Article 4172 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <6v65lv$4pd$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <361a928c.10585390@news.clark.net> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com
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Date: 6 Oct 1998 13:36:35 -0500
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In article <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, Eric Werme - replace nospam
with werme <> wrote: >Ah - on a PDP-11/40 console, you only had one set of
switches, and I beleive >you had to push examine to set the address and pull
deposit to store data to
                 ^^^^^^^
Not LOAD ADRS?  That would be consistant w/others.  But anyway yes it has to
be done in two steps.  IIRC the KS10's 8080A console emulator is the same,
you can't give an address in a deposit command (only data) so you need to
load up the address pointer with another command first.

John Wilson
D Bit


Article 4176 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:03:26 GMT
Organization: TWLG
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Message-ID: <361c64b1.71938106@news.clark.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3615172c.19558816@news.clark.net> <6v2n7j$9at$9@strato.ultra.net> <F08Eoo.377@world.std.com> <6v65lv$4pd$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <361a928c.10585390@news.clark.net> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <6vfkj4$lh5$1@strato.ultra.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

>In article <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
>   nospam@zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme) wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>Not true, but often done in practice.
>>
>>Set address switches to 30
>>Set data switches to 1
>>Push "Deposit this"

This is correct.

<snip>
>
>Ric, I don't remember _pulling_ anything.  Weren't they just
>the old -11 toggle switches?  Geez.. this stuff is so hazed
>in my brain.  I'm glad we're talking about real stuff :-).
>
>On the -10s the switches were those rocker thingies.  Is there
>an official term <g>?

As to switches:

PDP-6 had lovely switches. The best ever. There were large toggle
switches (something like the bat-wing switches on British motor cars
except round and tapered and longer, made of brushed aluminum, I
think) for control functions and then little microswitches for things
like address and data. These had the advantage of staying up or down
after being pushed, so you could run your finger along them and "feel"
the address to make sure it was right, or look at them and see.
Feeling was easier and faster. The console looked like something that
would be built in a laboratory rather than a piece of commercial gear.

The KA-10 had awful switches - rocker switches made of colored
plastic. Probably cheaper, maybe more reliable, but not as aesthetic.

The KI-10 had absolutely lovely switches again- square translucent
switches with lights built into them. When you pushed a switch the
light would (might) come on. Very Star Trek. Looked the way a computer
should. Beam me up, Scottie.

The KL ... well, enuf said.



Article 4195 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Message-ID: <F0HM1q.2tF@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 02:39:26 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3615172c.19558816@news.clark.net> <6v2n7j$9at$9@strato.ultra.net> <F08Eoo.377@world.std.com> <6v65lv$4pd$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <361a928c.10585390@news.clark.net> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lk
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4195

jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:


>Ric, I don't remember _pulling_ anything.  Weren't they just
>the old -11 toggle switches?  Geez.. this stuff is so hazed
>in my brain.  I'm glad we're talking about real stuff :-).

The 11/40 (/35, /45, /55, /70) had essentially triangular shaped
switches with a rounded apex sticking out from the panel.  It
had a pivot point located in the center of the base of the triangle.
In the down position, it was a zero, lift for a one...

>On the -10s the switches were those rocker thingies.  Is there
>an official term <g>?

the KA10 has the same style of toggle switches (rockers) as the
pdp-8/i.  The KI10 had square, momentary contact pushbuttons.

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


Article 4209 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail
From: inwap@best.com (Smith and O'Halloran)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: 8 Oct 1998 16:34:00 -0700
Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats)
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In article <6vjahh$puq@zk2nws.zko.dec.com>,
Alan H. Martin <amartin@denton.zko.dec.com> wrote:
>Chris is referring to a "680I", (perhaps contained in a DC68, but I'm not
>positive).  The 680I has been described elsewhere on Usenet as a PDP-8/I with
>additional communications hardware.  He's specifically referring to the -8
>connected to KA#101 at Stevens Institute in Hoboken.
>
>The DL10 memory window was used on the PDP-11-based DC76 box (perhaps among
>others).  KA#109 at BOCES/NCODE (Westbury, NY) used a DC76/DL10 combo.
>
>I didn't know what interfaced a -10 to a DC68, but my 3rd edition -10 SRM says
>that it was a DA10 12/18 bit computer interface which sat on both the -10's
>and the -8's I/O bus.

Yep.  And the 680I responded to READ-IN_MODE, and could be used to
squirt a bootstrap program into the KA's memory.  (This was instead of
relying on the paper-tape reader to load in the bootstrap that knew
how to talk to RP02 disk drives.)

Later on, DCA (Digital Communications Associates of Norcross, Georgia) came
out with another box that lived on the -10's I/O bus and talked to remote
terminal concentrators.  We did not have an ANF-10 network at the Colorado
School of Mines, but I hacked in some of the network-related UUOs so that
SYSTAT and such could report which terminal multiplexor the TTY was connected
to.

	-Joe
-- 
INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran and our cats
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"


Article 4195 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Message-ID: <F0HM1q.2tF@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 02:39:26 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3615172c.19558816@news.clark.net> <6v2n7j$9at$9@strato.ultra.net> <F08Eoo.377@world.std.com> <6v65lv$4pd$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <361a928c.10585390@news.clark.net> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lk
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:


>Ric, I don't remember _pulling_ anything.  Weren't they just
>the old -11 toggle switches?  Geez.. this stuff is so hazed
>in my brain.  I'm glad we're talking about real stuff :-).

The 11/40 (/35, /45, /55, /70) had essentially triangular shaped
switches with a rounded apex sticking out from the panel.  It
had a pivot point located in the center of the base of the triangle.
In the down position, it was a zero, lift for a one...

>On the -10s the switches were those rocker thingies.  Is there
>an official term <g>?

the KA10 has the same style of toggle switches (rockers) as the
pdp-8/i.  The KI10 had square, momentary contact pushbuttons.

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


Article 4211 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: nospam@zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: 9 Oct 1998 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <6vjjvc$4qm$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3615172c.19558816@news.clark.net> <6v2n7j$9at$9@strato.ultra.net> <F08Eoo.377@world.std.com> <6v65lv$4pd$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <361a928c.10585390@news.clark.net> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lk <F0HM1q.2tF@world.std.com>
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mbg@world.std.com (Megan) writes:

>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:


>>Ric, I don't remember _pulling_ anything.  Weren't they just
>>the old -11 toggle switches?  Geez.. this stuff is so hazed
>>in my brain.  I'm glad we're talking about real stuff :-).

>The 11/40 (/35, /45, /55, /70) had essentially triangular shaped
>switches with a rounded apex sticking out from the panel.  It
>had a pivot point located in the center of the base of the triangle.
>In the down position, it was a zero, lift for a one...

That wasn't my reference.  All the momentary contact switches were
spring loaded triangles that you pushed down and would spring back.
Deposit was the one exception - you had to lift it up and it would
spring down.  BAH - I don't think you ever had much need to muck
with bits on the various -11s.  Rebooting them was mostly setting the
start address in the switches and pushing load address and start.

>>On the -10s the switches were those rocker thingies.  Is there
>>an official term <g>?

>the KA10 has the same style of toggle switches (rockers) as the
>pdp-8/i.  The KI10 had square, momentary contact pushbuttons.

The KA rocker switches were nicely rounded and had a much better feel
than most other console switches.  I often copied an address from the
data light down to the address switches, then added an offset directly
into the switches (think of a binary abacus) to get to important data
when I couldn't use DDT or EDDT.
--
<>    Eric (Ric) Werme     <> The above is unlikely to contain   <>
<>    ROT-13 addresses:    <> official claims or policies of     <>
<>   <jrezr@mx3.qrp.pbz>   <> Compaq Computer Corp.              <>
<> <jrezr@plorecbegny.arg> <>  http://www.cyberportal.net/werme  <>


Article 4212 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lk <F0HM1q.2tF@world.std.com> <6vjjvc$4qm$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
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In article <6vjjvc$4qm$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote:
>The KA rocker switches were nicely rounded and had a much better feel
>than most other console switches.

I've been wondering about this, most of the DEC front panels seemed to use
switches that were a bit substantial for my tastes, were they really that
easy to use?  The thing I like about my 8/E's front panel is that the flimsy
little bat switches (really slide switches with bats mounted over them) are
very lightweight so it's easy to change the switches quickly by whacking them
with the side of your finger, but the KA10 rockers and most PDP-11 triangles
look like you'd have to go a lot more slowly since it takes a good solid poke
to flip them.  Am I wrong?

John Wilson
D Bit
(still fantasizing about having switches made up for a custom console for E11)


Article 4213 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 02:06:06 GMT
Organization: TWLG
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References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980928112124.10870D-100000@bony.umtec.com> <6vdd7g$ohs$1@nntpd.lk <F0HM1q.2tF@world.std.com> <6vjjvc$4qm$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <361d61a8.0@news.wizvax.net>
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wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) wrote:

>In article <6vjjvc$4qm$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
>Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote:
>>The KA rocker switches were nicely rounded and had a much better feel
>>than most other console switches.
>
>I've been wondering about this, most of the DEC front panels seemed to use
>switches that were a bit substantial for my tastes, were they really that
>easy to use?  The thing I like about my 8/E's front panel is that the flimsy
>little bat switches (really slide switches with bats mounted over them) are
>very lightweight so it's easy to change the switches quickly by whacking them
>with the side of your finger, but the KA10 rockers and most PDP-11 triangles
>look like you'd have to go a lot more slowly since it takes a good solid poke
>to flip them.  Am I wrong?

No. You're not wrong. The KA10 switches were lightweight junk plastic,
but weren't like the PDP-11 switches (they were, as has been pointed
out earlier, like certain PDP-8 switches). The problem with the KA-10
switches was that they were multi-colored flimsy rocker switches. The
PDP-6 sported wonderful positive action microswitches that gave a
satisfying click when you switched them. Coupled with the brushed
aluminum panel, you felt like you were really doing science when you
used the machine. Dr. Who would have been proud to use them.

Most flavors of PDP-11 console switches were, by and large, thin
trapozoidal plastic jobbers (you call them triangles), but at least
they'd stay where you put them. Still, no self-respecting mad
scientist would have had them on the Tardis for a minute.

Several bouts of serious memory deposits with the PDP-6 could give you
finger callouses. The PDP-10 would probably give you finger cramps.
The KI-10 would give you hallucinations because of all the pretty
blinkin-lights. Still, all of these were probably better than the
PDP-11 Kaymart "triangles."

Given my druthers, it would be the PDP-6 or the KI-10. Hard to chose
between them. Love them blinkin-light-switches, but the "click" of the
PDP-1/PDP-6 switches, and the wonderful truncated cone toggle-switches
for control functions had a really nice tactile/auditory experience.




Article 4224 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: PDP-8/i front ends to KA's (680 or something, was KL front ends)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:10:27 -0400
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
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John Everett wrote in message <6vie6j$jk4$1@hirame.wwa.com>...
>In article <6vgg60$1gu@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, ccw@idt.net says...
>>The terminal controller for the PDP-10 that I remember was actually a
>>PDP-8/I (I think) with 32K of 12 bit words, and it was described to me as
>>the predecessor of the UART, that is, it read each bit and assembled a
seven
>>(or eight or whatever) bit byte by sensing the start bit, the data bits,
the
>>parity, the stop and the rest.  It handled 30 or more 10CPS terminals (110
>>baud, 2 stop bits) and 5 or so 300 bps (High Speed) terminals.
...
>the TTY support and had to get intimately familiar with the little beast. I
>seem to recall on the 8/I there was a 680I which differed from the 680 in
bit
>sampling rate. I think the 680 sampled 8 times per bit, while the 680I only
>sampled 5 times. But then again that was a long time ago.
>
In fact, that really rings a bell.  How the 680 worked, and the sampling
rates involved was related to how a UART worked, and I remember someone, or
a group of programmers at Stevens (possibly including Mr. Crispin, Mr.
Martin and others) explaining sampling to me, and the difference between 5
samples per bit and 8 samples per bit is familiar.  It is hard to remember
because there was one big terminal room with 7 model 35's, and 2 model 33's
and people chatted in loud conversations over the noise.  Help was not that
far away!  They also had big flat tables on either side, good for printouts,
which come to think of it, I would do well to emulate!




Article 4229 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-8/i front ends to KA's (680 or something, was KL front ends)
Date: 10 Oct 1998 13:39:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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Message-ID: <361f60a0.47867953@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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"Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net> wrote:

| John Everett wrote in message <6vie6j$jk4$1@hirame.wwa.com>...
| >In article <6vgg60$1gu@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, ccw@idt.net says...
| >>The terminal controller for the PDP-10 that I remember was actually a
| >>PDP-8/I (I think) with 32K of 12 bit words, and it was described to me as
| >>the predecessor of the UART, that is, it read each bit and assembled a
| seven
| >>(or eight or whatever) bit byte by sensing the start bit, the data bits,
| the
| >>parity, the stop and the rest.  It handled 30 or more 10CPS terminals (110
| >>baud, 2 stop bits) and 5 or so 300 bps (High Speed) terminals.
| ...
| >the TTY support and had to get intimately familiar with the little beast. I
| >seem to recall on the 8/I there was a 680I which differed from the 680 in
| bit
| >sampling rate. I think the 680 sampled 8 times per bit, while the 680I only
| >sampled 5 times. But then again that was a long time ago.
| >
| In fact, that really rings a bell.  How the 680 worked, and the sampling
| rates involved was related to how a UART worked, and I remember someone, or
| a group of programmers at Stevens (possibly including Mr. Crispin, Mr.
| Martin and others) explaining sampling to me, and the difference between 5
| samples per bit and 8 samples per bit is familiar.  It is hard to remember
| because there was one big terminal room with 7 model 35's, and 2 model 33's
| and people chatted in loud conversations over the noise.  Help was not that
| far away!  They also had big flat tables on either side, good for printouts,
| which come to think of it, I would do well to emulate!
| 
The official designation of the PDP8/I "world's largest UART" was DCA-680,
and, if I remember correctly, it was not exactly 100% a DEC product
(developed, if I remember the nameplate on the LIRICS KA-10 unit properly) by
Digital Communications Associates, hence the designation.

The DCA-680 could handle at least 72 Bell Datapump standard connections (I
believe the standard number was 103) of up to 300 baud, symetric, each. Most
lines ran slower, at 110 baud because of the common use of ASR-33 Teletypes at
the far end.

It also accepted multiple-line connections into early MUX's for transmission
over leased lines with the greatest of ease.

The system had some neat features - especially the ability, by throwing one
bit switch on the constantly-monitored 8/I front panel, to give the 8/I CTY
the ability to link directly to a given terminal.

With 72 high school users frequently trying rather poor attacks on the LIRICS
system, it was a great way to scare some would-be hacker to near-death when
the KA-10 DAEMON indicated someone was attempting to break the system. (click,
input port number, type "the machine is not happy with you")

Ahhh for the good old days...

					dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 4230 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: mhwood@Ameritech.net (Mark H. Wood)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:17:55 GMT
Organization: La Petite Hackerie
Lines: 18
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Chris Ward (ccw@idt.net) wrote:
: The terminal controller for the PDP-10 that I remember was actually a
: PDP-8/I (I think) with 32K of 12 bit words, and it was described to me as

Don't forget the PDP11-based DC76.  We had two of these on a KL10D(?)
(carried over from a KI system I think, but I wasn't let into the
machine room back then) and I think we then carried 'em over somehow
to a pair of KL10Es.  Very nice, but they'd get "funny" after a while
and Field Service would come out and take them to bits, wipe *all* of
the card fingers with solvent, put 'em back together and then they'd
run well again for some months.  (Before you ask:  we were praised at
least once for the cleanliness of our machine room.  Thinking about
what I usually found under the floor when running cables, I'm scared
to ask what a dirty room would've looked like.)
-- 
-- 
Mark H. Wood, radical centrist                             mhwood@ameritech.net
Having seen what's at the edges of the road, I much prefer the dead armadillos.


Article 4253 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 00:33:22 GMT
Organization: TWLG
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mhwood@Ameritech.net (Mark H. Wood) wrote:

>Chris Ward (ccw@idt.net) wrote:
>: The terminal controller for the PDP-10 that I remember was actually a
>: PDP-8/I (I think) with 32K of 12 bit words, and it was described to me as
>
>Don't forget the PDP11-based DC76.  We had two of these on a KL10D(?)
>(carried over from a KI system I think, but I wasn't let into the
>machine room back then) and I think we then carried 'em over somehow
>to a pair of KL10Es.  Very nice, but they'd get "funny" after a while
>and Field Service would come out and take them to bits, wipe *all* of
>the card fingers with solvent, put 'em back together and then they'd
>run well again for some months.  (Before you ask:  we were praised at
>least once for the cleanliness of our machine room.  Thinking about
>what I usually found under the floor when running cables, I'm scared
>to ask what a dirty room would've looked like.)
>-- 
Actually, the DC76 became the DN8x series. Lots of code was stolen.
The decision was made that the DC76 wasn't really supportable, because
the code sort of wandered everywhere. So it was rewritten in its
entirety.

The king of the DC76 programmers wasn't actually at DEC -- it was a
person at NIH who knew the code by heart (I think he dreamt DC76 code)
and who would find bugs in code that they never even used. DEC tried
very hard to replace all DC76 boxes with DN8x upgrades, even offering
them at no cost so we wouldn't have to support it anymore. However, if
all you wanted was lots of terminals, the DC76 worked just fine (it
had LPT and CDR support, but it never really worked that well). Also,
the DC76 used older ANF-10 protocols that we always hoped we could
write out of existence. Like all good things, the wish was never
fulfilled because people had it working with local hacks, and didn't
want to replace it.


Article 4323 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: nospam@zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL Console Commands
Date: 20 Oct 1998 01:21:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <70goj9$ufj$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>>>Would something like DECnet or ANF-10 have been difficult to 
>>>incorporate into the system?

>>Well, the first question is who would have wanted to? ITS was on the
>>ARPANET early on, and the task wasn't that difficult. Because ITS had
>>strong device independence, network devices weren't hard to implement,
>>and because the file systems were designed to be device independent,
>>remote file systems were also up pretty early (in fact the various ITS
>>systems around MIT were tied together over the ARPANET very shortly
>>after the IMP arrived).

>When did the ARPANET happen?  I remember Jim talking about working on
>a project that connected systems at ORNL, but then, the next time
>I had an inkling of computers talking reasonably to each other
>was ANF10.

The ARPAnet started in 1969, CMU was on the net in a year or so.  I
think I installed the first RFC 542 FTP client in September 1972 just before
vacation, largely driven by the AI group's claim that Stanford would
have their server running real soon now.  (Got back from vacation and
found my code didn't work.  Sigh.)  The new Telnet was implemented in
73.  Ed Taft at Harvard did TOPS-10 servers for FTP and TELNET.

When I got to DEC, I joined a group looking into terminal protocols
for DECnet.  I pushed for TELNET (and the ARPAnet protocols), but people
seemed intent on a protocol to fit DEC's needs.  If I had gotten there
about six months earlier perhaps I could have influenced things
better, but then again, there were some pretty strong personalities to
deal with and the NIH syndrome was pretty well entrenched.

Actually, there were a couple good things in ANF-10's terminal protocol,
but the whole company would have done better embracing the ARPAnet
protocols.  Better late than never!

When I joined DEC, Harvard and CMU were the only TOPS-10 systems on
the net.  Rutgers joined a year or so later.  It was all public domain
code.  DEC did a ARPAnet project, but that was after I left in 1978
to join a small company in NH working on a Z80 based printer.

To confirm the answer - ITS was on the ARPAnet, it had TELNET and FTP
and file sharing.  It had no use for DECnet or ANF-10.

--
<>    Eric (Ric) Werme     <> The above is unlikely to contain   <>
<>    ROT-13 addresses:    <> official claims or policies of     <>
<>   <jrezr@mx3.qrp.pbz>   <> Compaq Computer Corp.              <>
<> <jrezr@plorecbegny.arg> <>  http://www.cyberportal.net/werme  <>


Article 4324 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: nospam@zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: ARPAnet pioneer Jon Postel died 1998 Oct 16
Date: 20 Oct 1998 12:03:23 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <70hu6b$euh$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
References: <70goj9$ufj$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
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After posting the following to alt.sys.pdp10, I read that Jon Postel,
ARPAnet pioneer and keeper of the Numbers, died last Friday.  I may have
met Jon briefly at USC-ISI in 1974. I did exchange some Email with him
over FTP.  Even then, it was clear that Jon was one of the vital people
in the ARPAnet community.

See http://www.isoc.org/isoc/media/releases/postel.shtml for more information.

>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>>>>Would something like DECnet or ANF-10 have been difficult to 
>>>>incorporate into the system?

>>>Well, the first question is who would have wanted to? ITS was on the
>>>ARPANET early on, and the task wasn't that difficult. Because ITS had
>>>strong device independence, network devices weren't hard to implement,
>>>and because the file systems were designed to be device independent,
>>>remote file systems were also up pretty early (in fact the various ITS
>>>systems around MIT were tied together over the ARPANET very shortly
>>>after the IMP arrived).

>>When did the ARPANET happen?  I remember Jim talking about working on
>>a project that connected systems at ORNL, but then, the next time
>>I had an inkling of computers talking reasonably to each other
>>was ANF10.

>The ARPAnet started in 1969, CMU was on the net in a year or so.  I
>think I installed the first RFC 542 FTP client in September 1972 just before
>vacation, largely driven by the AI group's claim that Stanford would
>have their server running real soon now.  (Got back from vacation and
>found my code didn't work.  Sigh.)  The new Telnet was implemented in
>73.  Ed Taft at Harvard did TOPS-10 servers for FTP and TELNET.

>When I got to DEC, I joined a group looking into terminal protocols
>for DECnet.  I pushed for TELNET (and the ARPAnet protocols), but people
>seemed intent on a protocol to fit DEC's needs.  If I had gotten there
>about six months earlier perhaps I could have influenced things
>better, but then again, there were some pretty strong personalities to
>deal with and the NIH syndrome was pretty well entrenched.

>Actually, there were a couple good things in ANF-10's terminal protocol,
>but the whole company would have done better embracing the ARPAnet
>protocols.  Better late than never!

>When I joined DEC, Harvard and CMU were the only TOPS-10 systems on
>the net.  Rutgers joined a year or so later.  It was all public domain
>code.  DEC did a ARPAnet project, but that was after I left in 1978
>to join a small company in NH working on a Z80 based printer.

>To confirm the answer - ITS was on the ARPAnet, it had TELNET and FTP
>and file sharing.  It had no use for DECnet or ANF-10.
--
<>    Eric (Ric) Werme     <> The above is unlikely to contain   <>
<>    ROT-13 addresses:    <> official claims or policies of     <>
<>   <jrezr@mx3.qrp.pbz>   <> Compaq Computer Corp.              <>
<> <jrezr@plorecbegny.arg> <>  http://www.cyberportal.net/werme  <>


Article 5151 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@stoneweb.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:15:29 -0400
Organization: as little as possible!
Lines: 31
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Joe Smith wrote:
> 
> The PDP-11 frontend is booted from a pair of DECtapes on a KL models
> 1080 and 1090.

   Yes. It was the -20s (KLs in different packaging) which booted from
floppy.

> Originally, the front end ran a program loader called KLDCP (KL
> Diagnostics Control Program, I think).

   Yes, again.

> KLDCP ran from DECtape or floppy, not paper tape.  At Tymshare, we
> continued running KLDCP off of DECtape long after RSX-20F [...]

   ADP, too, at least when I left their employ in 1983, ran KLDCP as
the front-end software. All the interconnections were handled through
shared-memory links in -10-space, so RSX-20F wouldn't have gotten us
anything.

   If I recall correctly, we could boot KLDCP either from DECtape or
from an attached RP04(6?) via an RH-11 in the 11/40.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                |                     |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 5156 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...
Date: 21 May 1999 15:45:23 -0700
Organization: Chez Inwap
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In article <3744B3B1.7B84519@stoneweb.com>,
Carl R. Friend <carl.friend@stoneweb.com> wrote:
>   If I recall correctly, we could boot KLDCP either from DECtape or
>from an attached RP04(6?) via an RH-11 in the 11/40.

Tymshare had 13 KL's, 13 SA-10 PDP-10 to IBM channel adaptors, and a large
disk farm of IBM-compatible disks.

There was also 3 sets of RH20 boards, and one RP06.  If a KL-10 was so
sick that the diagnostics on DECtape weren't enough, the RP06 drive was
cabled up to the console front end RH-11.  There were more thorough
diagnostics on the KLAD pack.

Under extremely rare conditions, the RH-20 boards would be installed so
that the KL could be booted with TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 instead of TYMCOM-X.
	-Joe

-- 
INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock.
  (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.)
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"


Article 5273 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:12:31 -0400
Lines: 49
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David Cressey wrote in message ...
>Was RSX20F the only front end system used with TOPS-10 aside from KLDCP?


Yep. You pretty much had to run 20F on TOPS-20 if you wanted to use those
DH11s for terminals.

>Wasn't there an RSX10F  or an RSX11F or something like that?


Not that I know of. When I worked at Energy Enterprises in the 80s we were
one of the few sites in the world had a RSX-20F source license. (We also had
a TOPS-20 source license but that was another story.)

20F came on a RP06, and it took something like 8 hours to build from sources
on an 11/40... At EE, system 2110 had two RP06s dual-ported to the 11 for
this purpose.

It was kinda cool that you could run timesharing on the KL while 20F was
building on the 11/40!

I recall from perusing the sources that 20F was actually based on RSX-11D
(not -11M, like you would think).

Wasn't some other 36 bit front end product (loosely) based on -11S?  Like a
DN92 or something? Anyone remember this?

The reason we had 20F sources was so that Dawn Banks could hack in DZ11
support. We wanted to run DCA 205s, which were DZ11 emulators, in the CFE.
The alternative was tons of DH11s talking to stat muxes. The source license
for 20F plus DCA 205s was cheaper than all of those

Dawn's code worked great (as always) but the hardware was a pain. Those 205s
had hardware problems, and DCA visted from Atlanta (Norcross) in order to
make them work. You couldn't have more than one in each Unibus expansion
backplane - there had to be several inches of Unibus between them - or they
locked up at random times under load. So we added a couple of 4 slot Unibus
backplanes to the first bay of each of the 11/40s.

We ran two or three 205s in each CFE, each CFE was configured for something
like 96 DZ11 lines. We ended up with a pretty big all-DCA network connected
up to five 2065s (and a 2020 with a 205, and a couple of 11/44s) by the time
it all came crashing down in the late 80s. (I'm sure it would have been all
ANF10 if we were running Blue, but we were an Orange shop.)

Greg Scott
greg@scott.com