Article 4472 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-190 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TS10 and LAT? Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 10:40:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9bc6c5$nms$9@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1m4B6.894$Hp.41129@typhoon.aracnet.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb+J6MM/D1sreTu/43IYkE8VIytkLRsp8p4B/EZ00sSCxtfAP1rCFqa X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2001 13:06:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4472 In article , Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Any chance of TS10 supporting LAT connections? I'm guessing this would >> require Ethernet support first (at least that's the only thing I know to run >> LAT over). This could be rather cool, both for those of us with LAT >> Terminal servers, and for Linux boxes as it's possible to add LAT support to >> a Linux system. > >But, was Ethernet supported at all on KS10s? I think they mean that for >KL10s. Yes. Bill put it in and was shipped with 7.03; that was Phase IV DECnet. The only thing that he didn't have time to do was to allow the KS10 to be an endnode. My plans were to eventually evolve TOPS-10 to end node only since the rumor at the time was that DECnet Phase ?? would not "talk" to previous phase routers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 6083 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news2.epix.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!barn.net.com From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:40:04 -0400 Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <9o2ahd$8$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8eg9qt4m64bo3j7m9voa3h871rruadapjs@4ax.com> <3BA4E58D.719F0EF1@osfn.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.2 X-Original-Trace: 16 Sep 2001 14:40:04 -0400, 192.168.1.2 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6083 On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:46:53 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht" wrote: >This one was used as a remote station for an LP26. There were two 56K >DMR11 lines, one going to a DN20 on CPU0 and the other going to a DN81 >on CPU1. Your description of the DN81 leaves me a little confused. I don't know of any that were directly attached to a -10. The DN80, 81, and 82, were remote devices, not connected to the -10 directly. CPU was an 11/40. Sync interfaces were mostly DQ11s, which would crank up to 400KB even if 56KB was the supported speed. (Yea, Kalman Reti, Bob Houk and I actually wired two KLs down in the old DAS lab via a pair of front ends and DQ11s, and 400KB was the fastest we could go, but we were only using the RS232 wire, not the V.35 wire. Shorter wire or V.35 wire would have helped. This from a device that the RSX people said could never go faster than 56K.) The DN85, and 87 were attached to the -10 via the DL10, and the DN87s was DTE attached. All DN20s (that I know of) were DTE attached. If you connected a DN81 to the -10 via the DL10, I would really be a DN85 (or 87 if it also had serial lines). Other than that, I think the hardware was the same. The DL10 took care of the bootstrap rom. IIRC, the DMR was a program (register) compatible, lower cost version of the DMC11. Owning a DMC got one free membership in the "ROM of the month" club, as we got new roms just about every month to cure problems with the device. :-) Article 6092 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3BA537FA.3881CC8D@bellatlantic.net> From: bad bob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? References: <9o2ahd$8$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8eg9qt4m64bo3j7m9voa3h871rruadapjs@4ax.com> <3BA4E58D.719F0EF1@osfn.org> <3BA50407.17FD5AA1@osfn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:21:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.197 X-Complaints-To: business-support@verizon.com X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 1000682475 138.88.73.197 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:21:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:21:15 EDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6092 "Michael L. Umbricht" wrote: > > "R.J.S." wrote: > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:46:53 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht" > > wrote: > > > > >This one was used as a remote station for an LP26. There were two 56K > > >DMR11 lines, one going to a DN20 on CPU0 and the other going to a DN81 > > >on CPU1. > > > > Your description of the DN81 leaves me a little confused. I don't > > know of any that were directly attached to a -10. > > Sorry, I'm (obv.) not too familiar with 10 hardware. Most of what I am > describing is based on documents that arrived with the system. Also, we > don't have any of the DN8x cabinets, they were retired long ago. The > ones that we have are all DN2x (plus the DN200) > > On the site wiring diagram it shows DTE1 going to something labeled > "DN81" and then to a DN87S. > > See the two floorplan pages labeled "DMR11 Links" and "Unibus" at > > http://starfish.rcsri.org/rcs/DECsystem/1090/Sikorsky.pdf > > > The DN80, 81, and 82, were remote devices, not connected to the -10 > > directly. CPU was an 11/40. Sync interfaces were mostly DQ11s, which > > would crank up to 400KB even if 56KB was the supported speed. > [...] > > The DN85, and 87 were attached to the -10 via the DL10, and the DN87s > > was DTE attached. All DN20s (that I know of) were DTE attached. > > > > If you connected a DN81 to the -10 via the DL10, I would really be a > > DN85 (or 87 if it also had serial lines). Other than that, I think > > the hardware was the same. The DL10 took care of the bootstrap rom. > > The 1978 purchase order for the 1090 has line items stating: > > "DN87SA Comm. Subsystem with 16 Asynchronous Lines" > "DN81FA 8-Line Terminators with 20ma Current Loop Interface." > > > IIRC, the DMR was a program (register) compatible, lower cost version > > of the DMC11. Owning a DMC got one free membership in the "ROM of the > > month" club, as we got new roms just about every month to cure > > problems with the device. :-) > > The boards are labeled: > > M8203 multidrop line unit / v.35 + integral modem I don't know if this one is the DMC line unit or the DMR line unit. The rs232/v.35 line unit for the DMC was based on different cables that John McNamara and I agreed on. The integral modem units, Really NRZI drivers, were point to point not multipoint. Hmmm. In 78 I had moved back to the SSG, working on vt78, KMC/DMC were done 76-78. > M8207-RA microprocessor link - I don't know if this is the DMR or the KMC11B. We did the KMC11a, as a comm iop cpu and a debug card for the DMC (dmc was rom, kmc was ram) bob > > -mikeu Article 6101 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: "Michael L. Umbricht" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:28:10 -0400 Organization: The Retro-Computing Society of RI Message-ID: <3BA65CDA.75A4CE9D@osfn.org> Reply-To: mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9o2ahd$8$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8eg9qt4m64bo3j7m9voa3h871rruadapjs@4ax.com> <3BA4E58D.719F0EF1@osfn.org> <3BA50407.17FD5AA1@osfn.org> <3BA537FA.3881CC8D@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 43 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6101 bad bob wrote: > > "Michael L. Umbricht" wrote: > > > > The boards are labeled: > > > > M8203 multidrop line unit / v.35 + integral modem > I don't know if this one is the DMC line unit or the DMR line From "field-guide.txt" | M8203 DMP11 U Line unit, RS-449, integral modem > unit. The rs232/v.35 line unit for the DMC was based on different > cables that John McNamara and I agreed on. The integral modem units, The cables are triax, ie. one center conductor and two concentric shields. > Really NRZI drivers, were point to point not multipoint. Hmmm. In 78 The cabinet kit has transmit in and out, plus receive in and out. So, 4 connectors in all, but then two are always terminated for each interface. I do not see any indication that these were used as multipoint. > > M8207-RA microprocessor link - I don't know if this is the DMR Also from "field-guide.txt" | M8207 DMC11 U Microcontroller with space for ROM | | M8207-RA DMR11 U Microprocessor based sync communication controller, | implements DDCMP protocol. | | M8207-YA DMP11 U Microprocessor with DDCMP control ROM | (point-to-point or multidrop, used with M8203) I'll take a look at the other DN20 cabinets to see if they use the same cards. There is at least one that was shown running at 1M to a VAX-11/785. -mikeu Article 6087 of alt.sys.pdp10: Message-ID: <3BA4ED28.3191517C@Empire.Net> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:19:20 -0400 From: John Sauter Organization: System Eyes Computer Store X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? References: <9o2ahd$8$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8eg9qt4m64bo3j7m9voa3h871rruadapjs@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra140-74.empire.net X-Trace: News.Destek.net 1000660724 hydra140-74.empire.net (16 Sep 2001 13:18:44 -0500) Lines: 13 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-austin!propagator!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!News.Destek.net Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6087 "R.J.S." wrote (excerpted): "IIRC, the DN200 was a "modern" version of the DN82. It runs, among other things, ANF-10. I also remember some work being done to run the IBM RJE code on it. Don't know if that ever shipped." There was an IBM RJE product that acted as a remote station, emulating an IBM 3780. The code was essentially free given the PDP-11 code that communicated with remote stations. I don't remember the product name, it was one of the DN60 series. I don't know if this code ever shipped on the DN200. John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) Article 6105 of alt.sys.pdp10: Message-ID: <3BA6BA15.CE0BEDEC@Empire.Net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:05:57 -0400 From: John Sauter Organization: System Eyes Computer Store X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? References: <9o2ahd$8$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8eg9qt4m64bo3j7m9voa3h871rruadapjs@4ax.com> <3BA4ED28.3191517C@Empire.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra141-84.empire.net X-Trace: News.Destek.net 1000778722 hydra141-84.empire.net (17 Sep 2001 22:05:22 -0500) Lines: 17 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-austin!propagator!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!News.Destek.net Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6105 Jim Thomas wrote: "Harumph. I had most of that going by about 1976 at UNO :-) Though I admit it was in the other direction. We had IBM users who needed to use a real computer :-)" I wish I had known about your work; we could have used it as the basis for our product instead of re-inventing the wheel. The DN60 series shipped around 1977 or 1978. Oh well, we had fun. The kernel of the DN60 was based on an early version of the DN80 which I wrote while consulting for Digital a couple of years previously. The code I had written never shipped as part of the DN80 products; it was rewritten after I returned to Sanders. John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) Article 6107 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!feed1.newsreader.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-169 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? Date: Tue, 18 Sep 01 07:39:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9o77kv$2r4$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9o2ahd$8$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8eg9qt4m64bo3j7m9voa3h871rruadapjs@4ax.com> <3BA4ED28.3191517C@Empire.Net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbwHx/+WQk8L8ihHkNRa/2XBhmUusLr1q8sbsLv8so1XRgSilL+Fqec X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:28:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6107 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "John" == John Sauter writes: > > John> There was an IBM RJE product that acted as a remote > John> station, emulating an IBM 3780. The code was essentially > John> free given the PDP-11 code that communicated with > John> remote stations. I don't remember the product name, > John> it was one of the DN60 series. I don't know if this > John> code ever shipped on the DN200. > >Harumph. I had most of that going by about 1976 at UNO :-) Though I admit >it was in the other direction. We had IBM users who needed to use a real >computer :-) That happened at ORNL, too. The scientists were so used to IBMese that it was easier to fake them out by pretended the jobs were run on an IBM. Instead the job was shipped to their 5-CPU system, processed, then shipped back to the IBM system in the form that the users expected. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 6080 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? Date: 16 Sep 2001 16:44:37 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 53 Message-ID: <9o2ktl$4e$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1000658677 142 128.59.39.2 (16 Sep 2001 16:44:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 16:44:37 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6080 In article , Michael Thompson wrote: : Saturday the RCS crew fired up the DN200 Remote Front End that came with the : Sikorsky 1090. It is an 11/34a with two DMR-11 megabit serial boards and : serial and parallel interfaces for a printer and console. It has DECnet boot : ROMS and was connected to the 11/34a front ends on the 1090. : : What did this machine run for an OS and program? : : How is the OS image built undet TOPS? : : Is it possible to boot this machine from a VAX? : I can't answer your questions directly, but I can tell you that ours was one of the few DEC-20 sites to have a DN200. There's some talk about it here: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html#kermit Ours was installed about 500 meters away from the machine room, connected by synchronous modems (or maybe a synchronous null modem, I'm not sure), and communicating with TOPS-20 via DECnet. It ran a version of RSX-11, but I can't remember which version, D maybe. It did not have a hard disk, so it must have booted over DECnet. The purpose of the DN200 was to support remote access to the DEC-20. In our case, it was in a remote terminal room. 32 terminals (DECwriters and CRTs) were to be connected to its serial ports, and it also had an LP20 drum printer. In fact, we wound up not using the serial ports since we already had something else (a Gandalf PACX IV) that worked better and more simply, but we did use the printer. We also had a number of DN20s, which were also PDP-11/34's. Each DEC-20 used its own DN20 as a DECnet front end, and this is how our DEC-20s were interconnected before the NIA20 (Ethernet) and CI came along. We also had connections to our departmental VMS and TOPS-20 systems, and to 8 or 10 other universities, including CMU, NYU, Case, etc, forming a large DECnet network, complete with intersite email, "telnet" sessions, and so on, that lasted 8 or 10 years. A separate DN20 provided an RJE (HASP) connection to our IBM mainframe. You could actually submit jobs in the form of virtual decks of cards (JCL sandwiches) from the DEC-20s to the mainframe, and get the results back as virtual 132-column printouts. The HASP DN20 also ran a form of RSX-11. So that's what the DN200 and DN20 were for, at least in the TOPS-20 world. The ANF-10 was something entirely different. It was the IMP interface, and I don't think it had anything in common with the DN20 or 200. It also cost a lot more, more than $50,000.00 as I recall. We didn't have one; by the time our DEC-20s joined the ARPANET, it was possible to do so through Ethernet. - Frank Article 6085 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!barn.net.com From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 DN200 Remote Front End? Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:00:25 -0400 Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <9o2ktl$4e$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.2 X-Original-Trace: 16 Sep 2001 15:00:25 -0400, 192.168.1.2 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6085 On 16 Sep 2001 16:44:37 GMT, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote: >The ANF-10 was something entirely different. It was the IMP interface, >and I don't think it had anything in common with the DN20 or 200. It also >cost a lot more, more than $50,000.00 as I recall. We didn't have one; >by the time our DEC-20s joined the ARPANET, it was possible to do so >through Ethernet. ANF-10 was NOT the IMP interface. That was the AN10, or the AN20 (depending on the cab and it's colour). ANF-10 (Software) was the link state routed network code that the -10 supported before there was DECnet. In the pre-DECnet days, DEC's data center was full of -10s, and almost every Manufacturing plant had a -10 for data processing. All of them were wired in one large network that was about 250 nodes, based out of Parker Street (PK1). The AN10 had a single 1822 interface (either local or remote) and was an I/O device connected directly to the -10 CPU. There was one on KL1279 and KL2102 in the marlboro lab. It was a hand built device, as demand was very, very low, and build by DAS manufacturing for Federal Systems. Somewhere I still have my copy of the 1822 interface spec.