Article 1131 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newshost.marcam.com!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jebright From: jebright@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James R Ebright) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve and the DECsystem-10 Date: 24 Sep 1995 03:27:19 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <442j6n$gip@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: shellx.best.com alt.folklore.computers:36107 alt.sys.pdp10:1131 In article <43v18a$a63@cliff.swec.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: >I received an interesting rumour from the mill (Rumour mill, not DEC's >Maynard, Mass mill) that not only is Compuserve still actively using the >DECsystem-10 in daily affairs, but that they had bought DEC's Jupiter >project (cancelled around 1983). Yes to one. No to two. However, I would hardly call it a DECsystem-10. It is 10 architecture hardware running on a custom opsys which has as an ancestor a very very early version of TOPS-10. > In addition to that little tidbit, I heard that they have been scratch- >building their own -10s. Could it be that the Jupiter actually went >into (limited/private) production after all??? No. CSNI (Compu-Serv Network Incorporated, their name at the time) had a Tuscon facility which was building a 10-look-alike. It was cancelled before it could be completed. It was cancelled before the Jupiter. C$ now uses Systems Concepts' 10 look-alikes, I think. I left a long time ago but that is what I think I heard from friends who now run much of the company. -- A/~~\A 'moo2u from osu' Jim Ebright e-mail: ebright@bronze.coil.com ((0 0))_______ "'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean \ / the \ we watched the government - not the other way around." (--)\ OSU | - Bill Stewart Article 4066 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ix.netcom.com!netcom11!alderson From: alderson@netcom11.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: CompuServe ditching PDP-10s? In-Reply-To: Frank McConnell's message of 6 Sep 1998 16:20:59 -0700 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom11.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <35EED339.10E6@gazonk.del> <6snh70$hgv@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <35EF1A14.D4C1E30@plano.net> <6sv5cr$98s$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:20:41 GMT Lines: 19 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:112291 alt.sys.pdp10:4066 In article <6sv5cr$98s$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Frank McConnell writes: >And I don't think the CompuServe -10 clones were Foonly machines. My vague >recollection (probably something I read on the net somewhere) is that >CompuServe bought a license to manufacture Systems Concepts -10 clones and >made their own. This is correct: Mike Leavitt and Stewart Nelson of SC could not manufacturer their boxes fast enough to satisfy the demand from CIS, so they licensed the design for a hefty (40% of purchase price) fee for each one CIS built. However, CIS stopped using any PDP-10 architecture in December 1996, laying off all but one of their PDP-10 systems personnel to force a move to NT that had been "lagging" (from a management perspective) for a long time. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 4068 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: CompuServe ditching PDP-10s? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 9 Sep 1998 17:24:13 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 64 Message-ID: <6t6djt$oq01@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <35EED339.10E6@gazonk.del> <6snh70$hgv@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <35EF1A14.D4C1E30@plano.net> <6sv5cr$98s$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:112485 alt.sys.pdp10:4068 Frank McConnell (fmc@reanimators.org) wrote: : Charles Richmond wrote (in a.f.c): : > Max Froedge wrote: : > > Close. I think they migrated over to PDP-10 clones called K10 and : > > K20. I can't remember the name of the manufacturer. : > Does the name "Foonly Computers" ring a bell? I believe they were a : > California company that built PDP-10 clones. If I recall correctly, : > there was an MIT connection for the founders of Foonly. : Not MIT, Stanford. : And I don't think the CompuServe -10 clones were Foonly machines. : My vague recollection (probably something I read on the net : somewhere) is that CompuServe bought a license to manufacture : Systems Concepts -10 clones and made their own. This is covered in the Jargon file, under "Mars". Nothing there about CIS buying a license, though: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- :Mars: n. A legendary tragic failure, the archetypal Hacker Dream Gone Wrong. Mars was the code name for a family of PDP-10 compatible computers built by Systems Concepts (now, The SC Group): the multi-processor SC-30M, the small uniprocessor SC-25M, and the never-built superprocessor SC-40M. These machines were marvels of engineering design; although not much slower than the unique {Foonly} F-1, they were physically smaller and consumed less power than the much slower DEC KS10 or Foonly F-2, F-3, or F-4 machines. They were also completely compatible with the DEC KL10, and ran all KL10 binaries (including the operating system) with no modifications at about 2--3 times faster than a KL10. When DEC cancelled the Jupiter project in 1983, Systems Concepts should have made a bundle selling their machine into shops with a lot of software investment in PDP-10s, and in fact their spring 1984 announcement generated a great deal of excitement in the PDP-10 world. TOPS-10 was running on the Mars by the summer of 1984, and TOPS-20 by early fall. Unfortunately, the hackers running Systems Concepts were much better at designing machines than at mass producing or selling them; the company allowed itself to be sidetracked by a bout of perfectionism into continually improving the design, and lost credibility as delivery dates continued to slip. They also overpriced the product ridiculously; they believed they were competing with the KL10 and VAX 8600 and failed to reckon with the likes of Sun Microsystems and other hungry startups building workstations with power comparable to the KL10 at a fraction of the price. By the time SC shipped the first SC-30M to Stanford in late 1985, most customers had already made the traumatic decision to abandon the PDP-10, usually for VMS or Unix boxes. Most of the Mars computers built ended up being purchased by CompuServe. This tale and the related saga of {Foonly} hold a lesson for hackers: if you want to play in the {Real World}, you need to learn Real World moves. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Television commercials are a form of religious literature." -Neil Postman Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx Article 4069 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-master.cisco.com!not-for-mail From: Bill Westfield Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: CompuServe ditching PDP-10s? Date: 09 Sep 1998 22:41:36 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <54emtkttgv.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> References: <35EED339.10E6@gazonk.del> <6snh70$hgv@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <35EF1A14.D4C1E30@plano.net> <6sv5cr$98s$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <6t6djt$oq01@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flipper.cisco.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:112535 alt.sys.pdp10:4069 Compuserve did a lot of PDP10 hacking, and it would not surprise me if they had licensed the design from SC as Rich Stated (and Rich was intimately involved with Stanford's SC30, so he might know!) My favorite hack was replacing the linear power supplies in the (dec) KL-10 with modern switching power supply technology. That changed the efficiency from ~30% to ~85% or so, saving enough $$$ in power and airconditioning to buy surplussed CPUs every couple of months... BillW -- (remove spam food from return address) Article 4075 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom!alderson From: alderson@netcom.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: CompuServe ditching PDP-10s? In-Reply-To: tph@longhorn.uucp's message of 9 Sep 1998 17:24:13 GMT Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Sender: alderson@netcom.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <35EED339.10E6@gazonk.del> <6snh70$hgv@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <35EF1A14.D4C1E30@plano.net> <6sv5cr$98s$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <6t6djt$oq01@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:10:33 GMT Lines: 48 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:112610 alt.sys.pdp10:4075 In article <6t6djt$oq01@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) writes: >This is covered in the Jargon file, under "Mars". Nothing there about >CIS buying a license, though: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >:Mars: n. A legendary tragic failure, the archetypal Hacker > Dream Gone Wrong. Mars was the code name for a family of PDP-10 > compatible computers built by Systems Concepts (now, The SC Group): > the multi-processor SC-30M, the small uniprocessor SC-25M, and the > never-built superprocessor SC-40M. Mostly just wanted to note that the SC-40 (not "M", which was the designation for a never-delivered multiprocessor configuration) was eventually delivered, in 1993. Compuserve built those once they were available. The model numbers at SC were SC-30M (a 5ft x 30in x 30in cabinet with LOTS of empty space inside), the prototype to which was delivered to LOTS the day before Hallowe'en, 1985*; the SC-25, which was the SC-30M processor in a BA23 cabinet; the SC-20 which was an SC-25 with the clock speed cut in half; and the SC-40, which was much faster than the SC-30M. I tried to buy an SC-20 for cisco Systems when I worked there briefly (1993); Mike wouldn't even send me a quote because he was afraid that the box would end up in Len's hands--even though Len parted ways with cisco in 1990. We settled for storing a KL with Bruce Kennard. *I still have pictures, of Ralph Gorin in costume, of me next to the beast, and so on. > When DEC cancelled the Jupiter project in 1983, Systems Concepts > should have made a bundle selling their machine into shops with a > lot of software investment in PDP-10s, and in fact their spring > 1984 announcement generated a great deal of excitement in the > PDP-10 world. I still have my button that reads Mars may be smaller than Jupiter, but it's a lot closer. -- Fred Wright The SC Group got out of the PDP-10 business altogether early in 1996. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 4082 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: CompuServe ditching PDP-10s? Date: 11 Sep 1998 16:16:50 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6tbidi$9gu5@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <35EED339.10E6@gazonk.del> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:112672 alt.sys.pdp10:4082 Richard M. Alderson III (alderson@netcom.netcom.com) wrote: : Mostly just wanted to note that the SC-40 (not "M", which was the designation : for a never-delivered multiprocessor configuration) was eventually delivered, : in 1993. Compuserve built those once they were available. : The SC Group got out of the PDP-10 business altogether early in 1996. Thanks, the Jargon File entry had the tone of describing a long-gone organization; it had not occurred to me that they might still exist. A bit of web searching turns up , though. They're still selling the SC-40. Maybe.... There's a description of the SC-40 at , which seems to be their only product, and their home page says "Our SC-40 is still very much alive". They also apparently still provide TOPS-10 updates (though you need a password to get at them), and they seem to think that CIS still uses their hardware. Exploring their web pages does give the impression that Sumo wrestling is their primary interest these days. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx Article 6341 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Compuserve's -10/-20 systems Date: 11 Oct 2001 21:28:38 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 22 Sender: alderson+news@panix2.panix.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1002850118 8092 166.84.1.2 (12 Oct 2001 01:28:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2001 01:28:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6341 Lawrence H Greenwald writes: > Whatever happened to Compuserve's -10 and -20 systems? They probably have > replaced (assuming they're still in business) them with racks and racks of PC > based servers. Compu$erve stopped using KL-10's running their highly modified version of 4S72 about 10 years ago, when they ported the OS to the Systems Concepts SC-25 (and later SC-40) clone. They got rid of all the KL's then. (NB: They never ran Tops-20.) About 5 years ago, they decided to move their business to Windows NT servers. This appears to have killed them, or at least weakened them to the point that AOL eventually bought Compuserve Information Services. Compuserve Networking Services (a different part of the whole business) went instead to WorldCom. They were trying to get off their few remaining SC boxes a while back... -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article 6337 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.radix.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: ALGOL and 1022 database Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:41:21 GMT References: <3BC3CE89.5FACE6CF@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3BC49836.BEF76E24@bartek.dontspamme.net> <1vjastcqtciaedqoi6mu08fp95tq9o6fls@4ax.com> Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 50 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6337 comp.os.vms:43100 In article <1vjastcqtciaedqoi6mu08fp95tq9o6fls@4ax.com>, Alan Greig wrote: >On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:38:22 GMT, "Zane H. Healy" > wrote: > >>Arthur Krewat wrote: >>> The tape is up at http://pdp10.kilonet.org/files/fakedecus.lib10.0126.tap.gz >>> (right click on the link and select "Save link as"). >> >>Hopefully I can give it a try later today. >> >>> BTW, what IS 1022? >> >>Well, my mind is feeling a little foggy today, but IIRC, it's a database >>that started on the PDP-10 and was later ported to the VAX and Alpha (for >>OpenVMS). I believe it's still around. Or to put it another way it's > >Yes renamed 1032 on VMS and it is still around. One of the 1022/1032 >engineers monitors comp.os.vms (added a crosspost) so maybe they'll >spot this thread. Computer Corporation of America (http://www.cca-int.com/) still lists 1032. I think but am not sure Compuserve held onto 1022 when it sold 1032 to CCA since the PDP-10 based software was built around 1022. If my memory is correct, I guess that means AOL has the rights now. A check with CCA might be in order. The license check was very tricky with code scattered all over the place. I forget what it was even looking for other than date so just changing the date won't be enough. >I think I recall reading many years ago that 1022 was the serial >number of the KL-10 the database was originally developed on. > >I know with certainty that the 1022 TOPS-20 documentation was still on >the shelf at my previous employer three years ago. I may even have a manual buried in a box somewhere. I think it was also included on the distribution tape which would be better than trying to scan it. Sam PS That reminds me. The folks in RI might want to see if they can score a power supply for the KL from what is left of Compuserve. Much less power hungry and gives off less heat. They sold a few to other sites as well but couldn't quite work out a deal with DEC. Probably not enough to keep it running full time but maybe more often than with the original unit. Article 6423 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,alt.solaris.x86,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RetroComputing memerobilia (was: Which one should I choose? ) Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 22 Oct 2001 15:35:29 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 31 Sender: alderson+news@panix1.panix.com Message-ID: References: <9acc2ac1.0110180103.6720230b@posting.google.com> <3BD2C593.4B7F9B6D@skynet.be> <9qv8t9$6v8$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1003779345 2224 166.84.1.1 (22 Oct 2001 19:35:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2001 19:35:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:34261 alt.solaris.x86:17996 alt.sys.pdp10:6423 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > In article , > Chris Hedley wrote: > : TOPS-20 didn't run anywhere (except in a few niche environments) for quite > : a while because the ancient 36 bit PDP-10 hardware hasn't been made for > : nigh on 20 years... > Since 1988... > : but used to be a really big-name OS; a close relation (but don't confuse > : the two!), TOPS-10, was pretty much responsible for getting Compuserve off > : the ground. > Close but not quite on. Compuserve had their own homegrown OS for > PDP-10 hardware. For more about TOPS-20, 36 bits, and so on, see: You're both right: The Compuserve OS spun off from Tops-10 v. 4 (I think 4S72) and went its own way. Most of this was done with "negative CALLI's", that is, system calls whose selector value had bit 18 set; the WAITS operating system at Stanford AI Lab did the same sort of thing to a v. 3 monitor. In addition to the OS mods, the CIS folks changed the microcode to get a larger address space (unrelated to KL "extended addressing"). All of this gleaned from the last CIS -10 guy nearly 6 years ago. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless