Article 5391 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ix.netcom.com!nntp.ix.netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: BLISS-10 Date: 08 Jul 1999 01:26:32 GMT Organization: NETCOM On-line services Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <7legom$blq$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <7lic3a$m90@bonkers.taronga.com> <7lvbus$ol9@bonkers.taronga.com> Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: netcom16.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 07 8:26:32 PM CDT 1999 NNTP-Posting-User: alderson In-reply-to: peter@taronga.com's message of 7 Jul 1999 05:59:40 -0500 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5391 In article <7lvbus$ol9@bonkers.taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >GNU Emacs was hard to port to TOPS-20? Oh, the Irony! But why not use the real >thing... TOPS-20 is one of the few places it's available... Because the Real Thing is still a single-section program which can only edit a file that will map into its memory space. From time to time, I think about the project of making it use extended addressing, then I lie down till the feeling goes away... -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 4551 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: phr2001-nospam@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Paul Rubin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? References: <87vgo4mv6n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Date: 17 Apr 2001 16:54:05 -0700 Message-ID: <7xsnj7f5gi.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Organization: Nightsong/Fort GNOX Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 17 Apr 2001 17:02:52 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4551 Jim Thomas writes: > As one of the, I'm sure, many people who looked at this, I'd say it was > more the lack of a MIDAS assembler. EMACS itself was not too big. The > minimum macros needed to get started weren't all that big. But it wanted > the whole file in memory so there would have been a file size limit. Since > we had (well, still do :-) all sorts of limits anyway, I didn't see where > that was a real problem. But I never got around to writing my SPITBOL > program to convert the sources. I remember there was a doc file in the distribution that explained that getting emacs to run under bottoms-10 (as RMS liked to call it) would be very difficult. I don't remember specifics. Article 4560 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!budd From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 18 Apr 2001 16:40:12 GMT Organization: Boston University Computer Science Dept. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9bkg1c$n8a$1@news3.bu.edu> References: <87vgo4mv6n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 987612012 23818 128.197.12.3 (18 Apr 2001 16:40:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4560 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >As one of the, I'm sure, many people who looked at this, I'd say it was >more the lack of a MIDAS assembler. MIDAS ran on TOPS-10, it was used for MACLISP. I frequently used MIDAS on TOPS-10 (it would output .SAV files directly, as well as .REL files). I borrowed ITS TECO's terminal handling code for my version of FINE. A *REALLY* fun part was that in MIDAS you could XCT an arbitrary instruction using a pseudo-op. I used it to do GETTABs to scan the monitor's table of known SIXBIT terminal types to decide which terminals to build in support for! >EMACS itself was not too big. The minimum macros needed to get >started weren't all that big. But it wanted the whole file in memory >so there would have been a file size limit. Since we had (well, >still do :-) all sorts of limits anyway, I didn't see where that was >a real problem. But I never got around to writing my SPITBOL program >to convert the sources. >Nothead >ps - anyone have a copy of SPITBOL ?? Commercial versions of SPITBOL are available from Catspaw. I've done a free C port of Macro SNOBOL4, with SPITBOL and SITBOL extensions. See http://people.ne.mediaone.net/philbudne/snobol.html for information on both. -phil Article 4508 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? Date: 16 Apr 2001 20:36:05 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 18 Sender: alderson+news@panix2.panix.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 987467773 5785 166.84.0.227 (17 Apr 2001 00:36:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2001 00:36:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4508 Timothy Stark writes: > Some time ago, I had access to the real KL10 system at Galladet University. > It provide Emacs program for full-screen editing. I remember that command > was 'em; ' on a dot prompt. I was looking for Emacs for > TOPS-10/TOPS-20 but can't find it. TECO EMACS did not run on Tops-10, only on ITS and Tops-20. There was an EMACS lookalike called FINE ("FINE Is Not EMACS") for Tops-10. > Does anyone have a copy of Emacs (w/ sources as preferred)? That would be me. Even RMS agrees! -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC Article 4559 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!budd From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 18 Apr 2001 16:30:02 GMT Organization: Boston University Computer Science Dept. Lines: 140 Message-ID: <9bkfea$mt6$1@news3.bu.edu> References: X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 987611402 23462 128.197.12.3 (18 Apr 2001 16:30:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4559 In article , Timothy Stark wrote: >Hello folks: > >Some time ago, I had access to the real KL10 system at Galladet >University. It provide Emacs program for full-screen editing. >I remember that command was 'em; ' on a dot prompt. >I was looking for Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20 but can't find it. > >Does anyone have a copy of Emacs (w/ sources as preferred)? Full EMACS never ran on TOPS-10 -- It depended on memory mapping of files, which even in latter days, TOPS-10 never had (although it did get multiple GETSEG's at some point, which might have served). EMACS clones that did run on TOPS-10 were "FINE" (FINE Is Not Emacs), by Mike Kazar at C-MU. It was written in BLISS-10, and later sold to Unilogic, purveyors of Scribe. I have sources (I used to hack on it when I was at Stevens, my exposure to BLISS-10 made it possible for me to get a job at DEC, working on FORTRAN-10/20 when I dropped out of SIT), but the legal status of the sources is unclear. A closer clone of real EMACS was "Amis", written in Pascal in Sweden. Never saw sources to it. I have an .EXE of it from a tape image of KL1026's PUB: directory: 36352(36) <455> 1,2 27-Aug-82 pub:[1,6]amis.exe Ken Harrenstein (KLH, author of KLH10) wrote a portable emacs clone named "Elle" (Elle Looks Like Emacs) in C which indeed looked a lot like PDP10 EMACS. It's alleged to have worked on TOPS10 (under KCC?). I have sources, with conditionals for TOPS20 (under KCC), but none for TOPS10. ************ Does anyone have a clean, full, free distribution of KCC? The only one I've seen was butchered to run on Windoze, and missing stuff. Craig Finseth's list of EMACS implementations (http://www.finseth.com/~fin/emacs.html) has this; AMIS [toc] name: AMIS last changed/verified: 1994-12-20 original distribution: ? version: base language: Pascal implementation language: Pascal extension language: none scope of implementation: command set hardware/software requirements: VMS, Norsk Data, Tops10, RSTS organization/author: Stacken Computer Club c/o NADA S-100 44 Stockholm Sweden stacken@stacken.kth.se Note: the name is an abbreviation of "Anti-MISAER" (where "AE" is the "ae" glyph). "Misaer" is Swedish (svenska) for "piece of junk, or deep shit functionality" (translation provided by the person who told me about this) The name thus means "not a piece of junk." Tops10, RSTS, Norsk Data versions are free, send them a 1/2 inch, 2400-foot magnetic tape and return postage VMS version is $1000 US (the money supports their DEC10 museum) Addendum from Jesper Larsson Jesper.Larsson@dna.lth.se: This is not quite correct. First, if "misAEr" is the Swedish word, "AE" should not be the "ae" glyph (not used in Swedish -- maybe it's spelled that way in Norwegian), but an "a" with two dots above it. Secondly, this word actually means "destitution" or "penury". It is closely related to the English word "misery". [ I am not going to get in the middle of a how to translate Swedish to English issue here -- Craig ] ..... Elle [toc] name: Elle (Elle Looks Like Emacs) last changed/verified: 1994-12-20 original distribution: ? version: 4.1g base language: C implementation language: C extension language: none scope of implementation: command set hardware/software requirements: UNIX, MINIX, TOPS-20, TOPS-10 (!) organization/author: Ken Harrenstein c/o SRI International 333 Ravenswood Ave Menlo Park CA 94025 USA klh@nisc.sri.com free, anonymous FTP from nisc.sri.com in pub/klh/elle.tar (or elle.tar.Z) .... Elle [toc] name: Elle (Elle Looks Like Emacs) last changed/verified: 1994-12-20 original distribution: ? version: 4.1g base language: C implementation language: C extension language: none scope of implementation: command set hardware/software requirements: UNIX, MINIX, TOPS-20, TOPS-10 (!) organization/author: Ken Harrenstein c/o SRI International 333 Ravenswood Ave Menlo Park CA 94025 USA klh@nisc.sri.com free, anonymous FTP from nisc.sri.com in pub/klh/elle.tar (or elle.tar.Z) .... FINE [toc] name: FINE (Fine Is Not Emacs) last changed/verified: 2000-11-22 original distribution: 1980? version: base language: BLISS-10 implementation language: BLISS-10 extension language: none scope of implementation: command set hardware/software requirements: PDP-10 organization/author: Mike Kazar Carnegie Mellon University USA no longer available Article 4563 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!news.kth.se!not-for-mail From: Johnny Eriksson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? Date: 18 Apr 2001 19:00:32 +0200 Lines: 13 Sender: bygg@chicken.stacken.kth.se Message-ID: References: <9bkfea$mt6$1@news3.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chicken.stacken.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4563 budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) writes: > A closer clone of real EMACS was "Amis", written in Pascal in Sweden. > Never saw sources to it. I have an .EXE of it from a tape image of > KL1026's PUB: directory: > > 36352(36) <455> 1,2 27-Aug-82 pub:[1,6]amis.exe It is on one of the 7.04 tapes, complete with sources. I'm one of the offenders that wrote the thing in the first place. --Johnny Article 4566 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!uab.ericsson.se!news.sics.se!not-for-mail From: Per Danielsson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:45:24 +0200 Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3ADDD2B4.27E81445@nospam.nospam> References: <9bkfea$mt6$1@news3.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: titan.sics.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: not.sics.se 987615929 10553 193.10.66.218 (18 Apr 2001 17:45:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@not.sics.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2001 17:45:29 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4566 Phil Budne wrote: > > A closer clone of real EMACS was "Amis", written in Pascal in Sweden. A design goal was to emulate EMACS as closely as possible (given the constraints TOPS-10 and PASCAL, although a small part of it was written in MACRO-10). Whenever one of us questioned a design decision, the rest of us replied "Because EMACS does it that way!". We even made a small sign with that text to wave in order to save talking ... PD -- Per Danielsson pd (at) sics.se Swedish Institute of Computer Science, PO Box 1263, SE-164 29 KISTA, SWEDEN N59.24.20, E17.56.53 "Why not? Yeah." Article 4582 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-191 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emacs for TOPS-10/TOPS-20? Date: Thu, 19 Apr 01 07:58:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9bmee7$jjk$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9bkfea$mt6$1@news3.bu.edu> <3ADDD2B4.27E81445@nospam.nospam> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYCpCUoBrHlF4X+cXEftfmqOM49cbZ7V1NKv92inD6HyuZbGFAS/9Lf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Apr 2001 10:25:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4582 In article <3ADDD2B4.27E81445@nospam.nospam>, Per Danielsson wrote: >Phil Budne wrote: >> >> A closer clone of real EMACS was "Amis", written in Pascal in Sweden. > >A design goal was to emulate EMACS as closely as possible (given the >constraints TOPS-10 and PASCAL, although a small part of it was >written in MACRO-10). >Whenever one of us questioned a design decision, the rest of us replied >"Because EMACS does it that way!". We even made a small sign with that >text to wave in order to save talking ... ROTFLMAO. What a wonderful idea!!! /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.