got a lot of use in some early hollywood computer graphics efforts. I don't think there were very many. The F2 was a small pdp-10 clone (one or two 19" racks.) I don't know if there was ever an F3. The F4 was a faster F2, with ethernet and stuff. I spent some time adding TCP to TENEX for use on F2s and F4s. The F5 was supposed to be a tiny version of the F4 (as in multiple F5s would fit in a 19" rack, or a single F5 would fit by your desk.) I don't think the F5 ever made it to production, but it was supposed to show up in the early to mid 1980s. Other PDP-10 clones include the Systems Concept SC30-M (and related?), a nice system that left a lot of spare room in a 22 inch rack. SC started out doing things like IBM Channel adaptors for dec equipment, and I think the SC30M could talk to IBM disks. Lots of people were interested in the SC30M, which was a little faster than a KL, but SC seemed to have trouble pricing and producing the machine in "production" quantities. Mid to late 1980s. And of course there is the new XKL machine. In addition to having a wide variety of PDP-10 clones, Compuserve did some work to improve the cost-of-ownership of "real" dec-10 iron. For a modest fee (well, comparitively speaking), they'd come out and replace the old linear power supplies of your KL10 with modern switching power supplies, increasing power efficiency from about 30% to 80+%... BillW Article 1153 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!cronkite.cisco.com!cronkite!billw From: billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 26 Sep 1995 05:03:58 GMT Organization: cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <44531a$5k1@dns.plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: puli.cisco.com In-reply-to: Charles Richmond's message of 25 Sep 1995 02:09:46 GMT Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36328 alt.sys.pdp10:1153 Also, I heard that Compuserve used some DEC-10 clones, some made by a company in California called Foonly Computers. Anyone have any information on this? FOONLEY had a couple models of PDP-10 clones. I believe that they were generally KA or KI clones, sometimes with BBN pager clones. The Foonly F1 was faster than a KL by virtue of being hardwired instead of microcoded, or so I heard. One got a lot of use in some early hollywood computer graphics efforts. I don't think there were very many. The F2 was a small pdp-10 clone (one or two 19" racks.) I don't know if there was ever an F3. The F4 was a faster F2, with ethernet and stuff. I spent some time adding TCP to TENEX for use on F2s and F4s. The F5 was supposed to be a tiny version of the F4 (as in multiple F5s would fit in a 19" rack, or a single F5 would fit by your desk.) I don't think the F5 ever made it to production, but it was supposed to show up in the early to mid 1980s. Other PDP-10 clones include the Systems Concept SC30-M (and related?), a nice system that left a lot of spare room in a 22 inch rack. SC started out doing things like IBM Channel adaptors for dec equipment, and I think the SC30M could talk to IBM disks. Lots of people were interested in the SC30M, which was a little faster than a KL, but SC seemed to have trouble pricing and producing the machine in "production" quantities. Mid to late 1980s. And of course there is the new XKL machine. In addition to having a wide variety of PDP-10 clones, Compuserve did some work to improve the cost-of-ownership of "real" dec-10 iron. For a modest fee (well, comparitively speaking), they'd come out and replace the old linear power supplies of your KL10 with modern switching power supplies, increasing power efficiency from about 30% to 80+%... BillW Article 1158 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!onramp.net!eclectic From: eclectic@onramp.net (ECC User) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 26 Sep 1995 10:46:59 GMT Organization: Eclectic Computing Concepts Lines: 41 Distribution: world Message-ID: <448ln3$33p@news.onramp.net> Reply-To: eclectic@onramp.net NNTP-Posting-Host: stemmons09.onramp.net In message , billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: >I don't know if there was ever an F3. The F4 was a faster F2, with >ethernet and stuff. I spent some time adding TCP to TENEX for use on >F2s and F4s. > >The F5 was supposed to be a tiny version of the F4 (as in multiple F5s >would fit in a 19" rack, or a single F5 would fit by your desk.) I don't >think the F5 ever made it to production, but it was supposed to show up >in the early to mid 1980s. > >BillW ARPA put up some money for Foonley to build F5s for SRI -- this at about the time that the workstation was coming into being (Xerox Dandelion/Dolphin/Dorado, Three Rivers Perq, BBN Jericho). The thinking was that they could be personal Lisp Machines that could also run other things. I piggy-backed on the buy to get a TENEX machine for what was at the time the Naval Ocean Systems Center in San Diego, figuring it would be cheaper than all the time we were buying from BBN and ISI. It took forever (2 years? trying to preserve the money over government fiscal year boundaries), but we finally received what was tagged a Foonley 4/5 in (I think) 1983. It had, among other interesting features, a memory-mapped graphics display which I don't think that anyone ever used. Foonley wasn't like DEC in terms of support -- while the Foonley had a built-in telephone connection for remote diagnostics and microcode replacement, more significant repairs involved getting someone to come down to San Diego from the converted elementary school in Mountain View. Fortunately, our system manager had a nice sailboat, and the offer of a weekend on the water was frequently sufficient to entice a one-day support visit. Dan Lynch once looked at our machine room, holding the Foonley, two VAX 11/730s, one Perq, a BBN Bitgraph terminal and similar oddities and pronounced it the greatest collection of bad choices he'd ever seen. We somehow got work done, however. I'm glad we didn't show him the STARAN in the other building. bob bechtel Article 1159 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!a2i!thales.nmia.com!socorro.kanda.placitas.nm.us!bob From: bob@socorro.kanda.placitas.nm.us (Bob Knight) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: 26 Sep 1995 13:10:28 GMT Organization: New Mexico Internet Access Lines: 17 Message-ID: <448u44$d97@thales.nmia.com> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: socorro.nmia.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.7.8.0) Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36366 alt.sys.pdp10:1159 In article , Allen J. Baum wrote: >Foonley (now defunct) was a spinoff from the Superfoonley project at the >Stanford AI Lab. They got ARPA funding to build a processor 10x faster >than the KA-10. When the project folded, DEC picked up the design (and a >designer or two) and built the KL-10. The KL-10 built upon the >Superfoonley design, but there were differences (ECL vs. TTL, etc). >Foonley built several models of their clones. Foonly also built the F3, delivering several (five?...memory fails me) F3's to Tymshare in the 1980-82 timeframe. The Kestrel Institute had at least one, as did CCRMA. I think SRI (CSL?) had one, also. The F4, a follow-on, was never delivered AFAIK. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- bob@indirect.com P.O. Box 917 (505) 867-5863 (voice) Placitas, NM 87043 (505) 867-5880 (FAX) Article 1160 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!ai-lab!usenet From: tk@ai.mit.edu (Tom Knight) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Foonly F-1 Date: 26 Sep 1995 15:59:31 GMT Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: entropy.ai.mit.edu In-reply-to: billw@puli.cisco.com's message of 26 Sep 1995 05:03:58 GMT Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36374 alt.sys.pdp10:1160 >>> "-" == William writes: -> The Foonly F1 was faster than a KL by virtue of being hardwired -> instead of microcoded, or so I heard. One got a lot of use in some -> early hollywood computer graphics efforts. I don't think there -> were very many. That's an understatement. There was precisely one, wirewrapped kludge, done with low impedance (68 ohm I think?) twisted pair. The wire insulation was so thin, to get the low impedance, that the wire cut through at the slightest provocation. I don't think the machine was ever very robust, especially with cooldown-warmup cycles. But the logic design was better than anything DEC put out. I think the graphics in one of the early Disney efforts in the "I'm trapped in a video game" genre (TRON?) was done on this machine, which was located at Information International Inc. Article 1161 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.his.com!user From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:33:29 -0500 Organization: New Dominion Software Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ehrice.his.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36412 alt.sys.pdp10:1161 In article , baum@apple.com (Allen J. Baum) wrote: > There are/were 3 companies that make clones: > > Foonley (now defunct) was a spinoff from the Superfoonley project at the > Stanford AI Lab. They got ARPA funding to build a processor 10x faster > than the KA-10. When the project folded, DEC picked up the design (and a > designer or two) and built the KL-10. The KL-10 built upon the > Superfoonley design, but there were differences (ECL vs. TTL, etc). > Foonley built several models of their clones. > ... Glad you brought this up. Where did the name "Foonley" (or "Foonly," as I've seen it before) come from? Was it someone's surname? An in-joke that goes right over my head? Article 1163 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!shell1.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (J.Smith and J.Snyder) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 27 Sep 1995 11:06:11 -0700 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 14 Message-ID: <44c3qj$d9b@shell1.best.com> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <44531a$5k1@dns.plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell1.best.com Summary: Tymshare used F3 Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36511 alt.sys.pdp10:1163 In article , William wrote: >The F2 was a small pdp-10 clone (one or two 19" racks.) >I don't know if there was ever an F3. Tymshare had several F3 system; I have the console (lights and switches) from one in my bedroom. They came in two 19-inch rack; one for the wirewrapped CPU and 2 SMD disks, the other for the Kenedy tape drive and more SMD disks. Microcode loaded from 1/2-inch tape only. A little bit slower than a KI. Carl can provide more details. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran (and our cats). See http://www.inwap.com/ for details, including info on "ReBoot" and PDP-10. Article 1164 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ddyer From: ddyer@netcom.com (Dave Dyer) Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Reply-To: ddyer@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:34:20 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: ddyer@netcom6.netcom.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36517 alt.sys.pdp10:1164 : Foonley (now defunct) was a spinoff from the Superfoonley project at the : Stanford AI Lab. They got ARPA funding to build a processor 10x faster : than the KA-10. When the project folded, DEC picked up the design (and a : designer or two) and built the KL-10. The KL-10 built upon the : Superfoonley design, but there were differences (ECL vs. TTL, etc). : Foonley built several models of their clones. The KL is more properly described as a compromised cripple of the Superfoonly design - the primary compromise being that the I and M boxes were merged to save money, at the cost of making the machine slower. The original Superfoonly design was TTL. The one and only Superfoonly that was actually built (here at Information International) was redesigned using ECL 10K, by 3/4 of the original design team. The Foonly was more than twice as fast as a KL-10. Superfoonly required a console computer to boot it up, load it's microcode, and so on. The original concept was to use a PDP-11, but the expedient thing turned out to be to use a KA-10 as the console computer (as an interim measure) and eventually to build a cheap pdp-10 out of 2901s and use it as the console computer. Foonly Inc. never made any more Superfoonlys, or delivered a real console computer to triple-i, but the design for the console computer became the core of Foonly Inc's business producing PDP-10 clones. -- --- My home page: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/dd/ddyer/home.html or try http://www.triple-i.com/~ddyer/home.html Article 1166 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!simtel!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) In-Reply-To: baum@apple.com's message of Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:07:06 -0700 Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 23:30:21 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: alderson@netcom18.netcom.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36540 alt.sys.pdp10:1166 In article baum@apple.com (Allen J. Baum) writes: >There are/were 3 companies that make clones: >Systems Concepts was a company founded by some of the old hackers from the MIT >AI Labs. They've built paging boxes for the KA-10 (They may have been the >first, and its what was used for the Tenex OS), and a lot of other hardware >projects. Actually, Mike Levitt is a Berkeley grad. He started the company, and then hired Stewart Nelson away from MIT. One of their major products was the SA-10, a device which allowed the connection of IBM bus-and-tag devices to the I/O bus on a -10; the original SC-30M at Stanford started out with no Massbus channel, only an SA channel. Fortunately, we had an extra string of single-density 3380 disks from a new 4381 sitting in the room; Stu Grossman made them work with the Mars. The TENEX pager was created by Bolt, Beranek, and Newman of Cambridge. I never heard that Mike and Stew had anything to do with it. >They are still making them, as far as I know. Maybe. >The most recent clone maker is XKL, of Seattle. XKL was founded by Len Bosack >of Cisco, after he left. I don't know whether they've delivered product yet, >but you can see pictures of it in their web pages (whose ptr I have >conveniently lost). They're a UWashington site; we're still working on our own. I have other things of higher priority on my plate, like producing a new JSYS manual. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1167 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!ablecom!ns2.mainstreet.net!ftp.netgate.net!ng63.netgate.net!user From: rtm@netgate.net (Bob Martin N6MZV) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:12:04 -0700 Organization: NetGate Communications Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <448u44$d97@thales.nmia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ng63.netgate.net Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36559 alt.sys.pdp10:1167 I think the old ditty went something like this- A foonly is not a 360, A foonly is more like a 10. A foonly is faster than lightning, So I'll get a foonly, but when? ...When one of the memory bay linear power supplies in our KA10 at UCI crapped out, we replaced it with a Heathkit battery eliminator- which sat on top of the bay and worked quite well for a few weeks. Great machine. -- Bob Martin N6MZV * rtm@netgate.net Article 1168 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:44:18 -0700 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: keil In-Reply-To: Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36562 alt.sys.pdp10:1168 On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Richard M. Alderson III wrote: > One of their major products was the SA-10, a device which allowed the > connection of IBM bus-and-tag devices to the I/O bus on a -10; the original > SC-30M at Stanford started out with no Massbus channel, only an SA channel. > Fortunately, we had an extra string of single-density 3380 disks from a new > 4381 sitting in the room; Stu Grossman made them work with the Mars. Really? The prototype SC30M used the SA10 for tapes only; disks were controlled by an FA10. I wrote the TOPS-20 FA10 code. I'm surprised to hear that the Stanford SC30M was shipped without Massbus channels; as far I knew no SC30Ms were ever shipped using SA/FA channels. The main lossage with SA/FA channels is that the world had changed. IBM peripherals were no longer price leaders. Worse, it was not possible to poll SA/FA devices the way you could poll Massbus devices; if you changed the system's I/O configuration you had to build a new kernel. This was a big loss for TOPS-20 sites. > The TENEX pager was created by Bolt, Beranek, and Newman of Cambridge. I never > heard that Mike and Stew had anything to do with it. The pagers on the AI, ML, and DM KAs were not BBN pagers and I believe that Stew Nelson helped build them. -- Mark -- DoD #0105, R90/6 pilot, FAX: (206) 685-4045 ICBM: N 47 39'35" W 122 18'39" Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 1169 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!info-server.bbn.com!clements From: clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: 28 Sep 1995 14:00:49 GMT Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <44e9qh$3gq@info-server.bbn.com> References: <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lion.bbn.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36591 alt.sys.pdp10:1169 In article alderson@netcom.com writes: > The TENEX pager was created by Bolt, Beranek, and Newman of Cambridge. > I never heard that Mike and Stew had anything to do with it. Right. The BBN Pager was a one-bay addition and a set of CPU mods to the KA-10. It was designed and built by BBN-ers. The most common PDP-10 configuration on the ARPANET for some time was a KA-10, a BBN pager and a Systems Concepts SA-10 for the disks and tapes, running BBN-TENEX. >Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary >alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Bob Clements, K1BC, clements@bbn.com, +1 617 USE K1BC Article 1170 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ddyer From: ddyer@netcom.com (Dave Dyer) Subject: Re: Foonly F-1 Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Reply-To: ddyer@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:05:32 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: ddyer@netcom6.netcom.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36626 alt.sys.pdp10:1170 In article you wrote: : >>> "-" == William writes: : -> The Foonly F1 was faster than a KL by virtue of being hardwired : -> instead of microcoded, or so I heard. One got a lot of use in some : -> early hollywood computer graphics efforts. I don't think there : -> were very many. : That's an understatement. There was precisely one, wirewrapped : kludge, done with low impedance (68 ohm I think?) twisted pair. The : wire insulation was so thin, to get the low impedance, that the wire : cut through at the slightest provocation. I don't think the machine : was ever very robust, especially with cooldown-warmup cycles. But the : logic design was better than anything DEC put out. I think the : graphics in one of the early Disney efforts in the "I'm trapped in a : video game" genre (TRON?) was done on this machine, which was located : at Information International Inc. The F1 was microcoded, but the microcode was extremely "flat", 120 bits wide if I remember correctly. Most of the "everyday" instructions executed in one cycle (which was blazing fast at 100ns). Crucial parts, such as effective address calculation, were effectively hardwired, so the microcode just did a "hang until complete". There were a lot of twisted pair, and the logic pages were huge: four of them each about about .75m x 1.50m --- My home page: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/dd/ddyer/home.html or try http://www.triple-i.com/~ddyer/home.html -- --- My home page: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/dd/ddyer/home.html or try http://www.triple-i.com/~ddyer/home.html Article 1171 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ddyer From: ddyer@netcom.com (Dave Dyer) Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Reply-To: ddyer@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:10:35 GMT Lines: 25 Sender: ddyer@netcom6.netcom.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36627 alt.sys.pdp10:1171 : > There are/were 3 companies that make clones: : > : > Foonley (now defunct) was a spinoff from the Superfoonley project at : the : > Stanford AI Lab. They got ARPA funding to build a processor 10x faster : > than the KA-10. When the project folded, DEC picked up the design (and : a : > designer or two) and built the KL-10. The KL-10 built upon the : > Superfoonley design, but there were differences (ECL vs. TTL, etc). : > Foonley built several models of their clones. : > ... : Glad you brought this up. Where did the name "Foonley" (or "Foonly," as : I've seen it before) come from? Was it someone's surname? An in-joke that : goes right over my head? The story Phil Pettit (designer of the M-box) told me was that it was the result of an editing accident, doing a global search and replace of FOO for something else. Using TECO. -- --- My home page: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/dd/ddyer/home.html or try http://www.triple-i.com/~ddyer/home.html Article 1173 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!usenet From: Vance Socci Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO on non DEC platforms Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 13:57:00 PDT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <43kpm6$nku@darkstar.bos.locus.com> <446qld$oto@info-server.bbn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vsocci.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Xref: shellx.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1173 alt.folklore.computers:36638 In Article<446qld$oto@info-server.bbn.com>, write: > Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!info-server.bbn.com!clements > clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) wrote: > > And on another point, someone recently spouted a silly rumor that > a "JRST @." would hang a KA-10 and asked for an old-timer to refute it. > I (project engineer for the KA-10) refute it, of course. I posted to > that effect a week or so ago, but posts from here weren't getting out > for a while. > > > > /Rcc > > Bob Clements, K1BC, clements@bbn.com, (w) +1 617 USE K1BC It might interest PDP-10 fans everywhere to note that while the microcode for the KL-10 was being debugged on the wirewrap #2 machine, I discovered that JRST @. indeed hung the system . . . Judd Leonard had it fixed a couple of hours later. Then I hit him with XCT ., and that also hung the system: didn't check for PIs in progress. He fixed this a couple of hours later too. Its just hard to keep a good bug down. I have a theory that every architecture has a canonical set of associated bugs. If someone could manage to document these things, then the next machine designed in that architecture could be debugged that much more quickly. Somehow this never seems to happen though . . . /evs /evs Article 1174 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!usenet From: Vance Socci Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 14:03:38 PDT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <448ln3$33p@news.onramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vsocci.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage In Article<448ln3$33p@news.onramp.net>, write: > Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!onramp.net!eclectic > From: eclectic@onramp.net (ECC User) > Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 > Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 > Date: 26 Sep 1995 10:46:59 GMT > Organization: Eclectic Computing Concepts > Lines: 41 > Distribution: world > Message-ID: <448ln3$33p@news.onramp.net> > Reply-To: eclectic@onramp.net > NNTP-Posting-Host: stemmons09.onramp.net > > In message , billw@puli.cisco.com (William > ) writes: > > >I don't know if there was ever an F3. The F4 was a faster F2, with > >ethernet and stuff. I spent some time adding TCP to TENEX for use on > >F2s and F4s. > > > >The F5 was supposed to be a tiny version of the F4 (as in multiple F5s > >would fit in a 19" rack, or a single F5 would fit by your desk.) I don't > >think the F5 ever made it to production, but it was supposed to show up > >in the early to mid 1980s. > > > >BillW > The F3 was a modifed F2 made for Tymshare, Inc. circa 1979. It had special microcode to allow it to interface to Tymnet, and microcode to make it look approximately like a KL-10. (I finished off and debugged the paging and trap microcode, and implemented the missing instructions which the F2 lacked like ADJBP and DMUL). /evs Article 1177 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) In-Reply-To: Mark Crispin's message of Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:44:18 -0700 Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 19:59:45 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: alderson@netcom20.netcom.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36772 alt.sys.pdp10:1177 In article Mark Crispin writes: >On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >>the original SC-30M at Stanford started out with no Massbus channel, only an >>SA channel. Fortunately, we had an extra string of single-density 3380 disks >>from a new 4381 sitting in the room; Stu Grossman made them work with the >>Mars. >Really? Really. >The prototype SC30M used the SA10 for tapes only; disks were controlled by an >FA10. I wrote the TOPS-20 FA10 code. I'm surprised to hear that the Stanford >SC30M was shipped without Massbus channels; as far I knew no SC30Ms were ever >shipped using SA/FA channels. What Fred delivered to us the night before Hallowe'en, 1985, was the original prototype. The MI channel was not delivered for 8 months; until then, we had to use the 3380s. That's why Stu had to do the work he did. Mike certainly advertised the availability of SA-attached tapes for his boxes at the one DEXPO I know they attended (i. e., I ran into them there). That was Anaheim, 1986. >>The TENEX pager was created by Bolt, Beranek, and Newman of Cambridge. I >>never heard that Mike and Stew had anything to do with it. >The pagers on the AI, ML, and DM KAs were not BBN pagers and I believe that >Stew Nelson helped build them. Ah, there's the confusion: The *ITS* pager =/= the *BBN TENEX* pager. Now that's not surprising. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1183 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: 30 Sep 1995 10:26:38 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 6 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <44jk2u$hlj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36849 alt.sys.pdp10:1183 I just ran across a letter written to Tony Wachs (TW) in 1985 from a Peter Samson, Director of Marketing, Systems Concepts. In it is a document titled "Fifty Questons and Answers about the Systems Concepts SC-30M" and a chart titled "36-bit Product Evolution". Are these worthy of archive? /BAH Article 1189 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Divide-bug war story Date: 1 Oct 1995 09:22:59 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 12 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <44m4nj$av5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: On Sep 30, 1995, Mark Crispin wrote: > >I thought this was in dividing by SETZ (negative zero). Yup. That's right. I'm beginning to remember more. Jim's curiosity got the better of him and he decided to see what the KI did. Those results made him wonder what a KA did. After he tried it, I think he said that the KA "was the most right" of them all. /BAH Article 1199 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!btnet!news.insnet.net!news.netkonect.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!noc.near.net!das-news2.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!cmcl2!CS.Arizona.EDU!pimacc.pima.edu!vcooper From: VCooper@PimaCC.Pima.EDU (Vanya J. Cooper) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Message-ID: <1995Oct3.105122.12070@pimacc.pima.edu> Date: 3 Oct 95 10:51:22 -0700 References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Lines: 20 Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:37245 alt.sys.pdp10:1199 In article , ddyer@netcom.com (Dave Dyer) writes: > > : Glad you brought this up. Where did the name "Foonley" (or "Foonly," as > : I've seen it before) come from? Was it someone's surname? An in-joke that > : goes right over my head? > > The story Phil Pettit (designer of the M-box) told me was that it was > the result of an editing accident, doing a global search and replace > of FOO for something else. Using TECO. I heard somewhere that Foonley was the name signed on all the hardware prints for one of the CPUs, possibly the KA-10. Is this true? ..Vanya Vanya Jonathan Cooper (VJC) Pima Community College vcooper@pimacc.pima.edu District Central Information Technology http://pimacc.pima.edu/~vcooper/ 4905A East Broadway Blvd Voice: +1 520 748-4809 FAX:4677 Tucson, Arizona 85709-1280 USA Article 1206 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!apollo.albany.net!news1.cris.com!news From: Dick Maliska Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: 6 Oct 1995 13:24:15 GMT Organization: Countryside Software Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <453alv$b60@spectator.cris.com> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <1995Oct3.105122.12070@pimacc.pima.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crc1-fddi.cris.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2 (Windows; U; 16bit) Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:37526 alt.sys.pdp10:1206 Hmmm, after watching many of the plots actually being done (for the KL10), I recall the signature as being "S. Foonly". However, the mind fades after so many years. This was sort of left over after the conversion of the drawing package done by RDH, et al, at Stanford. Larry Rogers and I did the initial command line conversion for that package to operate with the Standard Vt05 Keyboard since there were no "bucky" or "double bucky" keys to use. Dave Gross did the actual drawing driver conversion for a large screen display and finally for the GT40 (or some variant) -- Regards, Dick Maliska (Rmaliska@cris.com) COUNTRYSIDE SOFTWARE SERVICES. (508) 692-3124 Hardware/Software Support, Networking and Application Development. (Snail Mail: 183 Concord Road; Westford, MA 01886) "Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand." Article 1207 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.his.com!user From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 14:04:08 -0500 Organization: New Dominion Software Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ehrice.his.com Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:37551 alt.sys.pdp10:1207 In article , macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) wrote: > Re the origin of "J. Foonly", wasn't JFN an opcode or a signal name or > something on the 10? Could JFN L or JFN L, or JFN LI be the origin of > J. Foonly? When I asked about this here recently, I received e-mail from rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) with the following explanation: It comes from the error diagnostic spat out by someone's pdp10 assembler; if you said "foo" to it, it would say "foo: nli" (not legal instruction). This became a sort of mantra. As part of a small group that makes jokes about "inpitUL" (pronounced "in-pi-TUHL" and which stands for "is not presently in the User List"), I find this entirely plausible. Article 1209 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!nwnews.wa.com!news1.halcyon.com!coho.halcyon.com!fbeast From: fbeast@coho.halcyon.com (R. Terry McCutchen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 clones (was: Compuserve and the DEC-10) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 7 Oct 1995 08:10:17 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus, Inc. - Professional Internet Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <455cl9$aro@news1.halcyon.com> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> <1995Oct3.105122.12070@pimacc.pima.edu> <009977CB.1DB48DA0@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: coho.halcyon.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:37606 alt.sys.pdp10:1209 I don't know the whole story {but I was part of the KL team for a while}. I do recall that FOONEY (or more precisely supper fooney) was the name of either the paging or cache mechanism (can't spell the "a" word). JFN was Job File Number (the thing used to handle files {and other items}) When you opened a file you did a GETJFN ac,,blk to get a small number to use to reference that file in the future. /s/ Terry