Article 4676 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: The "Here Is" key
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:30:45 -0500
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You are telling me that IT WAS ALL YOUR FAULT!
Now that I have you attention, I should explain<G>.
Many years ago, a DecSystem-10 was the first
computer that I, personally, was ever responsible
for purchasing. Not that I paid for it out-of-pocket,
but I was the techy who basically made the choice.

It was CPU#14, if I remember rightly, and it was installed
in Toronto ... about the fourth or fifth 10 in Canada and
the first commercial one ... the others were all universities
or government.

After putting it in, the very first program I ended up writing
for it was a program to analyse all that data you put out. If
I remember rightly, it was a total hodge-podge of miscellaneous
figures, each one in a completely different format ... does
that sound about right?
;<)


jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <794d10$6im$1@antiochus.ultra.net>...
>[I'm breaking my personal rule about x-posting...I hope the
>   10 people find the story interesting]
>
>In article <78kj2f$gab$3@strato.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>In article <78khsr$n73$1@news.igs.net>,
>>   "Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com> wrote:
>>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <78kff5$9j5$2@strato.ultra.net>...
>>>
>>>>I can assure you that I never, never said "There Went my days'
>>>>work".  It was always appropriately laced with more precise
>>>>expressions.
>>>
>>>
>>>Really?  I always said politely "darn".
>>
>>That word was what I did to socks.
>>
>>>  Then I quietly
>>>rebooted, and did it over again.  Anybody that says
>>>otherwise is a *!@#$%^& liar.
>>>
>>I have a story about that but it is just a tad off topic
>>even though it happened at work.  Wanna hear it?
>
>
>One of my goals (when I went to work for DEC) was to improve the data
>gathering of computer usage so that cross-charging by the bean counters
>didn't require a system's analyst; all the data recorded by TOPS-10
>was in mixed mode--binary, decimal, octal, SIXBIT, ASCII, etc. and
>splathered all through a file(s) non-sequentially.  It took me
>six years to get to the right place at the right time to address
>the problem.
>
>Over those years, DEC's customer forum called DECUS always had a
>session on accounting.  I was the only person in the corporation
>who was willing to do the project.  Now, this was the first (and,
>I believe, the last) time  customers were included in the nitty-gritty
>of the design work.   We invited customers to our brainstorming
>sessions with the developers.
>
>When we finally decided on a design of the data to be captured,
>I was told I had to take it to the customers at a DECUS session
>before any implementation work was to be done.  The project had
>become so emotional that DEC didn't want to spend any time
>implementing a design that would cause more headaches; it was
>willing to live the current one since it was so familiar.  It
>didn't want to have to find new remedies with a new headache.
>
>The project's name was called USAGE.
>
>So I had to prepare and give a talk descibing the design.
>One of the constraints was that I was not allowed
>to swear (another was that I had to wear a dress, ugh!).
>Jim used to brag that my language would put a longshoreman to
>shame.  So, as a consequence, I "practiced" not swearing for
>one month before the talk.  Boy, was that hard!
>
>The week before the talk, our cost center manager and Jim had
>a meeting with me to go over the game plan.  I was worried about
>my propensity for forgetting myself and letting loose (computer
>usage data gathering was one of the most controversial subjects
>that our customers had with us).  The cost
>center manager understood that I had all this pentup excitablility.
>After much discussion, Jim and he came up with a phrase that was
>acceptable.  He gave me permission to use the words, "Sit on it
>and rotate" if I had a real problem with a customer during
>the talk and wanted to use the word f*** in my language. This
>phrase became a source of great humor and kidding for weeks
>after that.
>
>I wore a dress; I gave the talk.  There were a few difficult
>customers including the chairman who was actively not chairing;
>he spent his time attacking the design even though he was one of
>the customer guests at the internal design meetings.
>I gave the most difficult customers nicknames (I have difficulty
>remembering real names for some reason).  One was Springy; he
>kept springing up on his feet with objections and comments about
>every 2 minutes.  One was Greybeard; he had a grey beard and
>seemed to be pretty reasonable but vocal.  Another
>was Blackbeard who had a black beard but was a shithead.  I
>won't mention my name for the chairman.
>
>Oh, yea.  I managed to get through that meeting (and they
>scheduled a second one which is unprecedented for later
>that week) without swearing once, and I didn't even think
>about using the approved phrase.  I did say crap once, though.
>
>The second meeting was scheduled for Friday afternoon, the last
>day of the convention.  I wore pants (but not jeans).  Now,
>the customers were tired (thank the gods); we certainly
>were tired and, although the meeting lasted for an hour and a half,
>the oomph was gone from all the objections.  So Jim Flemming, Don
>Todd, and I finally left.  I drove them from the Cape (Cod) swearing
>a blue streak just to get all that expression out of my system.  Since
>Don and I lived in the same town, our first stop was at Jim's house.
>There was a strange car in the driveway.  Jim went in, came out again,
>and said it was a cousin.  I didn't hear cousin--I heard customer.
>As I crawled back into the car, I said, "Oh, no.  I'm not going to
>deal with any more customers; I'm not all f***ed out yet."  This
>comment had been edited so that customers won't be offended :-).
>That one caused even more hilarity when Jim told the story at work.
>
>Just as a note, a few years later, Springy applied for a job but used his
>real name.  The project leader passed the resume by Jim just as a formality
>asking if Jim knew anything about the guy.  Jim said, "Why that's Springy!"
>The guy didn't get hired.   Springy had demonstrated an odd notion about
>what timesharing should do during my talk.  He wanted all processing
>to stop completely every time data gathering was done and recorded.
>Somehow, we couldn't convince him that data gathering required
>executing instructions; therefore, processing couldn't be stopped.
>
>/BAH
>
>
>
>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.




Article 4678 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: The "Here Is" key
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Date: 2 Feb 1999 01:31:02 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
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Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) wrote:
: "Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com> replied to BAH's story about USAGE:
: > You are telling me that IT WAS ALL YOUR FAULT!
: [...]
: > After putting it in, the very first program I ended up writing
: > for it was a program to analyse all that data you put out. If
: > I remember rightly, it was a total hodge-podge of miscellaneous
: > figures, each one in a completely different format ... does
: > that sound about right?

: I think you're talking about what existed *before* BAH wrote USAGE.
: In fact, I think that was the very motivation for it.

That's the way I remember it. I do recall being shown a dump from the
old style accounting information showing that "magically" the cty had
migrated to my terminal and that various other unauthorized actions had
occured (in my absence of course :-). I was only a part-time student 
operator and wasn't supposed to understand or use a priviledged account...
--
 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer to be played
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | in the air, the sky would be green" 


Article 4681 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: The "Here Is" key
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 11:33:07 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <qh90eh8yed.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
   Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>"Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com> replied to BAH's story about USAGE:
>> You are telling me that IT WAS ALL YOUR FAULT!
>[...]
>> After putting it in, the very first program I ended up writing
>> for it was a program to analyse all that data you put out. If
>> I remember rightly, it was a total hodge-podge of miscellaneous
>> figures, each one in a completely different format ... does
>> that sound about right?
>
>I think you're talking about what existed *before* BAH wrote USAGE.
>In fact, I think that was the very motivation for it.

Yup.  Those files were called FACT files.  I got really
good at "fixing" them using FILDDT.  The reason the USAGE
files were so damn controversial is that we switched the data
type to all ASCII.  What a hullaballoo.  See.  In order to
bill computer usage, the computing center had to hire a systems
programmer just to deal with the raw data.  After our implementation,
a COBOL programmer could be hired (at 1/3 the salary) to do the
programming.  The managers of these systems programmers quietly
took us aside and thanked us because the managers would rather
put their systems programmers to better use.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 4683 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: The "Here Is" key
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:09:24 -0500
Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <796pvk$bdj$3@ligarius.ultra.net>...
>Wow, that was a young one if your serial number recall is correct.
>Can you tell me the customer name?


I do not see why not ... it was Griffith Lab's in Toronto.

>Those were the FACT files and I hope you found the program
>FACTPR that converted the mish-mash into SIXBIT.  You were too
>young (or too old, depending on one's p.o.v.) to have dealt
>with USAGE files (I put all of them in ASCII).  Did you discover
>the trick of "fixing" the data using FILDDT?


Actually, it was so long ago, that I do not remember that much about
it.  I think I wrote a macro-10 program to convert it all to flat ASCII,
then a Cobol program to analyse it.  I seem to remember timestamps
and stuff as 36 bit numbers.  Long time ago, now.





Article 4689 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Emacs-style command line editing in TOPS-20
Date: 5 Feb 1999 22:28:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) writes:
>In the Spring, 1985 issue of the University of Chicago Computation
>Center Newsletter, there's an announcement of a new TOPS-20 feature
>that keeps a history of recent input and lets you use Emacs-style
>commands to go back to and modify the earlier commands.  Can anyone
>tell me whether this is a local modification or a standard feature?
>I'm also curious at what level this was implemented -- that is, is
>it available in all programs, or only in the EXEC?

I dunno about TOPS-20, but the sort-of-TOPS-10 system at the Stanford
AI Lab had intra-line editing built into the keyboard scanner in the
monitor (so available in all programs), and around 1976 Martin Frost
and I hacked that code into an otherwise normal TOPS-10 system at
L'Institut de Recherche et Coordination Acoustique/Musique in Paris.


Article 4691 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Emacs-style command line editing in TOPS-20
Date: 05 Feb 1999 23:05:57 -0800
Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc.
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IIRC, the "standard" stanford (?) exec extensions included history and the
ability to access the history with emacs-like commands (^P, ^N), but NOT the
ability to do intra-line editing with emacs-like commands.  Trying to mix
intra-line editting (or any kind of single-character wakeup) with COMND%
would have been challanging.  I can think of a few different ways to try it
that I didn't think of last time (my first big tops20 project - port SAIL's
news system to tops20.  NS had this parser where some commands would act on
a single keystroke, while others let you type a whole line (with editting
being desirable.)  I don't think I'd use COMND% at all if I had to do that
again, come to think of it.)

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)


Article 4694 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Emacs-style command line editing in TOPS-20
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:29:15 -0500
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
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Bill Westfield wrote:
> 
> IIRC, the "standard" stanford (?) exec extensions included history and the
> ability to access the history with emacs-like commands (^P, ^N), but NOT the
> ability to do intra-line editing with emacs-like commands.  ...

I recall the EXECs at Rutgers had optional editing within single lines (both
EMACS and something else).  So did some other site's EXEC (some doc
differences - possibly a different implementation).  I don't know what site(s)
wrote the code, vs. who were recipients from elsewhere.


>... Trying to mix
> intra-line editting (or any kind of single-character wakeup) with COMND%
> would have been challanging.  I can think of a few different ways to try it
> that I didn't think of last time (my first big tops20 project - port SAIL's
> news system to tops20.  NS had this parser where some commands would act on
> a single keystroke, while others let you type a whole line (with editting
> being desirable.)  I don't think I'd use COMND% at all if I had to do that
> again, come to think of it.)

As I recall, a friend hacked ITS TECO-20 (and therefore MIT EMACS) at DEC
Marlboro to use TEXTI% for input.  Under normal conditions it set the break
mask to anything that wasn't self-inserting, and messed with the control
character output control word (CCOC).  This was partially an experiment to
reduce per-character wakeups of the user code.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 4695 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Emacs-style command line editing in TOPS-20
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:01:13 -0500
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
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Message-ID: <36BF5099.20513145@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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"Alan H. Martin" wrote:
> 
> Bill Westfield wrote:
> >
> > IIRC, the "standard" stanford (?) exec extensions included history and the
> > ability to access the history with emacs-like commands (^P, ^N), but NOT the
> > ability to do intra-line editing with emacs-like commands.  ...
> 
> I recall the EXECs at Rutgers had optional editing within single lines (both
> EMACS and something else).  So did some other site's EXEC (some doc
> differences - possibly a different implementation).  I don't know what site(s)
> wrote the code, vs. who were recipients from elsewhere.

Ah, here's where at least one version (which supported EMACS and SOS Alter
mode) came from:

"
; New module for the command history stuff.
;
; Copyright (C) 1983, 1984 by Philip Almquist
; All rights reserved
;
;	This module has been created to centralize the expanding mass
; of command history stuff in Clexec.  Some of what appears here has
; been moved from other modules (mostly Execsu), and the editor and
; related stuff are new.  The editor is based on the UTEXAS-20 editor
; by Billy Brown (which in turn claims to be based on the "Yale Exec
; Command Editor" by ???).  The editor has been modified by Vince
; Fuller, Mike Blackwell, and myself.  C2CBUF is a stripped down version
; of a routine used by Chris Ryland's command macro facility.  The rest
; of the code is mine.
"


> >... Trying to mix
> > intra-line editting (or any kind of single-character wakeup) with COMND%
> > would have been challanging.  I can think of a few different ways to try it
> > that I didn't think of last time (my first big tops20 project - port SAIL's
> > news system to tops20.  NS had this parser where some commands would act on
> > a single keystroke, while others let you type a whole line (with editting
> > being desirable.)  I don't think I'd use COMND% at all if I had to do that
> > again, come to think of it.)
> 
> As I recall, a friend hacked ITS TECO-20 (and therefore MIT EMACS) at DEC
> Marlboro to use TEXTI% for input.  Under normal conditions it set the break
> mask to anything that wasn't self-inserting, and messed with the control
> character output control word (CCOC).  This was partially an experiment to
> reduce per-character wakeups of the user code.

I'm told that the TECO work was done at MIT, not DEC, but that it depended on
adding an echo flag to TEXTI's interface.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 4696 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Emacs-style command line editing in TOPS-20
Date: 08 Feb 1999 19:57:16 -0800
Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc.
Lines: 14
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    I'm told that the TECO work was done at MIT, not DEC, but that 
    it depended on adding an echo flag to TEXTI's interface.

I think Stanford again (or perhaps also.)  That particular hack (the
stanford version) was one of mine (the trick was not to echo characters
that were in the break set.)

I don't know that we were ever able to tell whether it made much of a
difference - there seemed to be subjective improvement in overall system
performance, but getting stats to prove better performance was difficult.

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)


Article 4703 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
> I wonder if there's a web site with all the old DECUS tapes..

Depends on what you call "all".  Certainly, most of the
TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 tapes are available by anonymous
FTP from xkleten.paulallen.com - just cd to PS:<DECUS>
and start browsing!

Be aware that many (most?) Unix- and Windows-based FTP
clients lack support for 36-bit-specific transfers.  Seems
a shame - especially as just a few years ago all the major
FTP sites were PDP-10's.  In addition, some Windows-based
FTP clients won't let you use "<" and ">" as directory
delimiters.

> and any
> emulator software to make that stuff run on PCs..

Can't help you there.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd                 Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


Article 4705 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Forbes ASAP picture of LCG machine
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:41 -0800
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4705

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Pat Farrell wrote:
> The current Forbes ASAP has an article on big iron, with pictures of
> assorted important stuff. They list the DEC KL-10, but to my
> eyes, the console looks more like a KI than a KL. Mostly
> because the KLs I used didn't have anything but the silly
> 11 ...

Yes, the picture is of a KI10 and not a KL10.  If you look carefully, you
can see the paper tape reader on top of the console!

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State.	*
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.		*
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 4714 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!uwvax!uchinews!not-for-mail
From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Subject: Re: Why ^U?
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu
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Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

> Why is ^U the primordial DEC line-kill keystroke, and where did it
> first appear?

I don't know when it first appeared, but it was in use on the PDP-6
by 1966, according to a table in the Proceedings of the Australian
Computer Conference (p. 251) from that year.  Wasn't the PDP-5 the
first DEC computer to use ASCII?

The original (pre-lowercase) ASCII standard defines ^U as "error,"
which makes more sense than the "NAK" that replaced it in the revised
standard.

eric


Article 5083 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:42:27 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <37427bf1.59778804@news.iol.ie> <3731D03B.203987C6@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7guich$uo9$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <p98mccabe-0705990749100001@r-103.64.alltel.net> <7h1akj$n81$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <37344E32.C450E8AC@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7h1kpe$jqt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h3qda$ns8$3@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7h3vli$roa$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h47e0$g84$2@zingo.tninet.se> <3736167e$0$18684@mojo.crosslink.net> <7h6f12$301$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37370562$0$18685@mojo.crosslink.net>
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"John Gilmer" <gilmer@crosslink.net> wrote:


| 
| Yes it does!  Especially in tech sales, engineers like to think that they
| are working with fellow professionals.   You expect the sales force to be up
| to date, professional, and honest.  When they aren't you stop trusting them.
| 
| In sales, the big deal happens when a company says:  OK, what do I really
| need!   This can be a license to print money.   It happens to ALL sales
| people and groups sometime in their career.   The organization has two
| choices at this time:  1) They can take the money and run and milk the
| current customer for all they can get (this was the DEC approach); or 2)
| they can  look after the customer's interest and find that the customers
| will help them out when times aren't quite so good.

| 
| Come on, DEC got greedy!   I remember looking at the add ons for the UNIX
| workstations they sold.   The disks, etc. were almost 10 times as expensive
| as WinTel stuff.   Nobody was looking more than one year ahead.   I put DEC
| in the same class as Eastern Airlines:  both companies decided to screw over
| their customers and both companies had staff that told customers you are
| lucky we even let you take your money.   They are both history!   God bless
| America.
| 
| JLG
| 
| 
Hmm, I have a rather interesting take on the situation, based on some
experiences that would push things up a level higher than sales.

Mangement - "new" management.

Things didn't seem to go badly wrong for DEC until the Defenestration of Olsen
& Co.

OK, Ken *should* have realized that the market was changing when people were
making off with officially obsolete low-number PDPs as "home computers" but it
was the *new* (then would-be) management that seemed to be behind things like
making the company a one-computer-line-fits-all outfit, cutting back research
and development (early kills included Jupiter and the Trilogy consortium after
the initial project turned into the Big Flame) getting the IRS to nuke one of
the company's (and Ken and the Bells') most expensive and wonderful projects -
the original Digital Computer Museum at Marlborough (IRS denied the project
501(c)3 educational not-for-profit status on the grounds it was a company
lobby, rather than the company donating hundreds of thousands of dollars in
time, space and equipment in a situation that only created headaches - I
suspect after an *inside* complaint though I have absolutely no evidence - we
do know that Gordon Bell went soon after the Defenestration, the historic
collection was tossed out of Boston, and both ended up on the Left Coast)

The "old" DEC gave away manuals and created the engine to give away software,
had a multi-platform line with gear to suit everyone's needs (from 12- to
36-bits + modules and industrial controllers) had folks who were ready to drop
anything to provide customers with service and a sense of humor.

The "new" DEC became a better-dressed IBM with a narrower line of products and
customer loyalty to the product.

Sorry, but the God Bless America stuff allowed a few greedy people to destroy
a great company that should have had some protection - and the greedheads
ended up making out best.

					dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 5086 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "David Sallitt" <david.sallitt@mail.tesco.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:19:42 +0100
Organization: Tesco ISP
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References: <37427bf1.59778804@news.iol.ie>
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	 <7h1kpe$jqt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h3qda$ns8$3@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
	 <7h3vli$roa$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h47e0$g84$2@zingo.tninet.se>
	 <3736167e$0$18684@mojo.crosslink.net> <7h6f12$301$1@cubacola.tninet.se>
	 <37370562$0$18685@mojo.crosslink.net>
	 <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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I was working for DEC as an engineer on DECsystem10's and 20's for over 9 
nine years through the 80s.

Being a Large Computer Group (LCG) engineer was like being a member of an
elite.  We had to know the software, we had much closer relationships with
the customers and we went to the States to be trained.  We got to see the
museum, both when it was in the Marlboro plant and when it moved to the
wharf in Boston.

After the 10's demise, things went downhill fast in DEC.  The engineer's job
was deskilled to the point where you were just the last link in the
logistics chain, so I moved off into project management and services sales.
Every quarter some new remedy was going to put the company back in shape,
but it never worked.  I eventually left with around 2000 other UK employees
in the April '94 "Night of the long knives".  Worries about the future were
tempered with a great feeling of a weight being lifted.

Alpha was going to save the day, of course.  But nobody seemed to catch on
the fact that customers need more than hot technology.  Unix and NT became
flavours of the month, but a customer is moving from VMS or Tops to Unix or
NT, choosing the box it runs on the one of the least considerations.  The
impression I get is that they still haven't figured that out.  And now
Compaq seems to be going the same way.

I remember when this industry was fun.  It stopped being that way for me the
day the 10s/20s died.
---------------
David P Sallitt
david.sallitt@tesco.net
(who still has his DEC engineer's toolkit...)


Article 5089 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Wed, 12 May 99 09:55:08 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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References: <37344E32.C450E8AC@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7h1kpe$jqt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h3qda$ns8$3@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7h3vli$roa$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h47e0$g84$2@zingo.tninet.se> <3736167e$0$18684@mojo.crosslink.net> <7h6f12$301$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37370562$0$18685@mojo.crosslink.net> <Pine.NXT.4.20.9905101054590.2042-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
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In article 
<Pine.NXT.4.20.9905101054590.2042-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
   Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Gilmer wrote:
>> I put DEC
>> in the same class as Eastern Airlines:  both companies 
>> decided to screw over
>> their customers and both companies had staff that told customers you are
>> lucky we even let you take your money.   They are both history!
>
>Yup.  From time to time, a company will refuse to sell the customer what
>the customer wants to buy, and instead presumes to lecture the customer on
>what the customer should buy.  When this happens to a company, it's on its
>way out.
<snip>

There is a juggling act involved with this, though.  There were
many times that a customer would come to us with his "solution"
which wouldn't work for a general distribution.  Most of the
time, a customer was solving a symptom rather than the real
problem.  After all, a particular customer only has the
experience of his site; we had the experience of all sites
(that was our job).

On the other hand, Digital was not selling anything (from
our point of view).  Jim had customers (who knew him from
DECUS) calling him personally and begging him to just point 
them to a salesman that would cut the order.  There wasn't
any other way to buy hardware back then--one had to have
the salesman in those days to initiate paperwork.  We didn't get
orders until the mini sales force were allowed to sell PDP-10s.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5090 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Wed, 12 May 99 10:11:03 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <7hbqd0$b7t$4@antiochus.ultra.net>
References: <37344E32.C450E8AC@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7h1kpe$jqt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h3qda$ns8$3@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7h3vli$roa$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h47e0$g84$2@zingo.tninet.se> <3736167e$0$18684@mojo.crosslink.net> <7h6f12$301$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37370562$0$18685@mojo.crosslink.net> <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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[I wish people would set their margins short of 80 characters
so that prefixing doesn't cause wrap-around...I'm getting tired
of reformatting by hand--that's why I stopped using AOL]

In article <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
   david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>"John Gilmer" <gilmer@crosslink.net> wrote:
>
>
>| 
>| Yes it does!  Especially in tech sales, engineers like to think that 
they
>| are working with fellow professionals.   You expect the sales force to 
be up
>| to date, professional, and honest.  When they aren't you stop trusting 
them.
>| 
>| In sales, the big deal happens when a company says:  OK, what do I 
really
>| need!   This can be a license to print money.   It happens to ALL sales
>| people and groups sometime in their career.   The organization has two
>| choices at this time:  1) They can take the money and run and milk the
>| current customer for all they can get (this was the DEC approach); or 2)
>| they can  look after the customer's interest and find that the customers
>| will help them out when times aren't quite so good.
>
>| 
>| Come on, DEC got greedy!   I remember looking at the add ons for the 
UNIX
>| workstations they sold.   The disks, etc. were almost 10 times as 
expensive
>| as WinTel stuff.   Nobody was looking more than one year ahead.   I put 
DEC
>| in the same class as Eastern Airlines:  both companies decided to screw 
over
>| their customers and both companies had staff that told customers you are
>| lucky we even let you take your money.   They are both history!   God 
bless
>| America.
>| 
>| JLG
>| 
>| 
>Hmm, I have a rather interesting take on the situation, based on some
>experiences that would push things up a level higher than sales.
>
>Mangement - "new" management.
>
>Things didn't seem to go badly wrong for DEC until the 
>Defenestration of Olsen & Co.

Nope.  Things were going badly already.

>
>OK, Ken *should* have realized that the market was changing 
>when people were making off with officially obsolete low-number 
>PDPs as "home computers" but it was the *new* (then would-be) 
>management that seemed to be behind things like
>making the company a one-computer-line-fits-all outfit, ...

That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.
 
>cutting back research and development (early kills included 
>Jupiter and the Trilogy consortium after
>the initial project turned into the Big Flame) ...

No.  Those were the last.  Research was cut back in the early 70s
because the number crunchers insisted that it was more competitive
(other companies didn't have as high a percentage of earnings as
DEC did at that time--it was a side effect of being publicly owned).
And the beginnings of cancellations that were a mistake happened
in between 1977 and 1979--both hardware and software.

> ...getting the IRS to nuke one of the company's (and Ken 
>and the Bells') most expensive and wonderful projects -
>the original Digital Computer Museum at Marlborough (IRS 
>denied the project
>501(c)3 educational not-for-profit status on the grounds it was a company
>lobby, rather than the company donating hundreds of thousands of 
>dollars in
>time, space and equipment in a situation that only created headaches - I
>suspect after an *inside* complaint though I have absolutely no evidence - 


I didn't know that the museum went away because of the IRS.  But
I'll tell you, we viewed it as getting our noses rubbed in it.  
All that money being spent on a bloody museums instead of a 
decent CPU, peripherals or software.

>we
>do know that Gordon Bell went soon after the Defenestration, the historic
>collection was tossed out of Boston, and both ended up on the Left Coast)

His leaving was good news for us.  But, by then, it was too late.

>
>The "old" DEC gave away manuals and created the engine to 
>give away software,

I don't remember DEC giving away anything.

>had a multi-platform line with gear to suit everyone's needs (from 12- to
>36-bits + modules and industrial controllers) had folks who were ready to 
drop
>anything to provide customers with service and a sense of humor.

Yup.

>
>The "new" DEC became a better-dressed IBM with a narrower 
>line of products and customer loyalty to the product.

I blame it more on the straight-jacketing due to the MBA
school of thought.  
>
>Sorry, but the God Bless America stuff allowed a few greedy 
>people to destroy a great company that should have had 
>some protection - and the greedheads ended up making out best.

No.  It wasn't greed that started it.  There do exist people
who have to destroy what others build.  If you want to
bring psychology into it, I would say it was jealousy.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5093 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail
From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Living legends
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:43:07 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <373ad25c.1029604101@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


| In article <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
|    david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
|

| >OK, Ken *should* have realized that the market was changing 
| >when people were making off with officially obsolete low-number 
| >PDPs as "home computers" but it was the *new* (then would-be) 
| >management that seemed to be behind things like
| >making the company a one-computer-line-fits-all outfit, ...
| 
| That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.

OK, another misquote properly attributed (and thanks, I hate urban legends) -
why he went to Microsoft and why he was working on smaller/faster back in his
CMU days.

|  
| >cutting back research and development (early kills included 
| >Jupiter and the Trilogy consortium after
| >the initial project turned into the Big Flame) ...
| 
| No.  Those were the last.  Research was cut back in the early 70s
| because the number crunchers insisted that it was more competitive
| (other companies didn't have as high a percentage of earnings as
| DEC did at that time--it was a side effect of being publicly owned).
| And the beginnings of cancellations that were a mistake happened
| in between 1977 and 1979--both hardware and software.

Was going too public was the start of the crisis? (as in New York Times Inc.
is public but it'll be another generation before the Ochs/Sulzburger families
lose 51%+ stock ownership)

| 
| > ...getting the IRS to nuke one of the company's (and Ken 
| >and the Bells') most expensive and wonderful projects -
| >the original Digital Computer Museum at Marlborough (IRS 
| >denied the project
| >501(c)3 educational not-for-profit status on the grounds it was a company
| >lobby, rather than the company donating hundreds of thousands of 
| >dollars in
| >time, space and equipment in a situation that only created headaches - I
| >suspect after an *inside* complaint though I have absolutely no evidence - 
| 
| 
| I didn't know that the museum went away because of the IRS.  But
| I'll tell you, we viewed it as getting our noses rubbed in it.  
| All that money being spent on a bloody museums instead of a 
| decent CPU, peripherals or software.

The IRS was told by *someone* with a grudge that the museum should be stripped
of tax-exempt status because it served the benefit of a particular company not
the public good - this is an extremely rare action. I've been a reporter
covering outright charity fraud 501(c) cases for years and I only know of this
happening once, after I proved a guy (through his fund raising companies) was
making something like $100,000 for each 20 cents he turned over to the charity
he was allegedly operating - the charity itself, like the museum, retained
status after it was given to the duped organizers.

To DEC and other right-coast computer fans, the museum was Mecca, a revived
part of the old DEC spirit (see below) why we on the outside loved DEC -
though I can understand how it must have felt from the inside.

| 
| >we
| >do know that Gordon Bell went soon after the Defenestration, the historic
| >collection was tossed out of Boston, and both ended up on the Left Coast)
| 
| His leaving was good news for us.  But, by then, it was too late.

I'm still not sure, as an outsider, whether getting rid of someone with his
flare was a good idea - maybe he should have been sent off in a corner with a
team of his own, but...

| 
| >
| >The "old" DEC gave away manuals and created the engine to 
| >give away software,
| 
| I don't remember DEC giving away anything.

I never paid for a DEC manual until 1972, when the multi-color decsystem-10
software manuals appeared - and even then, company reps were fairly free at
giving them away to students. I had a long shelf of DEC information books
(unfortunately many given away) that were freebies, going back to the original
black hard-bound module catalog/use guide.

DEC was also free with "obsolete" hardware to both non-profits and individuals
through the '80s

DECUS provided the platform for free software distribution, while most basic
DEC software was "free" with the purchase of a machine (compare with IBM's
imfamous licences)

| 
| >had a multi-platform line with gear to suit everyone's needs (from 12- to
| >36-bits + modules and industrial controllers) had folks who were ready to 
| drop
| >anything to provide customers with service and a sense of humor.
| 
| Yup.
| 
| >
| >The "new" DEC became a better-dressed IBM with a narrower 
| >line of products and customer loyalty to the product.
| 
| I blame it more on the straight-jacketing due to the MBA
| school of thought.  

exactly!

| >
| >Sorry, but the God Bless America stuff allowed a few greedy 
| >people to destroy a great company that should have had 
| >some protection - and the greedheads ended up making out best.
| 
| No.  It wasn't greed that started it.  There do exist people
| who have to destroy what others build.  If you want to
| bring psychology into it, I would say it was jealousy.
| 
| /BAH
| 
| Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

OK, as I said, I'm looking at this from an outsider's pov. My first experience
with the "new" DEC came in about 1981, when several DECfolks wanted to give
LIRICS (the LI high school project) a pair of KL-10s that had been sitting in
MR-1 or 2 (the one without the museum) and were about to be decommissioned.

DEC Service, Huntington, NY blew the deal because "the machines had not been
maintained by DEC Service since their installation" and refused to support.

The machines were scrapped because something that large couldn't be made to
fly out the door to a non-nfp like me. (I stood to inherit a KA, something,
which at the time, would have caused me great grief in the long run when my
parents saw the electric bills)

						dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 5094 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Living legends
Date: Thu, 13 May 99 13:02:40 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <373ad25c.1029604101@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
   david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>| In article <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>|    david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>|
>
>| >OK, Ken *should* have realized that the market was changing 
>| >when people were making off with officially obsolete low-number 
>| >PDPs as "home computers" but it was the *new* (then would-be) 
>| >management that seemed to be behind things like
>| >making the company a one-computer-line-fits-all outfit, ...
>| 
>| That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.
>
>OK, another misquote properly attributed (and thanks, 
>I hate urban legends) - why he went to Microsoft and why 
>he was working on smaller/faster back in his CMU days.

Well, there's more to the story than just the quote.  Bell
gave a speech that had that phrase in it.  The third and
fourth level of managers heard the speech but only listened
to the phrase and started implementing it.  The first we
(those in Marlboro which was the mainframe building) heard
of it was the decisions getting made based on that phrase.
Our manager got hold of the tape and we listened (or, at
least, I listened) to what Bell actually said.  Putting
the phrase back into the orginal context implied the 
exact opposite of what all those idiots were organizing,
namely, one operating system.  

Bell usually did say things that didn't really have anything
to do with how the business should be run.  However, up until
that time, people were sensible enough not to act on them.

>
>|  
>| >cutting back research and development (early kills included 
>| >Jupiter and the Trilogy consortium after
>| >the initial project turned into the Big Flame) ...
>| 
>| No.  Those were the last.  Research was cut back in the early 70s
>| because the number crunchers insisted that it was more competitive
>| (other companies didn't have as high a percentage of earnings as
>| DEC did at that time--it was a side effect of being publicly owned).
>| And the beginnings of cancellations that were a mistake happened
>| in between 1977 and 1979--both hardware and software.
>
>Was going too public was the start of the crisis? (as 
>in New York Times Inc. is public but it'll be another 
>generation before the Ochs/Sulzburger families
>lose 51%+ stock ownership)

I really don't know.  I still don't understand why limiting
R&D of a company is a big deal with major stockholders--
especially when they don't seem to blink an eyelid when
money is used to gild the lily.  

I don't even know if the stockholders had anything to do with
it; it could have just been the bean counters' rule learned
from idealisms found in text books.

>
>| 
>| > ...getting the IRS to nuke one of the company's (and Ken 
>| >and the Bells') most expensive and wonderful projects -
>| >the original Digital Computer Museum at Marlborough (IRS 
>| >denied the project
>| >501(c)3 educational not-for-profit status on the grounds it was a 
company
>| >lobby, rather than the company donating hundreds of thousands of 
>| >dollars in
>| >time, space and equipment in a situation that only created headaches - 
I
>| >suspect after an *inside* complaint though I have absolutely no 
evidence - 
>| 
>| 
>| I didn't know that the museum went away because of the IRS.  But
>| I'll tell you, we viewed it as getting our noses rubbed in it.  
>| All that money being spent on a bloody museums instead of a 
>| decent CPU, peripherals or software.
>
>The IRS was told by *someone* with a grudge that the museum should be 
stripped
>of tax-exempt status because it served the benefit of a particular company 
not
>the public good - this is an extremely rare action. I've been a reporter
>covering outright charity fraud 501(c) cases for years and I only know of 
this
>happening once, after I proved a guy (through his fund raising companies) 
was
>making something like $100,000 for each 20 cents he turned over to the 
charity
>he was allegedly operating - the charity itself, like the museum, retained
>status after it was given to the duped organizers.
>
>To DEC and other right-coast computer fans, the museum was Mecca, a 
revived
>part of the old DEC spirit (see below) why we on the outside loved DEC -
>though I can understand how it must have felt from the inside.

After they started initiating talks, we didn't mind it (after all,
the museum was the one who brought in Grace Hopper).  And there
wasn't a lot of resentment w.r.t. that funding.  The resentment
got immense when we saw parking lots getting resurfaced that
weren't being used or weren't going to be used.  When Jim
worked in Littleton, he observed that a section of sidewalk was
ripped up and repoured five times...and this was when everybody
was getting laid off due to a need to watch expenditures.

>
>| 
>| >we
>| >do know that Gordon Bell went soon after the Defenestration, the 
historic
>| >collection was tossed out of Boston, and both ended up on the Left 
Coast)
>| 
>| His leaving was good news for us.  But, by then, it was too late.
>
>I'm still not sure, as an outsider, whether getting rid of 
>someone with his flare was a good idea - maybe he should 
>have been sent off in a corner with a team of his own, but...

Yup.  Jim always thought that he shouldn't have been a manager
and should have stayed an engineer.  But that was difficult to
do once personnel got into the act of classifying us.
<snip>

>OK, as I said, I'm looking at this from an outsider's pov. 
>My first experience with the "new" DEC came in about 1981, 
>when several DECfolks wanted to give
>LIRICS (the LI high school project) a pair of KL-10s that 
>had been sitting in MR-1 or 2 (the one without the museum) 
>and were about to be decommissioned.

Ah, those must have been the ones in hardware engineering.

>
>DEC Service, Huntington, NY blew the deal because "the 
>machines had not been maintained by DEC Service since 
>their installation" and refused to support.

Yea, we heard about that.  It went beyond our understanding
because we had the opionion that the engineers who designed
the thing probably knew just a tad more than those FS idiots
about the workings of those KLs (they were the ones who fixed
them).  Something happened to Field Service around 1980 w.r.t.
organization.  We (the PDP10 groups) stopped having a say in
their policies towards particular customers.  Somebody else
who was in the field or in that org can probably say more
about it since my info is based on just rumor and customer 
grumbling I took it as just another hint of where the company 
was going.

>
>The machines were scrapped because something that large 
>couldn't be made to fly out the door to a non-nfp like me. 

I do know that the guys spent time thinking about that idea :-).

>(I stood to inherit a KA, something, which at the time, 
>would have caused me great grief in the long run when my
>parents saw the electric bills)

I used System #2 for all of my stand-alone time when I was
developing the USAGE project.  Those were such nice machines.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5097 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Living legends
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 04:18:03 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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On Thu, 13 May 99 13:02:40 GMT,  jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

| In article <373ad25c.1029604101@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
|    david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
| >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
| >
| >
| >| In article <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
| >|    david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
| >|
| >
| >| >OK, Ken *should* have realized that the market was changing 
| >| >when people were making off with officially obsolete low-number 
| >| >PDPs as "home computers" but it was the *new* (then would-be) 
| >| >management that seemed to be behind things like
| >| >making the company a one-computer-line-fits-all outfit, ...
| >| 
| >| That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.
| >
| >OK, another misquote properly attributed (and thanks, 
| >I hate urban legends) - why he went to Microsoft and why 
| >he was working on smaller/faster back in his CMU days.
| 
| Well, there's more to the story than just the quote.  Bell
| gave a speech that had that phrase in it.  The third and
| fourth level of managers heard the speech but only listened
| to the phrase and started implementing it.  The first we
| (those in Marlboro which was the mainframe building) heard
| of it was the decisions getting made based on that phrase.
| Our manager got hold of the tape and we listened (or, at
| least, I listened) to what Bell actually said.  Putting
| the phrase back into the orginal context implied the 
| exact opposite of what all those idiots were organizing,
| namely, one operating system.  

Confused - I was referring to the who-wants-a-home-computer line attributed to
KO, not the One computer line fits all, which is <imho> just so much crap. And
based on Bell's career work, he should have known it.

It's like the chronic debates in my work environment <a newspaper> over "which
computer system we should buy" meaning all-PC or all-MAC, etc., and having to
explain to the know-nothings that the photo and graphics folks will do better
with graphics-optimized machines like MACs, the writers probably want Wintel
machines because we share lots of MS-Office style files (Word, Access, etc.) +
it seems to be a better platform for net use than anything I've seen built to
run on a Mac, and the servers should be whatever animal works best for
connecting it all together and feeding the insane output devices we have (like
straight-to-litho film beasts)

Pathetic.



| >Was going too public was the start of the crisis? (as 
| >in New York Times Inc. is public but it'll be another 
| >generation before the Ochs/Sulzburger families
| >lose 51%+ stock ownership)
| 
| I really don't know.  I still don't understand why limiting
| R&D of a company is a big deal with major stockholders--
| especially when they don't seem to blink an eyelid when
| money is used to gild the lily.  
| 
| I don't even know if the stockholders had anything to do with
| it; it could have just been the bean counters' rule learned
| from idealisms found in text books.

R&D does not produce guaranteed results, and even when successful, does not
figure in as "income"

Same in my business, the bean counters always look to cut reporters and
editors because all they do is take up the space in the paper that doesn't
generate advertising income. The fact that there would be no advertising
without the stuff that wraps around it is hard to get through their skulls,
along with the idea that the consumers won't read the ads unless they are
packaged between news they need/want.


| >I'm still not sure, as an outsider, whether getting rid of 
| >someone with his flare was a good idea - maybe he should 
| >have been sent off in a corner with a team of his own, but...
| 
| Yup.  Jim always thought that he shouldn't have been a manager
| and should have stayed an engineer.  But that was difficult to
| do once personnel got into the act of classifying us.

agreed.

| 
| Ah, those must have been the ones in hardware engineering.
| 
| >
| >DEC Service, Huntington, NY blew the deal because "the 
| >machines had not been maintained by DEC Service since 
| >their installation" and refused to support.
| 
| Yea, we heard about that.  It went beyond our understanding
| because we had the opionion that the engineers who designed
| the thing probably knew just a tad more than those FS idiots
| about the workings of those KLs (they were the ones who fixed
| them).  Something happened to Field Service around 1980 w.r.t.
| organization.  We (the PDP10 groups) stopped having a say in
| their policies towards particular customers.  Somebody else
| who was in the field or in that org can probably say more
| about it since my info is based on just rumor and customer 
| grumbling I took it as just another hint of where the company 
| was going.

I am very glad to hear that at least someone cared at your end - we would have
given those beasts a good home and the best care possible.

			dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 5098 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Fri, 14 May 99 09:36:35 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <373B162D.FBFDEC35@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>,
   Robert Billing <unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> >The "old" DEC gave away manuals and created the engine to
>> >give away software,
>> 
>> I don't remember DEC giving away anything.
>
> I've still got the manuals.
>
When I was on the customer side of the biz, there were a limited
amount of manuals that went with the purchase of the mainframe.
After that, the manuals had to be purchased.  In my group, the
number of manuals were so few that only the top level of
programmers got access to them.  Of course, that could have been
a reason [not having enough manuals] given to me to keep me from
learning too much (I hadn't learned to question authority yet).
What they didn't know is that, in order to satisfy my thirst
for knowledge, I had already honed the skill of learning from
snippets of conversation and watching quietly :-).

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5105 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: 14 May 1999 14:09:47 -0700
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>> >The "old" DEC gave away manuals and created the engine to
>> >give away software,
>> 
>> I don't remember DEC giving away anything.

I got a relatively complete set of manuals (everything I wanted, more or
less) at Wharton-10 for being somewhere between an operator and "jr systems
programmer."  Maybe they weren't "free", but they couldn't have been "scarce
as hen's teeth and priced like platinum" the way some of the equivilent
manuals were (and are) on other systems.

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)


Article 5099 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 PPN and ownership
Date: Fri, 14 May 99 09:38:44 GMT
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In article <7hfiju$dd$1@hirame.wwa.com>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <7hbov1$b7t$1@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>Sigh!  Well, that was typical of Tony.  Did you try to pass it
>>by Jim?  That may well have been the time when we only had 
>>3 manpower slots and enough work for 20.  They didn't do a lot
>>of things they wanted to do then.
>
>In addition to private conversations with TW, I publicly 
>offered the code to DEC at two seperate DECUS "Jim and 
>Tony Shows". The last time I asked if DEC 
>would be offering group quotas in TOPS-10. TW's answer, 
>"No John, we won't take your code."
>
Well, that was Tony.  He never was very perceptive w.r.t.
the future (remember his comment before moving into 5-3?).
It was Jim's role to look ahead.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5117 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Living legends
Date: Sun, 16 May 99 09:28:27 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <373da3d7.1083239122@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
   david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>On Thu, 13 May 99 13:02:40 GMT,  jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>| In article <373ad25c.1029604101@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>|    david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>| >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>| >
>| >
>| >| In article <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
>| >|    david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>| >|
>| >
>| >| >OK, Ken *should* have realized that the market was changing 
>| >| >when people were making off with officially obsolete low-number 
>| >| >PDPs as "home computers" but it was the *new* (then would-be) 
>| >| >management that seemed to be behind things like
>| >| >making the company a one-computer-line-fits-all outfit, ...
>| >| 
>| >| That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.
>| >
>| >OK, another misquote properly attributed (and thanks, 
>| >I hate urban legends) - why he went to Microsoft and why 
>| >he was working on smaller/faster back in his CMU days.
>| 
>| Well, there's more to the story than just the quote.  Bell
>| gave a speech that had that phrase in it.  The third and
>| fourth level of managers heard the speech but only listened
>| to the phrase and started implementing it.  The first we
>| (those in Marlboro which was the mainframe building) heard
>| of it was the decisions getting made based on that phrase.
>| Our manager got hold of the tape and we listened (or, at
>| least, I listened) to what Bell actually said.  Putting
>| the phrase back into the orginal context implied the 
>| exact opposite of what all those idiots were organizing,
>| namely, one operating system.  
>
>Confused - I was referring to the who-wants-a-home-computer 
>line attributed to KO, not the One computer line fits all, 
>which is <imho> just so much crap. And
>based on Bell's career work, he should have known it.

Yup.  There was that [who wants a home computer] muddled 
thinking going around, too.  It came from people who
didn't use computers for their everyday work.  I think
that a lot of the idiocy had to do with hardware types
not recognizing how computers were used.  I had a
conversation with a hardware type on evening about
SMP.  His opinion was that computers got shut off when
he went home at 17:00 and got turned on again when he
started work at 8:00 (even though those main frames ran
24x7).  I was explaining how the SMP implementation would
allow computer service to continue rather than be terminated.
He did not think that was necessary.  I then asked him if
he would tolerate an interuption of power whenever the
electric company wanted to take a turbine off line or 
put one on line.  I tried to get him to see that our
customers required the same quality of service.  Those
hardware types didn't have a clue about computer usage.
 
<snip>

>| >DEC Service, Huntington, NY blew the deal because "the 
>| >machines had not been maintained by DEC Service since 
>| >their installation" and refused to support.
>| 
>| Yea, we heard about that.  It went beyond our understanding
>| because we had the opionion that the engineers who designed
>| the thing probably knew just a tad more than those FS idiots
>| about the workings of those KLs (they were the ones who fixed
>| them).  Something happened to Field Service around 1980 w.r.t.
>| organization.  We (the PDP10 groups) stopped having a say in
>| their policies towards particular customers.  Somebody else
>| who was in the field or in that org can probably say more
>| about it since my info is based on just rumor and customer 
>| grumbling I took it as just another hint of where the company 
>| was going.
>
>I am very glad to hear that at least someone cared 
>at your end - we would have
>given those beasts a good home and the best care possible.

Even our in-house field service was on your side.  But for
some reason that I never knew were very unwilling to 
delve into out-house field service politics.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5108 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Aron K. Insinga" <AInsingaExciseThis@InfoMation.ExciseThis.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:42:39 -0400
Organization: Planet Direct
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(I was a software engineer in the LCG diagnostics,
VLSI CAD, and AI groups during these times.  I don't
know from financials.  LCG diagnostics loaned me to
the 11/750 for a few months when Dolphin died.
I was also one of the first few members of The
Computer Museum and a volunteer docent when it was
in Marlborough, and my wife worked in The Computer
Museum store part time.  There're my disclaimers.)

I think DEC was mostly a victim of its own success.
I agree with BAH's comments blaming MBAs and IBM
mimicry.

I don't think that Gordon Bell deserves so much of the
blame; he left relatively early in DEC's death spiral.
I realize that reducing the number of architectures was
an act on a par with mass murder in these circles.

Remember that he started GEEP to get engineers going
for graduate degrees to get an advanced engineering
degree and explicitly to discourage them getting an MBA.
He said that it was the MBAs who turned RCA from an inventor
of TV technology into an importer of Japanese TVs and
then it was left put it out in the cold when the Japanese
manufacturers started marketing TVs under their own names
in the US.  After he had a heart attack, I think he realized
that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life beating
his head against a brick wall trying to get things
done at DEC, so he left to help start Encore.

> > one-computer-line-fits-all
> That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.

How many operating systems and FORTRAN compilers can
one company really afford to maintain?

DEC had 10 architectures, with word lengths of 1 [PDP-14],
8 [Intel 8008 based MPS], 12 [2: PDP-8 & LINC families],
16 [2: PDP-11 & PDP-16 families], 18, 32, and 36
[2: '10 & '20].  All (or almost all) of these were in use
at the same time.  Chaos!

With the 36-bit machines extending the range down and the
16/32-bit machines extending the range up, they started
overlapping a lot.  KS10 or 11/780?  Minnow or 11/730?
If you just want to count widgets in the warehouse,
odds are that it doesn't matter if it is a 36-bit or
32-bit word.

One academic paper on the PDP-11 design mentioned that
the word length for the machine had been chosen for DEC
by IBM to be a multiple of 8 bits -- IBM had convinced
the customers that memory was sold in multiples of 8 bits.
IBM switched from 36 to 32 and got many of the customers
out there to go along with switching to the 360 architecture.
Not all, but most.  There were even 360 architecture
mutation [to fit the specialized job] avionics computers.
And the semiconductor industry was going along with
8-bit-ism.  With today's technology, there wouldn't be a
problem, the whole CPU is on one chip, so it can have
as many bits in a word as you want.  But with
semiconductors in the '70s-'80s making 4-bit and 8-bit
RALUs and RAMs and ROMs and EPROMs, it wasn't easy to build
36-bit systems.  (I spent a lot of time with the KS10
print set; I know about the 40-bit ALU made from 10 4-bit
slices [with 2 spare bits hanging off of each side] so
that each half-word could be clocked separately.)
I have a cousin who works on antique steam cars.  They're
neat, but they just aren't the way the world went, and
not many people want the hassles of driving one to work
today.

The product lines caused proliferation that could be
dealt with as a small company where the customers knew
what they wanted, but (given KO's belief that people
would go manage themselves and do the right thing) (IMHO)
caused chaos in a large company with a very rapidly
growing manufacturing force and sales force and
maintainence force and customer base (and the growth
rate made training all of them difficult, with training
the customer's decision makers being the biggest problem).
DEC got way past the point where MOST of the customers
knew what they wanted to order.  Cost of sales reportedly
increased to the point where they couldn't afford
[maybe that's where the MBAs come into the picture, in part]
to cut a small (<Fortune 500) deal.  They didn't get into
developing microprocessors soon enough and so they lost their
mainstay OEM business when those customers wanted to buy
their computer in a DIP instead of in a rack-mountable
box.  And that's something that one would have hoped
for DEC to have forseen; the whole company grew out
of modules as components, and shrinking system packaging.
Putting SSI DIPs on *small* single-height M-series Flip Chip
boards to emulate what they had done in R, S, etc. series
(e.g. you get a little board with a few NAND gates on it)
is wasting a level of packaging.  That's one of the
reasons the PDP-11 (CPU is a box of large boards;
most of the connections are runs on the boards)
wiped out the PDP-15 (CPU is a cabinet of small boards;
most of the connections are wires on the backplane).]
I think that Gordon Bell wanted to license the PDP-11
architecture to chip companies.  I don't know who opposed
it.  At one point he griped about "our vanity, protected
architectures."

Maybe the company should have broken itself up into
a handful of small companies in the late '70s,
but the ideal then was to be a large, vertically
integrated company like IBM, not a kairetsu/zaibatsu/?.

As someone once said, "Be careful who you choose as
your enemies, for you will become like them."
I (also) think that it was what happened to DEC, once
DEC started competing head-to-head on IBM's turf,
instead of DEC just offering great products
(modules; embeddable systems; time sharing)
that people wanted in a market DEC invented and
largely had to themselves.  IBM (like a gambler in
a casino) could afford to stay in the game until
the tables turned around enough (perhaps by
going through enough management changes until
they found a new CEO that did a good job.)
DEC couldn't.  They only had one chance at new
management, and the company didn't survive long
enough for them to get a CEO that could save
the company (as opposed to just saving 'shareholder
equity') since the new CEO sold us down the river.

As for DEC giving away manuals, I think that one attempt
to do TV ads was scuttled when KO said that it would be
cheaper to send the manual to every potential customer
in the country.  I think another was scuttled when he
was going to be in an ad in front of a DEC desktop,
and the Rainbow, DECmate, and Pro groups fought over
which one it would be (as if you could really tell :-).

As for The Computer Museum, I don't think the IRS did anything
to it.  It was DEC's private collection (started by KO & GB).
When Texas Instruments gave the Advanced Scientific Computer
to the museum, they wanted to also give some money to build the
display around it and conserve it.  Someone in TI's financial
department realized they were cutting a check to a competitor (DEC),
and TI decided they didn't want to do that.  So The Digital
Computer Museum, 501(c)3 was quickly formed, and DEC gave the
museum to it, and TI then gave the ASC and money to it too.
(They did business as The Computer Museum to make DEC's lawyers
happy, but the legal name was The Digital Computer Museum.
It's ambiguous.  I don't know if that was intentional.
In comparison, DEC once had an ad, "Isn't every computer a
Digital computer?" that I heard caused laywers to hit the roof.)

When DEC was going down the tubes and KO left and Bob Palmer's
anti-KO pogrom started, I think that support for the museum went
the way of Christmas Turkeys and the Mill and Digital Press.
Remember that around that time the economy of the whole area was
in the dumps.  A lot of other companies had supported the museum
also, but many of them were no longer able to (if they still existed
at all).  So for whatever reason, after Encore and Stellar/Ardent/Stardent,
Gordon went to work for Microsoft, and Gordon and Gwen took the museum
along.  (Now things are a lot better along Rt. 128, I think, but it's
too late -- the stuff is out there and they're creating a new museum
to take it over and the old computer museum in Boston is going to
connect somehow to the science museum in Boston.)  I do think it is a
real shame to have the collection out in the land of earthquakes
and mud slides and raging fires, where history in general
doesn't seem to count for much (since they don't have very
much history [as if anyplace in the US does, someone from
"The Old World" will say, no doubt] and everyone is so focussed
on the future), but there isn't much I can do about it,
and I guess my feelings are largely because I won't get to see it
much if at all where it is now.

- Aron Insinga


Article 5109 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Living legends
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:14:59 GMT
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"Aron K. Insinga" <AInsingaExciseThis@InfoMation.ExciseThis.com> wrote in
part:

| I don't think that Gordon Bell deserves so much of the
| blame; he left relatively early in DEC's death spiral.
| I realize that reducing the number of architectures was
| an act on a par with mass murder in these circles.

| How many operating systems and FORTRAN compilers can
| one company really afford to maintain?
| 
| DEC had 10 architectures, with word lengths of 1 [PDP-14],
| 8 [Intel 8008 based MPS], 12 [2: PDP-8 & LINC families],
| 16 [2: PDP-11 & PDP-16 families], 18, 32, and 36
| [2: '10 & '20].  All (or almost all) of these were in use
| at the same time.  Chaos!

The -14 was dead at that point, replaced by the -16 which doesn't really count
since it was basically a one-off custom product like its predecessor, the MPS
software was off-shelf for the most part, LINC was extinct. PDP-11 and VAX
were fairly identical softwarewise, as were the two 36-bitters.

The 12-bit line was mature and all the code written, and was dying on its own
because of the cheap WIntel products coming on line. The 18-bit was
dead-ending because of the decision to build the PDP-11/VAX line and go
IBM-style.

Bell looked at it this way - architecture and code are not the same thing.

The PDP-7 and PDP-15 were what modern designers would call RISC machines, no
microcode, just separate circuits for each instruction. The PDP-9 used B-212
flipchip cards for almost everything and a box of core ROM microcode. All ran
the same code (with some new instructions introduced in the -15)

Taken to the extreme, this was Bell's theory, you can build a little VAX and a
big VAX that run the same code but have completely different architectures.

BUT

The problem is that code should be optimized to the machine and the
combination optimized to the task - otherwise we're in the "modern" world of
code bloat and the need for gigs of disk space and megs of ram to do the same
job that megs of disk space and k's of core did.

My 1965 PDP-8 with 4K of core plays a mean game of chess, using the MIT crew's
bummed code utilizing all the resources of the machine to the fullest.

If its hardware were rebuilt out of modern high-speed parts using the same
architecture, it could probably run rings around WIntel-environment commercial
chess programs.
| 
| With the 36-bit machines extending the range down and the
| 16/32-bit machines extending the range up, they started
| overlapping a lot.  KS10 or 11/780?  Minnow or 11/730?
| If you just want to count widgets in the warehouse,
| odds are that it doesn't matter if it is a 36-bit or
| 32-bit word.

But the PDP-10 architecture provided incredible I/O bandwidth, the reason it
was the machine of choice for the proto-nets. And the instruction set provided
lots of ways of handling specialized big-bandwidth problems while keeping the
processor relatively load-free.

The PDP-8 was initially the Model T PC, then VolksComputer - everyone who
needed one could have just enough power to get the job done.

The 18-bit line filled in the middle, capable of running everything that
needed a midi.


These designs, at least the smaller word-length machines, were coming to the
end of their life cycles as hardware got cheaper. 
BUT DEC never developed replacements that would have meant a series of
optimized systems

 - My "now-serioudly-outdated" Pentium II -266 will need replacement mainly
because it will not run new commercial apps which do things I don't need or
want them to do, but won't do because the apps are all-or-nothing
general-purpose creations, and alternatives are not available to the current
version of me, who needs a turnkey system and simply does not have the time to
max-tweak a LINUX box.
 
| One academic paper on the PDP-11 design mentioned that
| the word length for the machine had been chosen for DEC
| by IBM to be a multiple of 8 bits -- IBM had convinced
| the customers that memory was sold in multiples of 8 bits.
| IBM switched from 36 to 32 and got many of the customers
| out there to go along with switching to the 360 architecture.
| Not all, but most.  There were even 360 architecture
| mutation [to fit the specialized job] avionics computers.

Variations of the stretch, more AEC than avionics

| And the semiconductor industry was going along with
| 8-bit-ism.  With today's technology, there wouldn't be a
| problem, the whole CPU is on one chip, so it can have
| as many bits in a word as you want.  But with
| semiconductors in the '70s-'80s making 4-bit and 8-bit
| RALUs and RAMs and ROMs and EPROMs, it wasn't easy to build
| 36-bit systems.  (I spent a lot of time with the KS10
| print set; I know about the 40-bit ALU made from 10 4-bit
| slices [with 2 spare bits hanging off of each side] so
| that each half-word could be clocked separately.)
| I have a cousin who works on antique steam cars.  They're
| neat, but they just aren't the way the world went, and
| not many people want the hassles of driving one to work
| today.

Steam cars are inefficient - the optimized DEC systems were efficient for
getting to work, or hauling freight, racing,  or hauling a vacation's worth of
family and family stuff, etc. Same "basic" task, same "basic" system, but I
wouldn't want to run Indy in technology designed for a semi, or haul freight
with a suspension and stearing mechanism designed for racing.

 

| As for The Computer Museum, I don't think the IRS did anything
| to it.

Private conversation with Gwen Bell and museum staff concerning the move to
Museum Wharf. Content: The IRS said if you keep the museum at Marlborough, you
lose 501(c)3 n-f-p status.

|  It was DEC's private collection (started by KO & GB).

More than that - I got to *play* with one of GB's privately owned Enigmas,
which, according to several trusted historian/journalists (including James
Bamford and CBS News) were, at the time, still technically classified top
secret.

| When Texas Instruments gave the Advanced Scientific Computer
| to the museum, they wanted to also give some money to build the
| display around it and conserve it.  Someone in TI's financial
| department realized they were cutting a check to a competitor (DEC),
| and TI decided they didn't want to do that.  So The Digital
| Computer Museum, 501(c)3 was quickly formed, and DEC gave the
| museum to it, and TI then gave the ASC and money to it too.
| (They did business as The Computer Museum to make DEC's lawyers
| happy, but the legal name was The Digital Computer Museum.
| It's ambiguous.  I don't know if that was intentional.
| In comparison, DEC once had an ad, "Isn't every computer a
| Digital computer?" that I heard caused laywers to hit the roof.)
| 
| When DEC was going down the tubes and KO left and Bob Palmer's
| anti-KO pogrom started, I think that support for the museum went
| the way of Christmas Turkeys and the Mill and Digital Press.

Digital Press still exists


| - Aron Insinga


				dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 5106 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: Linux popularity
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Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:19:18 GMT
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>>said, "If you don't have 36 bits then you aren't playing with a full DEC".

I also have a number of those original shirts...

and the saying was (if *I* can remember it correctly):

	"If your machine doesn't have 36 bits,
	 you're not playing with a full DEC."

There was also a VAXbusters t-shirt...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



Article 5123 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news
From: "Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Linux popularity
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:34:56 -0400
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <7hms17$cos@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>
References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7hh1f0$qqn$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <FBr2C7.28x@world.std.com> <7hmm09$das$1@nntp3.uunet.ca> <7hmmt8$t52$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>
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Derek Peschel wrote in message
<7hmmt8$t52$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>...
>In article <7hmm09$das$1@nntp3.uunet.ca>,
>Don Chiasson <chiasson@trytel.com> wrote:
>
>>I still have mine, in DEC-20 orange, the back of which has the
words,
>>
>>  %DECSYSTEM-20 CONTINUED
>>
>>This was the message users received when the front-end
>>(communications) processor crashed.
>
>I think you mean when it _recovered_ from a crash.  When it
_crashed_,
>surely you didn't see anything.  (I just checked the manual, which
also
>mentions the messages for fatal errors.)
>
>-- Derek

When the KA-10 went down that I used, it would print three bells and
then

%%DECSYSTEM-10 IS DOWN - WAIT PLEASE

Or something similar.  It was actually printed by the PDP-8/I (I
think) front end.  Sort of majestic in a room with 7 Model 35's and
2 model 33 ttys.




Article 5120 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news
From: "Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:07:17 -0400
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
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Message-ID: <7hmjcb$ea4@nnrp2.farm.idt.net>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com> <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net> <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com> <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net> <373c310e.240459472@news.supernews.com> <373f81a6.1205576664@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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David M. Razler wrote in message
<373f81a6.1205576664@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>cpc@mediaone.net (Chris Cebelenski) wrote:
>
>| What would
>| the world be like if the PC's had RT-11 to start with instead of
>| DOS?  (Maybe not much better, given DEC's history...)
>
>Well, DOS is the child of CPM, which was the child of OS/8 in
structure and
>command system.
>
>The PDP-11 OSs, like UNIX were both offspring of the DEC 18-bit
lines (RSX-15,
>Bell Labs B &C, etc)
>


Actually, (having no experince with OS/8) I always thought that CP/M
resembles RT-11 version 2, and MS-DOS (a good part of which was
copied code from CP/M) resembled RT-11 version 3, with some TOPS-10
terminology mixed in.  For instance EXE files - in name only, not
concept - was what the executables were named in later TOPS-10 and
MS-DOS and SAV files (terminology) were used in early TOPS-10, RT-11
and CP/M flavors.




Article 5111 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Date: 15 May 1999 15:01:20 GMT
Organization: Everett Associates
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <7hk280$ju5$1@hirame.wwa.com>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com> <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net> <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com> <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net>
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In article <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>It was an age-old tradition in TOPS10 (remember that
>we shipped the sources to our customers) that the original
>author of the source could put his/her full name in the
>TITLE statement.  After that, in the SUBTTL statement, anybody
>who modified the source put their initials to document an edit
>trace.  So, it was not unusual for customers to see a long
>string of /XXX/YYY/ZZZ.  Some people yearned to have their
>initials in that line and others played the game of trying
>to guess who's who.  Just about everything that I've done
>at DEC since I started working there was indicated with 
>my initials.  It's a long time habit.

Not quite everyone yearned to have their initials in that SUBTTL line. Very 
few of the sources I mucked about in got a "/JE" appended. I figured it was 
just another way customers could find out who to pester about their favorite 
bugs/dreams.

When I had left DEC and came back as an ADP employee to port TOPS-10 to the 
KS10, I put my initials in every module I touched. I figured as an ADP 
employee I was safe from the entreaties of DEC customers, so I'd make up for 
all those years of hiding my identity. Unfortunately, when the KS10 line of 
development was SOUPed back into the mainstream development sources (perhaps 
by you, Barb?) the person who resolved the conflicts didn't chose to preserve 
my initials. Sigh! ;-)

-- 
jeverett(at)wwa(dot)com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5125 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Date: 17 May 1999 01:59:37 GMT
Organization: Everett Associates
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <7hnt69$6r1$1@hirame.wwa.com>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com> <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net> <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com> <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hk280$ju5$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7hm8mn$6qq$1@antiochus.ultra.net>
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In article <7hm8mn$6qq$1@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>That's horrible!  Nope.  I didn't do the SOUP--I never 
>did a SOUP.  We could find out by looking at the MCO file
>for the author of the MCO that said "support KS10s".  I've
>got some guesses, though.

Yes, if only the MCO files still existed. They're gone, aren't they? Sure 
would like to confirm if my memory of MCO #1595 is accurate.

-- 
jeverett(at)wwa(dot)com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5128 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Date: Mon, 17 May 99 10:46:02 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <7hp2bv$a4m$1@antiochus.ultra.net>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com> <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net> <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com> <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hk280$ju5$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7hm8mn$6qq$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hnt69$6r1$1@hirame.wwa.com>
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In article <7hnt69$6r1$1@hirame.wwa.com>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <7hm8mn$6qq$1@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>That's horrible!  Nope.  I didn't do the SOUP--I never 
>>did a SOUP.  We could find out by looking at the MCO file
>>for the author of the MCO that said "support KS10s".  I've
>>got some guesses, though.
>
>Yes, if only the MCO files still existed. They're gone, aren't they? Sure 
>would like to confirm if my memory of MCO #1595 is accurate.
>
There were two "sets" of MCOs on disk.  The internal set were
all the MCOs that were written.  The external set were the
MCOs that were shipped on the Monitor tape for the perusal
of the customers.  I would suspect that the "support KS10"
would be one of those that we marked for customer reading.
You would have to find the tape that contains the major 
monitor release after that MCO (I don't remember which one
it would be--either 6.03A or 7.01).  I hadn't really started 
putting my nose into packaging until later.

And, yes, I suspect that those MCO files are gone.  I saw
no evidence of BLKC or BLKB when I said goodbye to the DEC's
last KL.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5129 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Date: Mon, 17 May 99 10:58:56 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <7hp344$a4m$4@antiochus.ultra.net>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at>
	 <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com>
	 <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net>
	 <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net>
	 <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com>
	 <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hp20h$7vn$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
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In article <7hp20h$7vn$1@ligarius.ultra.net>,
   "Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com> wrote:
>----------
>In article <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>> Nope.  It was an age-old tradition in TOPS10 (remember that
>> we shipped the sources to our customers) that the original
>> author of the source could put his/her full name in the
>> TITLE statement.  After that, in the SUBTTL statement, anybody
>> who modified the source put their initials to document an edit
>> trace.  So, it was not unusual for customers to see a long
>> string of /XXX/YYY/ZZZ.  Some people yearned to have their
>> initials in that line and others played the game of trying
>> to guess who's who.  Just about everything that I've done
>> at DEC since I started working there was indicated with
>> my initials.  It's a long time habit.
>>
>> /BAH
>
>Thanks Barbara, I've been doing this for 30 years now and I almost forgot
>why!  It really is completely automatic.  :)
>
>/lss

'ey, Larry :-).  Yup, it is automatic.  I always initialed my
work when I worked in Tape Prep (that was before your time :-))
and just never stopped.  Initials were probably reinforced
because we called each other by those "names" occasionally.  I
always said "tee-double-ya" when talking to Tony.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5114 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!mbg
From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Message-ID: <FBsoAx.Hz3@world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:11:21 GMT
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com> <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net> <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <373b217a.170935392@news.superne
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 49
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>I liked working with RT-11.  It's philosophy was more like TOPS10
>in that it just got the job done with a minimum of fuss and left
>the bells and whistles to the apps.  

We (the RT-11 development group) had some T-shirts made up years
ago which alluded to this philosphy...

	"Who says you can't love something small
	 that finishes fast?"

And yes, having used TOPS-10 first, using RT-11 was familiar...

>Nope.  It was an age-old tradition in TOPS10 (remember that
>we shipped the sources to our customers) that the original
>author of the source could put his/her full name in the
>TITLE statement.  After that, in the SUBTTL statement, anybody
>who modified the source put their initials to document an edit
>trace.  So, it was not unusual for customers to see a long
>string of /XXX/YYY/ZZZ.  Some people yearned to have their
>initials in that line and others played the game of trying
>to guess who's who.  Just about everything that I've done
>at DEC since I started working there was indicated with 
>my initials.  It's a long time habit.

Some of the RT sources had that same sort of convention, though
in comments, not on the .TITLE or .SBTTL lines...

One of our team took it upon himself to document, in the subsystem
he worked on -- SL (single-line editor) -- the initials of all the
team members for any given release, starting, I think, with V4.0.

I maintain a list of all the people that I know about who ever
worked on RT-11 (managers and writers included), along with the
initials that developers used when touching the sources...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



Article 5135 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nntp.abs.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!d11
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...
Date: Tue, 18 May 99 08:48:24 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <7hrfrm$ev9$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <ALDERSON.99May17174748@netcom2.netcom.com> <7hr9ec$prs$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5135

In article <7hr9ec$prs$1@shell3.ba.best.com>,
   inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
>In article <ALDERSON.99May17174748@netcom2.netcom.com>,
>Richard M. Alderson III <alderson@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com>
>>Daniel Seagraves <root@bony.umtec.com> writes:
>>
>>>A few stupid TOPS-10 questions...

These aren't very stupid questions.  Documenting them was
one of the difficult things we had to do every monitor release.

>>
>>>First, how was TOPS-10 installed on a clean KL?

<snip questions & answers>

The documentation that described the steps was called the
Monitor Installation Guide.  To check out the accuracy of
the documentation, a person (whom we called the Token Dummy)
took a set of installation tapes, the documentation, and
usually the writer of the documentation, and followed the
instructions.  I was the first Token Dummy.  We made a big
deal of the Official Token Dummy; one of the benefits of
being one was to get invited to the "Thank the Gods They
Finally Let Us Ship the Damn Thing" party.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5144 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Paul Wexelblat <wex@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: 19 May 1999 20:47:37 PDT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <374385ED.4D56079B@concentric.net>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at>
		 <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com>
		 <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net>
		 <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net>
		 <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com>
		 <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hp20h$7vn$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:130543 alt.sys.pdp10:5144

Sure, but Bob Clements (RCC) got his own stopcode
RCC - which Bob implimented - was Range Check Chunk (SCNSER)
(He was upset when my rewrite solved the problem, but some yahoo from
support
re-instituted it)

--
WEX

"Larry S. Samberg" wrote:

> ----------
> In article <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Nope.  It was an age-old tradition in TOPS10 (remember that
> > we shipped the sources to our customers) that the original
> > author of the source could put his/her full name in the
> > TITLE statement.  After that, in the SUBTTL statement, anybody
> > who modified the source put their initials to document an edit
> > trace.  So, it was not unusual for customers to see a long
> > string of /XXX/YYY/ZZZ.  Some people yearned to have their
> > initials in that line and others played the game of trying
> > to guess who's who.  Just about everything that I've done
> > at DEC since I started working there was indicated with
> > my initials.  It's a long time habit.
> >
> > /BAH
>
> Thanks Barbara, I've been doing this for 30 years now and I almost forgot
> why!  It really is completely automatic.  :)
>
> /lss



Article 5143 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Linux popularity
Date: Wed, 19 May 99 13:22:55 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <7hukaj$sv5$1@antiochus.ultra.net>
References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7gvmua$r9g$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <7h6f0e$bdr$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7hg4qh$4v1@tu228.tus.ssi1.com> <7hh1f0$qqn$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <FBr2C7.28x@world.std.com> <7hmm09$das$1@nntp3.uunet.ca>
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In article <7hmm09$das$1@nntp3.uunet.ca>,
   "Don Chiasson" <chiasson@trytel.com> wrote:
>
>Megan wrote in message ...
>>>>said, "If you don't have 36 bits then you aren't playing with a full
>DEC".
>>
>
>I still have mine, in DEC-20 orange, the back of which has the words,
>
>  %DECSYSTEM-20 CONTINUED
>
>This was the message users received when the front-end
>(communications) processor crashed.

My memory of that t-shirt was that it said "%DECSYSTEM-20
NOT RUNNING".  The -10 monitor group wanted a similar
t-shirt and I fought long and hard to have the words
DECSYSTEM-10 CONTINUED put after the "not running"
phrase.  I wanted to advertise the fact that crashes
and dumps no longer interrupted timesharing.  I finally
won.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5147 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends
Date: Thu, 20 May 99 11:22:47 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <373c310e.240459472@news.supernews.com>,
   cpc@mediaone.net (Chris Cebelenski) wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>In article <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com>,
>>   cpc@mediaone.net (Chris Cebelenski) wrote:
>>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

>I wish companies still shipped source... The last source I got from
>Digital was VMS 4.x, on microfiche.  I bought a reader just to look
>at it.  As some people found out, I was WAY dangerous with source...
>This is why I applaud all of the open source initiaitives that are
>springing up today.  I have nothing against people charging for their
>work, and nothing against copyrights and all that, but just the idea of
>hiding the source like it's something mystical bothers me to no end.  
>Source is PART of the project, the executables are another part.  

<snip>

TOPS10 shipped sources as an integral part; TOPS20 had a source
tape that could be bought for a very high price (there were 
advantages to this but I won't go into them here).  The problem
with splitting the sources and binaries up into two products
was that the sources never built what was shipped on the binary
tapes.  There was always a schism.  Another problem is that
shipping both together made internal source management 
honest.  It just wasn't possible to slip something in the
binaries without having it go through the procedures to
get it into the sources.  That way nothing got lost.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5146 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Re: Living legends
Date: Thu, 20 May 99 11:13:48 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <7i114p$ed3$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
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In article <373e788a.1203243850@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
   david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) wrote:
>"Aron K. Insinga" <AInsingaExciseThis@InfoMation.ExciseThis.com> wrote in
>part:
>
>| I don't think that Gordon Bell deserves so much of the
>| blame; he left relatively early in DEC's death spiral.
>| I realize that reducing the number of architectures was
>| an act on a par with mass murder in these circles.
>
>| How many operating systems and FORTRAN compilers can
>| one company really afford to maintain?
>| 
>| DEC had 10 architectures, with word lengths of 1 [PDP-14],
>| 8 [Intel 8008 based MPS], 12 [2: PDP-8 & LINC families],
>| 16 [2: PDP-11 & PDP-16 families], 18, 32, and 36
>| [2: '10 & '20].  All (or almost all) of these were in use
>| at the same time.  Chaos!
>
>The -14 was dead at that point, replaced by the -16 which 
>doesn't really count since it was basically a one-off 
>custom product like its predecessor, the MPS
>software was off-shelf for the most part, LINC was 
>extinct. PDP-11 and VAX were fairly identical softwarewise, 
>as were the two 36-bitters.

An important note to make is that some of these were 
custom-designed for a particular application--quite
different from a system designed for general use.
<snip>

>
>Bell looked at it this way - architecture and code are not 
>the same thing.

Right.  

>
>The PDP-7 and PDP-15 were what modern designers would call 
>RISC machines, no microcode, just separate circuits for 
>each instruction. The PDP-9 used B-212 flipchip cards 
>for almost everything and a box of core ROM microcode. All ran
>the same code (with some new instructions introduced in the -15)
>
>Taken to the extreme, this was Bell's theory, you can 
>build a little VAX and a big VAX that run the same code 
>but have completely different architectures.

It was a one-size fits all software mentality that was
contrary to our business experience.  Insisting that
customers conform to one was stupid since our customers
didn't want that (that's why they bought DEC equipment
rather than IBM in the old days--they liked to make
their own decisions).  

>
>BUT
>
>The problem is that code should be optimized to the machine and the
>combination optimized to the task - otherwise we're in the "modern" world 
of
>code bloat and the need for gigs of disk space and megs of ram to do the 
same
>job that megs of disk space and k's of core did.
>
>My 1965 PDP-8 with 4K of core plays a mean game of chess, using the MIT 
crew's
>bummed code utilizing all the resources of the machine to the fullest.
>
>If its hardware were rebuilt out of modern high-speed parts using the same
>architecture, it could probably run rings around WIntel-environment 
commercial
>chess programs.
>| 
>| With the 36-bit machines extending the range down and the
>| 16/32-bit machines extending the range up, they started
>| overlapping a lot.  KS10 or 11/780?  Minnow or 11/730?
>| If you just want to count widgets in the warehouse,
>| odds are that it doesn't matter if it is a 36-bit or
>| 32-bit word.
>
>But the PDP-10 architecture provided incredible I/O bandwidth, the reason 
it
>was the machine of choice for the proto-nets. And the instruction set 
provided
>lots of ways of handling specialized big-bandwidth problems while keeping 
the
>processor relatively load-free.
>
>The PDP-8 was initially the Model T PC, then VolksComputer - everyone who
>needed one could have just enough power to get the job done.
>
>The 18-bit line filled in the middle, capable of running everything that
>needed a midi.
>
>
>These designs, at least the smaller word-length machines, were coming to 
the
>end of their life cycles as hardware got cheaper. 
>BUT DEC never developed replacements that would have meant a series of
>optimized systems

The key word here is "systems".  Somehow, that concept got lost.

<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5145 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Thu, 20 May 99 11:01:16 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <7i10da$ed3$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <37344E32.C450E8AC@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7h1kpe$jqt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h3qda$ns8$3@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7h3vli$roa$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7h47e0$g84$2@zingo.tninet.se> <3736167e$0$18684@mojo.crosslink.net> <7h6f12$301$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37370562$0$18685@mojo.crosslink.net> <3738a343.820907259@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <7hbqd0$b7t$4@antiochus.ultra.net> <373CC2FF.BE4C820@InfoMation.ExciseThis.com>
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In article <373CC2FF.BE4C820@InfoMation.ExciseThis.com>,
   "Aron K. Insinga" <AInsingaExciseThis@InfoMation.ExciseThis.com> wrote:
>(I was a software engineer in the LCG diagnostics,
>VLSI CAD, and AI groups during these times.  I don't
>know from financials.  LCG diagnostics loaned me to
>the 11/750 for a few months when Dolphin died.
>I was also one of the first few members of The
>Computer Museum and a volunteer docent when it was
>in Marlborough, and my wife worked in The Computer
>Museum store part time.  There're my disclaimers.)
>
>I think DEC was mostly a victim of its own success.
>I agree with BAH's comments blaming MBAs and IBM
>mimicry.
>
>I don't think that Gordon Bell deserves so much of the
>blame; he left relatively early in DEC's death spiral.
>I realize that reducing the number of architectures was
>an act on a par with mass murder in these circles.
>
>Remember that he started GEEP to get engineers going
>for graduate degrees to get an advanced engineering
>degree and explicitly to discourage them getting an MBA.
>He said that it was the MBAs who turned RCA from an inventor
>of TV technology into an importer of Japanese TVs and
>then it was left put it out in the cold when the Japanese
>manufacturers started marketing TVs under their own names
>in the US.  After he had a heart attack, I think he realized
>that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life beating
>his head against a brick wall trying to get things
>done at DEC, so he left to help start Encore.

IMO, the problem with Bell's influence is that he had
no concept of the importance of software in DEC's business.
It was he who got rid of the upper management who knew
software.

>
>> > one-computer-line-fits-all
>> That was Gordon Bell's mantra, by the way.
>
>How many operating systems and FORTRAN compilers can
>one company really afford to maintain?

And you begin to make the same assumptions here.
>
>DEC had 10 architectures, with word lengths of 1 [PDP-14],
>8 [Intel 8008 based MPS], 12 [2: PDP-8 & LINC families],
>16 [2: PDP-11 & PDP-16 families], 18, 32, and 36
>[2: '10 & '20].  All (or almost all) of these were in use
>at the same time.  Chaos!

And here you're mixing up hardware and software.  Note that
you catagorize the -11s as a hardware group but separate 
the 36-bit hardware into two (which was software).

>
>With the 36-bit machines extending the range down and the
>16/32-bit machines extending the range up, they started
>overlapping a lot.  KS10 or 11/780?  Minnow or 11/730?
>If you just want to count widgets in the warehouse,
>odds are that it doesn't matter if it is a 36-bit or
>32-bit word.

It does if one wants to get some work done.


>One academic paper on the PDP-11 design mentioned that
>the word length for the machine had been chosen for DEC
>by IBM to be a multiple of 8 bits -- IBM had convinced
>the customers that memory was sold in multiples of 8 bits.
>IBM switched from 36 to 32 and got many of the customers
>out there to go along with switching to the 360 architecture.

Huh?  This wasn't mentioned in my experience.

<snip>


>As someone once said, "Be careful who you choose as
>your enemies, for you will become like them."
>I (also) think that it was what happened to DEC, once
>DEC started competing head-to-head on IBM's turf,
>instead of DEC just offering great products
>(modules; embeddable systems; time sharing)
>that people wanted in a market DEC invented and
>largely had to themselves.

IME, DEC was already competing with IBM in 1968.

>  IBM (like a gambler in
>a casino) could afford to stay in the game until
>the tables turned around enough (perhaps by
>going through enough management changes until
>they found a new CEO that did a good job.)
>DEC couldn't.  They only had one chance at new
>management, and the company didn't survive long
>enough for them to get a CEO that could save
>the company (as opposed to just saving 'shareholder
>equity') since the new CEO sold us down the river.

That new CEO began stripping down DEC from the very 
beginning.  

<snip>
/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5148 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Don Chiasson" <chiasson@trytel.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Linux popularity
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:48:58 -0400
Organization: UUNET Canada News Transport
Lines: 36
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <7hukaj$sv5$1@antiochus.ultra.net>...
>In article <7hmm09$das$1@nntp3.uunet.ca>,
>   "Don Chiasson" <chiasson@trytel.com> wrote:
>>
>>Megan wrote in message ...
>>>>>said, "If you don't have 36 bits then you aren't playing with a full
>>DEC".
>>>

I have my orange shirt in front of me, and it says:
    IF YOUR COMPUTER
    DOESN'T HAVE 36 BITS
    YOU'RE NOT PLAYING
    WITH A FULL DEC....
>>
>>I still have mine, in DEC-20 orange, the back of which has the words,
>>
>>  %DECSYSTEM-20 CONTINUED
>>
>>This was the message users received when the front-end
>>(communications) processor crashed.
>
>My memory of that t-shirt was that it said "%DECSYSTEM-20
>NOT RUNNING".
Mine does indeed say CONTINUED, but it is possible more than one t-shirt
was produced. I think mine comes from the time when users were
pressuring DEC to continue making 36 bit systems going. The computer
line was (hopefully) continued, not just one machine. Given the
COMD% JSYS, command line interpreters would be useful to
a lot more people.

        Don





Article 5153 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: COMND JSYS (was: Linux popularity)
Date: 21 May 1999 13:51:30 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
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In article <7i2449$bk1$1@nntp3.uunet.ca>,
Don Chiasson <chiasson@trytel.com> wrote:
: Given the COMD% JSYS, command line interpreters would be useful to
: a lot more people.
: 
At Columbia University, we decided to switch to UNIX when the DEC-20 was
discontinued.  In migrating, we wanted to port a bunch of our favorite
programs to UNIX, notably MM, and so developed a COMND JSYS library for C
(and an MM program too).  You can find them both at the Columbia
ftp site:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/ccmd/  <-- COMND JSYS for C
  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/mm/    <-- MM in C

Also, C-Kermit has a COMND-like user interface:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.html

but it uses its own command package rather than ccmd, which adds a few
things that COMND lacked (variables, file lists on ?, etc) and lacks
a few COMND features (e.g. noise words).

Btw, REV (more or less) lives again as a Kermit script:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckscripts.html

MM and CCMD development stopped long ago (MM has some Year-2000 issues,
which is a shame 'cause I still use it, and might have to fix it myself
if nobody else does), but the Kermit Project is still going.

- Frank


Article 5164 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: 23 May 1999 17:34:53 GMT
Organization: Everett Associates
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                 <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com>
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In article <374385ED.4D56079B@concentric.net>, wex@concentric.net says...
>
>Sure, but Bob Clements (RCC) got his own stopcode
>RCC - which Bob implimented - was Range Check Chunk (SCNSER)
>(He was upset when my rewrite solved the problem, but some yahoo from
>support
>re-instituted it)

As I've posted here before, Bob Clements had absolutely nothing to do with 
the implementation of the RCC stopcd. It was purely a creation of Don Lewine 
as a "tribute" to Bob, who had recently left the monitor group to return to 
hardware engineering. The name Range Check Chunk was decided upon at a 
Monday Monitor Group meeting at which I was a participant. It was put into 
SCNSER because Bob had been responsible for that module during his tenure in 
the group.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5195 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:07:57 -0400
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John Everett wrote in message <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com>...
>In article <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, gscott@scott.com says...

>
>I had a number of friends working at Defies Logic back in the late '70s,
and
>visited the facility on numerous occasions. What a mess!


System A, a stunning number of ME10s, and the ex-FDC TU30s were in one room.
The big room held the rest of A (SA10A, a couple of 10-8 channels), all of
the comm junk, and all of System B. For some reason the floor was pretty
new, and when I got there the big room was so empty in there that the
operators used to have races on roller skates and indoor hockey.

>The SA-10 panel I've located is not in Brisbane after all, but residing in
>Conway, New Hampshire. Bob Christiansen, the owner, will be in the States
this
>summer (ours) and has promised a picture when he gets to his NH place. This
is
>not the Defies Logic unit (which I didn't know existed), but the one from
Time
>Sharing Limited (TSL) in London. Bob wrote the front panel driver code for
>TOPS-10 and was awarded the front panel when the SA-10s were retired.


Wow, it must be a whole different beast than the one on the SA10A.  It would
have been really cool to have lights somewhere... but since the things
pretty much never broke, you didn't really need them.  Besides,
since the SA10A was so wierd and almost a prototype, I don't think its front
panel was much more than a prototype debugging tool.

That was a cool system, with the FDC TU30s showing flame marks on them, and
two big lines of ME10s facing each other.  Late at night, if I was bored or
waiting for a build or something, you could play "repeat examine next".
Since it was a dual-KA (DECsystem-1055) with 256K (a full 18 bits of
memory), you could go to the OPSER terminal, :SET RUN NO CPU1, walk over to
the slave, press HALT, examine some random location, then select REPEAT and
EXAMINE NEXT.  When the address would get to 777777 it would wrap to zero
and you would just go around and around. The ME10s would flash away,
depending on how they were interleaved. It was fun to watch.  When you are
done, just start the slave at 407 (or was it 403?), then walk over to OPSER
and :SET RUN CPU1

Hey MRO guys! Remember when the tri-SMP 10 in Marlboro (1026/1042/1322) was
running backups, the light show was just awesome? KL1026 was the TOPS-10
development system and it had about one oddball device of everything on it,
whole bunches of all kinds of disks, including a big box of Ampex memory and
two strings of TU70/72/73s.

OBTW, as far as I know 1042 was the last real 10 that ran as KL1026, in NIO.
Even though it was a KL10D (with the big tall cabs), it had 4 meg of
internal KL10E memory and a NIA20 wedged into it. Nice, tidy little package.
At the end, it had something like 4 RP06s on it. It also booted up as gidney
for the random -20 stuff.  Fitting that system would be the last one in
"Engineering". (I know, cause I shut the lights off over there.)

>Bob will probably be surprised to find that another front panel existed.
I'll
>have to try to get in touch with Ben Vaughn to see what he knows about its
>history.


Oh yes Ben worked on that thing, he will remember it. Ben spent many long
nights at Defies Logic keeping that senior hardware running.

One day I came in and System B was down. Ben had diagnosed the problem as a
bad chip on the SA10. Components just plugged in to a wirewrap kinda
backplane, so it ought to be a 10 second job to plug in another chip. The
chip was something like a 16 input NAND gate. Ben looked all around trying
to find this part, which should be common enough. Unfortunately SC had the
world's supply of whatever this rare chip was.  At this time Defies Logic
wasn't paying any SC bills (not paying bills was a way of life there), and
SC wouldn't give us the chip till we had paid for a couple SA10s, the latest
Fred Wright code, and some other stuff.  Meanwhile the main revenue
producing system was DOWN. Finally, Ron wired SC the cash, SC set us a 32
cent chip, and we were back on the air.

That place was nuts, but it was also a lot of fun.

Greg Scott
greg@scott.com




Article 5201 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d14
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Date: Sat, 29 May 99 08:30:32 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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In article <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
   "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com> wrote:
>John Everett wrote in message <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com>...
>>In article <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, gscott@scott.com says...
>
<snip>

>Hey MRO guys! Remember when the tri-SMP 10 in Marlboro 
>(1026/1042/1322) was
>running backups, the light show was just awesome? 

What light show?


>KL1026 was the TOPS-10 development system and it had about 
>one oddball device of everything on it,
>whole bunches of all kinds of disks, including a big box of 
>Ampex memory and two strings of TU70/72/73s.

We had to have all those oddball devices because we supported
them.  If we supported a piece of hardware, it was a requirement
that we be able to test the software and use them for debugging.
As a matter of fact, we had to keep a 7-track tape drive on
the end of one of those TU70 strings because there was still
a customer who ordered 7-track tapes.  (It would have been
cheaper just to give them a 9-track but managers didn't seem
to know how to count back then.)  And I don't remember having
AMPEX memory.  That was also because of support reasons.  JMF
would have loved to have had AMPEX memory but Digital, in its
infinite wisdom (read that idiocy) insisted that we develop
based on its old technology.  Our 5-CPU customer site did
use AMPEX so that hardware checkout was covered when we did
the software development.  If it weren't for our customers'
cooperation, Digital would have been out of business in 1981.


<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5192 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!ulcc.ac.uk!not-for-mail
From: Kevin Ashley <K.Ashley@ulcc.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:17:19 +0100
Organization: Posted via ULCC Internet Services
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <374DB65F.86F7B8C8@ulcc.ac.uk>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <373c310e.240459472@news.supernews.com> <7i11lk$ed3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3746DBCC.2C127D9C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7ia8ps$ail$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
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Joe Smith wrote:
...
> 
> With TOPS-10, sources and binaries were bundled in with the hardware.
> New sources were delivered automatically to all customers with a software
> maintenance contract.
> 
> With TOPS-20, only binaries were bundled in with the hardware.  As I remember
> it, sources were an additional $60,000 per release. 
 
Absolutely. AFAIR, the only source bits of the monitor that shipped were
the bits that defined static tables (such as job and process tables),
to allow you to build a new monitor tuned to your environment. However,
the FORTRAN compiler shipped with full source (in BLISS-10) and
copies of the EXEC source were widely available in an unofficial
way, which led to the availability of lots of user-written EXEC
extensions. (It also allowed us to build an April Fools Day version
of the EXEC, but that's another story...)
-----
Kevin Ashley     http://www.ulcc.ac.uk/Staff/Kevin+Ashley


Article 5200 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "R. Terry McCutchen" <fbeast@ mail.nwnexus.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 03:16:00 -0400
Organization: WinStar NorthWest Nexus
Lines: 58
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Joe Smith wrote in message <7ia8ps$ail$1@shell3.ba.best.com>...
>In article <3746DBCC.2C127D9C@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>Alan H. Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> TOPS10 shipped sources as an integral part; TOPS20 had a source
>>> tape that could be bought for a very high price (there were
>>> advantages to this but I won't go into them here).  ...
>>
>>I recall being told that the TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 full source+binary
licenses
>>had identical prices; it was just that you could buy a binary-only TOPS-20
>>license, and no such thing existed for TOPS-10.
>
>No way.
>
>With TOPS-10, sources and binaries were bundled in with the hardware.
>New sources were delivered automatically to all customers with a software
>maintenance contract.
>
>With TOPS-20, only binaries were bundled in with the hardware.  As I
remember
>it, sources were an additional $60,000 per release.  When a new version of
the
>OS came out, the binaries were shipped automatically, but you had to pay
the
>source license fee all over again to get new sources.  (I do not know if
>there was a discount.)
> -Joe
>
>--
>INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock.
>  (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.)

>See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War
Planets"

TOPS-10 was developed by digital;   Tops-20 was BBN TenNex and required the
"BBN PAGE BOX".  Tops-10 had evolved from the KA10 through the KI10 as a
Real Memory (Swap) not a virtual memory (18 bit Address ...). Tops-20 was a
pure virtual memory system.
Around here we realized that the structure on memory access was LOTS more
important than the instruction set (something that Gordon Bell never
realized) {Pls recall that digital had LARGE manufacturing plants at that
time}.

We had always a battle internally for the specification of HOW MUCH memory
would be required.The VAX was originally going to be a variant of the KL10
(as was the ill fated PDP-15KL). On ML5-5 we had a KL-10 (Actually I believe
a KS 10) running TenNex with 32Kw that was a prototype for the follow-up for
the 11/45. The intrent was for RSTS and TOPS to merge into a single
offering.

/s/ Terry





Article 5216 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d1
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel
Date: Sun, 30 May 99 10:23:29 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <7ira1b$hbc$6@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <qh90ahfuo8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <FC9uux.Hzo@world.std.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa <FCIzrM.Ez8@world.std.com>
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In article <FCIzrM.Ez8@world.std.com>, mbg@world.std.com (Megan) wrote:
>p98mccabe@alltel.net (Micheal H. McCabe) writes:
>
>>In article <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>> We had to have all those oddball devices because we supported
>>> them.
>
>>What a novel concept!
>
>That's what we tried to do in the RT-11 support lab... we had (as much as
>possible) at least one of every device available from DEC... that
>way when an SPR came in, we could test it out on as close to the
>same system config as the customer was using.
>
>This is also part of the reason we didn't *support* non-DEC hardware...

But we did support non-DEC hardware.  One of our biggest selling
points (this was before your time, Megan) was that we could talk
to other manufacturers' hardware.  So customers could have a 
mixed bag of hardware satisfying all their various flavors of
users (especially those IBMers).

What we  (TOPS10) were not prepared to do (and that was done 
by a group known as Computer Special Systems) was schedule our 
developer time to implement that hardware.  That's why so many of our
customers had clever monitor people.  A side effect of "allowing"
our customers to do their own development was that we ended up
with very educated customers.  IMO, that was a plus.  

Another one of our mistakes is that we stopped listening to those
customers.


>we just couldn't have afforded to have one of everything else... so
>we told people that they'd have to reproduce the problem on purely
>DEC equipment before we could accept the problem report (though we
>generally still tried to fix the problem since whatever hardware the
>customer had, it was probably some sort of look-similar for a device
>we *did* have)

This was a maintenance issue that, I believe, was handled badly.
The process that was imposed on us that determined the flavors
of maintenance and our answers to that maintenance was just
a bullshit load of bureuocracy (how do you spell that word?).
The system of rules that we had to follow were never based on
common sense, IME.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5232 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL1026/Gidney [was Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)]
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:48:57 -0400
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <7j0oca$hu4$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com><7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <qh90ahfuo8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <FC9uux.Hzo@world.std.com><7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com><7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com><7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <ALDERSON.99May31152727@netcom2.netcom.com>
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Richard M. Alderson III wrote in message ...
>In article <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> "Gregory A. Scott"
><gscott@scott.com> writes:
<snip>

>Hey, Greg, did you know that you left the -20 side un-login-able with the
>security hacks turned on?  I had to hack in through the monitor on the
console,
>to turn off password checking in the LOGIN% JSYS to use the system when I
was
>visiting Dick Greeley to pick up some of the software XKL licensed.


Well I can't take complete credit for making the system unloginable. A lot
of people had their hands on Gidney towards the end. I never visited 1026
(actually 1042) and Gidney after they were exiled to NIO, but I know I
logged in to GSCOTT there. So it probably wasn't me.

On the other hand, if you tried to login to OPERATOR or F-S remotely, you
couldn't have done that for years.

In the glory days, would try to hack Gidney (aka tops20.dec.com) all of the
time. (This was when there was only a handful of systems in DEC that had
access to the internet and there was lots of Corporate Paperwork and
Procedures to go through to justify our connection, which we had from the
days of 2102 and DEC-MARLBORO.)

Jeanne Dusseault had a bunch of programs that would run around and check the
status of EVERY directory on the CFS cluster every night. I think it used to
email her a report as well. We ended up writing some cool spy-on-the-hacker
tools (easy to do, it was kinda like PHOTO but from another terminal), and I
beefed up the ACJ to watch for Unusual Things.

Maybe some well meaning person tightened the security a bit too much at some
point.  In the last couple of years, you hardly needed security on gidney,
because it was only accessible inside DEC and it wasn't running VMS.

>(And going further back, you and I met during the 7.0 field test, when I
was at
>Stanford.)

Oh yes, I remember you Rich.  We also met at one of the Anaheim DECUSes, as
I recall. Thanks for keeping the flame at XKL.

Greg
greg@scott.com




Article 5222 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d5
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 09:52:26 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <7itsjg$355$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <3746DBCC.2C127D9C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7ia8ps$ail$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7io48e$a5f$1@brokaw.wa.com> <FCKsEp.6tn@world.std.com> <7ithbi$2q8$1@news.latrobe.edu.au>
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In article <7ithbi$2q8$1@news.latrobe.edu.au>,
   cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) wrote:
>Sam Weiner (weiner@world.std.com) wrote:
>
>: TOPS-10 ended up paging though I forget if it was 
>: in 6.0x or not until 7.01.
>: Anyone remember?
>
>I was about to say 6.03 but now I'm not so sure it wasn't 
>7.01. I seem to recall we weren't licenced to run it, just 
>someone built the monitor wrong :-)  We soon moved back 
>to swapping (lots) as the -10 tried to support 70+ users
>on 256KW.

TOPS10's version number went from 5.nn to 6.nn (6.01) with the 
advent of VMSER.MAC which was an unbundled product until
we smushed everything together, simplifying packaging,
licensing, etc.  DEC had managed to unbundle just about 
everything but the kitchen sink by then.  I know that 7.01
was another excuse to get everything back onto one tape.
The VM part of the filename stood for
virtual memory.  That should give you guys a hint about
when things happened.  

I seem to recall that the inhouse attitude w.r.t. PFH
was it eventually was a crock (but I can't remember
why that came about).  But it was developed
on ML5-5 by Peter. So that means that it had to be a
KA to KI or a KI to KA compatibility code.

I just can't seem to remember when I was allowed to 
move PFH.MAC to the Customer Supported Tape (or its
equivalent in those days).  I do know that I argued
long and hard with Magee about where it should go;
it was one of those issues that I had to resort to
going to Jim and have him tell Magee what should be
done.  ...grumble...mumble...My biggest sexual 
discrimination problems were from other women...not men.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5221 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail
From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: 31 May 1999 01:47:04 -0700
Organization: Chez Inwap
Message-ID: <7itia8$6pk$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <7ia8ps$ail$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7io48e$a5f$1@brokaw.wa.com> <FCKsEp.6tn@world.std.com>
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In article <FCKsEp.6tn@world.std.com>, Sam Weiner <weiner@world.std.com> wrote:
>TOPS-10 ended up paging though I forget if it was in 6.0x or not until 7.01.
>Anyone remember?

603A was the last TOPS-10 Monitor that ran on the KA.
To run an EXE file, the entire file had to be read into physical memory.
If memory was tight, the core image would immediately be paged out to
the swapping disk.  Then individual pages could be paged back in on demand
from swap space.

Anyone remember when PFH.EXE disappeared?
	-Joe
-- 
INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock.
  (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.)
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"


Article 5224 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news
From: "Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Living legends
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:22:49 -0400
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <7itv3s$lk7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>
References: <fc.1dcede5a616700001dcede5a4acde365.401481a@city.magnet.at> <7ia8ps$ail$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7io48e$a5f$1@brokaw.wa.com> <FCKsEp.6tn@world.std.com> <7itia8$6pk$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
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Joe Smith <inwap@best.com> wrote in message
news:7itia8$6pk$1@shell3.ba.best.com...
> In article <FCKsEp.6tn@world.std.com>, Sam Weiner
<weiner@world.std.com> wrote:
> >TOPS-10 ended up paging though I forget if it was in 6.0x or not
until 7.01.
> >Anyone remember?
>
> 603A was the last TOPS-10 Monitor that ran on the KA.
> To run an EXE file, the entire file had to be read into physical
memory.
> If memory was tight, the core image would immediately be paged out
to
> the swapping disk.  Then individual pages could be paged back in
on demand
> from swap space.
>
> Anyone remember when PFH.EXE disappeared?
> -Joe
> --

Branching out a little, when the KA101 was replaced, I remember that
when we went to a KL, I was working on some crystallographic
programs.  I think the limits were (in general) 30k real and 60k
virtual.  Which meant that a 40k (initial) job might not work if it
needed the to be read in all the time.

What I did (after reading the instructions as to what VM did) was to
write a short segment of code which when the program started
running, I would page out every other page in the lowseg.  This got
the page fault handler running (you needed a page fault to get it
started).  So I might allocate 60meg to a job, it would settle down
eventually to about 40-45k - just the matrix, the least squares calc
and the Fortran.  These things ran in batch for several hours.  And
these jobs would accumulate run time much more quickly than the jobs
the computer center were running at higher priority - they ran in
all physical, and as far as I could tell, would get swapped out much
more often.




Article 5231 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d3
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ]
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:09:54 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7hu6ll$j8n$3@antiochus.ultra.net>
	<7huao7$j7d@weyl.math.psu.edu> <7hucpm$500$1@antiochus.ultra.net>
	<7hug95$jce@weyl.math.psu.edu> <7i0pip$nrh$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
	<qhzp2xf005.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<7i8msa$u94$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <qhiu9gfvq9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<ALDERSON.99May26163648@netcom2.netcom.com>
	<qhhfoxn09w.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> <ALDERSON.99May31154453@netcom2.netcom.com>
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In article <ALDERSON.99May31154453@netcom2.netcom.com>,
   alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
>In article <qhhfoxn09w.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
><eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:
>
>>OK.  So a typical scenario might have been:
>
>>1)  Buy a PDP-10
>>2)  Obtain a copy of TOPS-10 licensed to run on the PDP-10
>>3)  Buy an SC30
>
>>Question:
>
>>What software do you run on the SC30?
>
>You run the Tops-10 that you obtained with your PDP-10, 
>having added the SC mods to the sources.  You had to call 
>SC rather than DEC/Digital for software
>support if you couldn't fix it yourself; Fred Wright was pretty good.

So was there an SCSER.MAC instead of KLSER.MAC?  

<snip>

>Then, in article <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com>, R. Terry McCutchen
>(<fbeast@ mail.nwnexus.com>) wrote:
>
>>What  is an SC30?
>
>It was SC's first model of PDP-10 clone, roughly 2.4 
>times as fast as a KL10 on an average job mix.  It came 
>with an SA channel, an MI channel (Massbuss), a CI
>channel, and an EI channel (NIA-20 workalike, down to the 
>bad design decisions) for I/O; up to 8MW of memory, although 
>they didn't get Tops-20 to use more than
>4MW as long as I had a machine--the changes done 
>by S** G******* were lost in a head crash on an unbacked-up 
>disk on their KI, and no one could re-create them.

<snip>

A similar thing happened when Jim and Dan were doing the KL
code (you didn't know that the KL almost became toast, did you?).
Jim and Dan did their development on the same stand alone pack using
one of the breadboards KLs in hardware engineering.  It was 
usually the habit to "forget" to spin down and remove their
pack...probably because JMF did his work during the 3:00-12:00
shift and Dan would pick up when Jim left off.  

One day, a Person from diagnositics had the system stand alone
to test his "zero the pack" diagnostic.  He saw a pack on the
disk and decided to use it for his test.  His diagnostic worked
so well, he wiped out all of Software Engineering's KL work.
At the time, everybody believed that it was gone since nobody
had put the pack on a regular backup schedule.  Then Jim came
in and was told about the disaster.  One week before the 
Person did his best to scuttle the project, Jim was carrying
the pack through our machine room and saw Dave, the operator.
Just on an impulse he handed the pack to Dave and asked for
a backup to be done if Dave had a spare moment.  Jim being 
Jim did not write out a work request (in those days, 
operators weren't allowed to do "extra" work without a 
work request), so Jim didn't think that Dave got around to
doing the backup.  Everybody had to wait until Dave came in
because there wasn't a record of the backup.  Dave came
in and discovered that he was the most popular guy in the
world that day.  He had done the backup because it was
Jim who had asked him and Software Engineering only lost
one week's worth of work.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5242 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d9
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ]
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 09:10:43 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <7j32tq$csp$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5242 alt.folklore.computers:131222

In article <qhd7zf6j06.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
   Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>Richard M. Alderson III <alderson@netcom2.netcom.com> wrote:
>> and Digital (it had changed by then) would not license any
>> of the software for non-Digital hardware.
>
>I wrote:
>> OK.  So a typical scenario might have been:
>> 1)  Buy a PDP-10
>> 2)  Obtain a copy of TOPS-10 licensed to run on the PDP-10
>> 3)  Buy an SC30
>> Question:
>> What software do you run on the SC30?
>
>Richard wrote:
>> You run the Tops-10 that you obtained with your PDP-10, 
>
>So you're saying that all of SC's customers violated their license
>agreements with DEC (assuming that they didn't write their own operating
>systems or run ITS)?  If true, why did DEC tolerate this?

I don't see where the violation occurred.  They bought hardware,
got the software and continued to pay maintenance.  What they
actually ran was their business....as long as they didn't 
insist that _we_ fix their problems.  Lots of cash came in,
and we didn't have to spend any money to maintain them.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5250 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d4
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 09:30:25 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <7j5of4$knj$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <qh90ahfuo8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <FC9uux.Hzo@world.std.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <FCIzrM.Ez8@world.std.com> <375642e4.72160390@news.kivex.com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5250

In article <375642e4.72160390@news.kivex.com>,
   nospam-gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner) wrote:
>>That's what we tried to do in the RT-11 support lab... we had (as much as
>>possible) at least one of every device available from DEC... that
>>way when an SPR came in, we could test it out on as close to the
>>same system config as the customer was using.
>>
>>This is also part of the reason we didn't *support* non-DEC hardware...
>>we just couldn't have afforded to have one of everything else... so
>>we told people that they'd have to reproduce the problem on purely
>>DEC equipment before we could accept the problem report (though we
>>generally still tried to fix the problem since whatever hardware the
>>customer had, it was probably some sort of look-similar for a device
>>we *did* have)
>
>If the problem seemed to involve a design defect in code written by
>DEC, then there was a great deal of interest in fixing it. But if the
>problem was that the code worked for DEC hardware, but not for other
>types, then there wasn't that much interest. This seemed to make
>sense. There was no particular resentment about other manufacturer's
>hardware, but we had enough problems with our own stuff. Still, if
>there was time, we dealt with the problem.

Another criteria was the size of the customer.  ORNL tended to get
a lot of attention.  Jim's first job at DEC involved living in
a hotel room down there for a long time (in his opinion).  From
his stories about that time, the PDP-12 stuff was murder.

>
>As an example, there came a time when the remote station DN8x software
>became completely unmaintainable, so we did an entire rewrite, turning
>all the device block stuff into macros. During that process we
>collected up all the SPR's that had been sent in complaining that if
>we'd done things differently, then customers could add other devices
>more easily. We read through them to determine how to do things
>differently and better. After the rewrite, it was FAR easier to add
>third party hardware. So many of these old SPR's eventually got dealt
>with, although in some cases it took years.

One of the things that Software Engineering did to clean up messes
like that was remastering the CUSP tape to just one physical magtape.
IIRC, there were 21 "updates" which also involved several flavors
of SCAN and WILD.

>
>Warning: Old codger's gripe follows. You may want to skip this part...
>
>We were, at that time (early 70's) learning how to write code that
>could be installed without destroying a running system and then
>maintained. We learned a lot, and sometimes it's discouraging that
>many of these lessons seem to have been forgotten. I just bought a
>program for a Windows environment, and found that it wouldn't install
>properly unless the Windows system directory was located on
>C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM (which it wasn't on this machine). No error message,
>it just didn't work right.
>
>I remember the level of testing that went on before code could slip by
>the release group at LCG... it's clear that nothing like that level of
>work was done with this product, or many of the products that are
>released today.

As the -10 groups did business over the years, we figured out how
to do all that with various source management systems and testing
procedures.  I don't think those would work with a distribution
such as Msoft has.  The SPR aspect of it would just bury us.  All
that backlog of unanswered SPRs was one of the "facts" that was 
used to end the -10 business.  It was "proof" that our code and
systems were not maintainable.

I'm very interested in how this open source business is working...
or not.  Watching how it works is on my list of "things to do
someday".

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5257 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!206.40.72.101.MISMATCH!kiowa!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d3
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux
 popularity) ]
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 09:21:51 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <7j8cba$ik4$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <qhzp2xf005.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> 	<7i8msa$u94$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <qhiu9gfvq9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> 	<ALDERSON.99May26163648@netcom2.netcom.com> 	<qhhfoxn09w.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> <ALDERSON.99May31154453@netcom2.netcom.com> <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <qhd7zf6j06.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <7j32tq$csp$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <qhso8annn3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <7j5otf$knj$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37574950.42ABB8D@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5257 alt.folklore.computers:131371

In article <37574950.42ABB8D@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <qhso8annn3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
>>    Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>....
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >> I don't see where the violation occurred.  They bought hardware,
>> >> got the software and continued to pay maintenance.  What they
>> >> actually ran was their business....as long as they didn't
>> >> insist that _we_ fix their problems.  Lots of cash came in,
>> >> and we didn't have to spend any money to maintain them.
>
>If only they'd priced service to make a profit, eh?

<snip>

Alan, how in the world do you think DEC was profitable?  The PDP-10
product line just didn't get the "credit" because of the way the
books worked.  Software Engineering was a _credit_ center...not
a profit center.  In other words, it "lost" money by design.
JMF always wanted the -10 world to get really separated from the
rest of DEC.  That way, if we sunk, it was because we did it...not
those small computer thinkers doing it to us.


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5276 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 11:02:48 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 116
Message-ID: <7k5ifp$20e$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <qh90ahfuo8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <FC9uux.Hzo@world.std.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iplac$nvq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5276

In article <7iplac$nvq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
   "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com> wrote:
>
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>...
>>>Hey MRO guys! Remember when the tri-SMP 10 in Marlboro
>>>(1026/1042/1322) was
>>>running backups, the light show was just awesome?
>>What light show?
>
>
>Barb, the Ampex may have been installed you left. 

It must have been.

>F-S eventually supported Ampex ARM10 memory,  ...

Damn, it only took them a decade+ to catch up :-).

> and the 
>1026/1042/1322 ran from that one box with 4 meg
>in it. It had a translucent front cover with lots of lights inside.
>
>F-S ditched the old MF10 boxes, which had labels like "S/N PROTO" and "S/N
>BREAD" just after official support was obtained for Ampex.
>
>KL1026 of that era featured RH10/DF10C and RH20s for 
>the RP0x, DX20s talking
>to RP20s and dual ported TX02/03/TU70/72/73s.  The light show was featured
>on the Ampex, on the SELECT A B lights on the drives, and the TU7x drives.

So it must have been similar to the stuff I saw at ORNL.

>
>>We had to have all those oddball devices because we supported
>>them.  If we supported a piece of hardware, it was a requirement
>>that we be able to test the software and use them for debugging.
>
>
>Yeah I remember seeing a card punch on 1026, never mind one of every kinda
>front end, ANF10 included.

You weren't around for that plotter (which never worked).  Well, we
didn't have quite every kinda front end.  DC71s and 72s weren't around
when you were :-).


>
>>As a matter of fact, we had to keep a 7-track tape drive on
>>the end of one of those TU70 strings because there was still
>>a customer who ordered 7-track tapes.  (It would have been
>>cheaper just to give them a 9-track but managers didn't seem
>>to know how to count back then.)
>
>Well the code was a little different for 7 track tapes, so it wasn't
>unreasonable to have one (I think it was designated a TU71, but I may be
>wrong).

Yup.  I think it was TU71; I was going to say it but I'm so bad
with my hardware cybercrud that I didn't want to generate more 
posts just to correct me so I didn't mention it :-).

>
>>And I don't remember having
>>AMPEX memory.  That was also because of support reasons.  JMF
>>would have loved to have had AMPEX memory but Digital, in its
>>infinite wisdom (read that idiocy) insisted that we develop
>>based on its old technology.  Our 5-CPU customer site did
>>use AMPEX so that hardware checkout was covered when we did
>>the software development.
>
>I think that 5 CPU customer was Oak Ridge National Labs.  Five KL10s.

Yup.  I even got to visit those sites.  They had other sites, but
not five KLs' worth.  Dwayne gave Jim a configuration map of the
5-CPU site.  Jim had it on his office wall.  One day, in the
process of moving, he removed them and put them on his desk in
his new office.  The next day, he came in and they were gone.
He came home just absolutely shattered.  Later in the week,
his co-horts presented him with the config nicely framed.
There were two other posters that had also disappeared to
get framed.  He was touched (and very glad that somebody
hadn't stolen his pictures).

>
>We also had ARM20 Ampex memory at Energy Enterprises, and it worked very
>well, once you got the SBUS card timing set properly.
>
>>If it weren't for our customers'
>>cooperation, Digital would have been out of business in 1981.
>
>LCG certainly depended on having loyal customers, that's for sure.  I was
>one of them... when I worked at Energy Enterprises in Denver, I had to
>educate our sales droid on the entire 36 bit product line.  This 
>wouldn't be so bad, cause you would get a free lunch. When it 
>came time to order stuff,
>it helped if you got ahold of the real part numbers then helped the
>salesdummy fill out the paperwork. (You could always call folks in 
>Marlboro to get those numbers.)  The problem really was that all 
>of the good sales people left after they had a bit of experience 
>to work somewhere where they
>were on commission.  I don't blame them, but it could be 
>frustrating putting up with them.

Yea, we had arguments about whether there should be commissions
or not.  The year that they combined the mini sales force with
the mainframe sales force got good results.  One mini sales'
type was so pleased that he could fill his yearly sales quota 
with one PDP-10 sale.  When I heard about that, I had not 
realized that sales departement had become so bad.  Our
theory was that that organization really was a subsidiary
of IBM.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5311 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.44.7!wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: simulators vs ... compilers?
References: <54674ky7u5.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> <7kfs97$8f1$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119
From: werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme)
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <zSfb3.1081$Wr1.38836@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:41:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.109.10
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>In article <54674ky7u5.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>,
>   Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com> wrote:
>>Has anyone tried to write a COMPILER (and associated libraries) for
>>macro-10/20 (and/or fail, and/or midas)?  It wouldn't be as cool, but
>>it might be a lot easier, and it might be useful.

>Why would you want to do that?  

One of the things that gets lost in the "wouldn't it be neat to have a
PDP-10 emulator" mantra is that many of the things that made
programming and using the -10 still wouldn't be conveniently available
outside of the -10 environment.

One of the most wonderful aspects of MACRO-10 was its macro language.  It
had loops, string variables, you could process items one character at
a time (IRPC).  All these are alien concepts to C programmers, and the
typical Unix assembler is simply woeful.

With MACRO-10, TOPS-10 could build the database for its file systems
at OS build time, the Lexical analysis piece of TULIP I/O Package let
you write lexical analysis "instructions" that were far more readable
than the pseudo-code a macro generated.  Once, as a hack, I wrote something
where I could give a macro a list of keywords and the macro generated a
tree-structured parse table for the names.

I looked a m4 once, wow - about 20 years ago, and wrote it off as
uninteresting.

Microsoft's Z80 assembler had many of the same features (back in those
days Microsoft had a PDP-10).

.SOAPBOX
We're missing the boat here w.r.t many of the things that made the -10
special.  The last month has been very busy, but I hope to prepare some
WWW pages, each highlighting one of my favorite aspects of the -10. I
spent part of an evening in a hotel room typing a TULIP page off the
top of my head.  It's surprising how few things I'll have to check the
source code to get right!

I've thought of writing the macro processing part of MACRO-10 in C, but I
think that will have to wait for retirement!
--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5318 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Daniel B Dobkin" <dbd@abanet.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: simulators vs ... compilers?
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:34:45 -0400
Organization: Law Office of Daniel B. Dobkin
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <930083689.015.65@news.remarQ.com>
References: <54674ky7u5.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>
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In article <zSfb3.1081$Wr1.38836@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, 
werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) wrote:

> One of the most wonderful aspects of MACRO-10 was its macro language.  It
> had loops, string variables, you could process items one character at
> a time (IRPC).  All these are alien concepts to C programmers, and the
> typical Unix assembler is simply woeful.

It's been a long time since I took up any of this, but I think you've hit
on it exactly.  MACRO-20 was in many ways the easiest of the many languages
I used; when I moved to VMS, one of my projects was adding some new
functionality to a brain-damaged DCL script.  Since the script I was working
from was so bad, I decided to rewrite it structured as a MACRO-20 program.
Skip returns from subroutines and everything.  I was told, years later, that
the new structure made adding the next new feature a snap (which was my
point exactly).  AFAIK it's still in use at a major New York bank.


\dbd

Daniel B Dobkin                               dbd@abanet.org
Attorney at Law                               (516) 466-6969  voice
525 Northern Boulevard                        (516) 466-6958  fax
Great Neck, NY  11021

General Practice & Business Technology Matters



Article 5306 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu
Organization: University of Michigan
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
From: sarr@moshpit.rs.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson)
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In article <7kig1d$49t$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>
>BLISS-10 was supported to the extent that fixes were needed in
>order to compile the lanaguages that used it, e.g., FORTRAN-10.
>We did not ship a source tape, IIRC, since we did not want
>to fully support it.  I don't know where it came from.
>Sara would know.

Originally from Bill Wulf's group at CMU.  The book "Design of an Optimizing
Compiler" (or something close to that) by Wulf and a herd of grad students
(at least one of which [Steve Hobbs] ended up at DEC) describes it's
development IIRC.

No, I'm not Sara.

-- 
--------
Sarr Blumson                    sarr@umich.edu
voice: +1 734 764 0253          home: +1 734 665 9591
ITD, University of Michigan     http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/


Article 5309 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: 21 Jun 1999 00:09:23 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
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David M. Razler (david.razler@worldnet.att.net) wrote:

: Not sure, was BLISS-10 a DECUS program or a DEC supported program? I seem to
: recall it was DECUS.

It was on catagory four support from Digital. What this meant was that
you could send in SPRs but there was no guarantee that anything would
happen as a result.
--
 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer to be played
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | in the air, the sky would be green" 


Article 5298 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bugs@freebsd.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: 19 Jun 1999 17:32:19 -0500
Organization: Netcom
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cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) writes:
>In another mailing list that I belong to (the classic computer mailing list)
>there has been a discussion about BLISS-10 and why it was not looked upon
>favorably by Digital. 

MODULE

If my memory serves me right Bliss was developed at CMU and there were
connections between Gordon Bell/CMU/Digital.  

Few things on the 10 were actually written in a high level language, most
stuff was written in Macro-10.  I think the Fortran-77 (the time tested
language of wisdom) compiler was written in Bliss-10.

There was a Bliss-36, a Bliss-16, and a Bliss-32.  Lots of VMS stuff was
written in Bliss-32.  Bliss-11 may have been Decus, but a source license
for Bliss-32 was probably a lot harder to get :-).  Bliss-10 came with
source code in the tradition of 10-ness and was not Decus.

I think Bliss was part of the Gordon Bell strategy to have one single 
basket for everybody.  Instead of having multiple platforms with their
own assembly language development teams they could all convert to Bliss
and everything would be cheaper.  Obviously there was great resistance
internally and from the customer bases using the platforms that were....
huff....going to "disappear".

Later we'd heard that Gordon was working for Bill Gates as an "advisor".
I wonder how much of Windows/NT is written in Bliss?.  I wonder if there
is a Visual Bliss compiler in the dungeons of Redmond? :-)

ELUDOM :-)

Mark Hittinger   (KL1059)
Mindspring/Netcom/Dallas
bugs@freebsd.netcom.com


Article 5299 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:17:52 -0400
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
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Mark Hittinger <bugs@freebsd.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7kh5pj$fe0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com...
> Few things on the 10 were actually written in a high level
language, most
> stuff was written in Macro-10.  I think the Fortran-77 (the time
tested
> language of wisdom) compiler was written in Bliss-10.
>

Before there was Fortran-77, there was Fortran-10 (or F10), and that
compiler (I think) used Bliss, as opposed to Fortran-40 (F40) which
did not.




Article 5308 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom17.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: 20 Jun 1999 22:45:24 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5308

In article <7kigdi$49t$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>In article <7kh5pj$fe0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>   bugs@freebsd.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:

>>Few things on the 10 were actually written in a high level language, most
>>stuff was written in Macro-10.  I think the Fortran-77 (the time tested
>>language of wisdom) compiler was written in Bliss-10.

>Nope, FORTRAN-10.  Did we even do a Fortran-77?  The -10 and -20 DECnet was
>done in BLISS-36 (which was worse to package with than BLISS-10).

Yup.  Fortran-10 v. 7 was the first Fortran 77 version of Fortran-10; versions
10 and 11 were improvements thereto.  There was, of course, no Fortran 90...

>>There was a Bliss-36, a Bliss-16, and a Bliss-32.  Lots of VMS stuff was
>>written in Bliss-32.  

>And these were different from BLISS-10 and BLISS-11.

They certainly were.  Bliss-36 cost *lots* of money when it came out as a
product; BLISS-10 was sent out for free with Fortran (and the Tops-20 EXEC,
because there were some extensions written--at CMU, naturally--in BLISS-10).

A couple or four years ago, Digital announced that Bliss-32 was being made
freely available, source and all, to the VMS universe.  Since the Bliss-36
sources were the same (different compilation switches), I convinced the folks
handling licensing for XKL that Bliss-36 should be treated the same way for
PDP-10 customers...
--
Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 5315 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <7kh5pj$fe0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com><7kigdi$49t$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <ALDERSON.99Jun20154524@netcom17.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
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> >>Few things on the 10 were actually written in a high level language,
most
> >>stuff was written in Macro-10.  I think the Fortran-77 (the time tested
> >>language of wisdom) compiler was written in Bliss-10.
>
> >Nope, FORTRAN-10.  Did we even do a Fortran-77?  The -10 and -20 DECnet
was
> >done in BLISS-36 (which was worse to package with than BLISS-10).
>
There were, of course, various flavors of DECnet. The "native" -10 stuff
(ANF-10) was originally written in pure assembler, but then, as I recall,
rewritten in part in BLISS-10 in the era of the "BLISS is Ignorance" button
days (I still have mine). The VAX/-11 style DECnet was written in part in
BLISS, in a vain hope that it would have been a simple port. It wasn't.

I don't recall this -10 side VAX style DECnet ever being released to
customers, though. Instead, the DN8x front ends mediated between ANF-10
style DECnet and VAX/-11 style DECnet, turning it all into ANF-10 style on
the -10 side. I don't recall that the -10 side code was BLISSed, although I
could well be wrong. I know some of this code was being written in BLISS,
but again, I don't recall it being released that way. Maybe after I left in
1976 this was changed.

I wrote a fair amount of BLISS code, and liked it pretty well. One thing
that kept it from being well received in -10 land was that PDP6/10/20
machine language with appropriate macros was so easy to write. And debugging
was simplicity -- at that time high level debuggers were flawed at best, and
there was no BLISS debugger. So you had to figure out what code the BLISS
compiler would generate, and how it related to the source, then try to trace
it through. Because BLISS was largely stack oriented, that meant taking lots
of time searching up and down the stack for pointers to values. It was
easier just to implement the program in assembler. In fact, much of the
BLISS code that I wrote started out as assembler, and then was hand-coded in
BLISS to try and get the compiler to generate something like what the
assembler did. If -10 machine language had been as awful as, say, 360
assembler, then BLISS would have been a great success throughout LCG.

There is a relevant note from Bill Gosper in HACKMEM, to this effect: The
myth that a language can be machine independant is easily exploded by
considering the simple problem of adding one repeatedly to a variable,
trapping and dismissing any interrupts caused. If the number becomes
negative zero, then it's a two's complement machine. If it becomes negative
one, then it's a one's complement machine. If the machine halts with an
overflow, then it's a machine designed by somebody with a read only mind.

This applies when trying to write operating system code for networking in
higher level languages. The VAX and the -10 were sufficiently different that
deciding which portions had to be assembler coded and then trying to debug
took longer than just assembly coding the whole thing. So that's why it was
assembly language coded and then translated into BLISS, checking that the
compiler didn't screw up too badly and lose the desirable side-effects.
Things are somewhat different now, particularly with sophisticated debuggers
and tools like lint, and now about the only excuse for writing in assembler
is that you need precise control over the timing of events or the sequence
of instruction execution.

I think that the primary lesson to be learned from BLISS-xx is that a good
compiler isn't enough -- you must have debuggers and other support tools.
These were not really available.






Article 5320 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!weiner
From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner)
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Message-ID: <FDrG78.A1x@world.std.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 03:25:49 GMT
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <376ca79c.49856187@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <7kig1d$49t$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <Wscb3.1606$FK.34615@news.itd.umich.edu>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 38
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In article <Wscb3.1606$FK.34615@news.itd.umich.edu>,
Sarr J. Blumson <sarr@umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <7kig1d$49t$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>BLISS-10 was supported to the extent that fixes were needed in
>>order to compile the lanaguages that used it, e.g., FORTRAN-10.
>>We did not ship a source tape, IIRC, since we did not want
>>to fully support it.  I don't know where it came from.
>>Sara would know.
>
>Originally from Bill Wulf's group at CMU.  The book "Design of an Optimizing
>Compiler" (or something close to that) by Wulf and a herd of grad students
>(at least one of which [Steve Hobbs] ended up at DEC) describes it's
>development IIRC.

Very close, just stick "The" in front.  ISBN 0-444-00158-1 (paper) or
0-444-00164-6 (hard) from Elsevier.  This describes BLISS-11 (DECUS
10-213) which came after BLISS-10 and before BLISS-36 and its Common
BLISS siblings.  In addition to better optimization, BLISS-11 improved
the macro facility compared to BLISS-10.  Common BLISS was even better
in these areas.

Even BLISS-10 did some very clever things when you looked at the
generated code.  Since the macro facility was builtin and had some
knowledge of the language elements it was more useful than C's
preprocessor.  Of course, sometimes it was too clever sometimes, like
when I wrote a structure definition which generated a subroutine call
for each reference.  I changed that fast.

As far as source for BLISS-10, I think it was included by DEC.  Of course,
since we used a version straight from CMU which did have source, I wasn't
paying attention to say nothing of it being 25 years ago.  Came in handy
when we had to fix a bug in the compiler.

Sam





Article 5325 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <7kig1d$49t$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <Wscb3.1606$FK.34615@news.itd.umich.edu> <FDrG78.A1x@world.std.com>
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From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5325

In article <FDrG78.A1x@world.std.com>, Sam Weiner <weiner@world.std.com> wrote:
>>Originally from Bill Wulf's group at CMU.  The book "Design of an Optimizing
>>Compiler" (or something close to that) by Wulf and a herd of grad students
>>(at least one of which [Steve Hobbs] ended up at DEC) describes it's
>>development IIRC.
>
>Very close, just stick "The" in front.  ISBN 0-444-00158-1 (paper) or
>0-444-00164-6 (hard) from Elsevier.

FYI, when I got my copy (June '97) it was apparently available only from Books
on Demand.  I felt a little stupid paying $49.90 for a blurry paper-bound
photocopy with some of the pages crooked, but at least it beats being 100%
out of print.  I think I remember something about the old ISBN being NFG now,
but they were able to look it up from the title.  If anyone cares, this was
UMI in Ann Arbor MI, (313) 761-4700.

John Wilson
D Bit


Article 5321 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Nobody_Special@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 04:46:07 GMT
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BLISS was not "not looked upon favorably by Digital".  To the
contrary, BLISS was THE strategic system implementation language at
Digital for many years, as other replies have noted.  Compilers,
operating systems, network software, database systems, you-name-it,
was implemented in BLISS.  I wrote many thousands of lines of BLISS.

BLISS was never looked upon very favorably in 36-bit-land for a couple
of reasons.  One is that MACRO was the "true language" of 36-bit
implementation;  anything done in BLISS was looked at askance by most
36-bitters.  Another reason is that BLISS was really best targeted to
architectures with byte-addressability.  As soon as you needed to keep
36-bit byte-pointers in BLISS, with the funny "@" dereferencing
syntax, things got ugly fast.  BLISS was, I think, originally
developed for the -10, but ironically enough it just never worked very
well there compared to the -11 and the VAX.

Gordon Bell was the Father of the BLISS Strategy at Digital.  Although
he is at Microsoft now, it's a safe bet that there isn't any BLISS in
Windows, especially Windows NT.  Dave Cutler was the Father of Windows
NT, and he hated BLISS with a passion at Digital;  he once demanded
that the DEC VP of Software (Heffner) fire the whole BLISS group, just
because they were the BLISS group and this was by definition a useless
waste of corporate resources;  I have a copy of this memo.

There is much more, but it is not well to dwell too much on the
past.........

--Nobody Special

cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) wrote:

>In another mailing list that I belong to (the classic computer mailing list)
>there has been a discussion about BLISS-10 and why it was not looked upon
>favorably by Digital. 
>
>Would anyone like to comment about this? I'd heard that BLISS wasn't exactly
>flavour of the month, but I'd always assumed that this was a bad case
>of NIH, but perhaps there's more to this than just that.
>
>I should point out that I'm biased, as I believe that there was no better
>systems implementation language, but I could be convinced (I really doubt
>this :-)
>
>--
> Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
> Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
> La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer to be played
> Melbourne Australia 3083        | in the air, the sky would be green" 



Article 5322 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:38:20 -0700
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> BLISS was never looked upon very favorably in 36-bit-land for a couple
> of reasons.  One is that MACRO was the "true language" of 36-bit
> implementation;  anything done in BLISS was looked at askance by most
> 36-bitters. 

For a good reason.  Anything written in BLISS was pretty much
unmaintainable by the vast majority of 36-bitters.  Most DEC software
written in BLISS was in BLISS-36, not BLISS-10, meaning that most people
didn't have the compiler.  CMU's PCL extensions for EXEC (which never
worked particularly reliably) were a good example; eventually some nice
person ran BLISS with the "list generated assembly code" option on those
files so we could have proper .MAC files to edit.

As I recall, the code generated by the BLISS compiler was horrible.  Most
C compilers on x86, Alpha, etc. can generate better code than a human can
write assembly by hand.  The situation was the exact opposite on the
PDP-10.

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State.	*
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.		*
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.




Article 5323 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 09:03:50 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article 
<Pine.NXT.4.20.9906222324400.20271-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:
>> BLISS was never looked upon very favorably in 36-bit-land for a couple
>> of reasons.  One is that MACRO was the "true language" of 36-bit
>> implementation;  anything done in BLISS was looked at askance by most
>> 36-bitters. 
>
>For a good reason.  Anything written in BLISS was pretty much
>unmaintainable by the vast majority of 36-bitters.  Most DEC software
>written in BLISS was in BLISS-36, not BLISS-10, meaning that most people
>didn't have the compiler. 

<snip>

Yup.  Even DEC's PDP-10 people didn't have it.  I had to have one
our developers do incredible cludges just to get the warnings
out of the compiles for packaging purposes.  Any problems with
BLISS-36 that we considered bugs were declared "features" and
not a problem by the idiots up north.  It was a royal PITA and
caused me to heap even further hexes on G. Bell.

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5326 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <37706667.3038342@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <Pine.NXT.4.20.9906222324400.20271-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
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From: werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme)
Lines: 45
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 02:21:36 GMT
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5326

Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

>> BLISS was never looked upon very favorably in 36-bit-land for a couple
>> of reasons.  One is that MACRO was the "true language" of 36-bit
>> implementation;  anything done in BLISS was looked at askance by most
>> 36-bitters. 

>For a good reason.  Anything written in BLISS was pretty much
>unmaintainable by the vast majority of 36-bitters.

When I was at C-MU, I rewrote some of my BLISS code in MACRO-10.
Between Macro and Tulip, I produced a better results.  Implementation
time was probably greater, but heck, if I wanted something quick, I'd
use SAIL, and Algol-like language from Stanford.

>As I recall, the code generated by the BLISS compiler was horrible.  Most
>C compilers on x86, Alpha, etc. can generate better code than a human can
>write assembly by hand.  The situation was the exact opposite on the
>PDP-10.

I guess I don't remember the code quality.  I do recall keeping tabs
on the object file size - it jumped up if I forgot a "." in front of a
variable.  One problem - BLISS wanted to pass arguments on the stack.
Assembler programmers use registers and on the -10 use certain
registers for pointers to things that needed to be passed to many
routines within a module, so the argument passing cost for them was
zero.

Last summer I rewrote Tru64 Unix's IP checksum routine (it's all assembler).
When I was done, I translated the assembler into C and tried that.  For
the first time in 30 years, a compiler beat my assembler code.  Somewhat
mortified, I looked at the generated code and found the C compiler was
keep different intermediate data that allowed it more latitude scheduling
instructions.  Rewrote my code to do that and finally came up with faster
code thanks to earlier memory fetches than the C compiler thought was safe.

I don't know if my code would have been faster if I started from scratch,
but boy, I sure can't recommend writing Alpha assembler unless you have
good evidence the C code is slow.


--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5327 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d15
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 09:16:13 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <7kt3mj$p6p$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <37706667.3038342@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <Pine.NXT.4.20.9906222324400.20271-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> <QCgc3.2767$Wr1.95137@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
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In article <QCgc3.2767$Wr1.95137@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>,
   werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) wrote:
>Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:
>
>>> BLISS was never looked upon very favorably in 36-bit-land for a couple
>>> of reasons.  One is that MACRO was the "true language" of 36-bit
>>> implementation;  anything done in BLISS was looked at askance by most
>>> 36-bitters. 
>
>>For a good reason.  Anything written in BLISS was pretty much
>>unmaintainable by the vast majority of 36-bitters.
>
>When I was at C-MU, I rewrote some of my BLISS code in MACRO-10.
>Between Macro and Tulip, I produced a better results.  Implementation
>time was probably greater, but heck, if I wanted something quick, I'd
>use SAIL, and Algol-like language from Stanford.
>
>>As I recall, the code generated by the BLISS compiler was horrible.  Most
>>C compilers on x86, Alpha, etc. can generate better code than a human can
>>write assembly by hand.  The situation was the exact opposite on the
>>PDP-10.
>
>I guess I don't remember the code quality.  I do recall keeping tabs
>on the object file size - it jumped up if I forgot a "." in front of a
>variable.  One problem - BLISS wanted to pass arguments on the stack.
>Assembler programmers use registers and on the -10 use certain
>registers for pointers to things that needed to be passed to many
>routines within a module, so the argument passing cost for them was
>zero.
>
>Last summer I rewrote Tru64 Unix's IP checksum routine (it's all 
assembler).
>When I was done, I translated the assembler into C and tried that.  For
>the first time in 30 years, a compiler beat my assembler code.  Somewhat
>mortified, I looked at the generated code and found the C compiler was
>keep different intermediate data that allowed it more latitude scheduling
>instructions.  Rewrote my code to do that and finally came up with faster
>code thanks to earlier memory fetches than the C compiler thought was 
safe.
>
>I don't know if my code would have been faster if I started from scratch,
>but boy, I sure can't recommend writing Alpha assembler unless you have
>good evidence the C code is slow.
>
JMF would recommend assembler.  He had a hell of a time trying
to program around C bugs that couldn't [actually wouldn't] be
fixed in his implementation time frame.  One of the unsung
advantages of developing base software with assembler, and _not_
with a compiler currently under development, is that one ends
up working with an unchanging base.  It's hard enough to 
schedule OS developement without having to depend on a 
language development schedule.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5330 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:07:11 -0700
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> JMF would recommend assembler.  He had a hell of a time trying
> to program around C bugs that couldn't [actually wouldn't] be
> fixed in his implementation time frame.  One of the unsung
> advantages of developing base software with assembler, and _not_
> with a compiler currently under development, is that one ends
> up working with an unchanging base.  It's hard enough to 
> schedule OS developement without having to depend on a 
> language development schedule.

Particularly if you're using a DEC C compiler!!

I've encountered many C compilers which do bizarre things.  I got into the
habit of aggressive prototyping as a result of compilers which will
misframe arguments without precise type-matching.  Nevertheless, even if
bizarre it was still valid compiler behavior.

The only C compilers that I've caught generating bad (as in provably
wrong) code are from DEC, and on multiple occasions.  Some were merely
annoying, such as not allowing addition to the return value from strchr().
But then there were the subtle ones, such the intermittant wrong values of
post-incremented shorts -- it would only do the wrong thing with certain
initial values, not with others.

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State.	*
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.		*
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 5332 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: albaugh@agames.com (Mike Albaugh)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: 24 Jun 1999 20:52:41 GMT
Organization: Atari Games Corporation
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Mark Crispin (mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU) wrote:
: On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
: > JMF would recommend assembler.  He had a hell of a time trying
: > to program around C bugs that couldn't [actually wouldn't] be
: > fixed in his implementation time frame.

: Particularly if you're using a DEC C compiler!!

: I've encountered many C compilers which do bizarre things.  I got into the
: habit of aggressive prototyping as a result of compilers which will
: misframe arguments without precise type-matching.  Nevertheless, even if
: bizarre it was still valid compiler behavior.

: The only C compilers that I've caught generating bad (as in provably
: wrong) code are from DEC, and on multiple occasions.

	You just haven't used enough C compilers; then :-)
GreenHills (Also sold as Oasys and MicroTec) would occasionally
push a short instead of an int, generally when the parameter was
an expression containing only shorts and constant zeros. We had
some _strange_ #defines to avoid the near-occasion of that one.
Later versions had some dubious notions about const parameters.
Alcyon C (for CP/M 68K and Atari TOS) was "almost, but not quite,
completely unlike C" in its treatment of pointers and arrays.
Whatever C compiler 3DO provided for the ARM would regularly
muff expressions involving arrays of short...

	Of course, Vax-11C was an un-remitting nightmare, but
most of the goblins were in the run-time library (which appeared
to be a "shim" between RMS and stdio, written by someone who
understood neither), rather than the compiler proper. Not that
crappy run-time libraries are all that rare. I always wonder why
I should trust an "all singing, all-dancing multi-lingual message
class" from the same bozos who can muff strtoul() and memcmp() :-)

	Ob. Bliss reference: at least two coin-operated video-games
were writen in Bliss. One giant "attaperson" to the one who can
name them... :-)

						Mike
| albaugh@agames.com, speakingonly for myself


Article 5324 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d15
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 09:10:30 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <7kqevg$ehu$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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In article <37706667.3038342@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
   Nobody_Special@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>BLISS was not "not looked upon favorably by Digital".  To the
>contrary, BLISS was THE strategic system implementation language at
>Digital for many years, as other replies have noted.  Compilers,
>operating systems, network software, database systems, you-name-it,
>was implemented in BLISS.  I wrote many thousands of lines of BLISS.
>
>BLISS was never looked upon very favorably in 36-bit-land for a couple
>of reasons.  One is that MACRO was the "true language" of 36-bit
>implementation;  anything done in BLISS was looked at askance by most
>36-bitters.  Another reason is that BLISS was really best targeted to
>architectures with byte-addressability.  As soon as you needed to keep
>36-bit byte-pointers in BLISS, with the funny "@" dereferencing
>syntax, things got ugly fast.  BLISS was, I think, originally
>developed for the -10, but ironically enough it just never worked very
>well there compared to the -11 and the VAX.
>
>Gordon Bell was the Father of the BLISS Strategy at Digital. 
<snip>

Another reason that BLISS was not looked upon favorably by PDP-10ers
is that an edict came down that declared all subsequent developement
and _patches_ to the TOPS10 monitor (I don't know about TOPS20) had
to be done with BLISS.  First of all, one didn't tell the TOPS10
developers how to program; second of all, I still have no idea
how one applies a bliss patch to an EXE with DDT....but that's 
what the suits' specification outlined.  The term "a horse
designed by jackasses producing a camel" comes to mind. 

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5337 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 99 09:15:24 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <7kvo1b$l5q$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <37706667.3038342@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <Pine.NXT.4.20.9906222324400.20271-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> <QCgc3.2767$Wr1.95137@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <7kt3mj$p6p$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <Pine.NXT.4.20.9906241055470.22648-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
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In article 
<Pine.NXT.4.20.9906241055470.22648-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> JMF would recommend assembler.  He had a hell of a time trying
>> to program around C bugs that couldn't [actually wouldn't] be
>> fixed in his implementation time frame.  One of the unsung
>> advantages of developing base software with assembler, and _not_
>> with a compiler currently under development, is that one ends
>> up working with an unchanging base.  It's hard enough to 
>> schedule OS developement without having to depend on a 
>> language development schedule.
>
>Particularly if you're using a DEC C compiler!!
<snip>

Well, Jim had another disadvantage.  He was known as one
of _those_ TOPS10 guys.  He never did figure out how to
get through the snobbery of VAX/VMS folklore.

He did explain the bug and workaround to me, but I was pretty
sick then and don't remember the details at all.  I'm not
even sure exactly what Alpha work he did.  All I have is
a plaque that had been presented to him for his contribution.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5338 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Goodies in the PRM...
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:38:37 -0400
Organization: Sonoma Systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <7l94j5$7nm$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9906010905160.4092-100000@bony.umtec.com>
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I did something like this in 1972 on the KA-10 at Stevens. We built a device
called an MK-10. The design was done by Allen Kent, I think. Bob Clements
wrote the Music Player and I am not sure who wrote the compiler. We wrote
dozens of songs. The player just twiddled the low order few bits of AC0 and
the MK10 was connected to the LED drivers on the console. We could program 4
or 6 voices (one for each bit). The device had a pot for each voice so that
we could adjust them independently. We fed it into a stereo.

----------------------------------------------------
Larry Samberg       larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com
Sonoma Systems, Inc.           Marlborough, MA 01752
Phone: 508-481-2215 x342           Fax: 508-861-0261


----------
In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.9906010905160.4092-100000@bony.umtec.com>, Daniel
Seagraves <root@bony.umtec.com> wrote:


>
> Some stuff from the PRM - This is at Page 5-15, KI10 and KA10 System
> Operations:
>
>  "The margin value specified by bits 30-35 of the output word
>  is translated to a voltage in the range 0-10 volts by a D-A
>  converter, whose output is available at pin 2S0V2.  Running
>  margins requires a slowdown capacitor in the converter. But
>  turning off the margin enable switch cuts out the capacitor,
>  making the converter output suitable for external use, such
>  as operating audio equipment to play Bach or rock or Bacharach."
>
> How nice.  Music from your KI.  Did anyone ever do this?
> (Better still, since it's in the manual, was this supported?
>  Oh, and what's Bacharach?)
>
> Another one, from page F-2, on cleaning your KA:
>
>  "It is alright to use spray cleaner on exposed vertical
>  surfaces, but do not use it around switches, near intake
>  gratings, or near any other openings, because the "guck"
>  can cause severe problems if it gets inside the equipment.
>  The "alright" in this caution applies to the sheetmetal.
>  Whether the carcinogens that come out of aresol cans are
>  alright for your lungs is up to you to decide.  It has never
>  been shown that the presence or absence of fingermarks
>  or other stains has any effect whatsoever on the operation
>  of the system. And anyway, it's probably much healthier to
>  get a little exercise using an ordinary cleaner."
>
> This one's gonna get posted by our servers.  ^_^
> Who let this stuff get printed, anyway?  I thought the management
> types were supposed to remove all the humorous/useful stuff.
>
> Daniel Seagraves | I'm an International Clandestine Arms Dealer!
> "In the name of the moon, will you punish me?" - SMS #104
> "There is nothing more dangerous than a resourceful idiot." - Dilbert
> SailorMoon Into Eternity! | Usagi's Stormtroopers Local #42 | 36 BITS 4EVER!
> 


Article 5340 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!uunet!lax.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!world!mbg
From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: Goodies in the PRM...
Message-ID: <FE2Loo.Fzt@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:58:00 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9906010905160.4092-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7l94j5$7nm$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 45
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"Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com> writes:

>I did something like this in 1972 on the KA-10 at Stevens. We built a device
>called an MK-10. The design was done by Allen Kent, I think. Bob Clements
>wrote the Music Player and I am not sure who wrote the compiler. We wrote
>dozens of songs. The player just twiddled the low order few bits of AC0 and
>the MK10 was connected to the LED drivers on the console. We could program 4
>or 6 voices (one for each bit). The device had a pot for each voice so that
>we could adjust them independently. We fed it into a stereo.

I remember reading about the MK10.  Back around 1984 or so, a couple
of friends and I also got some of the old music files (I think I still
have them) and a music player...

At the time, I had a pdp-11/10.  The TI Sound Generation Controller
had just come out, and I built a simple circuit to allow the -11/10
to drive it using a DR11C parallel interface.  I tubbed it the MK11-A
as a tip-o-the-hat to the MK10...

A friend of mine saw what I had done and developed something with a
little more guts (as well as probably being more correct as a design
than mine) which allowed control of three SGCs... A couple of us
built them to this design (which we dubbed the MK11-B) and another
friend wrote a series of programs for RT-11 -- one which compiled the
old music files, one which built patch libraries (for MIDI devices)
and a player.

Having some experience in reading music, I entered a number of other
songs which I then shared... One was Scott Joplin's 'Crush Collision Rag'.

I'm pretty sure I could find at least the old song files.  I think I
may still have some documentation for the song compiler input format.

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



Article 5343 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Goodies in the PRM...
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:12:35 -0400
Organization: Sonoma Systems
Lines: 38
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I beg your pardon Barb, but Chuck and I spent hundreds of hours with 
standalone time debugging Galaxy. We had to stop at 3AM when Jim and Tony
came in and took over the machines....   :)

----------------------------------------------------
Larry Samberg       larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com
Sonoma Systems, Inc.           Marlborough, MA 01752
Phone: 508-481-2215 x342           Fax: 508-861-0261


----------
In article <7la9bm$r3i$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


> In article <7l94j5$7nm$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
>    "Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com> wrote:
>
>>I did something like this in 1972 on the KA-10 at Stevens. We built a
> device
>>called an MK-10. The design was done by Allen Kent, I think. Bob Clements
>>wrote the Music Player and I am not sure who wrote the compiler. We wrote
>>dozens of songs. The player just twiddled the low order few bits of AC0
> and
>>the MK10 was connected to the LED drivers on the console. We could program
> 4
>>or 6 voices (one for each bit). The device had a pot for each voice so
> that
>>we could adjust them independently. We fed it into a stereo.
>
> <snip>
>
> Is that what Sandy Libman ran on the KI when he was supposed
> to be running his scripts?  Hmmm...now that I think of it,
> you probably wouldn't know since you were a daytime person :-).
>
> /BAH
>
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Goodies in the PRM...
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 99 10:55:05 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <7ld3q1$1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9906010905160.4092-100000@bony.umtec.com>
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In article <7lc5fp$8ea$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
   "Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com> wrote:

>I beg your pardon Barb, but Chuck and I spent hundreds of hours with 
>standalone time debugging Galaxy. We had to stop at 3AM when Jim and Tony
>came in and took over the machines....   :)

Ah, yes.  I'd forgotten about that; I was still sorta owned by
Maynard then and didn't get to watch the creation of the Galaxy.

I remember when Tony would come in at 3AM.  He used to really piss
me off because he would kick everybody off _all_ the machines.
I would come back an hour later to see what he was doing on the
machine I was using, and it would be just dead. grrrrr...
He was a person whose bite was worse than his bark until he
got his coffee infusion. :-) 

>
>----------------------------------------------------
>Larry Samberg       larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com
>Sonoma Systems, Inc.           Marlborough, MA 01752
>Phone: 508-481-2215 x342           Fax: 508-861-0261
>
>
>----------
>In article <7la9bm$r3i$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>> In article <7l94j5$7nm$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
>>    "Larry S. Samberg" <larry-samberg@sonoma-systems.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I did something like this in 1972 on the KA-10 at Stevens. We built a
>> device
>>>called an MK-10. The design was done by Allen Kent, I think. Bob 
Clements
>>>wrote the Music Player and I am not sure who wrote the compiler. We 
wrote
>>>dozens of songs. The player just twiddled the low order few bits of AC0
>> and
>>>the MK10 was connected to the LED drivers on the console. We could 
program
>> 4
>>>or 6 voices (one for each bit). The device had a pot for each voice so
>> that
>>>we could adjust them independently. We fed it into a stereo.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Is that what Sandy Libman ran on the KI when he was supposed
>> to be running his scripts?  Hmmm...now that I think of it,
>> you probably wouldn't know since you were a daytime person :-).
>>
>> /BAH
>>
>> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5352 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Goodies in the PRM...
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:43:19 -0400
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <377AD5C7.4E50CE58@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9906010905160.4092-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7l94j5$7nm$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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"Larry S. Samberg" wrote:
> 
> I did something like this in 1972 on the KA-10 at Stevens. We built a device
> called an MK-10.  ...

"Music Kludge-10".  A friend dumped all available music to an audio cassette
shortly before KA-101 went away.  I don't know what's become of the tape.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


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From: "Nick Bush" <Bush@A.C.M.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9906010905160.4092-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7l94j5$7nm$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <377AD5C7.4E50CE58@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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I still have the reel tape we made that night.

For those that don't realize, the MK-10 only really worked well when the
program could basically have the whole CPU, so it was not something to run
during normal timesharing service.

- NB

Alan H. Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote in message
news:377AD5C7.4E50CE58@MA.UltraNet.Com...
> "Larry S. Samberg" wrote:
> >
> > I did something like this in 1972 on the KA-10 at Stevens. We built a
device
> > called an MK-10.  ...
>
> "Music Kludge-10".  A friend dumped all available music to an audio
cassette
> shortly before KA-101 went away.  I don't know what's become of the tape.
> /AHM
> --
> Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com




Article 5356 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu
Organization: University of Michigan
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
From: sarr@stick.us.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson)
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <PtMe3.1014$ce5.19829@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:14:39 GMT
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In article <Pine.NXT.4.20.9906301223560.29451-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:
>
>I spent 15 years programming PDP-10 assembly language, and a subsequent 11
>years programming in C.  I would not think of writing in assembly language
>on an Alpha, Pentium, etc.  On the other hand, to this day, I can still
>write a PDP-10 program better in assembly language than in C.

Having ported Ingres (the version that came with BSD 4.1 [?], not the
commercial version) to TOPS-10, the one thing that really bit me was that
there was no good choice for representing (char *) on the 10.  The compiler
I was using stored them as a byte count from 0, which made pointer arithmetic
easy but made dereferencing a pointer, or casting it to a non char pointer,
expensive.  Storing them as byte pointers would have done the opposite.

Of course this was aggravated by the tendency of the original Ingres crew to
declare _all_ pointers as char *.

-- 
--------
Sarr Blumson                    sarr@umich.edu
voice: +1 734 764 0253          home: +1 734 665 9591
ITD, University of Michigan     http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/


Article 5350 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: 1 Jul 1999 01:37:26 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
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Stephen H. Westin (westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu) wrote:

I did a fair amount of BLISS-10 code (mainly for recreational purposes) as
well as lots of MACRO-10. At the time the learning curve of BLISS was quite
high (in terms of getting the compiler to generate the code that I wanted
rather than its view) but in the end I was reasonably happy with the
two larger projects I wrote - a user mode version of SYSDPY and a translation
of a BCPL program used to produce cross reference listings of BCPL programs.
The reason for the second program was a project to compare "systems 
programming" languages on the DECsystem-10.

: Anyway, it seems that C succeeded in a big way where BLISS failed. I
: can think of a couple of reasons for that, like the proprietary
: single-vendor nature of BLISS, and that it has largely succeeded on
: 16/32/64-bit byte oriented machines that probably ease the porting
: load.

Anyone who has tried to port c programs from either 16bit systems to 32bits
or 32bits to 64bits will find that many programmers make assumptions about
the size of pointers and integers that aren't true....
--
 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer to be played
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | in the air, the sky would be green" 


Article 5385 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: pfarrell@netcom.com (Pat Farrell)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:43:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <7lui3e$123@dfw-ixnews21.ix.netcom.com>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>Sometimes I wonder if I was the only person who started a 
>>project in Bliss-36 and was happy.
>Probably :-) none of my guys were happy.  What kind of project was it?

We actually did two.

First, we wrote a DBMS package.
Specifically because System 1022 had a hard stop limit of 18-bits of
records per database. We needed more than that, and we ended up
writing our own. Ended up with 700,000 records filling an RP07.
Wow, that was huge back then.

The second was a client/server application that used DEC-Pro350
(PDP-11) "personal computers" as intellegent programmable terminals
for our KLs. We also had a version that used a Vaxen or multi-user
PDP-11 as an intellegent concentrator for Vt100s. This was 
before "decnet phase 3" made interoperability and/or 
internetworking between DEC product lines feasible :-)

>I more curious about the level of the software, i.e., OS
>level, user mode level, application level, etc. rather than
>the specs of the project.

Gee, That was along time ago, so the specifics are fuzzy.
We were a Tops-20 source site, running the "current" monitors.
We jumped on whatever Tops-20 first had user mode extended
addressing. The hardware were six KL, all of which
ended up as B models, usually 2060s or 2065s.

The code was used as tools for applications, most of which
were written in Cobol with System 1022 as the datastore.

I'm not sure what else you're currious about. Let me know,
and if I remember...

>One of the problems of any flavor of the blisses on the -10
>is that a build almost required a stand-alone -10 that
>didn't crash for 12 hours (that was not our environment).

Funny, We didn't see this problem. Of course, we weren't building
a monitor. But we constantly used the usual edit/compile/debug cycle,
and it was effective for Bliss-36. 

For the crossported stuff, where we had to run Bliss-16 on the KL,
the download and TKB crud from PDP-11 land added tons of time
to the cycle. But I think the inept PDP-11 debugging tools cost
as much as the compilers themselves.

I'm not claiming Bliss-36 was as fast as Macro-20, but it was not
a problem for us.

We didn't run our KLs are grossly overloaded as education sites.
We had users paying for the machines, and they complained about
performance when we had 50 or so users simultaneously.

Pat

Pat Farrell                           pfarrell@netcom.com
PGP key on the usual servers



Article 5387 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d14
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Music of the -10s (and other systems)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 11:52:52 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <7lvls0$ea8$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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In article <cLIf3.2173$el4.87667@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <7lkpme$n03$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>>BTW, does there still exist anywhere the text of KO's (in)famous Teddy 
>>Bear 
>>>memo?
>>>
>>Now that tiggles a bit of my memory, but, for the life of me, I
>>can't remember what that was.  Please put this person out
>>of misery and explain, John :-).
>
>Back in the early/mid '60s, there was a Teddy Bear prominently featured in 
>the DEC booth at every trade show. I guess it was to symbolize the "cute 
and 
>fuzzy" nature of DEC as opposed to Big Blue and the seven dwarves. After 
one 
>such show, KO wrote an evaluation of the booth. He was particularly 
critical 
>of the appearance of the bear, and wanted to make sure that someone took 
>responsibility for brushing his fur and making sure his bow-tie (which I 
>seem to recall was plaid) was freshly pressed before each show. Soon 
>thereafter the bear disappeared into the annals of DEC history. 
>

Thanks.  Jim was always chuckling about the bronzed tennis
shoes that [now I can't remember the guy's name] had in his
office.  I think he was a product manager around the time
you showed up smelling of smoke and looking very, very, very
tired.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5409 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:51:36 -0400
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <37875DF8.E1AC8E3F@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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"Richard M. Alderson III" wrote:

> ...  Bliss-36 cost *lots* of money when it came out as a product; ...

$13,800.00, as I recall.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5407 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:45:23 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
>    "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com> wrote:
...
> >KL1026 was the TOPS-10 development system and it had about
> >one oddball device of everything on it,
> >whole bunches of all kinds of disks, including a big box of
> >Ampex memory and two strings of TU70/72/73s.
> 
> We had to have all those oddball devices because we supported
> them.  If we supported a piece of hardware, it was a requirement
> that we be able to test the software and use them for debugging.
> As a matter of fact, we had to keep a 7-track tape drive on
> the end of one of those TU70 strings because there was still
> a customer who ordered 7-track tapes.  (It would have been
> cheaper just to give them a 9-track but managers didn't seem
> to know how to count back then.)  ...

The 1978 contract for one KL that replaced a KA stipulated that a bunch of the
KA's peripherals would be supported for 5 years.

Then 7-track desupport was announced at DECUS.

Then DEC was reminded of the site's 7-track.

I suspect that something like a modern 9-track was supplied in exchange.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5424 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d1
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: SA10 front panel)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 09:40:30 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <7mck1c$k1p$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <p98mccabe-2905990857350001@r-185.197.alltel.net> <7ioqkn$l3v$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7iq0aa$di0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net><7ir9fp$hbc$5@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37875CD4.15305153@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <37875CD4.15305153@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> Oh, yeah.  One of the things that JMF threw in (since they were
>> going to touch just about everything anyway) was to get rid
>> of all those "pseudo-supported" feature test switches and the
>> really, really, really ancient hardware support.
>
>It just wasn't the same without FTDISK and FTLOGIN.

Chuckle.  I remember Jim and Tony doing quite a bit of
head scratching trying to imagine a customer situation
where those were still useful.  Once they got over the hump
of eliminating those (I suspect TW remembered needing them),
the rest was pretty easy.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5430 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.voicenet.com!news3.voicenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Nick Bush" <Bush@A.C.M.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <qh90ahfuo8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <FC9uux.Hzo@world.std.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Lines: 42
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.71.88.147
X-Trace: news3.voicenet.com 931831037 209.71.88.147 (Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:57:17 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:57:17 EDT
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5430

No, that old 7-track TU10 (IIRC) was supported for 5 years.  After all, it
would have been quite hard to read the old 7-track tapes people had laying
around on a 9-track drive.  Someone even dug up a few cans of KL blue spray
paint to make the door on the controller rack match the new equipment.

NB

Alan H. Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote in message
news:37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com...
> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
> >    "Gregory A. Scott" <gscott@scott.com> wrote:
> ...
> > >KL1026 was the TOPS-10 development system and it had about
> > >one oddball device of everything on it,
> > >whole bunches of all kinds of disks, including a big box of
> > >Ampex memory and two strings of TU70/72/73s.
> >
> > We had to have all those oddball devices because we supported
> > them.  If we supported a piece of hardware, it was a requirement
> > that we be able to test the software and use them for debugging.
> > As a matter of fact, we had to keep a 7-track tape drive on
> > the end of one of those TU70 strings because there was still
> > a customer who ordered 7-track tapes.  (It would have been
> > cheaper just to give them a 9-track but managers didn't seem
> > to know how to count back then.)  ...
>
> The 1978 contract for one KL that replaced a KA stipulated that a bunch of
the
> KA's peripherals would be supported for 5 years.
>
> Then 7-track desupport was announced at DECUS.
>
> Then DEC was reminded of the site's 7-track.
>
> I suspect that something like a modern 9-track was supplied in exchange.
> /AHM
> --
> Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com




Article 5433 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: SA10 front panel)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:57:24 -0400
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <378AAB14.CF3F6D67@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <p98mccabe-2905990857350001@r-185.197.alltel.net> <7ioqkn$l3v$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7iq0aa$di0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net><7ir9fp$hbc$5@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37875CD4.15305153@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mck1c$k1p$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <37875CD4.15305153@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Oh, yeah.  One of the things that JMF threw in (since they were
> >> going to touch just about everything anyway) was to get rid
> >> of all those "pseudo-supported" feature test switches and the
> >> really, really, really ancient hardware support.
> >
> >It just wasn't the same without FTDISK and FTLOGIN.
> 
> Chuckle.  I remember Jim and Tony doing quite a bit of
> head scratching trying to imagine a customer situation
> where those were still useful.  Once they got over the hump
> of eliminating those (I suspect TW remembered needing them),
> the rest was pretty easy.

I wish we'd desupported non-random-access .REL input to LINK to get
relocatable psects.  Setting psect origins by hand because we couldn't read
the .REL twice was ridiculous.  I think desupporting overlays would have made
LINK a lot simpler, too.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5436 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!sarr
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Desupporting (was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: SA10 front panel))
References: <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <37875CD4.15305153@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mck1c$k1p$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <378AAB14.CF3F6D67@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu
Organization: University of Michigan
From: sarr@stick.us.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson)
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3EKi3.242$nB.33061@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:25:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.211.165.85
X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 931886719 141.211.165.85 (Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:19 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:19 EDT
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In article <378AAB14.CF3F6D67@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
Alan H. Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>
>I wish we'd desupported non-random-access .REL input to LINK to get
>relocatable psects.  Setting psect origins by hand because we couldn't read
>the .REL twice was ridiculous.  I think desupporting overlays would have made
>LINK a lot simpler, too.

But customers (ie ADP) continued to charge running programs by memory size
long after it stopped making any sense, so people _used_ overlays all over the
place. Killing actual performance, of course.

-- 
--------
Sarr Blumson                    sarr@umich.edu
voice: +1 734 764 0253          home: +1 734 665 9591
ITD, University of Michigan     http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/


Article 5446 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d6
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 09:51:51 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <12xi3.381$x4.47995@news3.voicenet.com> <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5446

In article <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com>,
   inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
>In article <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>Alan H. Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>>Nick Bush wrote:
>>> 
>>> No, that old 7-track TU10 (IIRC) was supported for 5 years.  After all, 
it
>>> would have been quite hard to read the old 7-track tapes people had 
laying
>>> around on a 9-track drive.  ...
>>
>>Agreed; I just couldn't picture the TU10 in the KL room.
>
>The Colorado School of Mines had a TU70, TU71 and three TU72s in the KL
>room.  The 7-track drive and the low-density (200/556/800 bpi) 9-track
>drive were there to read all the old stuff.  Our TU10 and TU20 went
>when the KA went.

Chuckle.  I don't know anybody who wouldn't have dumped a
TU10 and TU20 for TU7x.  As much as I hated magtape, TU7x
were the best in the business.

If there is anybody nostalgic for TU10s, I'd really like
to know about them so I can study them as a very strange 
animal :-).

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5444 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d6
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 09:45:55 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <7mht44$ns2$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <7kh5pj$fe0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <7kigdi$49t$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37890629.71FB82A6@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mcjpe$k1p$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <378AA69B.D8772FC0@MA.UltraNet.Com>
X-Trace: Q2HLqKPxNlJpN8SzF2YtRO8p+ffOPaZIVCjdDKRo7d8=
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1999 11:43:00 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5444

In article <378AA69B.D8772FC0@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <37890629.71FB82A6@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <7kh5pj$fe0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >>    bugs@freebsd.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
>> >....
>> >> >Bliss-11 may have been Decus, but a source license
>> >> >for Bliss-32 was probably a lot harder to get :-).  Bliss-10 came 
with
>> >> >source code in the tradition of 10-ness and was not Decus.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think we shipped the sources.   I'd have to look at the
>> >> SPDs to verify this.  But I don't think there was an SPD for
>> >> BLISS-10, hence the customer couldn't "order" it.
>> >
>> >BLISS-10 sources were definitely available to the field, although it
>> probably
>> >was only supported for building supported products written in BLISS-10.
>> 
>> Alan, think.  One didn't need BLISS-10 sources in order to build
>> products written in BLISS-10.
>
>0.  I entered a couple of dozen DCE edits to Fortran-10 from the Software
>Dispatch while I was in the field.

DCE?  What's that?  Patches to Fortran-10 are not patches to
Bliss.

>
>1.  BLISS-10 sources were definitely available to the field.

I don't remember Magee ever making a Bliss source tape or a 
build of Bliss.  If it got to customers, it wasn't through
the usual channels.
>
>2.  BLISS-10 was probably only supported to build supported products 
written
>in BLISS-10.

Right.  How about shortening your right margin?

>  (Just like PA1050 would only accept bugs encountered while
>running supported compatibility mode cusps).  

>However by 1981, BLISS-10 bugs
>would probably have been dumped in the Fortran group's lap, 

Nope.  There was an official Bliss maintainer but he worked
closely with the Fortran group.

>and we would have
>just issued a permanent restriction w/workaround.  It was a non-goal to 
touch
>a hair on BLISS-10's head.

That's because it was impossible to do a field test and distribution.
Another indicator that the sources were not available.  TW didn't
make that monitor edit so that Bliss could still do illegal things
for nothing.
>
>I once met the last BLISS-10 maintainer, but I can't remember his name...

What do mean once met.  He was at the Fortran meetings quite often.
Eric Magrath.

>
>
>> >  I
>> >can't remember if the BLISS-10 sources initially shipped just with
>> FORTRAN-10
>> >or what.
>> 
>> The _Bliss_ sources weren't shipped on the tape; just the *.EXEs
>> and (I can't remember this) I suspect LIBs, etc.  ...
>
>Quite plausible.  I don't remember how the BLISS-10 sources were available 
to
>the field.

It was probably under the table.

>
>
>>... The Fortran
>> tape was a mess since it also insisted on shipping RELs, UNVs and
>> EXEs that belonged on the CUSP tape.  One of my knockdowns with
>> Sara was to get that stuff off all the language tapes so that
>> there would no longer be any version skews of supported products.
>
>Might have been before my time.

Yup.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5449 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!sniff.shr.dec.com!chuck.enet.dec.com!otoole
From: otoole@chuck.enet.dec.com (Chuck O'Toole)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: 14 Jul 1999 13:43:46 GMT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation, Shrewsbury MA.
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7mi46i$b2e$1@sniff.shr.dec.com>
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <7kh5pj$fe0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <7kigdi$49t$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37890629.71FB82A6@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mcjpe$k1p$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <378AA69B.D8772FC0@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <378AA69B.D8772FC0@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin"
<AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:

  [snip...]

|>2.  BLISS-10 was probably only supported to build supported products
|>written
|>in BLISS-10.  (Just like PA1050 would only accept bugs encountered while
|>running supported compatibility mode cusps).  However by 1981, BLISS-10
|>bugs
|>would probably have been dumped in the Fortran group's lap, and we would
|>have
|>just issued a permanent restriction w/workaround.  It was a non-goal to
|>touch
|>a hair on BLISS-10's head.
|>
  [snip...]

"the horror...the horror..."  [Brando]

Ah, Bliss-10.  In late '75 I inherited MCS-10 (Message Control System
- DEC's answer to transaction processing at the time).  The majority
of the messaging logic was written in Bliss-10, about a 4 inch thick
listing on old 132 column fan fold printer paper.

After I finally got it to work (and ship!), with JMF's help of course,
a new version of Bliss-10 came out and when I compiled MCS with it, MCS
completely stopped working.  Some construct I was using stopped generating
the proper code.  Rather than re-qualify and test that much Bliss code, I
simply started shipping the older Bliss .EXE on the MCS tape.  Ruffled a
few feathers but it was the only way I was ever going to get off the MCS
project, I didn't want that to become my life's work.

That was my only encounter with Bliss, ever.  Scarred me for life.  I stuck
with assembly (-10, -11, VAX) until the mid 80's when I had to learn Pascal
(don't ask)
-- 

/cdo
-----
Disclaimer:  The opinions expressed are my own and
do not necessarily represent those of my employer,
loved ones, or passing acquaintances.


Article 5450 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail
From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: SA10 front panel)
Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:55:16 -0700
Organization: Chez Inwap
Message-ID: <7mj104$7f$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7iq0aa$di0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ir9fp$hbc$ <qhwvw4ay0t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com
X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 931989323 219 inwap@206.184.139.134
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5450

In article <qhwvw4ay0t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Eric Smith  <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>"Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:
>> It just wasn't the same without FTDISK and FTLOGIN.
>
>What did those do?

If you defined FTLOGIN=0 and rebuilt the monitor, it eliminated the LOGIN
process.  You could simply walk up to any teletype, type Control-C, and
start working.

If you defined FTDISK=0 and rebuilt the monitor, it eliminated all the
disk drivers, making the monitor very very small.  In this case, you would
assign one of the DECtape drives as SYS: and run programs from DECtape.
(There was code in the monitor to test "is SYS: rewinding?" since nothing
else could be done until the DECtape I/O was complete.)
	-Joe

-- 
INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock.
  (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.)
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"



The TU7x series were the best tape drives I ever worked with.  Enormously
better then the TU10's and TU20's. We had so much trouble with the TU20's on
the KA, that one of our standard practices upon receiving release tapes from
DEC was to make a copy before doing anything else.  More than once the TU20
would "eat" a tape on a rewind.

When we had our first VAX arrive with a TU45, we felt almost like we were
back in the bad old days of the TU20s.   And apparently lots of other -10
and -20 sites must have complained to DEC about the lack of good tape drives
for VMS, since we got a contract from DEC to develop the device driver for
the TU7x's for VMS - we had the first set of TU7x drives dual ported between
a DECsystem-10 (via a DX10) and a VAX (via a DX20).

- NB
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net...
> In article <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com>,
>    inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
> >In article <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
> >Alan H. Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >>Nick Bush wrote:
> >>>
> >>> No, that old 7-track TU10 (IIRC) was supported for 5 years.  After
all,
> it
> >>> would have been quite hard to read the old 7-track tapes people had
> laying
> >>> around on a 9-track drive.  ...
> >>
> >>Agreed; I just couldn't picture the TU10 in the KL room.
> >
> >The Colorado School of Mines had a TU70, TU71 and three TU72s in the KL
> >room.  The 7-track drive and the low-density (200/556/800 bpi) 9-track
> >drive were there to read all the old stuff.  Our TU10 and TU20 went
> >when the KA went.
>
> Chuckle.  I don't know anybody who wouldn't have dumped a
> TU10 and TU20 for TU7x.  As much as I hated magtape, TU7x
> were the best in the business.
>
> If there is anybody nostalgic for TU10s, I'd really like
> to know about them so I can study them as a very strange
> animal :-).
>
> /BAH
>
>
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.




Article 5464 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 08:42:05 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 33
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In article <7mketi$82j$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>In article <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com>,
>   "Nick Bush" <Bush@A.C.M.org> wrote:
>>The TU7x series were the best tape drives I ever worked with.  Enormously
>>better then the TU10's and TU20's. We had so much trouble with the TU20's 
>on
>>the KA, that one of our standard practices upon receiving release tapes 
>from
>>DEC was to make a copy before doing anything else.  More than once the 
>TU20
>>would "eat" a tape on a rewind.
>>
>>When we had our first VAX arrive with a TU45, we felt almost like we were
>>back in the bad old days of the TU20s.   And apparently lots of other -10
>>and -20 sites must have complained to DEC about the lack of good tape 
>drives
>>for VMS, since we got a contract from DEC to develop the device driver 
for
>>the TU7x's for VMS - we had the first set of TU7x drives dual ported 
>between
>>a DECsystem-10 (via a DX10) and a VAX (via a DX20).
><snip>
>
>And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the heart of why DEC failed.

It occurred to me yesterday that this comment could have been
misunderstood.  It was not a commentary on Mr. Bush's ability
to do the work.  It was a commentary of DEC not using its own
experienced personnel.  My apologies, Nick.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5470 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail
From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
Date: 17 Jul 1999 20:54:31 -0700
Organization: Chez Inwap
Message-ID: <7mrj5n$hrj$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com>
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In article <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com>,
Nick Bush <Bush@A.C.M.org> wrote:
>The TU7x series were the best tape drives I ever worked with.

Thanks to Storage Technology Corporation in Louisville, Colorado.
They made the best IBM-compatible tape drives around.  Very popular
at sites with IBM System/370 and compatible processors

DEC was smart enough to rebrand these tape drives with the Digital logo
and add a working MASSbus to bus-and-tag adapter.
	-Joe
-- 
INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock.
  (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.)
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"


Article 5465 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Mark H. Wood" <mhwood@haystack.Bogusnet.IN.US>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:53:27 GMT
Organization: La Petite Hackerie
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <FF0p93.EzJ@Ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <12xi3.381$x4.47995@news3.voicenet.com> <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> Chuckle.  I don't know anybody who wouldn't have dumped a
> TU10 and TU20 for TU7x.  As much as I hated magtape, TU7x
> were the best in the business.

I was our resident tape zealot at IUPUI (wherever that is), and while
I thought the TU78 was a great leap forward from what we had before*,
those IBM 3420 drives just a few steps away were the best transports I
ever saw -- they *never* failed to load, they *never* lost vacuum,
they ran like the wind, and the data were handled quite reliably too.
While using the TU78s I learned a lot of operational tricks you'll
never find in any manual, just to get the work done.

-----------------
* TU45, I think
-- 
-- 
Mark H. Wood, radical centrist     OpenPGP ID 876A8B75     mhwood@ameritech.net
Why do we always draw organization charts upside down?


Article 5469 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.voicenet.com!news2.voicenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Nick Bush" <Bush@A.C.M.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <12xi3.381$x4.47995@news3.voicenet.com> <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <FF0p93.EzJ@Ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...)
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For TU7x, you need to read TU70/71/72, NOT TU77 or TU78.  TU70/71/72 were
actually completely IBM compatible tape drives made by Storage Tech.  The
controller connected to IBM Tag&Bus cables.  DEC built a data
channel/controller called a DX10 (and later a DX20) which interfaced to the
STC controller via Tag&Bus on one side and DEC busses on the other:  the
DX10 connected to the -10's IO & Memory busses; the DX20 was a Massbus
connection.

The TU70/71/72 drives were high-quality, high-duty cycle tape drives that
worked better than any other tape drives DEC ever sold.

- NB

Mark H. Wood <mhwood@haystack.Bogusnet.IN.US> wrote in message
news:FF0p93.EzJ@Ameritech.net...
> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> > Chuckle.  I don't know anybody who wouldn't have dumped a
> > TU10 and TU20 for TU7x.  As much as I hated magtape, TU7x
> > were the best in the business.
>
> I was our resident tape zealot at IUPUI (wherever that is), and while
> I thought the TU78 was a great leap forward from what we had before*,
> those IBM 3420 drives just a few steps away were the best transports I
> ever saw -- they *never* failed to load, they *never* lost vacuum,
> they ran like the wind, and the data were handled quite reliably too.
> While using the TU78s I learned a lot of operational tricks you'll
> never find in any manual, just to get the work done.
>
> -----------------
> * TU45, I think
> --
> --
> Mark H. Wood, radical centrist     OpenPGP ID 876A8B75
mhwood@ameritech.net
> Why do we always draw organization charts upside down?




Article 5453 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: SA10 front panel)
References: <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com>
     <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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From: werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme)
Lines: 45
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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:05:47 GMT
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5453

jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>In article <qhwvw4ay0t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
>   Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>>"Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:
>>> It just wasn't the same without FTDISK and FTLOGIN.
>>
>>What did those do?

>Once upon a time, in the olden days, a big system had 48K 
>of core.  Some data bases were larger.  One could build
>a monitor that was so small that one could use DECtape
>instead of disk and didn't reserve job slots, taking up
>valuable words of memory.

I got my start on DEC and PDP-10s at Carnegie-Mellon on a 4N50 system.
(That was before the name DECsystem10 or whatever came about.)  Five
DECtapes, 48 Kw of flaky core.  It supported two people quite well.
One sys tape, each user used two DECtapes, alternately as input and output.
Of course, with your source file moving back and forth between the two
tapes, you had to keep it's last location in mind!

I was hired as an operator in 1969 (I had just started my sophomore year).
I remember being intrigued that _one_ program sometimes started without
having to read the SYS tape - TECO.  It had a HISEG file but no LOSEG, and
if the hiseg was still in core, it started immediately.  Pretty impressive!

I had spent some time on the IBM 360/67 using both OS/360 and TSS/360.
One nice thing about the -10 was the lack of frivolous user accessible
configuration stuff.  If you were using the machine, you had to be
doing something useful.  On TSS you could tweak your keyboard map and
do lotsa other stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with productivity.
Sort of like setting Windows' background and screen saver today.

And there's even a BLISS link - compiling BLISS took all 39 K of memory
that was available, so we had to logout everyone.  I broke the build one
day by innocently doing a SYSTAT, forgetting that left me logged in with
SYSTAT's core image still around.

Eventually we got some RM10B (Bryant drums), more memory, RP02 disks,
etc.
--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5461 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: 18-bit support on HSCxx?
Date: 16 Jul 1999 00:15:00 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Jul15171501@netcom16.netcom.com>
References: <qhn1wx67oq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com
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NNTP-Posting-User: alderson
In-reply-to: Eric Smith's message of 15 Jul 1999 12:20:53 -0700
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5461

In article <qhn1wx67oq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
<eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:

>Do any of the HSCxx boxes newer than the HSC50 support 18-bit mode
>(576-byte sectors)?

No.  I asked this question when the HSC70 was first announced, and the reply
was a slightly stunned "Why would anyone want that?"

>Do the disk drives attached to the HSC have to have special support for the
>576-byte sectors, or does the HSC handle blocking and deblocking to a more
>common sector size?

The RA81 HDAs were factory-formatted to 576.  No other drives--uh, check that,
no other Winchester-technology drives--were available that way.

>I've got an opportunity to pick up some HSCs and an SC cheap, but I don't want
>them unless there's some possiblity that they can be used on a KL10 system.
>Of course, I'll also have to find a CI20 to make the stuff useful.

Unless they're HSC50's, don't bother for a KL.
--
Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 5463 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Message-ID: <378EC562.63726174@s054.aone.net.au>
From: "Mark@Ace" <gcsnospam@s054.aone.net.au>
Reply-To: gcsnospam@s054.aone.net.au
Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
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X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 932103405 203.12.186.136 (Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:36:45 EST)
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Hi Eric,
    There probably is no physical reason the later HSC can't do the job ,
but the CRONIC support for it was only in HSC50 and only
up to what I would call a old version of CRONIC. I think it says so in the
CRONIC release notes when it was removed. I can only find
my doco for later HSC's and you probably find you need certain rev requester
boards. If I dig it up I'll post it. Any one else have this
stuff and can reply ?

        Cheers
                Mark :)



Eric Smith wrote:

> Do any of the HSCxx boxes newer than the HSC50 support 18-bit mode
> (576-byte sectors)?
>
> Do the disk drives attached to the HSC have to have special support
> for the 576-byte sectors, or does the HSC handle blocking and deblocking
> to a more common sector size?
>
> I've got an opportunity to pick up some HSCs and an SC cheap, but I don't
> want them unless there's some possiblity that they can be used on a
> KL10 system.  Of course, I'll also have to find a CI20 to make the stuff
> useful.



Article 5473 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Mark H. Wood" <mhwood@haystack.Bogusnet.IN.US>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:13:47 GMT
Organization: La Petite Hackerie
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <FF0q6z.F2z@Ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <12xi3.381$x4.47995@news3.voicenet.com> <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com> <7mketi$82j$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7mn250$f68$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> In article <7mketi$82j$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>In article <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com>,
>>   "Nick Bush" <Bush@A.C.M.org> wrote:
[snip]
>>>When we had our first VAX arrive with a TU45, we felt almost like we were
>>>back in the bad old days of the TU20s.   And apparently lots of other -10
>>>and -20 sites must have complained to DEC about the lack of good tape 
>>drives
>>>for VMS, since we got a contract from DEC to develop the device driver 
> for
>>>the TU7x's for VMS - we had the first set of TU7x drives dual ported 
>>between
>>>a DECsystem-10 (via a DX10) and a VAX (via a DX20).
>><snip>
>>
>>And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the heart of why DEC failed.

> It occurred to me yesterday that this comment could have been
> misunderstood.  It was not a commentary on Mr. Bush's ability
> to do the work.  It was a commentary of DEC not using its own
> experienced personnel.  My apologies, Nick.  

I heard what you meant, if that helps.

What struck me about this is that DEC didn't use *anyone* to solve
this problem before customers felt it necessary to complain.
Apparently nobody understood that the TU7x were "real" tape drives and
the rest weren't, or that that was a real problem for shops used to
the kind of work that '10s did.  Someone should have realized that an
industrial-strength removable-storage product was a requirement in
order to be taken seriously in such shops, and made sure that DEC had
one ready to ship.  I know that DEC liked to have the customers lead
the way, and that's one thing I really appreciated in most cases, but
backup and offline storage are really too obvious to require much
leadership, no?
-- 
-- 
Mark H. Wood, radical centrist     OpenPGP ID 876A8B75     mhwood@ameritech.net
Why do we always draw organization charts upside down?


Article 5480 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d2
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 09:11:00 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <7mv105$52h$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <37875C83.1D992A8C@MA.UltraNet.Com> <12xi3.381$x4.47995@news3.voicenet.com> <378AA773.9C8BCCA8@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com> <7mketi$82j$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7mn250$f68$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <FF0q6z.F2z@Ameritech.net>
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X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5480

In article <FF0q6z.F2z@Ameritech.net>,
   "Mark H. Wood" <mhwood@haystack.Bogusnet.IN.US> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> In article <7mketi$82j$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>>In article <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com>,
>>>   "Nick Bush" <Bush@A.C.M.org> wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>When we had our first VAX arrive with a TU45, we felt almost like we 
were
>>>>back in the bad old days of the TU20s.   And apparently lots of other 
-10
>>>>and -20 sites must have complained to DEC about the lack of good tape 
>>>drives
>>>>for VMS, since we got a contract from DEC to develop the device driver 
>> for
>>>>the TU7x's for VMS - we had the first set of TU7x drives dual ported 
>>>between
>>>>a DECsystem-10 (via a DX10) and a VAX (via a DX20).
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the heart of why DEC failed.
>
>> It occurred to me yesterday that this comment could have been
>> misunderstood.  It was not a commentary on Mr. Bush's ability
>> to do the work.  It was a commentary of DEC not using its own
>> experienced personnel.  My apologies, Nick.  
>
>I heard what you meant, if that helps.
>
>What struck me about this is that DEC didn't use *anyone* to solve
>this problem before customers felt it necessary to complain.
>Apparently nobody understood that the TU7x were "real" tape drives and
>the rest weren't, or that that was a real problem for shops used to
>the kind of work that '10s did.  Someone should have realized that an
>industrial-strength removable-storage product was a requirement in
>order to be taken seriously in such shops, and made sure that DEC had
>one ready to ship.  I know that DEC liked to have the customers lead
>the way, and that's one thing I really appreciated in most cases, but
>backup and offline storage are really too obvious to require much
>leadership, no?

All of this is explained by the fact that VMS people were 
allergic to anything that had to do with PDP-10s.  If the -10
types did something, the original VMS types would go out of
their way to NOT do it.  That's why DEC went down the tubes.
There was a major NIH syndrome up north.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5485 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <7mrj5n$hrj$1@shell3.ba.best.com>, inwap@best.com says...
>
>Thanks to Storage Technology Corporation in Louisville, Colorado.
>They made the best IBM-compatible tape drives around.  Very popular
>at sites with IBM System/370 and compatible processors
>
>DEC was smart enough to rebrand these tape drives with the Digital logo
>and add a working MASSbus to bus-and-tag adapter.

When I was young, foolish, and a bit impulsive, (and also responsible for MTA 
support in TOPS-10) I wrote a somewhat intemperate memo addressed to 
practically anyone who was anyone in 36-bit land. It was about the 
disreputable lack of serious tape products in the -10 product line. It ended 
with (if memory serves), "perhaps the best thing we can do for our customers 
who are serious about tape is give them STC's phone number."

I was told years later that this memo was the catalyst that got DEC talking to 
STC, resulting in the TU70s.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5477 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLISS-10
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:14:57 -0400
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3791E161.2D1D82FE@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <7kg08v$iht$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <37706667.3038342@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <Pine.NXT.4.20.9906222324400.20271-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> <3790AE07.5087C480@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7msaq4$mtr$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <3790AE07.5087C480@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >
> >....  (Note the irony: without BLISS-10 to implement FORTRAN-10, I
> >wonder whether there would ever have been an optimizing replacement for
> >F40.  Without an optimizing FORTRAN, there would have been a lot less
> >demand for KL's).
> 
> Why do you think that?

DEC invested money in replacing F40 with FORTRAN-10/20 because the
customers said it was necessary (just like those TU7x's).  The last I
heard, FORTRAN-10/20 had the highest PDP-10 market penetration of any
DEC layered product.

A product like FORTRAN-10/20 couldn't have been developed for nearly the
same cost in people, time and money without some implementation language
like BLISS-10.  What BLISS substitutes were already available on the -10
in the early 70's?
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5488 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <7n4a1k$d0u$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>In article <iXHk3.320$O2.15699@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
>   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>>When I was young, foolish, and a bit impulsive, (and also responsible for 
>MTA 
>>support in TOPS-10) I wrote a somewhat intemperate memo addressed to 
>>practically anyone who was anyone in 36-bit land. 
>>
>Jeez, it certainly took them long enough.  Jim had a chuckle
>because, one day, DEC was talking about a deal with STC in
>one end of the building (MRO) and talking about suing them
>in the other end of the building.

It should be said the the above referenced memo was written while we were 
still in Maynard.

>When the KL was first powered up, it blew the Marlboro
>plant's electric grid.  Is this true?  

I don't recall that this happened. I'm also trying to recall where the KL was 
first powered up, Maynard or Marlboro. I know a lot of the design and 
engineering took place on 5-5 in Maynard, but can't recall where the first 
prototype was built and tested. Anyone? RCC, if you're still lurking perhaps 
you remember.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5496 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 99 09:19:34 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <zyLl3.125$XM5.3070@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <7n6sp8$2l$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>>It should be said the the above referenced memo was written while we 
were 
>>>still in Maynard.
>>
>>Which was pre-1975.  But, if you wrote the memo, it was earlier than
>>that.  Wasn't it?  I don't remember seeing you when the move to
>>Marlboro happened.
>
>But then, Barb, aren't you always complaining about your memory? :-) 

Sigh!  Yup.  And the disease is making it worse in a very weird
way these days.

>I left 
>DEC in September, 1974; at which point we had been in Marlboro almost a 
year. 
>I probably wrote the memo in late 1972 or early 1973.

I don't remember moving the equipment to MRO that early; I always
thought it was '75 or so.  I do remember that the tape of the
20 vs. 10 trivia DECUS session showed that none of the panel
remembered either.  There was quite an argument :-).

Something that very few people know is how that equipment was moved
so quickly and successfully.  The guys in charge, Ed and Marty
(can't remember last names..Gillan and Vochel?) marked each piece
of equipment of all those systems with a "system color".  They
then plotted a unique path for each system to travel.  No one
door in either the Maynard or Marlboro plants had two systems
go through it.  So, if a box had, let's say, a blue color on it,
the blue path was taken from 5-5 out the blue door and into the
blue-marked trailer.  The blue trailer then was driven to the
blue door in Marlboro and the moving people took each blue
piece of equipment and followed the blue path to the blue
spot in the machine room.  

Knock down, transport and rebuilding the systems back up
to the point where they booted successfully took (I think)
less than 48 hours.  I do remember that TW didn't have an
interruption of his S/A time which was one of the criteria
that had to be met.

>
>>>>When the KL was first powered up, it blew the Marlboro
>>>>plant's electric grid.  Is this true?  
>>>
>>>I don't recall that this happened. I'm also trying to recall where the 
KL 
>>was 
>>>first powered up, Maynard or Marlboro. I know a lot of the design and 
>>>engineering took place on 5-5 in Maynard, but can't recall where the 
first 
>>>prototype was built and tested. Anyone? RCC, if you're still lurking 
>>perhaps 
>>>you remember.
>>>
>>
>>Or Jud; or Alan.  But I haven't anything about him for years.
>
>Pommer or Frantz?
>

They might remember, too.  I was thinking about Alan Kotok, though.
We certainly had a lot of Alans in our life back then :-).

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5497 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <7n9j2d$3ms$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>>But then, Barb, aren't you always complaining about your memory? :-) 
>
>Sigh!  Yup.  And the disease is making it worse in a very weird
>way these days.
>
>>I left 
>>DEC in September, 1974; at which point we had been in Marlboro almost a 
>year. 
>>I probably wrote the memo in late 1972 or early 1973.
>
>I don't remember moving the equipment to MRO that early; I always
>thought it was '75 or so.

We definitely moved to Marlboro in '73. I remember because DEC paid for each 
of the members of the Monitor Group to take a "business" trip after the 
successful completion of some release, the version number of which I can't 
recall. TW went to Australia, JMF to Europe, Lewine went to California (I 
think), and I went down south to race. I raced at Talladega and the Charlotte 
Motor Speedway on successive weekends in August 1974, travel courtesy of DEC. 
At that point we had been in Marlboro almost a year. When I got back from the 
trip I had a phone message which lead directly to my leaving DEC for First 
Data in September, 1974.

>>>>>When the KL was first powered up, it blew the Marlboro
>>>>>plant's electric grid.  Is this true?  
>>>>
>>>>I don't recall that this happened. I'm also trying to recall where the 
>KL 
>>>was 
>>>>first powered up, Maynard or Marlboro. I know a lot of the design and 
>>>>engineering took place on 5-5 in Maynard, but can't recall where the 
>first 
>>>>prototype was built and tested. Anyone? RCC, if you're still lurking 
>>>perhaps 
>>>>you remember.

RCC still lurks:


Hi, John,

1)  I had long left DEC when the KL was first turned on.  I left in
    January, 1972.  No KL-s around then.

2)  Everyone was impressed at how much power a KL used.  It was amazing
    that DEC had stayed with linear power regulators at that stage
    of power supply technology.  The power plug was REALLY impressive.

    But even so, a KL system couldn't have sucked much more than
    a few times the power of a KI system.  So it strikes me
    as very unlikely that it took out any of the power system.
    Surely Marlboro had lots of KI's plugged in.

    And specifically, no I never heard of that happening (though, like I
    said, I wasn't there).

/Rcc


-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5505 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d6
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Another good guy is gone
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 09:24:10 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <7nes2i$9dt$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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In article <VEtm3.322$XM5.8029@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <7nc8ca$d9o$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>I just got mail that Al Blackington died Thursday.  Terry McCutcheon
>>wrote the note.
>
>Too bad. Reminds me of how shocked and saddened I was when upon 
discovering 
>this newsgroup I also learned that TW, JMF, and PFC were gone.
>

Yes.  That generation of TOPS10 people are diminishing.  I only
knew Al to say hi to him after he began working for the Fortran
group in the 80s (or was it late 70s?).  What I do remember
was the time that I convinced TW to go to one of Reed's parties;
getting TW or JMF to go was harder than pulling a very cross lion's
tooth for some reason.  Al was there.  And TW and Al must have
spent 2 hours just setting and quietly talking.  That was good
for TW.  

For some strange reason, I don't remember him when I was
editing the monitor.  He must have been in the background.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5502 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Harris Newman <hsnewman@blkbox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: MIMIC
Date: 24 Jul 1999 13:28:20 GMT
Organization: The Black Box Internet Access Houston TX 713-638-9983/409-638-1000
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try : http://www.digital.com/DTJN02/DTJN02HM.HTM#tab2

Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <7n7631$r64$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,  <hsnewman@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >Quoting from Maxwell M. Burnet and Robert M. Supnik:
> >(in their paper on Preserving Computing's Past: Restoration and
> >Simulation)

> Have you got a reference to that paper? Is it available on the Net?

> -- 
> Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
> ------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


Article 5507 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit)
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In article <7nf1it$30s$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>In article <9ztm3.321$XM5.8029@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
>   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>>In article <7nc83i$anu$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>>
>>>>We definitely moved to Marlboro in '73. I remember because DEC paid for 
>>>each 
>>>>of the members of the Monitor Group to take a "business" trip after the 
>>>>successful completion of some release, the version number of which I 
>can't 
>>>>recall. TW went to Australia, JMF to Europe, Lewine went to California 
>(I 
>>>>think), and I went down south to race. I raced at Talladega and the 
>>>Charlotte 
>>>>Motor Speedway on successive weekends in August 1974, travel courtesy of 
>>>DEC. 
>>>
>>>Well, JMF's trip to Europe happened at the same time Nixon resigned.
>>>He had a great story about that since he was in the middle of Italy
>>>during their vacation month and couldn't get anybody to translate
>>>the paper for him.
>>
>>Exactly; I watched Nixon's resignation speach from my room at the 
>Downtowner 
>>Motel in Anniston, Alabama. We had practice and qualifying the next day at 
>>Talladega.
>>
>And you guys were in Marlboro then.

Absolutely!

>Hmmm. everybody was wrong except you :-).

Story of my life. :-)

And I think the Monitor release we were rewarded for was 5.07/6.01. This 
is because I recall the work I did on DAEMON to make DUMP and DCORE work with 
VM. I debugged that stuff in the machine room on the second floor at Marlboro. 
Wasn't that the first release with VM support?

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5509 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <7nhipn$gf8$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>In article <KJVm3.406$XM5.10979@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
>   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>>
>>And I think the Monitor release we were rewarded for was 5.07/6.01. This 
>>is because I recall the work I did on DAEMON to make DUMP and DCORE work 
>with 
>>VM. I debugged that stuff in the machine room on the second floor at 
>Marlboro. 
>>Wasn't that the first release with VM support?
>>
>Yup.  The 6 in version number was the VM indicator.  Did Cliff
>Romash take over the DAEMON work from you?  I do remember he
>was doing a lot of DAEMON stuff but I don't remember what it
>was (boy, do I miss my Black packs...a simple TECO inquiry 
>would answer most of these questions).

I remember Cliff, but I don't recall who took over DAEMON after the 6.01 work.

> Was 5.06 the one with a big disaster in it?

I recall 5.05 wasn't anything to write home about, but I don't recall a big 
disaster in 5.06. In fact I get a "warm and fuzzy" contemplating the number 
5.06.

> Who was the -10 supervisor then?

Good question. PFC was running all of TOPS-10 programming during the time I 
worked in Marlboro. He tried a brief experiment by hiring an outside guy to 
manage the Monitor Group. I can't even remember his name, but he had no 
previous -10 experience at all, and while a nice enough guy wasn't very 
effective. PFC then promoted another guy to run the Monitor Group, yet another 
name I can't remember. I do recall that he was about my height, dark 
complected, and had an annoying habit of invading people's (or at least my) 
personal space. He'd stand with his face about a foot from your's to talk to 
you. I had always treated him with the utmost contempt (even before his 
ascention) and complained bitterly to PFC about having to report to him, so 
Peter made a special deal and I got to report to someone else. Yet another 
name I can't recall. On further reflection, could the personal space invader's 
name have been Corbin?

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5514 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d12
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 09:12:12 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <FFJw6v.IJI@world.std.com>,
   bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) wrote:
>In article <KJVm3.406$XM5.10979@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
>John Everett <jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com> wrote:
>
>>And I think the Monitor release we were rewarded for was 5.07/6.01. This 
>>is because I recall the work I did on DAEMON to make DUMP and DCORE work 
with 
>>VM. I debugged that stuff in the machine room on the second floor at 
Marlboro. 
>>Wasn't that the first release with VM support?
>
>Whup... quick tangent/divergence here.  This is coming from someone who
>knows nothing about the operating systems which ran on the PDP-10 line,
>but what did DAEMON do?  I'm sort of curious from the standpoint of the
>history of the term "daemon".  The jargon file entry gives some insight
>into the term, but not really in relation to TOPS.

DAEMON was considered the swappable part of the monitor.

There was also the file daemon (FILDAE) which extended file
protections and the accounting daemon (ACTDAE) which replaced
those gawdawful FACT files.

The reason they were called daemons was that they were programs
that invisibly worked in the background to do system functions.
The user address space wasnt' bothered.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5519 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 
 questions...))
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:24:56 -0400
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <379FD798.A264179E@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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Brian Chase wrote:

> Whup... quick tangent/divergence here.  This is coming from someone who
> knows nothing about the operating systems which ran on the PDP-10 line,
> but what did DAEMON do?  ...

"
	SUBTTL	DAEMON CALLS

;DAEMON UUO FUNCTIONS

.DCORE==1	;(OBSOLETE)
.CLOCK==2	;ENTER A CLOCK REQUEST
.FACT==3	;MAKE A FACT FILE ENTRY
.DMQUE==4	;(UNIMPLEMENTED)
.DMERR==5	;ERROR LOGGING
.DMCTL==6	;(UNIMPLEMENTED)
"

I thought DAEMON core dump files were cool, at least potentially,
because they had fields for DDBs (device data blocks) - open file data
from the O/S which wasn't directly accessible through other means.

The "clock request" function made DAEMON send a WAKE back at you n
seconds later, I guess for potentially large n.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5518 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Sheila&bob <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 
 questions...))
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:04:20 -0400
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John Everett wrote:
> 
> In article <7n4a1k$d0u$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
> >
> >In article <iXHk3.320$O2.15699@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
> >   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
> >>When I was young, foolish, and a bit impulsive, (and also responsible for
> >MTA
> >>support in TOPS-10) I wrote a somewhat intemperate memo addressed to
> >>practically anyone who was anyone in 36-bit land.
> >>
> >Jeez, it certainly took them long enough.  Jim had a chuckle
> >because, one day, DEC was talking about a deal with STC in
> >one end of the building (MRO) and talking about suing them
> >in the other end of the building.
> 
> It should be said the the above referenced memo was written while we were
> still in Maynard.
> 
> >When the KL was first powered up, it blew the Marlboro
> >plant's electric grid.  Is this true?
> 
> I don't recall that this happened. I'm also trying to recall where the KL was
> first powered up, Maynard or Marlboro. I know a lot of the design and
> engineering took place on 5-5 in Maynard, but can't recall where the first
> prototype was built and tested. Anyone? RCC, if you're still lurking perhaps
> you remember.

The first KLs were powered up in building 1.  In Maynard.
Yes the lights dimmed.  Boston Edison did come out and add some
capability.
DEC did have a bit to do with the second exchange being added to
maynard, the new ESS, and power upgrades!!
bob

> 
> --
> jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett


Article 5524 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10
 questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <7npckn$iou$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>>The first KLs were powered up in building 1.
>
>KLs?  Plural?  And now I can't remember where building 1 was.
>(I remember the building by the meandering paths we had to
>take from Tape Prep.)  IIRC, B-1 was one of those tricky ones
>that caused a new hire never to return to be seen again :-).

Building 1 was the one where the entire south wall was along the mill pond. 
It was reached via a three level bridge from Building 5. There were also a 
couple of bridges from Building 3, but I don't recall that these were ever 
opened. Down at the very end of Building 1 there was a connection to 
Building 21, also adjacent to the pond.

However, I don't ever recall any -10 stuff being in Building 1. If a KL was 
ever powered up in Maynard I'd guess it would have been on 5-5.

>>  In Maynard.
>>Yes the lights dimmed.  Boston Edison did come out and add some
>>capability.
>>DEC did have a bit to do with the second exchange being added to
>>maynard, the new ESS, and power upgrades!!
>>bob
>
>If I may ask...Bob who?

Yes, who indeed?

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5526 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Sheila&bob <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid 
 TOPS-10questions...))
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:14:59 -0400
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Message-ID: <37A118B3.C0B4E833@erols.com>
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John Everett wrote:
> 
> In article <7npckn$iou$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
> >
> >>The first KLs were powered up in building 1.
> >
> >KLs?  Plural?  And now I can't remember where building 1 was.
> >(I remember the building by the meandering paths we had to
> >take from Tape Prep.)  IIRC, B-1 was one of those tricky ones
> >that caused a new hire never to return to be seen again :-).
> 
> Building 1 was the one where the entire south wall was along the mill pond.
> It was reached via a three level bridge from Building 5. There were also a
> couple of bridges from Building 3, but I don't recall that these were ever
> opened. Down at the very end of Building 1 there was a connection to
> Building 21, also adjacent to the pond.
> 
> However, I don't ever recall any -10 stuff being in Building 1. If a KL was
> ever powered up in Maynard I'd guess it would have been on 5-5.
> 
> >>  In Maynard.
> >>Yes the lights dimmed.  Boston Edison did come out and add some
> >>capability.
> >>DEC did have a bit to do with the second exchange being added to
> >>maynard, the new ESS, and power upgrades!!
> >>bob
> >
> >If I may ask...Bob who?
> 
> Yes, who indeed?
> 
Ok, Building 1 had the first 8/e assembly line. The 9 and 15 lines.  It
was, I think on 1-4, where Cudamore had his office.  Down the hall from
Module Test.  yeah, it was next to the pond. I think Core memory test
was there too. More than one power supply that was not repairable fell
out the window into the pond.

On the first floor of Building 1 was the first real CAD setup.  Don't
you recall GOD - Graphics Online Delivery?  I recall 4 KLs on that
floor.  A couple of KIs.
CSS had their lab - where the first 11/20 (really 11/15 - no power fail
circuit) built for Aeroflot was put together.  The 8/e lab was just down
the hall in Building 1, next to building 5.

Yeah, when Alan Kotok, Vic Ku, and the rest of the crew were around, the
very First KL was in Building 5(5-5) BUT the install of Multiple KLs and
the KIs in 1-1 required a bit more service.

I can't recall who all the guys were...one guy had a lotus (the car!). 
It was before the purchase of Alberquerque and Arizona facilities -
before Stockebrand left DEComm-11 land.  Before the purple plague took
over.

Nope, I am not RCC.  I am just one of the bob smiths.


Article 5529 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d7
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid
 TOPS-10questions...))
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 09:23:15 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 77
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In article <37A118B3.C0B4E833@erols.com>,
   Sheila&bob <shsrms@erols.com> wrote:
>John Everett wrote:
>> 
>> In article <7npckn$iou$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>> >
>> >>The first KLs were powered up in building 1.
>> >
>> >KLs?  Plural?  And now I can't remember where building 1 was.
>> >(I remember the building by the meandering paths we had to
>> >take from Tape Prep.)  IIRC, B-1 was one of those tricky ones
>> >that caused a new hire never to return to be seen again :-).
>> 
>> Building 1 was the one where the entire south wall was along the mill 
pond.
>> It was reached via a three level bridge from Building 5. There were also 
a
>> couple of bridges from Building 3, but I don't recall that these were 
ever
>> opened. Down at the very end of Building 1 there was a connection to
>> Building 21, also adjacent to the pond.
>> 
>> However, I don't ever recall any -10 stuff being in Building 1. If a KL 
was
>> ever powered up in Maynard I'd guess it would have been on 5-5.
>> 
>> >>  In Maynard.
>> >>Yes the lights dimmed.  Boston Edison did come out and add some
>> >>capability.
>> >>DEC did have a bit to do with the second exchange being added to
>> >>maynard, the new ESS, and power upgrades!!
>> >>bob
>> >
>> >If I may ask...Bob who?
>> 
>> Yes, who indeed?
>> 
>Ok, Building 1 had the first 8/e assembly line. The 9 and 15 lines.  It
>was, I think on 1-4, where Cudamore had his office.  Down the hall from
>Module Test.  yeah, it was next to the pond. I think Core memory test
>was there too. More than one power supply that was not repairable fell
>out the window into the pond.
>
>On the first floor of Building 1 was the first real CAD setup.  Don't
>you recall GOD - Graphics Online Delivery?  I recall 4 KLs on that
>floor.  A couple of KIs.

Then those KLs were not the first KLs.  Was that the CAD that was
headed  by Mr. Abel (I can't remember his first name, Tom?).
If it was they definitely weren't the first KLs.

>CSS had their lab - where the first 11/20 (really 11/15 - no power fail
>circuit) built for Aeroflot was put together.  The 8/e lab was just down
>the hall in Building 1, next to building 5.
>
>Yeah, when Alan Kotok, Vic Ku, and the rest of the crew were around, the
>very First KL was in Building 5(5-5) BUT the install of Multiple KLs and
>the KIs in 1-1 required a bit more service.

Well, they couldn't have been the first KLs.  What software did they
run?  JMF and Dan Murphy did the CPU code and I know that was done
in Marlboro.  I think I wrote about the disaster of a diagnostic type
destroying the pack.

>
>I can't recall who all the guys were...one guy had a lotus (the car!). 
>It was before the purchase of Alberquerque and Arizona facilities -
>before Stockebrand left DEComm-11 land.  Before the purple plague took
>over.
>
>Nope, I am not RCC.  I am just one of the bob smiths.

Yup.  We know you're not RCC :-).

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5533 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid
 TOPS-10questions...))
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
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In article <7ns1ub$r1f$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>Well, they couldn't have been the first KLs.  What software did they
>run?  JMF and Dan Murphy did the CPU code and I know that was done
>in Marlboro.

Barb, I know you're always complaining about your memory but I would have 
thought you'd have gotten this right. A lot of the operating system work for 
the KLs was done in Maynard, at least when initially the KL was going to be 
introduced with only one (new) OS. Dan Murphy lurks here and sometimes 
contributes, so he can confirm that he joined DEC while we were still in 
Maynard. I believe he brought TENEX through the VIROS and SNARK phases of its 
lifecycle while still in the mill. I can't recall when LCG (was it called LCG 
then?) finally gave approval to port TOPS-10 to the KL, but that might well 
have also been while we were still in Maynard. Dan, can you help with the 
chronology here?

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 5541 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.44.7!wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10questions...))
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
     <7mhtf7$ns2$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <V2cj3.16$C4.2784@news2.voicenet.com>
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From: werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme)
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jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) writes:

>In article <7ns1ub$r1f$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...

> Dan Murphy lurks here and sometimes 
>contributes, so he can confirm that he joined DEC while we were still in 
>Maynard. I believe he brought TENEX through the VIROS and SNARK phases of its 
>lifecycle while still in the mill.

No way!.  I joined DEC in July 1974.  At that point the -10 group
had moved to Marlboro long enough before so that no one talked about them
being in the mill.  I didn't join the group for 9 months.  At that time,
VIROS was the code name, it changed to SNARK, KRANS, and back to SNARK
all during my tenure in Marlboro.  Well, maybe SNARK came about when I
was was in MR one a week.

I can't recall what shape the KL was in when I moved to MR, otherwise I would
have piped up earlier.

--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5540 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: Sheila&bob <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple 
 stupidTOPS-10questions...))
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 22:16:04 -0400
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Yeah, Lou Abel ran the 10 based Cad shop.
Who was spock? I can't recall.
I recall John DeRose working there, Lou, and some of the others.

After Marlboro opened and the PDP10 crew moved out, the 5-5 area was
taken over by a good sized contingent of the 11 software crew, RT and
RSX folks. The lab, on I guess it would be south end? of 5- (furthest
from the parking lot) there was a section for the PDP12.


Where was Pat Sullivan during this time?  Or Ron Bingham?  McClure? 
Rick Merrill was still in 8 land, had not done anything with GiGi yet. 
Vic Ku was working comm systems, PDP8 based comms front ends for the
10s.
When I started in 69, one of the first things I asked was why DEC was
not doing anything with ecl.  That caused a couple of folks to kind of
Jump.

My memory of that time is rusty, yeah, the first power up of MULTIPLE
KLs in 1-1, did cause some flickering, that might have been 73 or 74. 
The 1-1 rehab was quite nice at the time.

bob

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <%0jo3.319$Ty1.9173@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
>    jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
> >In article <7ns1ub$r1f$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
> >>
> >>Well, they couldn't have been the first KLs.  What software did they
> >>run?  JMF and Dan Murphy did the CPU code and I know that was done
> >>in Marlboro.
> >
> >Barb, I know you're always complaining about your memory but I would have
> >thought you'd have gotten this right. A lot of the operating system work
> for
> >the KLs was done in Maynard, at least when initially the KL was going to
> be
> >introduced with only one (new) OS.
> 
> The pack wipe accident happened in Marlboro.
> 
> > Dan Murphy lurks here and sometimes
> >contributes, so he can confirm that he joined DEC while we were still in
> >Maynard. I believe he brought TENEX through the VIROS and SNARK phases of
> its
> >lifecycle while still in the mill.
> 
> Right.  And he took 546 stand alone in the afternoons for that work.
> I don't know what he took stand alone when you guys moved to Marlboro
> because I didn't collect the S/A data then.
> 
> >I can't recall when LCG (was it called LCG
> >then?) finally gave approval to port TOPS-10 to the KL, but that might
> well
> >have also been while we were still in Maynard. Dan, can you help with the
> >chronology here?
> >
> Yea, please help this poor brain-damaged soul :-).
> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5523 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...))
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9905171202310.15552-100000@bony.umtec.com> <7mgjsk$9fr$1@shell3.ba.best.com>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>In article <379FA894.1BC2466@erols.com>,
>   Sheila&bob <shsrms@erols.com> wrote:

>>The first KLs were powered up in building 1.

>KLs?  Plural?  And now I can't remember where building 1 was.

I think that parallelled (sorta) bldg 3.  I got my start on 3-5.  Hmm.
you might heve been the person who brought from "orientation" to my
cube on my first day at work on 3-5.

Ahh, here's my map.  Bridges went from 3-6 to 1-3.  I think 1-1 was where
the circuit board etching area was.  From 3-5 I went to 4-? to a bridge to
5-2, and down to 5-B (below mill pond level), past the salvage area
and turned left into the system 40 area, which was a dual KI system
when I showed up.

>(I remember the building by the meandering paths we had to
>take from Tape Prep.)  IIRC, B-1 was one of those tricky ones
>that caused a new hire never to return to be seen again :-).

My map was my most important posession for the first three weeks.  After
the first week I tried taking a different route every day.

>>bob

>If I may ask...Bob who?

RCC, I assume.  Hi Bob!

--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5539 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: A primeval C compiler
References: <379FE9FA.7D08@bell-labs.com> <slrn7q1ciu.2v9.kaz@ashi.FootPrints.net> 	<37A11263.8A903F56@null.net> <slrn7q2dtn.jej.kaz@ashi.FootPrints.net> 	<37A2002B.504C8ADA@softstar.it> <ALDERSON.99Jul30150436@netcom16.netcom.com>
X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
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Someone wrote (in another newsgroup):
> Agree. SCO is just a very small company with more bean counters than
> visionares. Compare it with DEC that freed all 36 bit software, gives VMS
> 				      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes::
> Oh?  Please cite a reference for this item.  We'd be extremely interested...

I imagine he must be referring to the hobbyist license.  All DEC's 36-bit
software was made available for noncommercial use.  You can find the
license on my web site or Joe's.

That's why I've on several occasions asked you by private email whether
you could supply copies of the DEC distribution tapes in your posession
(NOT the XKL versions); I have a legal license to obtain and use the stuff.

Cheers,
Eric

http://www.36bit.org/dec/


Article 5535 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Alan "AlB" Blackington (was Re: Another good guy is gone)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:46:37 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I just got mail that Al Blackington died Thursday.  [Charlie]
> McCutcheon wrote the note.  I think Terry's node name is KMOOSE but
> I'm not sure.  The note was posted in some flavor of Digital notes
> file.

"
Date:	Thu, 29 Jul 99 18:35:36 -0400
From:	Terrie Scott <tbs@cyberportal.net>

Cornish -- Alan Eugene Blackington, 59, died Thursday at Integrated
Health Services in Claremont, NH, where he had resided for the past
year.

He was born on July 10, 1940, in Windsor, Vermont, a son of Eugene C.
Blackington and Elinor (Edson) Blackington.  He attended schools in West
Windsor and Windsor, Vermont, and was a graduate of the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology.  After graduation Mr. Blackington worked for
more than twenty-five years for Digital Equipment Corporation in Maynard
and Marlboro, Massachusetts and Nashua, New Hampshire where he was a
well-known and accomplished software engineer.

Survivors include two daughters, Theresa B. Scott of Cornish and
Marguerite H. Burth of Newport, NH; three brothers, Brian Blackington of
Columbus, OH, Leland Blackington of Windsor, and Robert Blackington of
Lee, NH; four sisters, Betty Cross of Windsor, Barbara Hall of
Huntington, VT, Dale Beaulieu of Cornish, and Karen Hurlburt of Windsor;
six grandchildren and several cousins, nieces and nephews.

He was predeceased by both his parents.

Calling hours [were on 23-Jul-99] from 7:00 to 9:00 pm at Knight Funeral
Home in Windsor, Vermont.  There [was on 24-Jul-99] a graveside service
at the Brownsville Cemetery on Saturday at 2:00 pm.

In lieu of flowers memorial gifts may be made to the Brain Injury
Association of New Hampshire, 2 1/2 Beacon Street, Concord, NH 03301 [
http://www.bianh.org/ ; 603-225-8400 ] or to the Employee Assistance
Fund, Integrated Health Services at Claremont, RFD 3 Box 47, Claremont,
NH 03743 [ 603-542-2606 ].
"

Condolences may be sent to AlB's family via his daughter Terrie at the
above EMail address.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5544 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d17
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TU10/20/7x (was: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10questions...))
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 99 11:05:47 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <wuPo3.1737$W11.33133@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>,
   werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) wrote:
>jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) writes:
>
>>In article <7ns1ub$r1f$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>> Dan Murphy lurks here and sometimes 
>>contributes, so he can confirm that he joined DEC while we were still in 
>>Maynard. I believe he brought TENEX through the VIROS and SNARK phases of 
its 
>>lifecycle while still in the mill.
>
>No way!.  I joined DEC in July 1974.  At that point the -10 group
>had moved to Marlboro long enough before so that no one talked about them
>being in the mill.  I didn't join the group for 9 months.  At that time,
>VIROS was the code name, it changed to SNARK, KRANS, and back to SNARK
>all during my tenure in Marlboro.  Well, maybe SNARK came about when I
>was was in MR one a week.

That all happened during the time that Peter Hurley was supervisor
of the -20 group.  The code names were the idiots' idea of keeping
the new OS development a secret.  All that subtrafuge was a PITA
because the same people who insisted on secrecy were the ones who
asked for special permission to talk to particular customers about
it.  Every coded name change produced manhours worth of work to 
run macros over the documents to reflect the latest.  It was also
caused by a reluctance of unknown persons to want to call the
product TOPS-anything.

>
>I can't recall what shape the KL was in when I moved to MR, otherwise I 
would
>have piped up earlier.
>
I'll say it again.  At that time JMF and Dan were writing their
KLSERs and related code using the KLs that were in the 
engineering lab (not the software lab).  There were two KLs
there but I don't know if the second one was runnable at the
time.  There was a lot of contention between hardware and software
because the hardware types claimed to need the hardware to develop
the hardware but didn't seem to understand that they wouldn't
be selling a single CPU without the software.  I don't think
those hardware types ever learned because Jim ran into the
same problem later with one of the VAX flavors and Alpha.
We always had that problem with peripherals.  Marketing always
promised the first hardware to a customer but refused to let
software engineering have it hooked up to our systems before
first customer ship.  Then, when the hardware didn't work due
to no software, the fit hit the shan.  And it happened every
damn time.  Markerteers never had an ability to learn.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5548 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.mv.net!not-for-mail
From: Dan Murphy <dlm@opost.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: MLO - MRO move.  (was Re: TU10/20/7x et al)
Date: 06 Aug 1999 13:00:23 -0400
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    I haven't been lurking that much recently, so I'm not sure I got
    the original question.  However, here are a couple salient
    timestamps:

    Jan 2, 1973 - I started at DEC as a regular employee.  For the 3
    months prior to that, I had worked on a fixed-price fixed-time
    contract to port TENEX to the KI-10.  As of Jan 2, John Leng and
    the other powers-that-be had already decided to do a "new" OS for
    the next generation of 36-bit hardware.  This decision got made
    during my 3-month contract when: (1) it became clear that TENEX
    really could be made to work on the KI-10, and (2) IBM announced
    "virtual memory", thus making all the DEC marketeers believe they
    hadda have it asap.  (I love it when things like this happen...)

    Over the course of the next few months, Peter Hurley joined me in
    the "new os" group.  We were working for the engineering manager,
    Fred Wilhelm, at the time, not for SWE under Peter Conklin.  Tom
    Hastings also began devoting most of his time to the project as I
    recall, although he continued to report to PFC.  Peter and I had
    offices on 5-5 along with the hardware engineers.  During the
    first year, Arnie Miller and Len Bosack joined the group also.

    March 1, 1974 (approx) - Our group moved to MRO.  This date is
    easy as it was about two weeks after our first (and only) child
    was born.  Sara and I had both been working in the Mill, but she
    was out on maternity leave when the move to MRO happened.  At the
    point we moved, I *think* I had had a small amount of access to
    actual KL-10 hardware, but I'm not real clear on that.  I think
    there was a prototype down the hall on 5-5 that I did a bit of
    hacking on.  We continued to use a KI-10 for quite a bit of the
    work of beefing up the OS that wasn't very machine-dependent.

    When we got to MRO, I think it was just the four of us (dlm, pmh,
    asm, lb) working directly on the OS.  Supervisors came and went,
    and I can't recall exactly when.  Tom Hastings was supervisor for
    a while when we were in the Mill.  Then, Howard Steadman was
    hired.  Lou Cohen was in there somewhere after we were in MRO, and
    then Dick Snyder.  Peter Hurley became supervisor when Snyder
    moved up.  I stayed as technical honcho through first few releases
    and only lost my good sense for a while in the early '80s when I
    was TOPS-20 supervisor for a year.

    Also, don't ask me to nail down dates for the various names!  Ugh.
    I know that Fred Wilhelm came up with VIROS while we were still in
    the Mill, and it was John Leng who always made it sound like VIRUS
    when he said it.  (Not intentionally; it just came out that way.)
    SNARK and the later name madness was foisted on us only after we'd
    moved to MRO though; of that I'm sure.

    (Hey, I just checked and viros.com is available!  Anybody want to
    grab it?  Such a cool name.  snark.com is taken, but it sucks
    anyhow.)

    Anyhow, hope that helps with some of the nostalgia.
    
    
    dlm
    
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

> In article <wuPo3.1737$W11.33133@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>,
>    werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) wrote:
> >jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) writes:
> >
> >>In article <7ns1ub$r1f$2@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
> >
> >> Dan Murphy lurks here and sometimes 
> >>contributes, so he can confirm that he joined DEC while we were still in 
> >>Maynard. I believe he brought TENEX through the VIROS and SNARK phases of 
> its 
> >>lifecycle while still in the mill.
> >
> >No way!.  I joined DEC in July 1974.  At that point the -10 group
> >had moved to Marlboro long enough before so that no one talked about them
> >being in the mill.  I didn't join the group for 9 months.  At that time,
> >VIROS was the code name, it changed to SNARK, KRANS, and back to SNARK
> >all during my tenure in Marlboro.  Well, maybe SNARK came about when I
> >was was in MR one a week.
> 
> That all happened during the time that Peter Hurley was supervisor
> of the -20 group.  The code names were the idiots' idea of keeping
> the new OS development a secret.  All that subtrafuge was a PITA
> because the same people who insisted on secrecy were the ones who
> asked for special permission to talk to particular customers about
> it.  Every coded name change produced manhours worth of work to 
> run macros over the documents to reflect the latest.  It was also
> caused by a reluctance of unknown persons to want to call the
> product TOPS-anything.
> 
> >
> >I can't recall what shape the KL was in when I moved to MR, otherwise I 
> would
> >have piped up earlier.
> >
> I'll say it again.  At that time JMF and Dan were writing their
> KLSERs and related code using the KLs that were in the 
> engineering lab (not the software lab).  There were two KLs
> there but I don't know if the second one was runnable at the
> time.  There was a lot of contention between hardware and software
> because the hardware types claimed to need the hardware to develop
> the hardware but didn't seem to understand that they wouldn't
> be selling a single CPU without the software.  I don't think
> those hardware types ever learned because Jim ran into the
> same problem later with one of the VAX flavors and Alpha.
> We always had that problem with peripherals.  Marketing always
> promised the first hardware to a customer but refused to let
> software engineering have it hooked up to our systems before
> first customer ship.  Then, when the hardware didn't work due
> to no software, the fit hit the shan.  And it happened every
> damn time.  Markerteers never had an ability to learn.
> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5550 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!nntp.ix.netcom.com!alderson
From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: A primeval C compiler
Date: 06 Aug 1999 23:43:59 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Aug6164359@netcom16.netcom.com>
References: <379FE9FA.7D08@bell-labs.com> <slrn7q1ciu.2v9.kaz@ashi.FootPrints.net>
	<37A11263.8A903F56@null.net> <slrn7q2dtn.jej.kaz@ashi.FootPrints.net>
	<37A2002B.504C8ADA@softstar.it>
	<ALDERSON.99Jul30150436@netcom16.netcom.com>
	<qhr9lofhnw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: netcom16.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 06  6:43:59 PM CDT 1999
NNTP-Posting-User: alderson
In-reply-to: Eric Smith's message of 31 Jul 1999 17:50:27 -0700
Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:135855 alt.sys.pdp10:5550

In article <qhr9lofhnw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith
<eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:

>Someone wrote (in another newsgroup):
>> Agree. SCO is just a very small company with more bean counters than
>> visionares. Compare it with DEC that freed all 36 bit software, gives VMS
>> 				      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes::
>> Oh?  Please cite a reference for this item.  We'd be extremely interested...

>I imagine he must be referring to the hobbyist license.  All DEC's 36-bit
>software was made available for noncommercial use.  You can find the license
>on my web site or Joe's.

That seems to be what was intended.

>That's why I've on several occasions asked you by private email whether
>you could supply copies of the DEC distribution tapes in your posession
>(NOT the XKL versions); I have a legal license to obtain and use the stuff.

The problem is that we don't have DEC distribution tapes, we only have licensed
source.  (Distribution tapes are just so much clutter if you aren't going to
use them.)  I wish I *could* provide such a service.
--
Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 5618 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.voicenet.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:17:13 -0400
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <37C81999.BE194825@erols.com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5618

I think I can shed some light on this, probably not the whole picture.

"Carl R. Friend" wrote:
> 
> Phil Gagner, in article nr. <37c4576e.0@news.kivex.com>, wrote:

>    In a way, I'm surprised that DEC didn't use an -8 as the front-
> end to the KL. An 8A (if they existed at the time) would have made
> a good choice unless they needed the -11's address space. Does any-
> body know why the choice of the 11/40 was made?
Dave McClure had done the comm stuff using the 8/e based comms
capabilities to replace the old 8i based stuff. I think Dave lurks here,
I am suffering a senior moment and can't recall that comm project using
the /e, DP8/e, KG8-ea, and some other bits. 

The 8e, and f were around (the m was not intended to have a switch front
panel) as was the 8/m.
The purple plague was in power, so it was politically correct to move
the former 8 based capabilities to the 11, AND to take advantage of the
emphasis on the 11 comm capabilities.  I don't recall the name of the
"window" that allowed you to have a unibus device hanging off the 10's. 
11/40 was fairly expandable, much more robust than the 20, and lots
cheaper than the 45, so ....
The DECComm-11 group was charged to create all the comm stuff = with Tom
Stockebrand and then Vince Bastiani leading the group.  8's, with the
MSB number properly just like the 10, were considered passe.  even tho
every single machine that could be built on the 8 lines was sold every
year.  Rueters kept coming in and buying rather large quantities.

If someone wants to check the history:
the original FPP8a, Don White's dual board FPP for the expanded omnibus,
ran rings around the 11/60, the 11/34a, the 11/40, and gave teh 11/70 a
good run for its money on fortran bench marks.

Don't forget about the dragon and hydra efforts - the attempts to merge
the 10 and 11 capabilities that really fueled the concept called Vax. 
The KL really spurred some research into an ECL 11, but the realization
that the 16bit word length and the limited address space, manufacturing
costs of the beast, and truly - market conditions  - we did have a bit
of a turn down a couple of times in the 70s  - kind of 

rambling mode off
bob

> 
> --
> +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
> | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
> | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
> | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
> | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
> +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 5621 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:51:55 -0400
Organization: as little as possible!
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"Alan H. Martin" wrote, in article
nr. <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com>:
> 
> [The DL-10] was the 10<=>11 "memory window" which attached the DC76.

   I don't know a whole lot about the DC76, but the DL-10 was a three
feet by three feet by six feet rack which supported a maximum of four
UNIBUS systems. They were "cool" devices.

   Didn't the DC76 attach directly somehow?

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 5631 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:13:32 -0400
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <37C9DABC.E020A403@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <37BD3009.7CF7F12C@voicenet.com> <ALDERSON.99Aug20123139@netcom10.netcom.com> <37BED3F6.9EC3C84B@voicenet.com> <ALDERSON.99Aug23120804@netcom16.netcom.com> <37C28ABE.3661EAAD@voicenet.com> <7pu4le$dfl$4@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7pvq0e$t88@dfw-ixnews17.ix.netcom.com> <37c4576e.0@news.kivex.com> <37C7EEB2.23654470@prescienttech.com> <37C81999.BE194825@erols.com> <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com> <37C83DDB.4A3AF499@prescienttech.com>
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"Carl R. Friend" wrote:
> 
> "Alan H. Martin" wrote, in article
> nr. <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com>:
> >
> > [The DL-10] was the 10<=>11 "memory window" which attached the DC76.
> 
>    I don't know a whole lot about the DC76, but the DL-10 was a three
> feet by three feet by six feet rack which supported a maximum of four
> UNIBUS systems. They were "cool" devices.
> 
>    Didn't the DC76 attach directly somehow?

As long as my memory is valid that the DL-10 was a 10<=>11 memory
window, then that's what the DC76 used - KA-109 (BOCES/LIRICS) had a
DC76, and I read the DC76's (-11) assembly code.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5633 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 99 09:15:02 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <7qdpcj$98n$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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In article <37C9DABC.E020A403@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>"Carl R. Friend" wrote:
>> 
>> "Alan H. Martin" wrote, in article
>> nr. <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com>:
>> >
>> > [The DL-10] was the 10<=>11 "memory window" which attached the DC76.
>> 
>>    I don't know a whole lot about the DC76, but the DL-10 was a three
>> feet by three feet by six feet rack which supported a maximum of four
>> UNIBUS systems. They were "cool" devices.
>> 
>>    Didn't the DC76 attach directly somehow?
>
>As long as my memory is valid that the DL-10 was a 10<=>11 memory
>window, then that's what the DC76 used - KA-109 (BOCES/LIRICS) had a
>DC76, and I read the DC76's (-11) assembly code.

And note, Alan, that that was a customer site.  Customers 
cobbed together quite unusual configurations to suit themselves.
I don't remember how we attached comm gear to our systems.  
WEX should be able to tell you what we supported since that
was the area he was supposed to be working on.  RDH could
tell us more.  

I don't remember a DL being hung off a KA but I didn't usually
keep track of hardware since the cybercrud seemed to change
with the phase of a marketeer.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5644 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
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     <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com> <37C83DDB.4A3AF499@prescienttech.com>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>In article <37C9DABC.E020A403@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>>"Carl R. Friend" wrote:
>>> 
>>> "Alan H. Martin" wrote, in article
>>> nr. <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com>:
>>> >
>>> > [The DL-10] was the 10<=>11 "memory window" which attached the DC76.
>>> 
>>>    I don't know a whole lot about the DC76, but the DL-10 was a three
>>> feet by three feet by six feet rack which supported a maximum of four
>>> UNIBUS systems. They were "cool" devices.
>>> 
>>>    Didn't the DC76 attach directly somehow?
>>
>>As long as my memory is valid that the DL-10 was a 10<=>11 memory
>>window, then that's what the DC76 used 

Right.

>I don't remember a DL being hung off a KA but I didn't usually
>keep track of hardware since the cybercrud seemed to change
>with the phase of a marketeer.

It was.

On the discussion about -8 vs. -11 for KL10 console.  When that came
around, the PDP-8 comm gear was fading out and PDP-11s were de rigeur.
I made more sense to build a new KL10:PDP-11 interface to replace the
DL10 than to build a new PDP-8 interface.
--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5671 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:16:08 -0400
Organization: as little as possible!
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <37CDC1C8.A748BBCE@prescienttech.com>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com, in article nr.<7qdpcj$98n$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
wrote:
> 
> I don't remember a DL being hung off a KA but I didn't usually
> keep track of hardware since the cybercrud seemed to change
> with the phase of a marketeer.

   Oh, DL-10s got hung of KA-10s, believe me. When ADPNS had a presence
in Waltham we had a pair of KA-10s which were used as fast comms
controllers which each had a pair of DL-10s attached to them.

   The main systems "talked" to the KAs through shared memory, the
KAs "talked" to the -11s through the DLs, and the -11s "talked"
to the remote customer, frequently through another -11. It was a
very elegant solution at the time -- and fast as the blazes for some
stuff.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 5635 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:43:17 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:13:32 -0400,  "Alan H. Martin"
<AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:

| "Carl R. Friend" wrote:
| > 
| > "Alan H. Martin" wrote, in article
| > nr. <37C82C24.12BFCF54@MA.UltraNet.Com>:
| > >
| > > [The DL-10] was the 10<=>11 "memory window" which attached the DC76.
| > 
| >    I don't know a whole lot about the DC76, but the DL-10 was a three
| > feet by three feet by six feet rack which supported a maximum of four
| > UNIBUS systems. They were "cool" devices.
| > 
| >    Didn't the DC76 attach directly somehow?
| 
| As long as my memory is valid that the DL-10 was a 10<=>11 memory
| window, then that's what the DC76 used - KA-109 (BOCES/LIRICS) had a
| DC76, and I read the DC76's (-11) assembly code.
| 				/AHM

Dorry, but the LIRICS KA-10 used a DCA-680 based on the PDP/8-I formerly known
as ICC or "Chiquita" after the banana logo that hung on it when it was in a
storefront in 1969-1970

The KA-10 had *no* PDP-11/Unibus peripherals from the time of its installation
through its unfortunate and misguided decommissioning. It had eight DECTape
drives, four Memorex 2Meg disk drives, a DEC swapping drum, TU-10 magtape and
lots of core, all tied to the standard KA-10 bus system.

The later LIRICS  KL-10s (PDP-20s) were another matter Red, White, Blue and
Yellow each had a small PDP-11 front end.

							dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 5646 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:42:10 -0400
Lines: 18
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"David M. Razler" wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:13:32 -0400,  "Alan H. Martin"
> <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
...
> | As long as my memory is valid that the DL-10 was a 10<=>11 memory
> | window, then that's what the DC76 used - KA-109 (BOCES/LIRICS) had a
> | DC76, and I read the DC76's (-11) assembly code.
> |                               /AHM
> 
> Dorry, but the LIRICS KA-10 used a DCA-680 based on the PDP/8-I formerly known
> as ICC or "Chiquita" after the banana logo that hung on it when it was in a
> storefront in 1969-1970

Sorry, make that BOCES/*NCODE*.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5638 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <37BD3009.7CF7F12C@voicenet.com> <ALDERSON.99Aug20123139@netcom10.netcom.com> <37BED3F6.9EC3C84B@voicenet.com> <ALDERSON.99Aug23120804@netcom16.netcom.com> <37C28ABE.3661EAAD@voicenet.com> <7pu4le$dfl$4@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7pvq0e$t88@dfw-ixnews17.ix.netcom.com> <37c4576e.0@news.kivex.com> <37C7EEB2.23654470@prescienttech.com> <37C81999.BE194825@erols.com>
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:07:45 -0400
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Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com> wrote in message
news:37C81999.BE194825@erols.com...
> I think I can shed some light on this, probably not the whole picture.
>
> "Carl R. Friend" wrote:
> >
> >    In a way, I'm surprised that DEC didn't use an -8 as the front-
> > end to the KL. An 8A (if they existed at the time) would have made
> > a good choice unless they needed the -11's address space. Does any-
> > body know why the choice of the 11/40 was made?
> Dave McClure had done the comm stuff using the 8/e based comms
> capabilities to replace the old 8i based stuff. I think Dave lurks here,
> I am suffering a senior moment and can't recall that comm project using
> the /e, DP8/e, KG8-ea, and some other bits.

It was expected that the KL-10 FE would have full diagnostic capabilities,
including the ability to use (by buss sharing) the KL-10 primary hard drive.
It was a design requirement that the FE be able to run these diagnostics
even
(especially?) if the KL was stone cold dead. Since lots of mbs of
diagnostics
were expected, that required something bigger than a floppy. In addition,
the
-FE had to be able to read/write the -10 boot device. Nobody really wanted
to write new drivers for the large hard drives.

It was considered easier to build good I/O devices and drivers for
the -11, and it was much easier to get diagnostics for them (the group of
sophisticated
-8 people at DEC was shrinking). The powers that beed wanted the KL10
diagnostics to run like the VAX/-11 diagnostics, because more field service
folk
were familiar with the -11 style. So that counted, and the FS group put an
experienced FS person who knew both architectures (Roland Belanger)
in the software design loop. So the cost of the FE CPU was really a very
insignificant part of the decision process..

After the -FE had been chosen, the purists insisted that the -11 FE run a
pure DEC realtime operating system. Well, the only good one around at
the time was RSTS, but it wasn't politically popular, so a mixed system
was created called RSX-20F, which pretended to be RSX-11 (some
parts of it actually were). By the time it was cobbled together, people
worried that it was getting pretty big, so an 11/40 looked like a safe
choice.

The lack of switches had nothing to do with it, since it was never expected
that they'd be used for anything. A group was imported from -11 land into
LCG, headed by "Bugsy" McLean (I may be spelling his last name wrong) to
do the initial software.

> The DECComm-11 group was charged to create all the comm stuff = with Tom
> Stockebrand and then Vince Bastiani leading the group.  8's, with the
> MSB number properly just like the 10, were considered passe.  even tho
> every single machine that could be built on the 8 lines was sold every
> year.  Rueters kept coming in and buying rather large quantities.
>

Memories may differ...

>
> Don't forget about the dragon and hydra efforts - the attempts to merge
> the 10 and 11 capabilities that really fueled the concept called Vax.
> The KL really spurred some research into an ECL 11, but the realization
> that the 16bit word length and the limited address space, manufacturing
> costs of the beast, and truly - market conditions  - we did have a bit
> of a turn down a couple of times in the 70s  - kind of
>

Again memories differ. There just wasn't much of an effort below the VP
level to merge the two CPU architectures, although there was very much an
effort to merge the peripheral architecture (hence OMNIBUS and its friends).
And there were sporadic efforts to integrate networking (which is an
entirely
different set of flame wars), and to provide remote file sharing services.

Basically, the world was divided into two camps. The first followed the
Gordon
Bell philosophy that there should be a happy family of machines with
wordlengths
based on powers of two and with software designed by the pure of heart and
goto-less of mind. The other group thought that the native machine language
was
important because really fast routines had to be hand-coded, and the quicker
the
code the better. Their hearts weren't pure and their minds were filled with
goto's
(how many kinds can you name on the KL-10?).

So as I remember it, the choice of -FE was very much an engineering choice
and
not driven by politics. But then, at that time I wasn't much involved in the
politics... so
I may have missed it.






Article 5673 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: what ever happened to toad 1
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:15:36 -0400
Organization: as little as possible!
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Phil Gagner, in article nr. <37cad5f1.0@news.kivex.com>, wrote:
> 
> It was expected that the KL-10 FE would have full diagnostic
> capabilities, including the ability to use (by buss sharing) the
> KL-10 primary hard drive.

   I'd like to thank everybody who commented on that last brain-fart
of mine (of having an -8 as the KL's front-end) for clearing up quite
a bit of mystery surrounding the choice of the 11/40.

   One of the bits I'd forgotten was that the -11 wasn't _just_ for
spoon-feeding the KL its brains at power-on (and tickling it when it
was sick) but was also expected to play a part in day-to-day operation
of the system by supporting comms lines and such. I'd conveniently
forgotten about that capability since I'd never seen anything other
than the console TTY and diagnostic bits like DECtape and an RP04/6
wired to the -11.

   Also, as the KL never was a favourite of mine, I probably slept
through one too many classes.... (I always preferred the KI -- they
had character.)

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 5700 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Charles Richmond <richmond@plano.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 01:41:54 +0000
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <37D078E3.453489B2@plano.net>
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep2103848@netcom16.netcom.com> <7qpco9$l8o$1@null.agames.com>
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Mike Albaugh wrote:
> 
> Richard M. Alderson III (alderson@netcom16.netcom.com) wrote:
> : In article <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> tom@automatedtech.com
> : (Tom Hickerson) writes:
> 
> : >Did I hear somewhere that Bill Gates original work for the 8008 (or 4004) was
> : >done on a PDP -8 ?
> 
> : You might have heard it somewhere--I can't say--but if you heard it, it would
> : be wrong.
> 
> : Both Gates and Allen were PDP-10 programmers at an early age, although Allen
> : did try to write an 8008 simulator on the Washington State System/360 at one
> : point.
> 
>         Did Gates do anything with the 8008? I wrote an 8008 native assembler
> using MACRO on a PDP-6 for "bootstrapping", and the MicroSoft Basic sources
> sure look like they had a similar genesis. I thought Gates started out with
> the 8080, though.
> 
Check out the interview that a guy from the Smithsonian had with Bill Gates at:

		http://innovate.si.edu/history/gates/gatestoc.htm

In the interview, he says that they used the 8008 in their Traf-O-Data system.
He says that the 8008 was too weak to do BASIC, and he wanted to do a BASIC
system like on the PDP-8 that he used before.

Personally, I liked the Seymour Cray interview much more.  It is at:

		http://innovate.si.edu/history/cray/cray.htm

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


Article 5687 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: kuno@kuno.de (Kuno Kunhardt)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: PDP-Computermuseum
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:42:00 GMT
Organization: Kunhardt Computer, Germany^
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Hi


at Sept.7.1999 we will open our computer-museum based on DEC-products

The museum is located in Germany, D-25524 Itzehoe, IZET

We have:
PDP 9
PDP 10
PDP 11/20
PDP 8I
PDP lab8E
PDP 11/05, 11/23, 11/34, 11/40, 11/44, 11/45 
and some VAX-Computer

visit us at : http://www.kuno.de/steinburg/museum.htm


Kuno Kunhardt





Article 5735 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Charles Richmond <richmond@plano.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 02:18:00 +0000
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <37D32458.7CECFD88@plano.net>
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <7qpco9$l8o$1@null.agames.com> <7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <u281zceygck.fsf@sidewalker.sics.se> <37d13973.0@news.wizvax.net>
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John Wilson wrote:
> 
> In article <u281zceygck.fsf@sidewalker.sics.se>,
> Mikael Cardell  <mc@hack.org> wrote:
> >Hence, you cannot judge the programming abilities of Allen nor Gates
> >by looking at MS-DOS.
> 
> No, but you can judge them by looking at MBASIC-80...  I'd feel a lot
> better about that if it's true that they were thinking of a PDP-8 BASIC
> (EDUSystem-50 maybe?  which isn't even full Dartmouth BASIC, the amazing
> thing about it was that it ran in 4 KW), because if they were trying to
> pattern it after a *nice* BASIC, they failed.
> 
> I'd certainly be curious to here what if any PDP-10 code they wrote.
> I thought they used 10s just for cross-assembly of 8080 code (which seems
> like a teeny bit of overkill!).
> 
According to the Bill Gates interview conducted by the Smithsonian, Paul Allen
wrote Macro-10 macroes to get the 8080 assembly language assembled.  He also
wrote an 8080 emulator in Macro-10 so they could test the code for Altair BASIC.
Paul also (according to Gates) did something to DDT on the -10 to allow it to
understand the assembly macroes.

Anyone who wants more info should look at the interview at:

		http://innovate.si.edu/history/gates/gatestoc.htm

The section titled "Writing an Altair Basic" discusses this part.

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


Article 5731 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep2103848@netcom16.netcom.com>
     <7qpco9$l8o$1@null.agames.com> <7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>I don't remember Harvard being a customer.  I would suspect
>that he never did TOPS10 I/O using MACRO-10.  And, based on
>the philosophy of this crap I use, I would suspect COBOL
>rather than Fortran.

Harvard most definitely was a customer.  They also had PDP-1s, and gave
me a programming manual for it.

Harvard was also on the ARPAnet early on and CMU ported their code
before I graduated and took over the ARPAnet code.  As the
replacements for the "old" telnet and FTP protocols appeared, I did
the client side at CMU and Ed Taft did the server side at Harvard.

Ed was also the author of the TULIP I/O package.  I came up with the
name, documentation and got it into DECUS.  Ed had called it the
futility package (for file utility), and I thought it deserved better.

Eventually Ed went to Xerox PARC and I went to DEC.  I remember one
night at DEC logged into Harv-10 when Ed and I were helping someone
at Rutgers getting the 3rd TOPS-10 site running on the ARPAnet.  The
biggest problem was that he had a KI and some of the code had to change
due to page map issues.

	-Ric Werme
--
Ric Werme                  | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme
werme@nospam.mediaone.net  | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme
      ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 5747 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
Date: 07 Sep 1999 23:49:05 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 16
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	<7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <u281zceygck.fsf@sidewalker.sics.se>
	<37d13973.0@news.wizvax.net> <54k8q6o2pa.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>
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In-reply-to: Bill Westfield's message of 04 Sep 1999 13:13:05 -0700
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:3245 alt.sys.pdp10:5747

In article <54k8q6o2pa.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> Bill Westfield
<billw@flipper.cisco.com> writes:

>Didn't they use the PDP10 at Harvard or somesuch?  And I thought they wrote
>the cross-assembler as a set of macros for macro-10 (which is pretty easy - I
>did one too.)

They used the Harvard -10 for the Altair project, if I remember correctly.
According to what I have to consider a reliable source (PA himself), they used
-10's and -20's at Microsoft as development platforms for quite a long time.
They hired several LOTS students on the strength of their Tops-20 programming
exposure in the mid-80's.

Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 5762 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!sarr
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7qsnv9$kbl@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> <7qtgn9$6nq$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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In article <7qtgn9$6nq$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>I don't remember Harvard being a customer.

In 72-73 or so, every release of MACRO-10 was greeted by a flurry of SPRs from
Harvard.  Specifically from Ed Taft (now at PARC?), who liked to do really
{hairy, cute, ...} macros.

-- 
--------
Sarr Blumson                    sarr@umich.edu
voice: +1 734 764 0253          home: +1 734 665 9591
ITD, University of Michigan     http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/


Article 5764 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 99 07:39:41 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <TpDB3.604$u73.117340@news.itd.umich.edu>,
   sarr@stick.us.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) wrote:
>In article <7qtgn9$6nq$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>I don't remember Harvard being a customer.
>
>In 72-73 or so, every release of MACRO-10 was greeted by a flurry of SPRs 
from
>Harvard.  Specifically from Ed Taft (now at PARC?), who liked to do really
>{hairy, cute, ...} macros.
>
I didn't do work that dealt with customers until 75 or so.  That
name is vaguely familiar.  Story time....

Whenever JMF wrote macros (I remember some effort for the monitor
and he wrote the macros for my accounting project), he would
work and work and work on them.  Invariably, he would throw up
his hands, take a walk over to Nixon's office, and then Dave
would be debugging for at least a week.  There was definitely
an art to writing those things :-).

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5745 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
Date: 07 Sep 1999 23:43:35 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Sep7164335@netcom16.netcom.com>
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com>
	<ALDERSON.99Sep2103848@netcom16.netcom.com>
	<7qpco9$l8o$1@null.agames.com> <7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:3243 alt.sys.pdp10:5745

In article <7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>What kind of PDP-10 programming did those guys do?  It's obvious from how this
>#%$@ DOS system works, that they didn't do any monitor programming....and
>probably no CUSP-type programming.  I don't believe they ever wrote a single
>I/O routine that depended on buffer mode I/O.

Dunno, wasn't there.

By the time they bought QDOS from Seattle Computer (I think I remember that
name correctly), Gates wasn't doing any day-to-day programming, and I doubt
that Allen was, either.

The impression I've gotten from a conservation with Paul Allen is that he did
real PDP-10 programming on a job he had before Microsoft, but it may not have
been up to your high standards, Barb.

Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 5801 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bill Gates and PDP-8
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:44:31 -0400
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Message-ID: <37DB138F.8E995A6E@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <ALDERSON.99Sep2103848@netcom16.netcom.com> <7qpco9$l8o$1@null.agames.com> <7qqqn4$c1q$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7qsnv9$kbl@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> <7qtgn9$6nq$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <7qsnv9$kbl@nnrp2.farm.idt.net>,
>    "Chris Ward" <ccw@idt.net> wrote:
> >Gates (at least) was at Harvard for three years, and cut his teeth
> >on the PDP-10 there.  ...
>
> I don't remember Harvard being a customer.  ...

KA #6, to be specific.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 5949 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy & the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for Card Reader: DEC CR11 or CM11
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:34:27 -0400
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <37ED6A13.3681A92B@erols.com>
References: <7sg6ge$be7$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <7si9nu$4hm$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <37ED3C05.F4688BA2@srv.net>
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Kevin Handy wrote:
> 
> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <7sg6ge$be7$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>,
> >    mcquiggi@sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) wrote:
> > >Hi Gang:
> > >
> > >I'm interested in finding a card reader for my pdp-11 machines. There was
> > one advertised as available earlier this week, unfortunately it has been
> > claimed.
> > >
> > >The CR11 and CM11 models are what I'm looking for - they're a desktop
> > variety that would work nicely with my current machines.
> > >
> > >Anyone out there have one they will part with?
> >
> > A card reader on a PDP-11?  Oh, never mind, I just remembered
> > front ends.  :-))
> 
> Actually my high school used cards (and a PDP-11) to track attendence.
> The teachers would send in the cards of absent students to be run
> through the card reader, then the cards were returned back to the
> teachers.
The CR and what was it CM, were first done on the 8/e. John McNamara - I
think, could be wrong - was the project engineer. I think John did the
interface design, and I got to make the optical and the pin versions to
work properly.  There was a minor problem with the power supply in the
readers, we used to be able to get them to read cards with AC line
noise.

We - well a couple of us - worked out a scheme to drive new england
telephone crazy with those beasts...
It is amazing what happened to the readers when you put just a little
butter on the old punch card telephone bill....
bad bob


Article 6046 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!206.214.99.8!alderson
From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: anyone remember/know of Yale editor 'E' (1970s)?
Date: 05 Oct 1999 00:22:27 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Oct4172227@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <op4sg8johf.fsf@candle.superlink.net>
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In-reply-to: David Alan Black's message of 03 Oct 1999 14:19:56 -0400
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6046

In article <op4sg8johf.fsf@candle.superlink.net> David Alan Black
<dblack@candle.superlink.net> writes:

>Back in the early 1970s, the '10 at Yale ran an editor called 'E'.

Hmm.  Is this any relation to the SAIL editor called E?  I know that the code
in the monitor supporting E was ported to Tops-10 at some point.

Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 6056 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Subject: Re: GT40 (was Re: How did ZX81s work?)
From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
References: <7tcs1p$72c$1@gxsn.com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:141410 alt.sys.pdp8:3523 alt.sys.pdp11:5968 alt.sys.pdp10:6056

From article <7tcs1p$72c$1@gxsn.com>, by "Peter Pachla" <my.name@wintermute.org.uk>:
> 
> But seriously, are GT40s really all that hard to find?
> 

There pretty tough to find now, given that they are around 25 years old.

MUCH tougher, though, is the second-generation DEC VS60. I've owned several
VT11's, but I've never even SEEN a VS60. At one point I had the VS60 print
set, pretty sophisticated vector generator. Not ever been at DEC, I've wondered
who bought them, or if they were used with SUDS.

> I've harboured a desire to get one every since I discovered their existence in
> an old DEC handbook a couple of years back. I've put out 2 or 3 requests for
> one over the past 18 months or so and gotten no replies.
> 
> Any pointers/suggestions?
> 

There are still a few around, but I doubt they're for sale. Eric Smith just
showed his GT40 at the Vintage Computer Fair. At this point, a simulator seems
the only way that most folks will ever see this device in operation.



Article 6040 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: How did ZX81s work?
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 15:23:19 GMT
Message-ID: <37f8c629.1634287441@192.168.0.1>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <37F2BE86.6EBB94A6@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <7svofq$eaf@web.nmti.com> <021019991332529710%scottm25@bigfoot.com> <37f726d5$0$211@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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On 03 Oct 1999 09:50:13 GMT, inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:

>Ob PDP-10: Remember when TOPS-10 had the useless feature of "SET TTY
>DISPLAY"? ...
>
>Programs could be downloaded into the GT40's memory by sending an escape
>sequence and 6-bit data from the PDP-10.  Or any other device capable of
>sending about 100Kbytes of data through a serial port.  Including a
>Palm Pilot.

Wasn't that the technique used on some MS/DOS sw to establish a link
between a portable (3.5" disk) and a desktop (5 1/4" disk only, at
that time)?

Scott
-- 
(please de-mung address if replying by email)


Article 6093 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <7r8fs4$a3j@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7rdj6n$6g6$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <7rgb0n$4l6@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <37ded9c2$0$218@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ujbco$rv6$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
Subject: Re: (PDP-10 executable file types) (fortran)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:42:45 -0400
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6093

I'm posting this exchange at the suggestion of /BAH, prefacing it with
the comment that it's from the vaguely cloudy times long past of
a universe far far away...


>[from PAG]
>I have a vague memory that at one time the sources for PIP
>disappeared and it wasn't rebuilt for the release tapes.
>At least I think it was PIP. Do you recall this? (It's
>so far down in memory that it may well be some other CUSP.)

[from /BAH]
Was this a long, long time ago?  Like when we were still in
the Mill?  I remember a story that a source was gone (I'd
have to look at MAC files to find it so somebody took the
SAV and typed in the equivalent MACRO.  At least, that
was the explanation for the gag-awful code format :-).

Post it on the PDP10; maybe Bob Clements will contribute :-).
He's about the only one (other than John Everett) who goes back
that far.  Or would you like me to post the question?
------------------------------

[Remainder from PAG]

Now that /BAH mentions it, I remember someone (maybe Tony)
suggesting that we decompile the executable and write a new
source from it. The only scenario in which I could believe that
was actually done was if some management nitwit ordered
that ALL code had to be compiled from MACRO sources.

<Brief aside from PAG>
It happened that at that time that there was this certain
management nitwit who might have actually ordered such a
thing ... names will be withheld because he may have improved
over the years, but some of you might remember him... he didn't
last long in LCG and was bubbly with enthusiasm and had taken
a degree in computer engineering management-- one of the first
such awarded (for people whom it hurt to think). Ultimately
Valdeane Alusic and I and a few others (about everyone who'd
dealt with him) conspired to get him promoted into some marketing
position in smallcomputerland.
</End of brief aside>

Anyway, to return to the sourceless CUSP, I vaguely remember it
as something with lots of "bugs" for which people had found
workarounds over the years and which therefore couldn't be corrected
in a new version without breaking lots of other stuff (like batch files). So
PIP comes to mind as the likely candidate. It might, on reflection, have
been
a particular *version* of PIP which did something peculiar for a certain
discontinued or unsupported device.

Footnote: For those of you who don't admit to going back that
far (or whose memories have different fade spots), PIP
was "Peripheral Interchange Program" and did basically what
cat does in Un*x (copy data from one place to another). It had a
fair number of strange and sometimes documented behaviors, sometimes
controlled by switches.




Article 6109 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: (PDP-10 executable file types) (fortran)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:56:57 -0400
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Peter da Silva wrote:
> 
> In article <3810852f.0@news.kivex.com>, Phil Gagner <gagner@svg-law.com> wrote:
> >Footnote: For those of you who don't admit to going back that
> >far (or whose memories have different fade spots), PIP
> >was "Peripheral Interchange Program" and did basically what
> >cat does in Un*x (copy data from one place to another). It had a
> >fair number of strange and sometimes documented behaviors, sometimes
> >controlled by switches.
> 
> On RSX-11 it did just about any random file command you could think of:
> copy files, delete files, rename files, purge old versions.
> 
> Was it like that in TOPS? ...

See PIP.HLP below.
				/AHM
"
Local File Transfer Using PIP

Function

The PIP program transfers files between standard I/O  devices  at  the
local system.  It can perform simple editing and magnetic tape control
operations during transfer operations.


Format

     R PIP
     * output file-spec(s)/switches = input file-spec(s)/switches

where:  * is the PIP prompt; output file-spec and input file-spec  are
        file specifications which may include wildcards; and = (equals
        sign) separates the output from the  input  files.   You  must
        include this, even if you omit either file specification.

/switch  is  one  or  more  of  the  options  described  below.   Each
description  includes  any  restrictions on combining that switch with
other switches.

Switch      Meaning

/A          Does not split lines between output buffers;  starts  each
            line with a new word.  Used for FORTRAN ASCII input.  This
            switch may be used with /C, /E, /G, /M, /N,  /O,  /Q,  /S,
            /V, and /Z.

/B          Copies in binary mode.  This switch is legal with /G,  /M,
            /P, /Q, and /X.

/C          Deletes trailing spaces and converts  multiple  spaces  to
            tabs.   You  can  use this switch with /A, /E, /G, /J, /M,
            /N, /O, /Q, /S, /T, /V, /W, /X, and /Z.

/D          Deletes one or more files  from  the  destination  device.
            You  can  only specify a destination device in the command
            string.  You may use the /X switch with /D.

/E          For card reader input, ignores card sequence numbers.   In
            other  words,  this  switch replaces characters in columns
            73-80 with spaces.  This switch can be used with  the  /A,
            /C, /G, /J, /M, /N, /O, /Q, /S, /X, and /Z switches.

/F          Gives a limited (fast) version of the  directory  for  the
            specified device.  You may not use any other switches with
            this one.

/G          Ignores I/O errors and continue processing  after  issuing
            an error message.  This switch is always legal.

/H          Copies in image binary mode.  You can use /H with /G,  /M,
            /X, and /Z.

/I          Copies in image mode.  You can use this  switch  with  /G,
            /M, /X, and /Z.

/J          Converts    non-printing     control     characters     to
            control-character  format  for  terminal output.  That is,
            001, <CTRL/A>, is output as ^A.  /A, /C, /E, /M,  /W,  and
            /X are permitted with this switch.

/L          Lists the directory for the  specified  device.   You  may
            only use /Z with this switch.

(Mx)        Magnetic tape switches, enclosed in parentheses.  They are
            listed  below.   You  may  not use /D, /F, or /U with this
            switch.

            Switch         Meaning

            (M8)           800 bpi density (default value)
            (M5)           556 bpi density
            (M2)           200 bpi density
            (ME)           Even parity (odd parity is default)
            (M#nA)         Advance tape  reel  n  files.   #n  omitted
                           means one file.
            (M#nB)         Backspace tape reel n  files.   #n  omitted
                           means one file.
            (M#nD)         Advance tape reel n  records.   #n  omitted
                           means one record.
            (M#nP)         Backspace tape reel n records.  #n  omitted
                           means one record.
            (MW)           Rewind tape reel.
            (MT)           Skip to logical end-of-tape.
            (MU)           Rewind and unload.
            (MF)           Mark end-of-file.

/N          Deletes line sequence numbers from an ASCII file.  If  tab
            follows  the  sequence  number, deletes the tab also.  You
            may use /A, /C, /E, /G, /M,  /Q,  /X,  and  /Z  with  this
            switch.

/O          Resequences or adds line  sequence  numbers  to  an  ASCII
            file,  incrementing by 1.  You may use /A, /C, /E, /G, /M,
            /X, and /Z with this switch.

/P          Converts  FORTRAN  format  control  characters  for   line
            printer listing.  You may use /B and /Z with this switch.

/Q          Lists a summary of switches on the specified device.   You
            may not use /Q with /D, /F, /R, and /V.

/R          Renames the source file to the  name  of  the  destination
            file.  /X may be used with /R.

/S          Resequences or adds line  sequence  numbers  to  an  ASCII
            file,  incrementing  by  10.   /A,  /C, /T, and /Z are all
            valid with /S.

/T          Deletes trailing spaces from the transferred file.   Keeps
            one  space  and  the line termintor for an all-space line.
            You may use /C, /S, and /Z with this switch.

/U          Obsolete.

/V          Matches angle brackets.  If there is  an  unmatched  angle
            bracket, creates a file listing those lines with unmatched
            angle brackets.  You may use /G, /M, and /Z with /V.

/W          Converts tabs to spaces.  /C and /Z are  legal  with  this
            switch.

/X and /DX  Copies  the  specified  files  without  concatenating  the
            files.   /DX  copies  all but the specified files.  If you
            omit the /X  switch,  PIP  concatenates  the  files  while
            copying.  You may not use /F or /L with this switch.

/Y          Obsolete.

/Z          Zeroes the  directory  of  the  destination  device.   PIP
            attempts  to  delete all the files named in the directory,
            depending on the protection codes.  You may not  use  this
            switch with /D or /R.

PIP can transfer files in either ASCII or binary mode.  PIP  uses  the
file  extension  in  the file specification to determine which mode to
use.  Whenever possible, PIP transfers files in a binary mode since it
is faster.  The binary modes are:  binary, image, and image binary.

PIP performs a specific series of tests on a file extension  in  order
to  determine  the mode to use during a transfer operation.  PIP looks
for:

      o  The presence of a data mode switch.  If no switch  is  found,
         PIP goes to the next test.

      o  The presence  of  a  known  (standard)  file  extension  that
         specifies a binary mode of transfer.  If no binary extensions
         are found, PIP goes to the next test.

      o  The input and the output devices specified, to  determine  if
         they  are  capable of handling binary data.  If either of the
         devices cannot handle binary, the transfer is made  in  ASCII
         mode.   If  both  devices can handle binary data, PIP goes to
         the next test.

      o  The presence of the /X switch in the command string; if it is
         found,  the  transfer is made in binary mode.  If an X option
         is not found, PIP goes to the next test.

      o  The  presence  of  commas  (non-delimiters)  in  the  command
         string;  if commas are found, ASCII mode is indicated.  If no
         commas are found, the transfer is made in binary mode.


Characteristics

The PIP program:

     Requires LOGIN.

     Destroys your core image.

     Places your terminal at user level.


Examples

     1.  Run PIP, and list your directory on your terminal.

              .R PIP
              *TTY:/L=

     2.  Transfer files from area [11,7]  to  your  directory  without
         concatenation.

              *DSK:/X=DSK:[11,7]filea.rel,filea.mac

     3.  Combine all the files on the tape on MTA0:  into one file  in
         your directory.

              *DSK:TAPE.MAC=MTA0:*

     4.  Rename the file MONI.MAC to MONI.CBL

              *DSK:MONI.CBL/R=MONI.MAC

     5.  Change the directory access code of [57,123] to <222>.

              *DSKA:[57,123].UFD<222>/R=[57,123].UFD

     6.  Transfer a file from MTA1:  to MTA2:  at 200  bpi  with  even
         parity.

              *MTA2:(M2E)=MTA1:(ME2)

     7.  Backspace MTA0:  to the start of the previous file.  (MB)  is
         equivalent to (M#1B).

              *MTA0:(MB)=

     8.  Backspace MTA2:  to the start of the current file.

              *MTA2:(M#0B)=
"
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 6100 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d10
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: (PDP-10 executable file types) (fortran)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 08:34:13 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <7us3nm$8on$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <7r8fs4$a3j@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7rdj6n$6g6$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <7rgb0n$4l6@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <37ded9c2$0$218@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ujbco$rv6$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <3810852f.0@news.kivex.com>
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In article <3810852f.0@news.kivex.com>,
   "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com> wrote:
<snip>

>
>Anyway, to return to the sourceless CUSP, I vaguely remember it
>as something with lots of "bugs" for which people had found
>workarounds over the years and which therefore couldn't be corrected
>in a new version without breaking lots of other stuff (like batch files). 
>So
>PIP comes to mind as the likely candidate. It might, on reflection, have
>been
>a particular *version* of PIP which did something peculiar for a certain
>discontinued or unsupported device.
<snip>

I don't see how PIP could mess up batch files.  By the time
there was a batch, Pete Conklin had started his coding 
standard, I think.  John?  When did that memo come out 
that talked about using symbols instead of number for AC
assignments, etc. 

I had forgotten that Valdeane was around.  Perhaps somebody
could nudge her to read this particular thread?  <hint, hint> :-)

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 6102 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: (PDP-10 executable file types) (fortran)
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit)
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6102

In article <7us3nm$8on$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>I don't see how PIP could mess up batch files.  By the time
>there was a batch, Pete Conklin had started his coding 
>standard, I think.  John?  When did that memo come out 
>that talked about using symbols instead of number for AC
>assignments, etc. 

I think you're referring to LEVELD.MEM (written by Tom Hastings), which 
defined the coding standards to be used in the creation of the Level-D monitor 
(4S72 to 5.01 transition). Monitor AC usage was rationalized during this 
transition by (if memory serves) Don Black. Prior to Level-D, ACs weren't 
necessarily referred to by number, but the names weren't consistant across 
modules. If I rack my brain enough I can probably come up with most of the old 
names, but off the top of my head I recall PDP, TAC, TAC1, DDB, etc. As to the 
date of the memo, I'm guessing 1969 or 1970.

>I had forgotten that Valdeane was around.  Perhaps somebody
>could nudge her to read this particular thread?  <hint, hint> :-)

I had forgotten the lovely Valdeane entirely. Hadn't thought of her in perhaps 
twenty-plus years, but seeing her name in this thread brought back all kinds 
of memories. Is she really still around somewhere? It's pretty amazing how the 
brain works. Thinking about Valdeane brings back all kinds of other names and 
faces from that era, also people I haven't thought about in lo these many 
years. 

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 6097 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!mbg
From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: (PDP-10 executable file types) (fortran)
Message-ID: <FK1B39.AEs@world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:33:08 GMT
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <7ujbco$rv6$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7uk3h0$i0l$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <380DC9D8.AEC17D77@erols.com> <380e6e68$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7umt0a$e0p$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <FJzLA7.3w8@world.std.com> <7upb
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 43
Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6097

jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>But you did do DECnet.  And that was bliss in disguise no
>matter how it was built.

We (the RT-11 development team) did not do DECnet... that was
another group.  And the version for RT-11 was most certainly
not BLISS... I was part of a group which looked at the feasability
of getting DECnet/RT up to Phase IV/Ethernet... it was most
certainly MACRO-11...

>There were lots of consequences.  Do a cost analysis of 
>development.  Look at the customer price lists.  Look at
>the number of people needed to do a simple development 
>task and then take a look at the infrastructure required
>to maintain it.

Excuse me?  There wasn't even a reasonable BLISS for RT-11
at the time (was there ever?)  It required cross-compilation
on something like a VAX...

Although we did use an RSX system (and even a VMS system)
to do base-level builds of RT-11... we didn't *have* to...
We could built it on RT-11 running on an -11.  We couldn't
have done that if we did it with BLISS...

So I remember many of us simply ignored the BLISS issue,
saying that if they ever got a BLISS which ran on RT-11
that we could use for a real build, we'd reconsider it,
but not until.

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



Article 6112 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d16
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bootleg projects?
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 11:22:50 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <7v4aol$38$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <3811DDCD.97D38C2B@erols.com>
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In article <3811DDCD.97D38C2B@erols.com>,
   Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy & the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com> wrote:

>How about a thread on all the bootleg projects?

Offhand, I'd say that any software project was a bootleg
project.

>This group has reminded me how much fun I had in my early days at DEC.
>I joined in Jan 69. Badge 6387. Got to harrass Don White, Vic Ku,
>Kent, Kotok, Hastings, and a few of you on this list.

Vic Ku was around back then?  I don't remember him.  What
building was his office in?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 6116 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d9
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bootleg projects?
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 08:20:48 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <7v6kfl$m7a$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <3811DDCD.97D38C2B@erols.com> <7v4aol$38$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <38164EE5.15E59613@bellatlantic.net>
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In article <38164EE5.15E59613@bellatlantic.net>,
   Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy & the Tinker <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>Vic was in the mill, 5-5.

Where?  I sure don't remember seeing him until we were in Marlboro.


>Yep, I was thinking of certain SW projects....
>IBM Friend ring any bells?

Never heard of it.  FILDAE was a midnight hack.
SMP started out as a midnight hack.  A lot of the
DDT stuff was literally a midnight hack ('ey, Bob :-)).
RUNOFF was a midnight (I think 'ey, the other Bob :-)).
McComas' TECO work was a midnight hack (at least the
bugs we in Tape Prep needed fixes for were done in
his spare time).

Maybe we should define midnight hacks.  

/BAH


>bob
>
>
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <3811DDCD.97D38C2B@erols.com>,
>>    Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy & the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >How about a thread on all the bootleg projects?
>> 
>> Offhand, I'd say that any software project was a bootleg
>> project.
>> 
>> >This group has reminded me how much fun I had in my early days at DEC.
>> >I joined in Jan 69. Badge 6387. Got to harrass Don White, Vic Ku,
>> >Kent, Kotok, Hastings, and a few of you on this list.
>> 
>> Vic Ku was around back then?  I don't remember him.  What
>> building was his office in?


I really hate having this post presented upside-down.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 6118 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d9
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: (PDP-10 executable file types) (fortran)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 08:32:26 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <7v6l5f$m7a$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>
References: <37ce7e58.491364454@news.mindspring.com> <7r8fs4$a3j@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7rdj6n$6g6$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <7rgb0n$4l6@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <37ded9c2$0$218@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ujbco$rv6$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <3810852f.0@news.kivex.com> <7us3nm$8on$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <XrjQ3.13306$zp.7465@ord-read.news.verio.net>
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In article <XrjQ3.13306$zp.7465@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <7us3nm$8on$3@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>I don't see how PIP could mess up batch files.  By the time
>>there was a batch, Pete Conklin had started his coding 
>>standard, I think.  John?  When did that memo come out 
>>that talked about using symbols instead of number for AC
>>assignments, etc. 
>
>I think you're referring to LEVELD.MEM (written by Tom Hastings), which 
>defined the coding standards to be used in the creation of the Level-D 
monitor 
>(4S72 to 5.01 transition). Monitor AC usage was rationalized during this 
>transition by (if memory serves) Don Black. Prior to Level-D, ACs weren't 
>necessarily referred to by number, but the names weren't consistant across 
>modules. If I rack my brain enough I can probably come up with most of the 
old 
>names, but off the top of my head I recall PDP, TAC, TAC1, DDB, etc. As to 
the 
>date of the memo, I'm guessing 1969 or 1970.

There was that one.  But Conklin established another standard
(I don't remember seeing a memo, but I wouldn't have received
since I wasn't a programmer back then) for CUSPs.  It might
have been a side effect of this WILD and SCAN hacks.  Some
of the naming conventions (P instead of PDP for AC17) might
have been based on the Level D spec.  I sure wish I had
been dishonest and packed all that stuff away and brought
it home.  

>
>>I had forgotten that Valdeane was around.  Perhaps somebody
>>could nudge her to read this particular thread?  <hint, hint> :-)
>
>I had forgotten the lovely Valdeane entirely. Hadn't 
>thought of her in perhaps 
>twenty-plus years, but seeing her name in this thread 
>brought back all kinds 
>of memories. Is she really still around somewhere? 

Yup.  And I hear she's working with PDP10s :-).


>It's pretty amazing how the 
>brain works. Thinking about Valdeane brings back all 
>kinds of other names and 
>faces from that era, also people I haven't thought about 
>in lo these many years. 

And the stories.  After most of the people at TW's going
away party went home, a few of us stayed sitting at a
table.  TW and Pat White got together and just started talking
while reading the listing of DTASRX.  One comment in the
listing would remind TW of something; that would remind Pat
of something; that would remind TW of something.  And it
just went on and on.  It's one of the special times I
remember with great fondness [bittersweet emoticon here].


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 6172 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.tli.de!news-fra.pop.de!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Last release of TOPS-10 was...?
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:39:01 -0400
Organization: Trailing Edge Technology
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I'm sorting through some TOPS-10 distribution tapes, and I
see that 7.03, 7.03A, and 7.04 are all present in various mixes
of distributions/CUSPS/sources/monitors/tools/autopatch tapes.  Out of
curiosity, what *was* the last DEC release of TOPS-10?  If 7.04 was
the last, were there ever any autopatch releases for it?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd                 Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


Article 6175 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
From: pfarrell@netcom.com (Pat Farrell)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Database 1022 is this how it got its name?
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 04:34:50 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <817sii$jno$1@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <3830150B.4F55B514@nsw.garetech.com.au> <38304c2d_2@news.wizvax.net> <HUeY3.3101$tI2.60883@ord-read.news.verio.net>
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jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:

>In article <38304c2d_2@news.wizvax.net>, wilson@dbit.com says...
>>>If this isn't the reason for the name what is?
>>I thought it was that it ran on the ten, and twenty, too.
>Correct, at least according to Gene Sklaar who was Software House's marketing 
>manager. According to Gene, that's what Charlie Houseman told him.

Gene was kidding then. Or Charlie was kidding when he told Gene.

It was called System 1022 when I first started using it at First Data,
where Gene and John and I worked in the mid-seventies. 
For years, Software House was two guys, Charlie H. and Andy Garland.
It was originally written at night using borrowed or bartered time
from the FDC KA-10s. I can't remember when I started using it, but
it was the mainstay of FDC's govenment business by 75, well before
Tenex became renamed as Tops-20 and offered on the horrible 96KW
KL-20A's with core memory. (Late 77?). So the 20 part of
the name predated DecSystem-20 by a couple of years (unless
LCG could keep a secret for years -- nah...).

Gene also claimed that it was called 1022 because it first worked or
was sold, or demoed (depending on the story's version) on Oct 22.
Of course, while it was being named, Gene was a Macro-10 assembly
programmer at FDC, not a marketing dude building brand equity.

I believe it is true that their Vaxen product was called System 1032
because it was based on 1022 and ran on hated 32 bit machines.

Pat


Pat Farrell                           pfarrell@netcom.com
PGP key on the usual servers



Article 6179 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.shore.net!not-for-mail
From: smw@shell3.shore.net (Sam Weiner)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Last release of TOPS-10 was...?
Organization: Shore.net
Lines: 20
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Message-ID: <81f9v4$le2@shell3.shore.net>
References: <38341D95.645685A8@trailing-edge.com>
Date: 23 Nov 1999 19:02:44 -0500
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In article <38341D95.645685A8@trailing-edge.com>,
Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>I'm sorting through some TOPS-10 distribution tapes, and I
>see that 7.03, 7.03A, and 7.04 are all present in various mixes
>of distributions/CUSPS/sources/monitors/tools/autopatch tapes.  Out of
>curiosity, what *was* the last DEC release of TOPS-10?  If 7.04 was
>the last, were there ever any autopatch releases for it?

7.04 was the last release though 7.05 went out as either an Autopatch
or TSU tape.  I was involved more with TOPS-20 at the time so I
forget if it identified itself as 7.05 or if that was an internal
designation.

There were several Autopatch updates and 3 or 4 TSU tapes.  I also
have a patch or two which didn't make the last tape (LPTSPL or some
such as I recall.)  Details are buried somewhere for the moment.

Sam




Article 6181 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Saving old documentation
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:06:27 -0400
Organization: Trailing Edge Technology
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Pat Barron wrote:
> 
> So, I have a few old manuals:
> 
>     >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
>     >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
>        utilities and such;
>     >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
>        and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
>        KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
> 
> These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
> beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
> the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
> 
> Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
> have their disintegration slowed down)?  I'm inclined to try to scan them
> in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
> require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
> immediately.

Yeah, well, that's the rub.  Doug Jones wrote up his efforts to
preserve of PDP-8 paperbacks, and he begins:

  Once you have concluded that a paperback is beond repair,
  the first step in preserving its contents
  is to complete its destruction. Slice off the glued
  spine of the paperback so that the pages come
  apart as separate sheets. You can cut the sheets
  from the spine with an X-acto knife, or you can
  find a shop with a paper shear that will cut the spine loose.

Doug then goes into a very detailed step-by-step description of
producing an archival-quality duplicate of the original information.
For further details on Doug's efforts, see

  http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/

--
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd                 Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


Article 6186 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: David M. Razler <david.razler@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Saving old documentation
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:48:51 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 55
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Pat Barron <pat@transarc.com> wrote:

| So, I have a few old manuals:
| 
|     >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
|     >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
|        utilities and such;
|     >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
|        and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
|        KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
| 
| These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
| beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
| the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
| 
| Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
| have their disintegration slowed down)?  I'm inclined to try to scan them
| in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
| require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
| immediately.  Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods?
| 
| --Pat.

If you do not wish to gillutine the books and scan the pages, the alternative
is deacidification, specifically W'ei T'o liquid available from Light
Impressions and other museum supply companies.

The liquid, applied with any kind of airless sprayer system, loads a page with
a transparent alkali (usually a magnesium compound) that neutralizes current
acid levels and provides a buffer to neutralize further acids produced by
lignin breakdown.

The price is rather high, $40+ a pint, though the excess material can be
recycled if you use a spray booth, and a little goes a long way. Contact Light
Impressions at their 800-number (not in front of me this second) for further
details.

Basically, you spray each page with the minimum required to do the job, allow
the excess to drip off and recycle. I believe that real problems develop if
you use the immersion technique on multi-page documents.

Books can also be sent to mass-deacidification firms used by libraries, but
the cost is even higher than doing it yourself (The Library of Congress had a
really neat system for doing the job except it relied on a gas that ignited in
the presence of water vapor, requiring books to be placed in a vacuume
chamber, pumped down and the gas introduced and then removed. The program was
unfortunately scrubbed when the failure of the prototype system (gas removal
function) required the Navy to blow up the prototype in situ. If continued, it
would have reduced the proce to making a book capable of lasting two centuries
to $10 per volume.

					dmr

David M. Razler
david.razler@worldnet.att.net


Article 6209 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Dec10
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <FMK2Lr.9DB@world.std.com>, mbg@world.std.com says...
>
>inge@tarboo writes:
>
>>And another happy Dec10 from [101,113] on KA-10 SN 7
>
>Hear hear, happy DEC-10...  ([1000,14321] on the WPI KA-10, circa 1975)

And a belated one from [10,77] on System 2 (the development KA at DEC).

BTW, when I joined DEC I was assigned [16,23] on the PDP-6. When the -10 came 
along we got to pick our own Programmer Number to go with Project Number 10. 
TW picked [10,10], perhaps because he was at the time working on the 
(stillborn) 10/10 monitor.. I kind of liked [10,77] because it was easy to 
type and was the largest two digit Programmer Number available; octal, you 
know. :-) JMF joined DEC later and got assigned [10,675] if memory serves. Is 
this right, BAH?

It was pure serendipity that [10,77] later became a model number.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 6972 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: VIROS? And Primary Protocol.
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:42:52 -0500
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <38CBE52C.A21B839C@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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Ric Werme wrote:

> TENEX had to be renamed.  (Well, I don't know if it _had_ to be, but
> marketing secrecy essentially ruled here.)  VIROS was the original
> codename, I think.  The trade press got wind of it and the name was
> changed to SNARK.  ...  When SNARK
> escaped, we switched to KRANS (Snark spelled backward), but cooler heads
> managed to get it back to SNARK.

Cooler heads?  From what I hear, KRANS reverted to SNARK because
Ulf Fagerquist complained that KRANS meant "funeral wreath" in Swedish.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 6984 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: VIROS? And Primary Protocol.
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 00 09:52:16 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002212009220.6379-100000@bony.umtec.com> <qOHs4.2210$W92.46188@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <38CBE52C.A21B839C@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <38CBE52C.A21B839C@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>Ric Werme wrote:
>
>> TENEX had to be renamed.  (Well, I don't know if it _had_ to be, but
>> marketing secrecy essentially ruled here.)  VIROS was the original
>> codename, I think.  The trade press got wind of it and the name was
>> changed to SNARK.  ...  When SNARK
>> escaped, we switched to KRANS (Snark spelled backward), but cooler heads
>> managed to get it back to SNARK.
>
>Cooler heads?  From what I hear, KRANS reverted to SNARK because
>Ulf Fagerquist complained that KRANS meant "funeral wreath" in Swedish.

Sigh!  SNARK came before KRANS.  The reason more developer time
was spent on renaming SNARK was because the name tripped off the
lips of a customer.  If customers knew the secret code of
the developement effort, then it wasn't secret anymore.  I have
no idea why secrecy was such a high priority when non-disclosures
were being reissued left and right.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 6993 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002212009220.6379-100000@bony.umtec.com> <qOHs4.2210$W92.46188@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <38CBE52C.A21B839C@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6993

>
> Cooler heads?  From what I hear, KRANS reverted to SNARK because
> Ulf Fagerquist complained that KRANS meant "funeral wreath" in Swedish.

Does anyone remember the Hunting of the Snark party hosted
by Tim Stein, Valdeane Alusic, etc. on the 100th Anniversary
of the original publication date? I still have the invitation
for the party (an agony in 10 fits).

The highlight of the party was, of course, the ritual reading
of the entire hunting, from a first edition.

The book was published in 1876, so that the party was
(logically) in 1976. I know that in 1972 or so I began
putting quotes from The Hunting into comments in the
TOPS-10 monitor sources and into code and documentation
in varous DEC utilities I was forced (um, urged) to maintain later,
and we heavily sprinkled them throughout the TYPESET-10 sources
and documentation, starting in 1972.

The original comment on the keep-alive counter code that
RSX-whatever-F checked for the KL front end, when the
-10 stopped incrementing, was "Snark was Boojum-Call
Bellman." It was removed over my objection as too obscure.

This isn't in any way to take credit for the internal use of the
name for the SNARK project. The book and the term were
popular among -10 enthusiasts at the time. In the late 60's
when people called a a program "snarked" everyone knew
exactly what was meant, "Then the bowsprit got mixed with the rudder
sometimes."






Article 7069 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cnn.nas.nasa.gov!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail
From: Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 SMP [Was Re: The computer jargon file]
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:06:05 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Corporation
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <38D2902C.8E3AE54@cfht.hawaii.edu>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

>
> /BAH>My apologies to those who are reading it again; I'm feeling
> /BAH>better about reposting it because there's a new old fart on
> /BAH>the block who just started reading the newsgroup.

Being the "old fart" in question and wanting to comment but not
having posted with Netscrape before, we'll see how this comes out .... :-)

>
> /BAH>Sometime, during the 6.03 development cycle and the advent
> /BAH>of the KL10 CPU, Jim noticed that the speed of service to
> /BAH>users was not very good.  After we shipped 6.03, Jim did
> /BAH>his usual "stare at the SYSDPY" displays and created a
> /BAH>performance data base (I think with the help of CDO) for
> /BAH>further performance analysis.
>

Hmmm, you mention 1978 - that sounds right for 7.01 but not for
the KL.  I worked at Marlboro in 1974 and 1975 and the 1025/1026
(I think those were the serial numbers) appeared while I was there.
I know this was the case 'cause I got to fix BASIC which, being a
good, old style program, made use of the extra bits in BLT pointers
which were being absconded with by the new segment stuff.

>
> /BAH>What he found absolutely floored him.  When one added a
> /BAH>second KL10 CPU, one did not get twice the service; his
> /BAH>analyses showed that one only got 0.8 the expected
> /BAH>performance.Those development days were lively with laughter,
> /BAH>fights, ups and downs.  A big up was the day that
> /BAH>the guys got the monitor to print its dot after TW
> /BAH>ran his macroes over the sources;

Another high point was the first time 1025 (the "boot CPU") was
powered down and 1026 kept running :-)

Jim "Nothead" "Boyer-Moore search in Texas TECO" Thomas




Article 7091 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-40
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 SMP [Was Re: The computer jargon file]
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 00 10:20:12 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 59
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References: <AtP94.8925$7S.6211@news20.bellglobal.com> <8aqqjs$mlb$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38D2902C.8E3AE54@cfht.hawaii.edu>
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In article <38D2902C.8E3AE54@cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> /BAH>My apologies to those who are reading it again; I'm feeling
>> /BAH>better about reposting it because there's a new old fart on
>> /BAH>the block who just started reading the newsgroup.
>
>Being the "old fart" in question and wanting to comment but not
>having posted with Netscrape before, we'll see how this 
>comes out .... :-)

It appears to have bopped over here OK.  For those of you
who may not remember the real name, may I introduce Nothead to
you all.

>
>>
>> /BAH>Sometime, during the 6.03 development cycle and the advent
>> /BAH>of the KL10 CPU, Jim noticed that the speed of service to
>> /BAH>users was not very good.  After we shipped 6.03, Jim did
>> /BAH>his usual "stare at the SYSDPY" displays and created a
>> /BAH>performance data base (I think with the help of CDO) for
>> /BAH>further performance analysis.
>>
>
>Hmmm, you mention 1978 - that sounds right for 7.01 but not for
>the KL.  I worked at Marlboro in 1974 and 1975 and the 1025/1026
>(I think those were the serial numbers) appeared while I was there.
>I know this was the case 'cause I got to fix BASIC which, being a
>good, old style program, made use of the extra bits in BLT pointers
>which were being absconded with by the new segment stuff.

One of the flavors of 6-level monitors supported KLs.  However,
they ran master/slave and turned out to be, IIRC, slower than
master/slave KI when comparing actually work getting done.

>
>>
>> /BAH>What he found absolutely floored him.  When one added a
>> /BAH>second KL10 CPU, one did not get twice the service; his
>> /BAH>analyses showed that one only got 0.8 the expected
>> /BAH>performance.Those development days were lively with laughter,
>> /BAH>fights, ups and downs.  A big up was the day that
>> /BAH>the guys got the monitor to print its dot after TW
>> /BAH>ran his macroes over the sources;
>
>Another high point was the first time 1025 (the "boot CPU") was
>powered down and 1026 kept running :-)

Yea.  Looking back on it now, we quickly got used to reconfiguring
systems on the fly for stand-alone, field service, etc.

Just for clarification, 1025 wasn't the "other" CPU.  It was
1042.  1025 was the hardware engineering CPU.
/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 7205 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: pechter@news.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Shell scripts
Date: 21 Mar 2000 05:39:41 -0500
Organization: Unknown
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References: <AtP94.8925$7S.6211@news20.bellglobal.com> <38D058A2.A3178676@bell-labs.com> <Pine.NXT.4.30.0003152251550.3301-100000@Tomobiki-Cho. <38D172EA.49B8464D@bellatlantic.net>
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In article <38D172EA.49B8464D@bellatlantic.net>,
HerbalGypsy/justbobthebard  <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Ok, since this is also in a.f.c,
>what about the biannual rumors that DEC was a target for a takeover by
>AT&T?
>I don't recall if that was the odd year rumor or the even year rumor in
>the 70s.
>But there was the consent decree, the carterfone decision, etc.
>bob

Bob -- the rumor I heard at DEC was about 1984.

DEC was to merge with AT&T -- killed by AT&T telling Ken Olson they were
going to put in place the senior DEC mgmt... K.O. told em to go scratch
(supposedly).

At the same time DEC was working an outsource deal with AT&T to supply
all Sysadmin and Operations personnel into Bell Labs to admin the 
Unix machines... (I was being considered a position as a Unix admin
as part of that...)

Amazing since Lucent's done the outsource with IBM Global Services
and here I am in Bell Labs doing Sysadmin direct for Lucent 15 years
after the rumor.

If DEC and AT&T merged and DEC was in charge of hardware there might
never have been the spread of Unix to DEC competitors... Who knows.
This may have avoided the spread of HP-UX boxes and Apollo might have
remained successful with Domain/OS.

Compaq could've been just another PC company.

Sun might have had cheap DEC/AT&T Unix boxes to compete with and DEC and
AT&T microsystems might have had the Alpha out without building the
costly (now Intel) fab plant.

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?


Article 7188 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: TOPS-10 dates and features
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:33:14 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Corporation
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Is there a decent list of dates and features of TOPS-10 versions?

I don't see much of one on Joe's nice page.  (It references Compaq's
Digital timeline pages - which don't get it right either.  They show
a picture of a KI-10 in 1971 as the first DECsystem-10 and another
picture in 1972 as the first KI-10. :-)  They also tout DECNET in
1975 neglecting ANF-10.)

I'd be willing to take a wild stab at it; though I was mostly only a
user, only active from 73 to 81, and have only a KI-10 reference
card left from my collection :-(

Nothead

1969 - 4N50/4S50 - Swapping?
1970 - 4S72 - high segments
1971 - 5.01 - KI-10, paging
???? - 5.02 - the first even numbered one to avoid ?
1973 - 5.03 - SFD's and PATH's ?
197? - 5.05 - FILDAE (or was that 5.07?)
1975 - 6.01 - KL-10
?




Article 7189 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: 20 Mar 2000 19:37:01 GMT
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
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Peter da Silva <peter@taronga.com> quotes Christopher C. Stacy:

> > The most often used kind of application today is the WYSIWYG display
> > editor, and the first one of those was TECO and EMACS, written in
> > assembley and TECO, respectively, on ITS.
> 
> What year? The first full screen editor I ever saw was in the early '70s on
> a minicomputer at Honeywell Australia.

TECO had screen editing at least by 1964, according to a manual that
you can read at

  http://www.pobox.com/~enf/lore/teco/teco-64.html

At that point TECO seems to have run standalone rather than under any
operating system; by the July, 1965 revision it seems to have picked up
some operating system support.

The first screen editor that I am aware of, though, was not TECO but
"M856.  EDITING TEXT FOR IMMEDIATE DISPLAY" written by Martin E. Somin
of the MIT Electrical Engineering Department in 1959.  It is described
as follows in Progress Report Number 6 of the Research and Educational
Activities in Machine Computation by the Cooperating Colleges of New
England, MIT Computation Center, January, 1960:

   This problem will be concerned with designing a computer program
   that will allow editorial work on a given piece of text in such
   a manner that the text in its edited form is immediately available
   in a visual display.  This example of man and machine interaction
   may prove useful in editing commercial copy.

   The program will allow both additions and deletions of text,
   punctuation marks, spacing and capitals at any point in the original
   text.  As additions and deletions are made, all words in the text
   will automatically shift so as to keep the margins uniform.  Any
   words making for more than a predetermined number of characters on
   a line will be shift [sic] to the next line of text.  In the case of
   additions to the text, material run off the bottom of the page would
   be stored in a separate memory for use in starting the next page.
   This run off text will not ordinarily appear in the visual display.

eric


Article 7190 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: 20 Mar 2000 19:47:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>What year? The first full screen editor I ever saw was in the early '70s [...]

It depends what you count as a "full screen editor."  TECO was displaying the
buffer on the screen in the early 60s (starting on the PDP-1), but you typed
a sequence of (terse) commands and the whole sequence took effect at once
when you finished (with ALT ALT).  Single-keystroke editing in TECO started
with "real time edit mode" around 1970 or so but I think TVEDIT at Stanford
was earlier than that.

P.S.  What I miss most from the PDP-10 is the ability to debug a crashed
kernel and revive it!  And of course the open-source nature of all the
software.  And, when it comes to teaching students about machine organization,
I miss the fact that an address can fit in an instruction.  :-)

No, on second thought, what I miss most is the fact that writing a file with
the same name as an existing file creates a new one, not seen by readers
until it's closed!  This is the most crucial thing that Unix got wrong, imho,
and Dos got it even more spectacularly wrong, from which we still suffer
in Windows.


Article 7192 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:21:04 GMT
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
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Brian Harvey <bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

> It depends what you count as a "full screen editor."  TECO was displaying the
> buffer on the screen in the early 60s (starting on the PDP-1)

For what it's worth, Dan Murphy has denied that PDP-1 TECO used the
display.  I would love to see code or documentation for PDP-1 TECO
proving either that it did or did not have display support.

> Single-keystroke editing in TECO started  with "real time edit mode" around
> 1970 or so but I think TVEDIT at Stanford was earlier than that.

And indeed, you can read about TVEDIT in "THOR--a display based time
sharing system" by John McCarthy, Gary Feldman, and John Allen in the
proceedings of the 1967 Spring Joint Computer Conference.  As documented
there, it supported the following editing commands:

  n space       move right n characters
  n backspace   move left n characters
  n return      move down n lines
  n K           delete n characters or lines
  n G           go to page n
  P             insert page mark
  I             enter insert mode
  W             get next display window
  F             finish editing

According to the bibliography attached to that article, TVEDIT existed
in March, 1965.

eric


Article 7213 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: 21 Mar 2000 16:04:21 GMT
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
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Johnny Billquist  <Johnny.Billquist@netinsight.se> wrote:

> > For what it's worth, Dan Murphy has denied that PDP-1 TECO used the
> > display.  I would love to see code or documentation for PDP-1 TECO
> > proving either that it did or did not have display support.
> 
> Huh? Eric, just about two hours earlier you posted a reference to
> a 1964 TECO manual with regards to the display.

The 1964 manual is for PDP-6 TECO and only says that *most* of the
ideas were taken from the PDP-1 version.  The display support might
have been one of the ideas that was ported from the PDP-1 to the
PDP-6, or it might have been a new feature.

eric


Article 7211 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^
Date: 21 Mar 2000 15:58:15 GMT
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
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Johnny Billquist  <Johnny.Billquist@netinsight.se> wrote:

> Well, you can argue as much as you want to. EMACS-style editing of command
> lines isn't in T20 as far as I know

At least some installations had it.  I have a copy of a University
of Chicago computation center newsletter with an article announcing
the availablity of the feature.

eric


Article 7921 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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From: Christopher C Stacy <cstacy@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^)
Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself)
Message-ID: <x8lsnx1ktou.fsf@world.std.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:22:57 GMT
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10003180849470.6959-100000@bony.umtec.com> <38E6B5EA.5B112B79@bellatlantic.net> <8c7smv$jra$1@saltmine.radix.net> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004030858500.3837-100000@bony.umtec.com> <8cbru6$s7n$1@saltmine.radix.net> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004040849200.5364-100000@bony.umtec.com> <PAT.00Apr4113627@smithfield.transarc.ibm.com> <vytem8l7s7o.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <x8lln2tpqa2.fsf@world.std.com> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004041949070.5677-100000@bony.umtec.com>
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>>>>> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:49:53 -0500, Daniel Seagraves ("Daniel") writes:
 Daniel> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Christopher C Stacy wrote:
 >> Moreover, the point of contention is not about "ITS", but rather about
 >> the personal files of the users of some computers that ran ITS.

 Daniel> Really?  I thought it was the software!  So, if I can get rid of the
 Daniel> personal stuff, I can distribute the remainder?

It's a little more complex than that.

In a sense, there is no such single thing as "ITS" or "the ITS
software".  There was never any ITS "distribution" or anything, 
nor was ITS any kind of product, nor (contrary to the silly claims
on this newsgroup) was ITS a deliverable item on a Government contract.  
(And as someone pointed out, that would not automatically make it
public domain or Government property anyway.)  There is no set of
files or directories which can clearly be identified as "ITS";
it's all mixed together with personal stuff.  That means that your
first job would be to determine who holds the copyrights to all the
pieces that you want to make copies of.  That also implies that you
know what the pieces are that you need.

It is very likely that MIT holds the copyrights to everything that is
needed to bring up a running ITS.  However, sorting out what those
pieces are, and distinguishing them from pieces of private materials
(software, documentation, and other files) that MIT might not own, 
and also filtering out other kinds of personal material, is a job
that can really only be accomplished by certain people at MIT.

If you were to take that upon yourself, you would be incurring all
the legal liability that goes with it.  And if you were not personally
intimately involved with the materials at the time, how do you imagine
you would know for sure what you're looking at?  In addition to
copyright issues, you could easily get into other kinds of legal
problems involving areas like invasion of privacy.  There could
potentially hundreds of people involved in legal actions.  
Do you have enough lawyers to back you up on a project like this?

Anyway, there are people working with MIT to create a sanitized ITS
distribution for people who would like this historical artifact.
They are mostly not getting paid, and are doing it for personal reasons. 
This also means that they are not in a big pressured hurry to do it.
When they have something ready, they will also have to get it past the
MIT lawyers, who must be confident that MIT will not get into trouble
by accidently releasing things that they shouldn't.

My advice would be to wait for them to get around to it, and not bug them.
There is no release schedule for this.  It will be a gift when it happens.


Article 7933 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:24:00 -0700
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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One of my earliest encounters with UNIX left a real bad impression with
me.  This was in V6 PDP-11 days.  A UNIX developer (who shall go nameless)
was having trouble implementing Telnet protocol.  It's not easy to do
Telnet right; the obvious implementation will set you into a protocol
loop.

So he picked my brains for how I did it in ITS and TOPS-20; I wrote the
standard Telnet client for both systems, although there were earlier
implementations.  At the time, my algorithm was considered to be the best
way to do Telnet, since it would get the protocol right and didn't have
deadlock problems.  When I outlined the algorithm, I could see him become
crestfallen, because what I described was unimplementable in the UNIX of
that time (it still is unimplementable in many UNIX variants running
today).

In brief, my algorithm had two processes sharing writeable memory to
communicate state.  Rather than have an "option pending" state (which is
very difficult to do right!), I simply had an "enabled" or "disabled" for
each Telnet state.  If I initiated a state change, I would simply send the
protocol to change the state and immediately set the state.  The protocol
receiving process would simply ignore any protocol that did not change the
state; if the protocol would change the state, it made the change and sent
back the answer.

The key was in using shared writeable memory, so interprocess
communication was possible without any deadlocks; furthermore, that there
be no queueing of the interprocess communication.  In other words, a
change that was overwritten by a subsequent change would essentially
disappear.

Tests demonstrated that the shortcut of not having the "option pending"
state didn't make any difference in the (correct) protocol dialog or in
user behavior.  Even Jon Postel agreed that it was a neat solution to the
problem.  Jon was normally quite a purist.

UNIX Telnet had to do it a different way, and anyone who's ever looked at
it will see just how hairy it ended up before they got it right.  
Fortunately, the versions that got it wrong are mostly extinct (although
not on my 3B1...).

Today, of course, you could do my algorithm on UNIX systems which have
threads.  But this is now, and that was then; and nobody really feels a
compelling need to rewrite UNIX Telnet now.  Most UNIX programmers still
don't comprehend the use of shared writeable memory between threads.

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Candidate for #1 Internet Myth: That Unix invented the 'net and
> its protocols.
> 
> Reference: RFC 139, "Discussion of Telnet Protocol", 7-May-1971.
> 
> Admittedly, Telnet has changed a lot in the past three decades, but
> to claim that it didn't exist before its Unix implementation is
> a bit extreme, isn't it?

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State.	*
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.		*
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 7936 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Telnet age (was ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^))
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Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:

>Stephen H. Westin wrote:

>> I was under the impression that telnet was a fairly late phenomenon;
>> "rsh" and "rlogin" were makeshift utilities on Berkeley Unix

Well, gee.  The old telnet protocol was retired around 1974, the new
started showing up around 1973 (I implemented the client half on
TOPS-10, Ed Taft at Harvard implemented the server half).
The "r" commands in BSD Unix were part of teaching Unix about the ARPAnet
and happened much later.  The "r" commands are very much Unix-specific.

>Candidate for #1 Internet Myth: That Unix invented the 'net and
>its protocols.

>Reference: RFC 139, "Discussion of Telnet Protocol", 7-May-1971.

That's for the old protocol.  I think the new protocol got started around:

RFC 0461 - Telnet Protocol meeting announcement (February 14, 1973)

At least I worked on it in the 73/74 timeframe.  The old protocol is
so different it really deserves a different name.

Our implementation gave Harvard and CMU reputations as the fastest systems
around, as it was all implemented in interrupt level code.  I used
coroutines to handle decoding options split across message boundaries, as
I couldn't readily write code to "fetch the next character".  So I
just swapped PCs between interrupt code that stepped through each received
octet and code that decoded the octet stream.  I was quite delighted
to find a very good use for the PDP-10 coroutine instruction (JSP AC,0(AC)).
It was much like a state machine that used the PC as the state variable.

Ah yes.  I wrote a lot of code before going to New York City over
Thanksgiving in 1973 during the first of the oil crunches.  Trying to
find gas on the Sunday we returned was not fun.  It was a couple weeks
later before I had time to type in the code.  I wrote code on paper
and added comments as I typed.  It took me over a day to figure out
what I had written!  However, it came up quickly and was very solid.
I may have been the only site that was ready on the original changeover
date (Feb 1974?).

>Admittedly, Telnet has changed a lot in the past three decades,

Telnet has changed remarkably little since the new protocol was designed.

 but
>to claim that it didn't exist before its Unix implementation is
>a bit extreme, isn't it?

Not at all.  Unless one posts that claim in these newsgroups.  :-)

	-Ric Werme
--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 7938 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Telnet age (was ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC?
 ^_^))
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:57:40 -0700
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Ric Werme wrote:
> I used
> coroutines to handle decoding options split across message boundaries, as
> I couldn't readily write code to "fetch the next character".  So I
> just swapped PCs between interrupt code that stepped through each received
> octet and code that decoded the octet stream.  I was quite delighted
> to find a very good use for the PDP-10 coroutine instruction (JSP AC,0(AC)).
> It was much like a state machine that used the PC as the state variable.

Damn, I miss coroutines!  I too was a big user of the JSP instruction for
coroutines.  The Dialnet protocol drivers, the TC-190 magtape driver, and
last but not least the infamous Cafard (TOPS-20 equivalent of UUCP mail)
all used JSP coroutines.

No way to do coroutines in C.  The closest thing is setjmp()/longjump()
which is much less powerful.

The interesting thing was that I figured out coroutines on my own with the
Dialnet stuff 23+ years ago.  I remember telling the senior wizard about
my new neat hack, and was deflated to be told "it's an old technique
that's been around for years.  It's call a coroutine."  ;-)

I have no doubt that in about 10-20 years, some kidlet will rediscover the
idea and try to patent it.

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State.	*
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.		*
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 7946 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Telnet age (was ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC?  ^_^))
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Date: 6 Apr 2000 21:27:01 GMT
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[Snipped PDP-10 material and its newsgroup from the followup list.
Restore it if you like.]

In article <Pine.NXT.4.30.0004051838460.2895-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

> No way to do coroutines in C.  The closest thing is setjmp()/longjump()
> which is much less powerful.

There's no standard coroutine mechanism in C.  But if you can't
implement coroutines in a particular C implementation, that's the
implementation's fault, not the language's.  There's nothing in C
itself to prevent you from inventing your own generalized catch/throw
or transfer-control mechanism, which can be used to create
coroutines.  It's tricky to do that in a portable fashion, but wasn't
someone arguing just a little while ago that nothing significant
could be done portably in C anyway?

It's not *convenient* to do coroutines in C, true.  But then it isn't
in most HLLs.  (Scheme is one exception; no doubt there are others.)
Yes, that's unfortunate; coroutines are a useful technique.  But their
applications can be satisfied well enough by other techniques, so
there's no compelling reason to add them to established languages.

Personally, I'd like to see a new language with some elements of the
C philosophy but with more of the close-to-the-metal power of assembler.
The trend with C derivatives (C++, Java) has been toward more abstrac-
tion; that's desirable in many domains, but not everywhere.  (There was
an excellent interview with someone in DDJ a couple of years back about
numerical programming where the interviewee pointed out that the big
impediment to using Java for number-crunching wasn't its performance
but its abstraction, particularly its enforcement of rounding modes and
other chip-level behavior.)

Such a hypothetical language would allow the programmer to transfer
control to specific addresses, perhaps not only of functions but of,
say, basic blocks as well.  And it would have other niceties to ease
deviating from the simple call-and-return control flow, like a real
mechanism for handling parameters rather than  the clumsy stdarg
kluge.  (stdarg is handy, but it's nasty and opaque and situated at
the wrong level.  It should be built into the basic language, not the
standard library.)

There's Forth, which has many nice characteristics, but isn't well-
suited to most large production applications.  (Forth religious wars
follow up to alt.I.don't.give.a.damn, please.)  I'd like a procedural
language that can do this sort of thing.

> I have no doubt that in about 10-20 years, some kidlet will rediscover the
> idea and try to patent it.

Indeed.  I'm sure many of us remember the Mark Williams Company
"canonical network representation" patent (apparently still in force;
I looked it up on the IBM patent web site a few months back out of
curiosity), and things have only gotten worse since.  The latest DDJ
has an editorial ranting (appropriately) about the recent Amazon.com
patents on trivial ideas...


-- 
Michael Wojcik          	        michael.wojcik@merant.com
AAI Development, MERANT                 (block capitals are a company mandate)
Department of English, Miami University

Art is our chief means of breaking bread with the dead ... but the social
and political history of Europe would be exactly the same if Dante and
Shakespeare and Mozart had never lived.  -- W. H. Auden


Article 7923 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!news
From: Christopher C Stacy <cstacy@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^)
Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself)
Message-ID: <x8lln2tkpf5.fsf@world.std.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:55:10 GMT
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>>>>> On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:14:53 -0500, Daniel Seagraves ("Daniel") writes:
 Daniel> On 2 Apr 2000, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
 Daniel> [snip]

 >> It's a myth that there was a golden age when everyone on the net was a
 >> hacker, and private files could be left unprotected.
 >> 
 >> ITS was full of "lusing turistic scum" who were always getting warned,
 >> or even flushed.  People often read each others's mail, and sometimes
 >> even altered it.  It was common for people to spy on each other.

 Daniel> This is hinted at in some of the stuff I've read.  I gather that turist
 Daniel> then == luser (or user) today?

Daniel,

ITS was indeed very open: all users had what under UNIX would be
called root privileges (at all times).  Also, login did not require
any password, except when connecting from untrusted locations.

As mentioned above, there was a utility program that let you watch
what someone else was seeing on their terminal.  Mere voyerism was 
not the primary use of that facility, though; it was generally used 
to help some user who has having trouble.  It was also useful for
observing someone who was *making* trouble!  Just randomly surfing
around usually turned out rather boring.

There were certainly problems with malicous users, or more often,
users who were just making a mistake.  One poor fellow never lived
down the day he misunderstood a filename wildcard syntax and
accidently deleted almost all the files on the system!

We considered those kinds of problems to be worth the trouble,
compared to dealing with file security issues.  But that doesn't
work in the large.  A better analogy in today's world would be
a file directory in which the Group permissions were set so that
all group member could read/write/delete the files.

ITS was designed for use by a small number of cooperative users living
in a small laboratory.  It was a very advanced PDP-10 operating system
with many interesting features.  ITS was written at MIT (originally
for the PDP-6) and was not based on any other system.  

It was somewhat different from later PDP-10 operating systems such 
as TOPS-10 and TOPS-20.  Many people considered ITS to be better 
than TOPS-20, although "Twenex" had many features (security, batch
processing, extended addressing, uniform application command interface,
and more) which ITS lacked.  ITS was where EMACS, among other things,
was invented.

The ITS computers were run under a policy where we would allow some
limited access by guest users.  We called the guest users "tourists",
and they included students and researchers from MIT and elsewhere
on the network, and even some totally random people who somehow
figured out how to connect to us via the ARPANET.  However, I don't
recall the tourists being referred to in the derogatory manner 
described above, at least by us, even when they were being pests.

The ITS hackers (system programmers) jokingly referred to all the
other users as "lusers"; that didn't have anything to do with tourists.
This joke appears in various places all over the system.
See "LUSER" (or even "USER") in an authentic version of the JARGON file.

Some of the tourists were high school or college kids from the DC area
who had somehow gotten hold of a dialup number to the ARPANET.
Like, their daddy worked for the Defense Department, and they stole
it from him, and then they told a friend who told a friend.
Sometimes these tourists (knowing that at least to some degree,
they were not supposed to be on the system) would try to masquerade
as someone else; the smart ones just kept a low profile.
The DC/VA tourists were generally considered to be the most pesty
and most prone to do annoying things on the system, partly because
there were just more of them.  Anyway, when any particular tourist
became a problem, we would ask them to straighten up, or finally
go ahead and delete their account.  

Starting around late 1981, when people suddenly had access to personal
computers (like the TRS-80) and modems and BBS systems, there were many
more problems with tourist users.   Our open, unprotected environment
was not very compatible with the nascent real world.

Doing something like altering someone else's email would be a good
example of behaviour that would get you kicked off the system.  
That particular thing didn't happen very much -- I don't actually
remember any such incidents off the top of my head.  More likely
would be someone accidently deleting someone else's mailbox.

None of these guest users had any "right" to be on the system; the
whole deal was totally at the sufferage of the ITS administrators,
and so accounts could be terminated anytime for any arbitrary reason.
Typically, accounts were terminated for not obeying the rules about
when you were allowed to be connected (ie. not when the machine is
busy), harassing other users, or for doing things (eg. on the network)
that brought unwanted attention from the Government (you will recall
that the ARPANET was not a public network, but rather a military
network owned and opeated by the Department of Defense).

Not too surprisingly, many tourists had really weird and distorted ideas
about the system, the policies, the people on it, and the whole thing.

-- Chris

This message is a copyrighted work of Christopher Stacy with All Rights Reserved.


Article 7932 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:03:16 -0700
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Christopher C Stacy wrote:
> Many people considered ITS to be better 
> than TOPS-20, although "Twenex" had many features (security, batch
> processing, extended addressing, uniform application command interface,
> and more) which ITS lacked.

Even RMS once admitted to me that Tenex/TOPS-20 also had a better virtual
memory system than ITS.  In Tenex/TOPS-20, virtual memory was the
fundamental basis of the entire file/memory system.  The best way to think
of it is that every 512-word page, be it in memory ("core"), filesystem
("disk"), or swapping area ("drum"), had a globally unique page address;
and that a particular memory address space page could be mapped to any of
these.  A full understanding requires a reading of the PDP-10 Hardware
Reference Manual and understanding the function of the different types of
page pointers, section tables, page tables, shared page table, and core
status table.

In ITS, virtual memory was almost as much as an afterthought as it is on
UNIX.

Needless to say, TOPS-20 style virtual memory is probably unimplementable
on modern CPUs.

> Not too surprisingly, many tourists had really weird and distorted ideas
> about the system, the policies, the people on it, and the whole thing.

Definitely true!

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State.	*
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.		*
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 7941 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Christopher C Stacy <cstacy@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^)
Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself)
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>>>>> On 5 Apr 2000 23:04:33 -0400, Keith F Lynch ("Keith") writes:
 Keith> Chris neglects to mention that he was one of those pesty
 Keith> and annoying DC/VA tourists.

Heh heh.  However, I am not sure how pesty a tourist I was, since it
was only a little while before I accepted a research position at the
AI lab, where I worked on the development of ITS (and other things)
and was also the ARPANET liason and primary system administrator.



Article 8089 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <qhd7nwti79.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
>    Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
> >Christopher C Stacy <cstacy@world.std.com> writes:
> >> That means that your
> >> first job would be to determine who holds the copyrights to all the
> >> pieces that you want to make copies of.  That also implies that you
> >> know what the pieces are that you need.
> >
> >Pre-1988 files (which would presumably be most of them) are not elgible
> >for copyright protection in the US unless they bear a copyright notice
> >(with minor exceptions in U.S. Code Title 17 Section 405).
> 
> And every single source within DEC had a copyright notice.
> As of (I think it was) 7.02 ship, even the EXE files had
> a f***ing ASCII copyright notice stored in appropriate
> low core.  I really do know what I'm talking about.
> I spent years of my life editing those damn notices.
> 
> /BAH
Yep, that was what happened when we started hiring all those lawyers.
I don't recall the patent attorney we hired, we got a lot of questions
about why we did not apply for patents on all kinds of things -
including the design for the original UART that Vince Bastiani, John
McNamara, Remi Lisee, et al did.  WE just wanted a lower price on
chips!! 
bob
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8101 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: ITS CD (was Re: Wanna see how to annoy MRC? ^_^)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 00 09:03:35 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <38F51423.FF7DAA8E@bellatlantic.net>,
   HerbalGypsy/justbobthebard <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
>
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <qhd7nwti79.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
>>    Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>> >Christopher C Stacy <cstacy@world.std.com> writes:
>> >> That means that your
>> >> first job would be to determine who holds the copyrights to all the
>> >> pieces that you want to make copies of.  That also implies that you
>> >> know what the pieces are that you need.
>> >
>> >Pre-1988 files (which would presumably be most of them) are not elgible
>> >for copyright protection in the US unless they bear a copyright notice
>> >(with minor exceptions in U.S. Code Title 17 Section 405).
>> 
>> And every single source within DEC had a copyright notice.
>> As of (I think it was) 7.02 ship, even the EXE files had
>> a fucking ASCII copyright notice stored in appropriate
>> low core.  I really do know what I'm talking about.
>> I spent years of my life editing those damn notices.

>Yep, that was what happened when we started hiring all those lawyers.
>I don't recall the patent attorney we hired, we got a lot of questions
>about why we did not apply for patents on all kinds of things -
>including the design for the original UART that Vince Bastiani, John
>McNamara, Remi Lisee, et al did.  WE just wanted a lower price on
>chips!! 

DEC was terribly sloppy about patenting the stuff they should
have.  Patent training was not widespread throughout the company.
Copyrighting was mainly because we, in Tape Prep, had been told
to put one in everything we typed up for the programmers.  If
it had been left to the programmers, not a thing would have
been copyrighted either because that info never made it through
the supervisor.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8171 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:38:13 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <38f3a164$0$222@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
>    inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
...
> >To get an unabiguous answer to the question "is anyone
> >updating this file",
> >all programs accessing that file would have to consistently call ENQ./DEQ.
> >requesting shared or exclusive locks.
> 
> I forgot about the ENQ./DEQ.  I always meant to figure out
> exactly what happened with that stuff.  ...

Peter Vatne (at least) ported it to VMS.  

http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/4527/4527pro_033.html#jun_227
http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/4527/4527pro_028.html#jun_202
http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/4527/4527pro_045.html#jun_295

He and Bill Kilgore presented the results in the 10/20 conference rooms
(aka Hardware/Software C/Rs, off of the MR1-2 cafeteria) from 2-4PM on
Monday, 4-Mar-85.  The talk was catered (a red wine-flavored,
walnut-bit-encrusted cheese ball).

One presumes that Wild Bill worked on the port as well; I just don't
remember speaking to him about it, whereas I chatted with Peter a tad.

Peter (at least) might have paid for the cheese ball.  I don't know
whether the wine flavoring was port, or something else.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 8188 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: ooh, a *real* flamewar :)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:44:16 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
...
> The UUOSYM that you were reading in high school was BEFORE
> I became responsible for it.  After it became my baby, there
> were no omissions, AFAICT.

Now the truth can be told:  Once upon a time, FOROTS had to refer to a
secret bit in I/O buffer headers.

During backspace operations it would wait until I/O was done, and then
count the number of buffers that had been read, turning off use bits on
the way.  However, there was no documented way of telling how many
buffers contained data.  From FORIO.MAC:

"
FNDUSE:	MOVE	T4,-1(T3)		;GET STATUS WORD
	TLNE	T4,40			;TAPE EOF?
	 AOJA	T1,USEDON		;YES. WE'RE DONE
"

From S.MAC:

"
; I/O STATUS WORD ASSIGNMENTS - THESE ARE THE "MODE" OF DEVMOD

...
; STATUS BITS

;RIGHT HALF (USER)

...
; LEFT HALF (SYSTEM)

...

	XP	IOEND,40	;SERVICE ROUTINE HAS TRANSMITTED LAST DATA

"

The bit is commented as a "system" (non-"user") bit, but the
information was only available by testing that bit.  I remember the look
on Jon's face when he came back from the monitor group telling him to
use the magic number (maybe they even told him about the magic number in
the first place).


The reference eventually went away when FOROTS switched to leaning more
heavily on TAPOP.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 8154 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-86
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: ooh, a *real* flamewar :)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 00 08:33:52 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <8d9iv9$b6f$7@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <AtP94.8925$7S.6211@news20.bellglobal.com> <8c058c$o9d@weyl.math.psu.edu> <38e3c5a9_3@news.wizvax.net> <8c0oeq$ek4$1@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu> <38e40a3b_2@news.wizvax.net> <8c2a8v$a01$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <mWcJ4.1877$PV.126922@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8d6tf7$rkm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <uem88vmn5.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu> <38F79DE7.26C031B1@cfht.hawaii.edu>
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In article <38F79DE7.26C031B1@cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>"Stephen H. Westin" wrote:
>
>> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>>
>> > It certainly seemed to generate it.  The yahoos who were
>> > insisting that all development be done in BLISS suffered
>> > from that malady to the nth degree.
>> >
>> > It sure was a pain in everybody's backside.
>> >
>> > Developer:  I've found a bug in the BLISS compiler.
>> > BLISS developer:  Find a workaround.
>> >
>> > And that was the story forever.
>>
>> Which, I think, explains the attitude toward higher-level languages in
>> the 36-bit DEC world. That's not the only possible scenario; with
>> Unix, the two groups were the same, so folks had a personal stake in
>> fixing things. So C basically worked, and an OS was written in it.
>>
>
>Barb, do you know any of the history behind the choice of BLISS-10 for
>FORTRAN-10? 

No.  I don't.

> Was it Norma's choice or burden? 

IIRC, when FORTRAN-10 was begun (I was in Tape Prep so that
had to be 1971 or 1972), Norma was still a programmer becoming
project leader; so didn't that make Al Ryder the supervisor?
John Everett would remember more.  Ah, and I forgot, Valdeanne
Alusic was there at the time, too.  

> And how did that grow into
>the incompatible implementation of BLISS-36/BLISS-32 

The divergence of BLISS-10 (and, I suspect also BLISS-11)
and BLISS-nn was due to two software ships from CMU that
were spanned by many years and implementing backwards
incompatibilities.  What do you expect from something 
produced via an insulated installation?

> ...and requirement for
>using BLISS for everything?

There requirement that BLISS be used for everything came from CMU
imports.  I remember the day when I was told that all TOPS10
monitor _patches_ had to be written in BLISS.  Now, patches
are little tiny files written in DDT that were applied to EXE
files.  And these HARDWARE assholes couldn't understand that
the law didn't make any sense.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8153 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-86
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: ooh, a *real* flamewar :)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 00 08:24:16 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <8d9ida$b6f$6@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <AtP94.8925$7S.6211@news20.bellglobal.com> <8c058c$o9d@weyl.math.psu.edu> <38e3c5a9_3@news.wizvax.net> <8c0oeq$ek4$1@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu> <38e40a3b_2@news.wizvax.net> <8c2a8v$a01$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <mWcJ4.1877$PV.126922@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8d6tf7$rkm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <uem88vmn5.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>
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In article <uem88vmn5.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>,
   westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <mWcJ4.1877$PV.126922@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>    "David Thompson" <david.thompson1@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >Sorry, I can't resist:  So BLISS dev't is ignorance?
>> >
>> >..REPT 3 <G> ; hmm...  <<G>> ? <"<G>"> ? foo!
>> >
>> It certainly seemed to generate it.  The yahoos who were
>> insisting that all development be done in BLISS suffered
>> from that malady to the nth degree.
>> 
>> It sure was a pain in everybody's backside.  
>> 
>> Developer:  I've found a bug in the BLISS compiler.
>> BLISS developer:  Find a workaround.
>> 
>> And that was the story forever.
>
>Which, I think, explains the attitude toward higher-level languages in
>the 36-bit DEC world. 

Errrmmm, no.  This also happened when JMF got lobotomized from
a 36-bit to a 32-bit memory.  He was doing the Alpha CPU
stuff _for_ VMS and got told that from the VMS language people.

>That's not the only possible scenario; with
>Unix, the two groups were the same, so folks had a personal stake in
>fixing things. So C basically worked, and an OS was written in it.

Yes.  That is the way it should work.  But, as a group gets
successful, the number of people involved increase.  Eventually,
the group splits up so that the workers can "managed" better.
Then egoes and empire building happens.  Soon, the groups
no longer tolerated a "good morning" from each other.

>
>I can imagine the corporate culture that made this happen: growth
>followed by Balkanization, then selling ideas to upper management that
>*could* work in the right conditions, but not worrying about whether
>the conditions were right.
>
>So DEC got to be successful enough that there were different groups
>doing parallel work on different architectures. This was seen as
>corporate inefficiency, so the notion of a common higher-level
>implementation language was attractive.

Nah, this happened before there was inefficiency.  What happened
is we got a fatal infection; I always called it CMUitis.

> Unfortunately, those
>responsible for making that language work didn't have the same
>motivation as various product groups, who were trying to meet customer
>needs. So nothing worked. And I can imagine that teh cure was worse
>than the disease: folks finally realized that BLISS wasn't working, so
>they withdrew support for the compiler, leaving a body of production
>code that still needed maintenance, but with no hope of ever fixing
>the compiler.

Not with an edict that demanded all programming be done in BLISS.
The only holdouts that I know of was the -10 people.  (There may
have been little pockets of PDP-11 resistance, like IAS.)  And
we had to get "approval" for each and every module that we had
to write in MACRO-10.  



>Was it anything like that?
>
Read above. :-).  There's more the story but it was 
all a complicated political mess.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8161 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-55
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 00 11:27:57 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <8d9t5k$dji$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <547leyms3t.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> <8cv9rk$48c$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38f3902c$0$212@nntp1.ba.best.com> <8d1m1s$m4n$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2i4j$2fe1$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>
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In article <8d2i4j$2fe1$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,
   peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>In article <8d1m1s$m4n$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>Hopefully, that instruction execution at loc 4 didn't blast
>>any memory.  What does one do?  Write a bunch of JFCLs 
>>after each JUMP to ensure memory integrity?
>
>Normally something like move an instruction (or two) from before the
>jump to after the jump. Which can get tricky if it's a conditional jump.
>
OH, yes...I remember.  The Jupiter was supposed to cause that
flavor of programming.  I was in FORTRAN maintenance at the
time, attending the FORTRAN devlopement of verion 6 reviews
of specs and project meetings for the minions.  The OTS guy
was starting to program for the way it was _rumored_ that
Jupiter executed instructions.  That was one issue that
I put my foot down and insisted that nothing be done based
on Jupiter architecture.  I won that battle, fortunately.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8203 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-97
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: ooh, a *real* flamewar :)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 00 08:23:56 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <8der58$qtg$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <38E767FD.D3D0BBE8@MA.UltraNet.Com> <x8l7lefvdnv.fsf@world.std.com> <38F081DB.F25A9D52@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8cq353$8pe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38F0A26C.729245DC@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8csesa$bn7$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <38F8D7CD.87FD1272@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8dc5la$7le$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <Pine.NXT.4.30.0004161036370.19973-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
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In article 
<Pine.NXT.4.30.0004161036370.19973-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> You are suffering the malady of TOPS20itis where the monitor 
>> build SEARCHed the symbol definition file.  The monitor sources
>> of TOPS10 did NOT have a SEARCH UUOSYM.  Do you get it now?
>
>Barb, some of us would claim that the malady was that of TOPS10itis, where
>the monitor build didn't SEARCH the symbol definition file, and in fact
>often used completely different symbols from the symbol definition file.
>
>It is possible to twist the knife in deeper.  I don't think that we should
>go there.

I know.  It was an old fight.  There was nothing that pissed
us (TOPS10 group) off more than those other groups telling
us what work we should do.  They usually had a ton of manhours
available to spend and we only had three people to do all
the work in the monitor and most of the CUSPs.  In order to
get a complete development effort done, I generally picked
up all the shit work and did it on my own time.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8238 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Monitor source sizes [was Re: ooh, a *real* flamewar :)]
Date: 20 Apr 2000 18:38:47 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 408
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.00Apr20113848@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <AtP94.8925$7S.6211@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<slrn8e9qnc.5bk.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>
	<8cqg2u$pkp@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net>
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In article <8csgo2$t5@weyl.math.psu.edu> viro@weyl.math.psu.edu
(Alexander Viro) writes:

> ... that's interesting. Rather interesting. Could you give (rough) sizes of
> monitor source/everything you need to build it/stuff you need to boot the
> system and at least be able to launch external programs if they are brought
> to the box? Because even that would be pretty interesting. One can learn a
> lot about UNIX just from the kernel source. And it seems that you had a lot
> of stuff we are doing in userland sitting in the monitor.

I've been meaning to get back to this for a week and a half.

In the following directory listings, the fields are

 filename.type.gen	size bytecount(bytesize) date-and-time-of-write

where _size_ is in Tops-20 disk pages (512 words, often with 5 7-bit ASCII
characters/word).  The header is the structure ("filesystem") and directory.

First, the Tops-20 monitor:

   DXX:<7.MONITOR>
 ANAUNV.MAC.20     33 84479(7)    7-Oct-1999 13:09:18
 APRSRV.MAC.75    130 330537(7)   7-Feb-2000 10:29:46
 ARP.MAC.17        24 60791(7)    6-Oct-1999 10:56:14
 BOOCMD.MAC.21    120 305629(7)   9-Apr-1998 15:30:46
 BOOEND.MAC.1       1 110(7)      4-Oct-1995 19:39:50
 BOOINI.MAC.15     29 73529(7)   13-Nov-1996 14:29:55
 BOOPAR.MAC.11     29 72859(7)   12-Dec-1996 12:38:39
 BOOSUB.MAC.14     95 241716(7)  14-Nov-1996 17:41:53
 BOOTSV.MAC.5       6 13848(7)   20-Nov-1996 14:36:13
 BOOXRH.MAC.20    109 278314(7)  19-Sep-1997 16:22:39
 CFSPAR.MAC.3       4 10210(7)   14-May-1997 15:21:06
 CFSSRV.MAC.8      87 221767(7)  24-Apr-1996 11:48:13
 CFSUSR.MAC.3      14 33615(7)   29-Sep-1999 16:19:27
 CHECKD.MAC.46    119 304625(7)   8-Jun-1998 10:58:19
 CIDLL.MAC.1       24 59203(7)    6-Oct-1995 12:03:13
 CLUDGR.MAC.4      73 186446(7)  24-Apr-1996 11:53:09
 CLUFRK.MAC.2      23 57799(7)   24-Apr-1996 11:55:05
 CLUPAR.MAC.1       4 9700(7)    15-Nov-1988 12:50:28
 COMND.MAC.6       72 182587(7)   9-Sep-1998 18:51:58
 CRYPT.MAC.4        8 17928(7)   27-Mar-1999 11:08:52
 CTERMD.MAC.1      10 23869(7)    6-Mar-1989 13:07:52
 CTHSRV.MAC.2      49 123316(7)  19-Dec-1995 16:16:14
 D36COM.MAC.1      60 151450(7)  12-Jun-1995 12:50:44
 D36PAR.MAC.1      31 78971(7)    3-Mar-1988 11:48:52
 DATIME.MAC.4      34 85430(7)    3-Jan-2000 10:35:36
 DEVICE.MAC.3      11 26016(7)   27-Jan-1996 09:28:03
 DIAG.MAC.3        24 61124(7)   20-Mar-1996 14:29:03
 DIRECT.MAC.9      87 221091(7)  27-May-1998 09:08:48
 DISC.MAC.14       49 125185(7)  27-Mar-1999 11:10:13
 DNADLL.MAC.1      34 85140(7)    8-Nov-1995 12:37:47
 DOB.MAC.2         35 89503(7)   19-Dec-1995 14:52:01
 DOMSYM.MAC.1       1 363(7)     12-Jan-1994 18:24:07
 DSKALC.MAC.34    128 326676(7)  27-Mar-1999 11:13:19
 DSKDEF.MAC.1       1 1653(7)     8-Sep-1995 13:41:40
 DSYMS1.MAC.1       2 4371(7)     8-Sep-1988 15:51:03
 DSYMS2.MAC.1       1 610(7)      8-Sep-1988 14:08:12
 DTESRV.MAC.2      77 194754(7)  19-Dec-1995 14:52:10
 ENET.MAC.2        17 41394(7)   19-Dec-1995 17:06:05
 ENQ.MAC.2         40 101946(7)  19-Dec-1995 16:16:12
 ENQPAR.MAC.1       3 6058(7)     9-Feb-1988 12:20:24
 ENQSRV.MAC.1      30 76303(7)    8-Nov-1988 12:33:41
 EP.MAC.39         25 63626(7)    5-Jun-1999 21:34:12
 FESRV.MAC.1       11 25685(7)    8-Nov-1995 12:50:27
 FILINI.MAC.17     26 65396(7)   27-Mar-1999 11:14:54
 FILMSC.MAC.15     28 71134(7)   27-Mar-1999 11:16:13
 FORK.MAC.20       78 197990(7)  27-Apr-1999 10:25:15
 FREE.MAC.12       55 140582(7)  27-Mar-1999 15:07:15
 FUTILI.MAC.5      15 36603(7)   27-Mar-1999 11:22:31
 GETSAV.MAC.6      30 75713(7)   26-Jan-2000 11:34:27
 GLOBS.MAC.42      34 85046(7)   19-Oct-1999 12:50:47
 GTDOM.MAC.4       27 68364(7)    2-Jan-1998 12:36:58
 GTJFN.MAC.9       70 177345(7)  27-Mar-1999 12:33:30
 IO.MAC.20         40 100262(7)   4-Nov-1998 09:03:22
 IPCF.MAC.9        45 113855(7)   7-Sep-1998 17:22:17
 IPFREE.MAC.20     25 62846(7)    1-Feb-2000 16:15:44
 IPIPIP.MAC.27     91 232150(7)  19-Jan-2000 17:44:34
 JSYSA.MAC.20     118 300777(7)  27-Mar-1999 11:39:19
 JSYSF.MAC.23     141 360111(7)  27-Mar-1999 11:52:15
 JSYSM.MAC.41     103 261793(7)  12-Jan-2000 11:45:26
 LATSRV.MAC.2     111 283985(7)  19-Dec-1995 15:06:29
 LDINIT.MAC.7       3 5815(7)    11-Feb-1999 08:28:04
 LINEPR.MAC.2      20 48951(7)   19-Dec-1995 16:22:58
 LOGNAM.MAC.5      29 73103(7)   27-Mar-1999 11:36:57
 LOOKUP.MAC.3       9 21959(7)   25-Apr-1996 17:12:16
 LPFEDV.MAC.1       3 6859(7)     7-Mar-1994 11:35:06
 MAGTAP.MAC.13     48 122180(7)  20-Dec-1996 14:28:59
 MEXEC.MAC.90      71 181749(7)  17-Jan-2000 12:40:12
 MFLIN.MAC.3        5 10871(7)   21-Dec-1995 17:52:44
 MFLOUT.MAC.2      11 27923(7)   19-Dec-1995 15:07:56
 MNETDV.MAC.23     41 104772(7)  11-Oct-1999 15:23:51
 MSCPAR.MAC.1      11 25970(7)   11-Feb-1988 08:03:23
 MSTR.MAC.18       52 131751(7)  27-Mar-1999 11:47:15
 NAMXKL.MAC.1       1 715(7)     27-Dec-1993 11:03:37
 NEADV.MAC.1       47 118769(7)  26-Oct-1995 18:27:21
 NIPAR.MAC.1        5 12361(7)   11-Feb-1988 08:42:49
 NOKLPA.MAC.1       1 1080(7)    26-Oct-1995 16:56:08
 PAGEM.MAC.89     131 333934(7)  25-Feb-1999 15:43:15
 PAGUTL.MAC.59    138 352481(7)  31-Mar-1999 16:30:31
 PARAMS.MAC.12      6 15143(7)   26-Feb-1999 09:46:29
 PARKL.MAC.1        2 2586(7)     8-Mar-1994 17:28:15
 PARTD1.MAC.12      2 4564(7)    21-Jan-2000 12:49:25
 PAT20I.MAC.16     20 50237(7)    1-Dec-1999 08:22:20
 PATPAR.MAC.10      6 14968(7)   19-Jun-1999 14:16:01
 PDVADR.MAC.1       1 62(7)       7-Sep-1993 17:21:03
 PHYH2.MAC.1       22 54931(7)   14-Jun-1995 13:37:00
 PHYKLP.MAC.2      97 245854(7)  10-Nov-1995 16:47:52
 PHYM2.MAC.1       21 53294(7)    7-Sep-1995 18:44:48
 PHYM78.MAC.2      23 58336(7)    8-Nov-1995 18:21:07
 PHYMEI.MAC.1      16 40388(7)    5-Mar-1994 17:17:13
 PHYMSC.MAC.2      52 132661(7)  28-Nov-1995 14:21:03
 PHYMVR.MAC.1      33 83134(7)   14-Jun-1995 15:39:03
 PHYPAR.MAC.15     18 45010(7)    9-Oct-1997 14:58:53
 PHYPAT.MAC.22     70 177095(7)  20-Oct-1999 16:56:49
 PHYSDK.MAC.62     42 104999(7)   6-Apr-1999 17:23:44
 PHYSIO.MAC.72     79 200795(7)   9-Aug-1999 10:48:43
 PHYSTP.MAC.62     29 73250(7)    7-Oct-1999 13:02:26
 PHYT20.MAC.10     35 89393(7)   21-Jul-1997 15:53:10
 PHYXNI.MAC.27     34 86460(7)   13-Oct-1999 12:32:05
 PHYXRH.MAC.90     61 155700(7)   7-Sep-1998 17:49:35
 PIPE.MAC.4        13 30889(7)   19-Oct-1999 09:13:15
 PKOPR.MAC.1       15 36455(7)   15-Jul-1994 09:09:58
 POSTLD.MAC.13     32 80175(7)   26-Feb-1999 12:06:06
 PROLOG.MAC.35     75 191130(7)  26-Feb-1999 12:09:53
 PUP.MAC.2        112 285831(7)  10-Nov-1995 16:51:18
 PUPNM.MAC.1       15 37103(7)    5-Mar-1994 17:24:53
 PUPPAR.MAC.1       2 3243(7)    14-Jan-1994 10:08:32
 PURGE.MAC.1        1 431(7)     13-Jan-1994 21:42:19
 REL7.MAC.1         1 582(7)     26-Dec-1993 14:00:06
 RSXSRV.MAC.1      20 49361(7)    7-Mar-1994 11:38:22
 SCAMPI.MAC.4     135 345117(7)   7-Sep-1998 17:43:36
 SCAPAR.MAC.2      46 116079(7)   7-Sep-1998 17:39:20
 SCHED.MAC.78     114 291216(7)   7-Sep-1998 18:22:27
 SCPAR.MAC.1        7 16605(7)   11-Feb-1988 15:33:06
 SCSJSY.MAC.4      75 190126(7)  24-Apr-1996 15:08:56
 SERCOD.MAC.18      9 22038(7)   21-Jun-1996 14:45:57
 SETCOD.MAC.1       1 14(7)      13-Jan-1994 22:45:39
 SETSPD.MAC.15     62 156528(7)  25-Nov-1997 18:17:26
 SITE.MAC.2         1 279(7)     19-Dec-1995 17:25:07
 STG.MAC.75       142 362792(7)   5-Oct-1999 12:44:31
 SWPALC.MAC.31     16 38759(7)    9-Oct-1997 18:30:08
 SYSERR.MAC.12     13 31144(7)    6-Aug-1998 10:17:13
 TAPE.MAC.17       81 205121(7)  27-Mar-1999 11:50:39
 TCPBBN.MAC.14     27 66753(7)   26-Feb-1999 13:01:01
 TCPCRC.MAC.3       6 14886(7)   26-Nov-1997 11:06:42
 TCPJFN.MAC.20     36 90821(7)    1-Mar-1999 14:54:11
 TCPTCP.MAC.26     94 240002(7)   1-Mar-1999 15:00:04
 TD1DEF.MAC.17      9 22209(7)   13-Jan-1999 12:01:58
 TIMER.MAC.3        9 22170(7)   21-Dec-1995 18:09:24
 TTYDEF.MAC.4       9 20615(7)   26-Nov-1997 11:44:27
 TTYSRV.MAC.24    102 259349(7)  15-Dec-1997 16:02:00
 TVTSRV.MAC.13     26 65480(7)    2-Jan-1998 17:42:07
 VEDIT.MAC.1        1 16(7)      11-Mar-1994 11:40:29
 VERSIO.MAC.488     2 2668(7)     5-Jun-1999 22:32:58
 XNI10I.MAC.1       4 8366(7)    30-Oct-1995 09:42:24
 XNI20I.MAC.23     16 39343(7)    1-Dec-1999 08:21:57
 XNIPAR.MAC.7       7 17303(7)   19-Feb-1998 15:40:30

 Total of 5432 pages in 136 files

The page count allows for a maximum of 13,905,920 bytes of source.  The binary
is called MONITR.EXE:

 TOAD:<SYSTEM>
 MONITR.EXE.102560     504 258048(36)  3-Jan-2000 11:15:23

The command processor, called EXEC.EXE, is a user-level program, like the Unix
shell, but we should compare it, as well:

   DXX:<7.EXEC>
 EDEXEC.MAC.68      1 33(7)      11-Oct-1999 15:57:32
 EXEC0.MAC.6       61 155695(7)  26-Aug-1997 15:52:31
 EXEC1.MAC.14      56 141625(7)  18-Mar-1998 16:48:07
 EXEC2.MAC.4       22 54129(7)    1-Feb-1996 17:57:50
 EXEC3.MAC.1       30 75358(7)   20-Apr-1988 14:23:14
 EXEC4.MAC.5       21 53240(7)   27-Nov-1996 10:28:05
 EXECCA.MAC.7      18 45657(7)   20-Mar-1998 16:42:05
 EXECCS.MAC.3      49 125420(7)  19-Jun-1997 21:27:54
 EXECDE.MAC.5      18 43740(7)   26-Aug-1997 11:40:08
 EXECED.MAC.1      11 26995(7)   20-Apr-1988 16:44:42
 EXECF0.MAC.1       1 1077(7)     7-Mar-1988 15:23:00
 EXECGL.MAC.6      11 25699(7)   29-Jun-1996 15:25:09
 EXECHS.MAC.1      41 104775(7)   6-Dec-1985 23:06:52
 EXECIN.MAC.21     57 143977(7)  20-Mar-1998 17:32:35
 EXECMI.MAC.2      23 57943(7)   26-Mar-1996 18:54:17
 EXECMT.MAC.2      16 40213(7)   10-Jun-1996 18:13:09
 EXECP.MAC.17      63 160910(7)  18-Mar-1998 16:31:23
 EXECPM.MAC.1      21 52520(7)   21-Mar-1985 11:06:19
 EXECPR.MAC.5      16 38582(7)   13-Aug-1997 16:07:53
 EXECPS.MAC.1       8 18836(7)    9-Mar-1981 19:49:13
 EXECQU.MAC.2      50 126568(7)  28-Aug-1997 11:05:51
 EXECSE.MAC.10     64 161609(7)   3-Sep-1997 10:05:13
 EXECSU.MAC.21     92 233862(7)  11-Oct-1999 15:56:19
 EXECTT.MAC.1       5 11239(7)   29-Mar-1985 20:02:19
 EXECVR.MAC.3       2 3117(7)    25-Jan-1996 18:20:08
 MICPRM.MAC.1       1 2319(7)     7-Mar-1988 15:28:21
 SUDEF.MAC.3        2 2886(7)    25-Jan-1996 18:20:03

 Total of 760 pages in 27 files

for a maximum size of 1,945,600 bytes; the binary is

   TOAD:<SYSTEM>
 EXEC.EXE.4207       176 90112(36)  11-Oct-1999 15:59:45

For comparison, the Tops-10 monitor sources (which I have to report in Tops-20
sizes, because we aren't running a Tops-10 system these days) are as follows:

   DXX:<TOPS10.MONITOR>
 APRSER.MAC.200    76 193304(7)  21-Nov-1996 17:06:52
 AUTCON.MAC.24     37 94706(7)   11-Jan-1997 17:03:46
 CLOCK1.MAC.107    59 149970(7)   7-Jan-1997 15:27:13
 COMCON.MAC.41    143 365343(7)  10-Jun-1997 19:19:25
 COMDEV.MAC.19     46 116714(7)  12-Dec-1996 18:51:58
 COMMOD.MAC.31     51 130162(7)  23-Oct-1996 11:56:42
 COMMON.MAC.303   159 406885(7)   8-Jan-1997 16:52:00
 CORE1.MAC.43      31 76828(7)    3-Jan-1997 14:22:33
 CPNSER.MAC.33     37 94068(7)   17-Oct-1996 12:10:07
 CTXSER.MAC.10     46 117509(7)   4-Oct-1996 12:37:06
 D36COM.MAC.2      55 138993(7)  11-Dec-1996 12:23:11
 D36PAR.MAC.2      28 71595(7)   11-Dec-1996 17:57:51
 DATMAN.MAC.7      15 36148(7)    7-Nov-1996 14:30:02
 DEVPRM.MAC.23     29 73290(7)   22-Oct-1996 16:42:17
 DNADLL.MAC.2      44 110931(7)  10-Dec-1996 17:19:58
 ERRCON.MAC.21     56 142521(7)   3-Sep-1996 17:56:49
 ETHPRM.MAC.3      10 4688(36)   15-Feb-1988 23:53:00
 ETHSER.MAC.3      35 87282(7)   11-Dec-1996 10:39:30
 ETHUUO.MAC.2      26 64535(7)   24-Apr-1990 23:08:00
 F.MAC.29           2 2856(7)    10-Dec-1996 17:42:18
 FAKEND.MAC.1       1 108(7)      6-Jun-1995 16:50:39
 FAKKNI.MAC.3       2 2719(7)    10-Dec-1996 14:51:10
 FAKSRV.MAC.21      3 7563(7)    11-Dec-1996 17:57:50
 FAKSTG.MAC.27      8 18227(7)   28-Mar-1997 20:49:38
 FAKT20.MAC.96      6 15101(7)   10-Jun-1997 20:22:22
 FILFND.MAC.4      77 196720(7)   8-Aug-1996 10:18:44
 FILIO.MAC.61     140 356152(7)   8-Nov-1996 14:30:11
 FILUUO.MAC.9     116 295929(7)  16-Oct-1996 14:52:06
 FTEDDT.MAC.7       1 462(7)     24-Jun-1996 14:19:43
 FTEJBD.MAC.1       1 53(36)     15-Feb-1988 23:54:00
 FTSIM.MAC.1        1 12(7)      21-Jun-1995 15:15:58
 FYSORG.MAC.1       1 152(7)     11-Sep-1995 15:49:17
 IMPDDB.MAC.2       5 11061(7)   12-Aug-1996 16:51:33
 IMPINT.MAC.3       9 21227(7)   12-Aug-1996 17:02:29
 IMPMAC.MAC.6      75 189557(7)  12-Aug-1996 17:06:28
 IMPSER.MAC.4      55 138598(7)  12-Aug-1996 14:57:17
 INTGEN.MAC.7       6 13431(7)   18-May-1995 15:02:51
 IPCSER.MAC.12     49 125099(7)  28-Oct-1996 12:15:35
 IPSER.MAC.6       24 60389(7)   11-Aug-1996 14:03:59
 KNISER.MAC.32     55 140528(7)  16-Jan-1997 16:19:07
 LATSER.MAC.2      97 247178(7)  10-Dec-1996 14:26:49
 LLINKS.MAC.1      90 46056(36)  15-Feb-1988 23:54:00
 LLMOP.MAC.1       60 30253(36)  29-Nov-1990 11:36:00
 LLMPRM.MAC.1       2 964(36)    15-Feb-1988 23:54:00
 LOKCON.MAC.22     37 93861(7)    4-Nov-1996 11:15:31
 MACSYM.MAC.3      39 98080(7)    2-Feb-1988 03:19:00
 MACTEN.MAC.2      12 28671(7)    8-Aug-1996 16:51:23
 MONBEG.MAC.21      2 4675(7)    11-Dec-1996 14:06:50
 MONGEN.MAC.23     77 196138(7)  12-Dec-1996 18:41:50
 MONPFH.MAC.12     19 48087(7)   16-Dec-1996 17:03:30
 MPXSER.MAC.1      20 49935(7)    2-Oct-1990 23:40:00
 MSISER.MAC.3       3 6288(7)     1-Jun-1995 19:43:08
 NETDEF.MAC.6       3 7125(7)    31-Jul-1996 16:47:53
 NETDEV.MAC.2     106 271179(7)  10-Dec-1996 14:27:25
 NETMAC.MAC.6      11 26585(7)    8-Aug-1996 16:52:43
 NETPRM.MAC.1      19 47855(7)   24-Apr-1990 23:09:00
 NETSER.MAC.2     112 284657(7)  11-Dec-1996 14:20:20
 NETSUB.MAC.6      19 46403(7)   12-Aug-1996 16:44:04
 NRTSER.MAC.1      49 24785(36)  15-Feb-1988 23:55:00
 NTMAN.MAC.2       46 116866(7)  10-Dec-1996 14:27:43
 NULFEK.MAC.2       5 10999(7)   11-Dec-1996 14:31:40
 ONCMOD.MAC.27     68 172567(7)  27-Aug-1996 18:23:59
 PARAMS.MAC.6       6 14370(7)   27-Oct-1995 10:07:43
 PARNEW.MAC.2       1 223(7)      8-Nov-1995 22:15:49
 PARTD1.MAC.5       2 3251(7)     8-Nov-1995 21:40:37
 PATCH.MAC.5        1 1173(7)    16-Jul-1996 18:13:02
 PHXKON.MAC.256    20 50079(7)   10-Jun-1997 19:18:08
 PSISER.MAC.16     25 63861(7)   16-Dec-1996 15:08:39
 PTMACS.MAC.3       8 20115(7)    1-Jun-1995 19:44:29
 PTMSAV.MAC.3       6 14505(7)    1-Jun-1995 19:44:39
 PTTEST.MAC.3       1 356(7)      1-Jun-1995 19:44:47
 PTYSER.MAC.1       8 20140(7)   24-Apr-1990 23:09:00
 QUESER.MAC.4      38 95482(7)    6-Nov-1996 10:00:33
 REFSTR.MAC.8      26 65736(7)   14-Aug-1996 10:05:04
 REL1.MAC.6         1 324(7)     12-Mar-1979 11:15:43
 ROUTER.MAC.1      85 215160(7)  24-Apr-1990 23:09:00
 RTTRP.MAC.5       12 30162(7)    2-Sep-1996 11:59:03
 S.MAC.144        112 284353(7)  10-Dec-1996 16:52:32
 SCHED1.MAC.22     60 151961(7)  16-Oct-1996 14:54:31
 SCLINK.MAC.2      86 219971(7)  11-Dec-1996 16:28:44
 SCMUUO.MAC.2      30 75173(7)   11-Dec-1996 12:08:08
 SCNSER.MAC.23    158 404446(7)   7-Nov-1996 15:51:45
 SCPAR.MAC.1        6 2856(36)   15-Feb-1988 23:56:00
 SEGCON.MAC.31     87 222289(7)   4-Nov-1996 14:57:46
 STTEST.MAC.3       1 240(7)      1-Jun-1995 19:49:24
 STVARS.MAC.3       1 2260(7)     1-Jun-1995 19:49:29
 SWPSER.MAC.24     10 23357(7)   23-Oct-1996 15:29:12
 SYSINI.MAC.143    72 183281(7)  16-Jan-1997 17:35:20
 T20FAK.MAC.2       2 3575(7)     1-Jun-1995 19:50:44
 TAPSER.MAC.20     23 57576(7)   18-Nov-1996 16:34:12
 TAPUUO.MAC.56     59 150554(7)   8-Nov-1996 15:05:49
 TCPSER.MAC.11     57 145447(7)  11-Aug-1996 14:19:48
 TD1SER.MAC.42      7 15851(7)   25-Nov-1996 13:49:22
 TMPUUO.MAC.1       5 2306(36)   15-Feb-1988 23:56:00
 USRONC.MAC.9      12 29014(7)   25-Oct-1996 14:32:49
 UUOCON.MAC.50    172 437824(7)   7-Nov-1996 15:59:10
 VEDIT.MAC.5        1 16(7)      11-Mar-1994 11:40:29
 VERSIO.MAC.5       3 6050(7)     8-Nov-1995 22:26:21
 VMSER.MAC.141    162 413919(7)  16-Dec-1996 15:12:15
 XNI10I.MAC.4       4 8760(7)    27-Sep-1996 16:30:20

 Total of 3886 pages in 100 files

This is a maximum of 9,948,160 bytes, and includes the command interpreter,
which is part of the monitor.  The binary, named SYSTEM.EXE, is

   DXX:<TOPS10.MONITOR.BUILD>
 SYSTEM.EXE.213   528 270336(36) 10-Jun-1997 20:26:58

 Total of 528 pages in 1 file

Finally, general operating system services (print spooler, magtape and disk
mounting, etc.) are provided by the GALAXY subsystem, a collection of programs
that communicate among each other and with the EXEC by IPCF.  All of this is
user-level code (and much of it is common between Tops-20 and Tops-10).

   DXX:<7.GALAXY>
 BATCON.MAC.1      59 148726(7)   8-Mar-1988 13:31:12
 BATLOG.MAC.1       8 18750(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:33:07
 BATMAC.MAC.1       7 15692(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:33:42
 D60JSY.MAC.1      55 140132(7)   5-Jul-1988 12:04:30
 D60UNV.MAC.1      15 35943(7)   11-Mar-1988 12:45:27
 GALCNF.MAC.2       3 5920(7)    11-Sep-1996 14:41:37
 GALGEN.MAC.4      19 47759(7)   11-Sep-1996 14:40:59
 GLXCOM.MAC.1       9 22946(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:44:40
 GLXFIL.MAC.1      29 72134(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:45:23
 GLXINI.MAC.1       4 9221(7)     8-Mar-1988 13:46:31
 GLXINT.MAC.2      18 45136(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:33:39
 GLXIPC.MAC.1      23 57364(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:47:55
 GLXKBD.MAC.1      17 42633(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:48:25
 GLXLNK.MAC.1       8 17995(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:49:06
 GLXMAC.MAC.2      55 139554(7)  15-Feb-1996 17:35:21
 GLXMEM.MAC.1      13 32945(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:50:30
 GLXOTS.MAC.1       3 6588(7)     8-Mar-1988 13:50:59
 GLXPUR.MAC.1       1 13(7)       5-Jan-1996 16:19:23
 GLXSCN.MAC.1      45 114742(7)   8-Mar-1988 13:51:30
 GLXTXT.MAC.1      19 47607(7)    8-Mar-1988 13:52:49
 LPTCLU.MAC.1      42 105414(7)   8-Mar-1988 14:00:26
 LPTDQS.MAC.1      29 71918(7)    6-May-1988 07:26:07
 LPTMAC.MAC.2      11 27303(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:38:24
 LPTSPL.MAC.3      86 217650(7)  19-Feb-1996 12:25:25
 LPTSUB.MAC.2      19 47820(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:40:20
 LPTUSR.MAC.1       5 10426(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:06:08
 MOUNTR.MAC.6     186 475819(7)  20-Dec-1996 15:51:01
 MTRCFS.MAC.1      18 45467(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:08:13
 MTRDDB.MAC.1       8 18208(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:09:10
 MTRFOO.MAC.1       1 237(7)     20-Dec-1996 15:29:39
 MTRMAC.MAC.6      24 59325(7)   20-Dec-1996 16:58:09
 MTRUSR.MAC.1       2 3067(7)     8-Mar-1988 14:11:29
 NEBMAC.MAC.1      35 88865(7)    5-May-1988 15:19:41
 NEBULA.MAC.1     127 324068(7)  14-May-1988 11:04:18
 OPR.MAC.2         24 61121(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:17:20
 OPRCMD.MAC.2      17 41962(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:41:59
 OPRERR.MAC.1       2 3701(7)     8-Mar-1988 14:19:22
 OPRLOG.MAC.1      12 28763(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:20:08
 OPRNEB.MAC.1      12 28275(7)    5-May-1988 15:39:30
 OPRNET.MAC.1       5 12444(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:21:06
 OPRPAR.MAC.1      35 88621(7)   14-Apr-1988 19:20:03
 OPRQSR.MAC.4      43 108104(7)  20-Dec-1996 10:38:34
 OPRSCM.MAC.3      15 38325(7)   20-Dec-1996 10:37:55
 ORION.MAC.2       86 218936(7)  15-Feb-1996 17:21:30
 ORNMAC.MAC.2      46 117226(7)  20-Dec-1996 10:37:16
 PLEASE.MAC.1      10 24941(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:48:32
 QSRADM.MAC.3      42 105379(7)   8-Sep-1997 15:55:31
 QSRDSP.MAC.2      54 136227(7)   1-Feb-2000 12:45:05
 QSRFSS.MAC.1       9 22185(7)    8-Mar-1988 14:51:04
 QSRIPC.MAC.1       4 7924(7)     8-Mar-1988 14:51:22
 QSRMAC.MAC.4      79 201377(7)  20-Dec-1996 10:39:32
 QSRMDA.MAC.2     126 321789(7)  15-Feb-1996 17:23:47
 QSRMEM.MAC.1       3 6502(7)     8-Mar-1988 14:53:17
 QSRNET.MAC.2      27 68129(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:24:31
 QSRQUE.MAC.2      46 117139(7)  15-Feb-1996 16:37:40
 QSRSCH.MAC.2      35 87523(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:26:37
 QSRT20.MAC.4      37 93038(7)   13-Aug-1997 16:09:00
 QUASAR.MAC.2      16 39014(7)   15-Feb-1996 17:29:12
 TCPSPL.MAC.11     58 146243(7)  13-Aug-1997 10:56:25

 Total of 1846 pages in 59 files

This is a maximum of 4,725,760 bytes of code; the pieces we use on our Tops-20
systems total out at

   TOAD:<SYSTEM>
 QUASAR.EXE.13     63 32256(36)   1-Feb-2000 12:59:24
 ORION.EXE.8       45 23040(36)  20-Dec-1996 11:02:49
 MOUNTR.EXE.11     43 22016(36)  20-Dec-1996 17:05:19
 BATCON.EXE.7      18 9216(36)   20-Dec-1996 11:12:20
 TCPSPL.EXE.13     19 9728(36)   31-Jul-1997 13:03:30
 LPTSPL.EXE.20     46 23552(36)  20-Dec-1996 11:21:36

 Total of 234 pages in 6 files

So there you have it.

Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
				Customer Advocacy, XKL LLC, 1993-2000
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now


Article 8223 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: ooh, a *real* flamewar :)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 00 09:25:15 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <ALDERSON.00Apr17121153@netcom2.netcom.com>,
   alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
>In article <38F8CF1D.CC325EF1@MA.UltraNet.Com> "Alan H. Martin"
><AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:
>
>> "
>> TITLE MAKLIB - RELOCATABLE BINARY FILE MANIPULATION PROGRAM
>
>>	SUBTTL	/HRB/CLRH/MFB/MS/PY	5-SEP-85
>
>>	SUBTTL  I.L. GOVERMAN (VERSION 2A, PATCHING TOOL)  18-AUG-78
>
>>	SUBTTL  JANET EGAN (SCAN INTERFACE)/JIE 10-JAN-75
>>	SUBTTL  E. YOURDON (FUDGE2 PROGRAM)
>
>> "
>
>Umm, 'scuse me, but is that *the* E. Yourdon?  ED Yourdon, of "structured
>design" fame/infamy?
>
>I thought he was an IBMer...

FUDGE2 is probably on the Customer Supported Tape (I tried
to put everything there for the customers especially 
after I knew we were going to get axed).  I have no
idea how we got FUDGE since that was there when I met
my first PDP-10.  I suspect that one or two people
could have gone to work for IBM after exposure to DEC :-).

A lot of software wasn't written in house.  Note that
the CUSP tape _originally_ was a distribution of stuff
that was useful in-house and NOT deemed to be part
of the system support.  That was way before the so-called
Category A, B, and C support was created.

/BAH


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8349 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: pechter@news.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Dec Tape subsystems
Date: 30 Apr 2000 11:32:10 -0400
Organization: Unknown
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <8ehjlq$96e@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>
References: <8dafrq$h1b$1@news.metronet.com> <B52968C5966815FA65@pm9-168.his.com> <8e17m9$hf1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ebv2f$4qp20$1@fido.engr.sgi.com>
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In article <8ebv2f$4qp20$1@fido.engr.sgi.com>,
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>
>Reminds me of the old story about a standard "trick" interview
>question -- supposedly attributed to a DEC engineering manager --
>for a hardware logic-design candidate:  Ask him if he's ever
>designed a magtape controller. If he says, "Yes", then ask him
>if he'd be willing to do it again. If he says, "Yes", then *DON'T*
>hire him!!
>
>
>-Rob

That explains the TU10 design and the TM10...  DEC didn't do tapes right
until the TE16/TM03 and they blew it again on the Tape Stretcher 11.
The response of any field service guy going out on a TS-11 call
was Tough S**t.  They finally fixed it up in an ECO about the time they
stopped making the drives and shipped the TU80's and TS[V]05's.

DEC Field Service school note:

When they designed the TU10 they placed the heads directly in the middle
of two guide rollers.  Where's the most vibration and jitter in the path
of the tape -- right there.

The TU10 designers took the folks from the RK05 and asked them to do
a tape drive... Nothing like a tape drive designed by disk folks.

The finally fixed in in the TE10/TE16 -- DEC's best non-DECtape drive
reliable, solid... but slow.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?


Article 8420 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Thu, 04 May 00 08:37:59 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 77
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In article <G93Q4.1071$Fr.31187@news4.giganews.com>,
   "Timothy Stark" <sword7@speakeasy.org> wrote:
>Hello Folks:
>
>I read all articles about this subject "PDP-10 
>Emulator".  Well, there are existing PDP-10 emulators.   
>I was able to get my emulator to print "BOOT>"
>prompt with KL paging system mode turned on.   
>My goal is print a dot.

<grin>  That's a very nice goal.

>
>I am writing my KS-10 emulator in progress and am implementing
>RH11/TM02/TM03 interface and testing it.   I played with KSBOOT.EXE and it
>worked so well and did not crash my emulator. :-)   I entered '/tm02' at a
>BOOT> prompt and got result message - "No TM02 or TM03 drive" before I
>started to implement my RH11 interface.
>
>Yes, I will release my KS10 emulator under GPL license soon but I do not
>know when yet.  Then, I will work on it to expand to KL10 emulator then
>PDP6/KA10/KI10 later.   I learned that my monitor sources support KL10 too
>but was compiled with KS10 default.

Sigh!  You have so much to learn and I'm not sure how I can
teach you everything that's in my head.  Every once in a while
I wish I could do a brain-to-brain dump and this is one of them.

Let me try.  I don't want to detract you from programming while
I talk about our folklore.  

There isn't a "default" per se in a monitor build.  We used 
feature test switches to turn particular pieces of code on or
off.  If the feature test switch KS10 was turned on, then
all code enclosed in a ...blitz...my brain just went south...
Sorry, I can't remember the ASCII lines in the *.MAC files.

Does somebody remember how these were written and worked?





>  I got them from Tim's archives.  I know
>that a sin (fear) controls some authors keep their emulators from people's
>hands.

Well, as somebody who also worked in the maintenance group, 
customers could be a PITA w.r.t. support.

>
>Indeed, my KS10 microcode sources, monitor sources, TOPS-10 sources and
>other resources do help my KS10 emulator development so much.

Yup.  And remember to read the comments in those sources.  It's
how we documented just about everything one needed to know
about the hardware foibles.  This is true especially in
TW's case; he never remembered what he did yesterday and
had to keep comments to remind.  JMF, on the other hand,
could remember everything, including every line of code
that he wrote.  So his commenting style was quite different.

After working on writing a new device driver or something,
TW had a TECO macro that would open up the sources that he
wrote, display the next uncommented line, and wait for
insertion.  That was how TW always finished up a project.
There should still be quite a few lines that say "beats
the shit outa me" for the instructions where he couldn't
remember why it was needed.  TW always needed a long
incantation breathed at him before he could remember stuff.
Jim was adept at figuring out the shortest incantations to
get TW to remember.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8424 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: 36th anniversary of 36 bits?
Date: 04 May 2000 10:21:19 -0400
Organization: Cornell University Program of Computer Graphics
Lines: 21
Sender: westin@DIESEL
Message-ID: <uln1qxuow.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>
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jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) writes:

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10005031128570.7726-100000@bony.umtec.com>, 
> root@bony.umtec.com says...
> >
> >
> >Apparently, May 10th is the 36th anniversary of 36 bits...
> >Anyone got anything planned?
> 
> And the 7094, introduced in September 1962, had how many bits?

About the same number as the Univac 1108, and the IBM 704, 709, and
7090 which all preceded the 7094. Since we're in the PDP-10 newsgroup,
I assume that he was talking about the anniversary of 36-bit machines
from Digital Equipment Corporation. The first of which would be the
PDP-6, I believe.

-- 
-Stephen H. Westin
Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not
represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.


Article 8423 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11,comp.os.rsts,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-11 9-Track Tapes
Date: 4 May 2000 14:01:59 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 25
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References: <8epj68$4nf$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> <3910228B.49615006@trailing-edge.com> <8eq82h$qdu$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <8eqa58$i2$1@null.agames.com>
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In article <8eqa58$i2$1@null.agames.com>,
Mike Albaugh <albaugh@agames.com> wrote:
: Frank da Cruz (fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:
: : In article <3910228B.49615006@trailing-edge.com>,
: : Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
: : : Bill Gunshannon wrote:
: ...
: 	And on the other end of the "wacko spectrum" were the
: DECUS FORTH implementations that used "big gaps" to implement
: a random-access device on a 9-track tape. _Those_ were the
: days, boyo.
: 
Geezer time!  Well, I don't know about Forth, but speaking of
random access, we had a Macro program that did the same thing:
let you use a 9-track as if it were a DECtape.

I always thought DECtapes were pretty neat.  If DEC-20s had
supported DECtapes (and if there had been a way to put remote
DECtape drives in public areas) there probably would never
have been a Kermit, since all Kermit was in the beginning was
a way for students to have removeable media to save their
DEC-20 class files at the end of each semester before we wiped
the RP06's.

- Frank


Article 8502 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 16:16:35 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Corporation
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Message-ID: <39177503.ACDDE0F@cfht.hawaii.edu>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

> In article <3913651E.784BB2A3@cfht.hawaii.edu>,
>    Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
> >I was regularly surprised by what was there (no remarks about my
> >intelligence, please :-) .
>
> Oh, yeah.  You were one of those MACRO people...OK, I won't
> have any remarks about your intelligence.  MACRO, SCAN, WILD,
> DDT, and (I think) FUDGE were CUSPs that nobody in their
> right mind would touch.

Hmmm, I touched MACRO, SCAN, and WILD :-) .......

> >  Cross compilers provide the same source
> >languages for different machines - just the back end is
> >different.  Cross assemblers are complete rewrites.  DMN
> >may be able to start from scratch and build an equivalent
> >program.  IMHO anyone else would have to translate the
> >MACRO-10 source to C/whatever line by line.  I could write
> >one from scratch that did simple programs, but TOPS-10 made
> >good use of the macro facility.
>
> For those of you who don't know our secret codes :-), DMN is
> David M. Nixon who was our LINK expert.  He was also the
> person who JMF went to whenever JMF wrote a macro.  Dave
> would spend an average of 3 days debugging JMF's macro.

You seem to forget that he also wrote SORT-10 when he got
bored with LINK-10 :-)  I convinced him that MACRO-11
style local labels were neat so he wrote procedure and local
label macros for SORT-10.  They were fun :-)



Article 8505 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Tue, 09 May 00 08:11:23 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <8f8qs4$lu7$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <gc3Q4.48508$MB.1052567@news6.giganews.com> <3911aeb5$0$208@nntp1.ba.best.com> <8euh0q$n46$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3913651E.784BB2A3@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8f0taq$kkg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39177503.ACDDE0F@cfht.hawaii.edu>
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In article <39177503.ACDDE0F@cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In article <3913651E.784BB2A3@cfht.hawaii.edu>,
>>    Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >I was regularly surprised by what was there (no remarks about my
>> >intelligence, please :-) .
>>
>> Oh, yeah.  You were one of those MACRO people...OK, I won't
>> have any remarks about your intelligence.  MACRO, SCAN, WILD,
>> DDT, and (I think) FUDGE were CUSPs that nobody in their
>> right mind would touch.
>
>Hmmm, I touched MACRO, SCAN, and WILD :-) .......

Definitely a guy who likes self-inflicted pain ;-).  Pete
Conklin wrote those last two.  It caused JMF to declare that
no managers should ever be allowed to write code after
promotion.  The problems were that PFC didn't have time
to do all that follow-up work (like debugging, fixes,
and _documentation_) because he got side-tracked by 
his day job.


>> >  Cross compilers provide the same source
>> >languages for different machines - just the back end is
>> >different.  Cross assemblers are complete rewrites.  DMN
>> >may be able to start from scratch and build an equivalent
>> >program.  IMHO anyone else would have to translate the
>> >MACRO-10 source to C/whatever line by line.  I could write
>> >one from scratch that did simple programs, but TOPS-10 made
>> >good use of the macro facility.
>>
>> For those of you who don't know our secret codes :-), DMN is
>> David M. Nixon who was our LINK expert.  He was also the
>> person who JMF went to whenever JMF wrote a macro.  Dave
>> would spend an average of 3 days debugging JMF's macro.
>
>You seem to forget that he also wrote SORT-10 when he got
>bored with LINK-10 :-) 

Nah, I didn't forget that.  We (JMF and I) would have lunch
with him on Thursdays; I remember grumblings that ISAM was
a four-letter word.

> I convinced him that MACRO-11
>style local labels were neat so he wrote procedure and local
>label macros for SORT-10.  They were fun :-)
>

Aaahhh!!!  Hackers.  What we wouldn't do without 'em.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8526 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Resources for Documentation
Date: Wed, 10 May 00 08:10:42 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <8fbf73$51i$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8f6nln$csu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8f8r27$lu7$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <391893EE.AF64CC74@cfht.hawaii.edu>
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In article <391893EE.AF64CC74@cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> The MIG wasn't something that a user would want or
>> use.  Only those who had to do a cold start boot would need
>> it.  I'm not even sure that TOPS-10 customers ever did a
>> cold start installation.  When their systems were delivered,
>> manufacturing had already set up the disks, boot sectors,
>> etc.
>
>Maybe, but I suspect more than one of us had to do it anyway,
>either planned or unplanned :-)
>Nothead (no I was not the one who typed "DEL [1,1]" :-)
>
ROTFLMAO!  You're dating yourself.  I remember that happening
once, too.  Soon after that the system got upgraded to Level
D and all those problems went away.

I bet you youngsters didn't know that once upon a time, the
operator on the console could login to [1,1].  I even worked
on that area when I had to enter 2000 PPNs and make up passwords
for each of them.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8589 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: RH11 Interface - disk access - need more information...
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:46:13 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Corporation
Lines: 10
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John Everett wrote:

> Also went to the referenced web site and looked at the source. I noticed
> someone edited my name from the SUBTTL line in KSSER. Instead it reads DMCC
> (Dave McClure?) and DBD (Doug Detroy?). Sigh! :-(

That wasn't the first time that happened (and probably not the last either).
Mine disappeared from PIP's SUBTTL long before the KS :-)
Nothead



Article 8596 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: RH11 Interface - disk access - need more information...
Date: Sat, 13 May 00 08:01:42 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <JyUS4.8760$ZE4.165687@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <391AB9B3.3039ECD7@trailing-edge.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com 
>says...
<snip>

>While it's kind of fun to read my own code after all 
>these years, 

<grin>  At TW's going away party, he was presented with
DTXSER.  Pat White and he spent about an hour after everyone
(except a couple of us) left going through the code and giggling.

>now I'm not 
>so sure MAPIO is the right place to find the relevant 
>information. Perhaps I'm 
>thinking about a routine originally written for the DC10 
>that I modified for the KS. :-)
>
>Also went to the referenced web site and looked at the 
>source. I noticed someone edited my name from the 
>SUBTTL line in KSSER. Instead it reads DMCC 
>(Dave McClure?) ...

I don't remember him doing any MCO work.

> ...and DBD (Doug Detroy?). Sigh! :-(

There was a reason that TW's nickname for him was Doug
Destroy.  

My apologies for not catching that sin.  If any of us had,
we would have written an MCO to put it right.  Remember the
time that Don Lewine put his initials in all of the sources,
including the disk device drivers and FILxxx?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 8609 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for EXE/RDI specifications
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:19:56 -0400
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <391EEE4C.1BAFA18D@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <D8rN4.23825$MB.494446@news6.giganews.com> <8e6ir8$2kj$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <7uKN4.22043$VR.517144@news5.giganews.com> <8e98qj$nb7$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <7uKN4.22043$VR.517144@news5.giganews.com>,
>    Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
...
> >  If you see first bytes in
> >your exe files with '00 3F 7x', you have corrupted files.  If you see
> >estimated '00 FF F8', then it is a good exe file.  That's why it always
> >contain 1776 (octal) in first left halfword in its exe file's contents.
> 
> Didn't that 1776 indicate the difference between LINK V5 and
> LINK V6?  I'm getting wisps of recollections of setting in
> a design review that was murder.

"
	SUBTTL	MISC. NON I/O -- .EXE FILE FORMAT

;BLOCK TYPES IN .EXE FILE DIRECTORY

.SVEND==1777	;END OF DIRECTORY
.SVDIR==1776	;DIRECTORY BLOCK
.SVSTA==1775	;ENTRY VECTOR BLOCK
"

On the -10, the 1775 entry vector directory entry was only written by
LINK for extended addressing programs (and LINK-10 V6 introduced its
extended addressing on the -10).  On the -20, entry vectors could be
created by LINK when loading directly to core for both section 0 and
extended programs, so I presume that SSAVE% might end up writing them
to disk for either kind of program (and that functionality existed as
far back as LINK V5).
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 8798 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: death of architectures...
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:36:19 -0400
Lines: 66
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John Wilson wrote:

> I remember seeing a blurb in one of the PDP-10 handbooks where they're proud
> of the fact that one of the (FORTRAN?) compilers knows how to use a very
> high percentage of the PDP-10 instruction set.  Kind of a worthless metric
> (what really counts is how effectively the instruction set and addressing
> modes are used), but it's nice to see some effort.  ...

When Gordon Bell, Alan Kotok, Tom Hastings and R. Hill wrote their
article _The Evolution of the DECsystem 10_ (p. 44-63) for the Jan-78
Computer Architecture issue of CACM (V21, #1), the word went out to
supply Gordon with FORTRAN-10's coverage of the instruction set.

An attempt was made.  However,  most of the instructions are generated
by adding mode bits maintained in tree nodes:

	%(*****TO COMPUTE THE VAL OF AN ARITHMETIC NODE.
		DEPENDS ON THE VALS A2IMMEDFLG,MEMCMPFLG,VALTYPE, AND OPERSP OF THE PARENT ...
	********)%
MACRO	ARITHOPIX(PNODE)=
	BEGIN
		(.PNODE[A2IMMEMCMPFLGS]^4+.PNODE[OPRSP2]^2+.PNODE[VALTP1]+... OPGARI ...)
	END$;

to instruction patterns:

OPGARI:	-1,,ADFX
	-1,,ADFL
	-1,,ADDPKI
	-2,,ADCM
...
	ADFX=.			;ADD INTEGER
	FRRFC,,FROMA2
	ADD	0,0
;
	ADFL=.			;ADD FLOATING PT
	ADCM=.			;ADD COMPLEX (next 2 instrs)
	FRRFC,,FROMA2
	FADR	0,0
;
	FRRFC,,FROMA2
	FADR	1,1
...
	ADDPKI=.		; add double-prec
	ADDPMI=.		; (to memory - next 2 instrs)
	FRRFC,,FROMA2
	DFAD	0,0

However, the correct answer is not trivial to derive.


>...  These days the tendency
> is to blame the hardware for the compiler's shortcomings, and delete features
> that the stupid compiler writers never got the hang of.

Perhaps more than 10 years ago, William Wulf wrote a good article on
the thesis that instruction sets with regularity make it easier for
compilers to generate good code.  It backs up the point with a litany of
stupid quirks in instruction sets which just make things harder.

The philosophy of RISC architectures are to make code fast at compile
time, rather than investing in a lot of circuit complexity to make
implausible operations fast at run time.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 8817 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Henry W. Miller" <hmiller@iols.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.org.decus,comp.emulators.misc
References: <sgs33e14oog147@corp.supernews.com> <8epvur$rep$1@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <39108b99$0$206@nntp1.ba.best.com> <39112a5a@news2.starnetinc.com> <3917354f$0$221@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3921366D.63DE7F92@hotmail.spamlite.low-salt.low-fat.com> <39213818.F258CA84@netinsight.se> <FunpFJ.7KB@spcuna.spc.edu> <3921E21F.855C2380@cfht.hawaii.edu> <lCwU4.920$s4.78594@petpeeve.ziplink.net> <wwg0rgn2jv.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <FpLU4.1011$s4.83221@petpeeve.ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:19:54 -0700
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Dave,

"David Cressey" <david@dcressey.com> wrote in message
news:FpLU4.1011$s4.83221@petpeeve.ziplink.net...
> Not that strange,  must have been a used one.  Or maybe my memory is
faulty
> on this detail.

    If I recall, it was the "Frankenstein" (my nickname, not DEC's) machine,
built
from the remains of several KA-10's.  System 26, as I recall, not to be
confused
with the KL 1026.

    It was about the most reliable machine in Marlboro at the time, IIRC.
It did
eventually get moved to Bedford, with the rest of the Ed Services machines.

    Damn, that was a fun machine to play with.  And it could actually
support a
respectible number of users at one time.  And I also seem to recall that
they
used it for the TOPS-10 Monitor Internals Class for a while.

> After all, it was over 20 years ago.  I remember checking with the student
> to make sure the DECtape drives  were DECsystem-10 DECtapes,  and not the
> DECtapes that went with the PDP-11 front end
> for KL systems at that time.
>

    As David mentioned, it WAS over 20 years ago...

>
> Jim Thomas wrote in message ...
> >>>>>> "David" == David Cressey <david@dcressey.com> writes:
> >
> >Late 70's?  KA-10?  Strange :-)
> >
> >Nothead
>
>
>
>

    Best,

-HWM





Article 8737 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Fred Nordhorn <fnordhor@polaris.umuc.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.org.decus,comp.emulators.misc
Subject: Re: Big Old Storage (was: PDP-10 Emulator)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:54:40 -0400
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000518164922.4904A-100000@polaris.umuc.edu>
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Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8737 alt.folklore.computers:157361 comp.org.decus:6217 comp.emulators.misc:62810

DEC in the OLD day of the PDP-10 (KA-10) had a device call a RD-10
1 platter disk drive fixed heads about 5 or 6 ft across, and a
good size hole in the center for the hub assy.

They make Nice coffee Tables and the center hole... Find a nice
flower pot that will fit in it.


On 17 May 2000, Stephen H. Westin wrote:

> "Mike Yankus" <Mike_Yankus@itd.sterling.com> writes:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > What indeed was the largest tape/disk peripheral devices ever built
> > (single tape, single spindle disk)?  I have heard about drums that
> > had a horizontal axis and were several yards long.  The rotational
> > momentum was something to worry about.  I vaguely remember a horror
> > story about trying to move one of these things while it was spinning.
> 
> Sounds like the UNIVAC FASTRAND: see
> <http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/univac/fastrand.html>.
> 
> At Ford's Engineering Computer Center, someone hung up a disk platter
> from the Philco 212 for display; it was over 6 feet in diameter, as I
> recall.
> 
> -- 
> -Stephen H. Westin
> Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not
> represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.
> 
> 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Fred H. Nordhorn   (301)-985-7400     | Humans are merely a life Support
Information Technology Support Associate  |     System for their CATS!!!
    Office of Information Technology      |------------------------------
University of Maryland University College |     My Comments Are My Own,
  Email to:  fnordhor@polaris.umuc.edu    |       Not the UNIVERSITY.
 WEB: http://polaris.umuc.edu/~fnordhor <<---<< Under MAJOR construction
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 8720 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Charles Richmond <richmond@dallas.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.org.decus,comp.emulators.misc
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:26:07 -0700
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
Lines: 32
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Jeff DelPapa wrote:
> 
> In article <8fube9$hk1$1@reuters.plano.sterling.com>,
> Mike Yankus <Mike_Yankus@itd.sterling.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >What indeed was the largest tape/disk peripheral devices ever built
> >(single tape, single spindle disk)?  I have heard about drums that
> >had a horizontal axis and were several yards long.  The rotational
> >momentum was something to worry about.  I vaguely remember a horror
> >story about trying to move one of these things while it was spinning.
> >
> 
> While not as large as some drums, there are examples of single disk
> platters 1.25 meters in diameter.  These were usually head-per-track
> drives, used for swapping.  At one point, a platter from such a drive
> was turned into a coffee table at SAIL.
> 
> I have heard of such a drive getting disturbed, and shedding a
> platter.  Since I haven't heard any more details, I assume it was an
> urban legend.  (neat story, had it leaving thru a concrete wall)
> 
Could you be refering to Bryant disk drives???  My understanding is that
the Bryant drive had one huge platter in the range of 1.25 meters across.
This platter spun verically instead of horizontally, and it did spin 
fairly fast.  I have heard stories of these platters getting loose and
cutting through walls, etc.  IMHO this is *not* an urban legend...

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


Article 8731 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa)
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator
Message-ID: <FurM2J.BrB@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:03:55 GMT
References: <sgs33e14oog147@corp.supernews.com> <8fube9$hk1$1@reuters.plano.sterling.com> <FupozJ.DCE@world.std.com> <3923A91F.35469A6F@dallas.net>
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In article <3923A91F.35469A6F@dallas.net>,
Charles Richmond  <richmond@dallas.net> wrote:
>Jeff DelPapa wrote:
>> 
>> In article <8fube9$hk1$1@reuters.plano.sterling.com>,
>> Mike Yankus <Mike_Yankus@itd.sterling.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >What indeed was the largest tape/disk peripheral devices ever built
>> >(single tape, single spindle disk)?  I have heard about drums that
>> >had a horizontal axis and were several yards long.  The rotational
>> >momentum was something to worry about.  I vaguely remember a horror
>> >story about trying to move one of these things while it was spinning.
>> >
>> 
>> While not as large as some drums, there are examples of single disk
>> platters 1.25 meters in diameter.  These were usually head-per-track
>> drives, used for swapping.  At one point, a platter from such a drive
>> was turned into a coffee table at SAIL.
>> 
>> I have heard of such a drive getting disturbed, and shedding a
>> platter.  Since I haven't heard any more details, I assume it was an
>> urban legend.  (neat story, had it leaving thru a concrete wall)
>> 
>Could you be refering to Bryant disk drives???  My understanding is that
>the Bryant drive had one huge platter in the range of 1.25 meters across.
>This platter spun verically instead of horizontally, and it did spin 
>fairly fast.  I have heard stories of these platters getting loose and
>cutting through walls, etc.  IMHO this is *not* an urban legend...
>

Bryant was one maker, I think Control Data also made a huge plattered
disk.

By the time the story about the loose platter had got to me, it was
devoid of sufficient specifics (where, how it came lose, when, etc)
that it seemed prudent to consider the possiblility that it was
legend.  If you have a more complete version of the story, I would
love to hear it.

-dp-
Organizer, The New England Rubbish Deconstruction Society; The NERDS
We are the first US team to compete in the British Scrapheap Challenge
competition.  www.the-nerds.org


Article 8746 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: gmt@CS.Arizona.EDU (Gregg Townsend)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: 18 May 2000 20:53:26 -0700
Organization: University of Arizona CS Department, Tucson AZ
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Message-ID: <8g2drm$4ln@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>
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In article <FurM2J.BrB@world.std.com>, Jeff DelPapa <dp@world.std.com> wrote:
>
> Bryant was one maker, I think Control Data also made a huge plattered
> disk.

We had two CDC 6603 disk units at Arizona, with 1-meter platters on a
horizontal axis.  They were sometimes called "the Bryant disks", and
I always assumed that CDC had just relabeled them.

We never had a platter go spinning away, just head crashes and one
impressive loss of hydraulic fluid.

   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Gregg Townsend         Staff Scientist      The University of Arizona
   gmt@cs.arizona.edu     Computer Science     Tucson, Arizona, USA


Article 8858 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-14
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Can someone explain to me how a tape drive works? :P
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 08:54:18 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <8h5i9v$fhd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10005150937310.23649-100000@bony.umtec.com> <391FCC6B.51C08B6D@trailing-edge.com> <392007C7.BBB335FD@netinsight.se> <391FD5DA.7CC4C3A2@trailing-edge.com> <392034B9.6E22D4EA@sprintmail.com> <8frghf$7r6$1@top.mitre.org> <aek-1605000744180001@haxrus.apple.com> <8frrso$mj6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8fsm8k$fp8@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <vDZW9OAskqI5Ew5m@webseen.demon.co.uk> <8fufbd$3bi$1@top.mitre.org> <Fupqo0.EKH@spcuna.spc.edu> <8g0q0u$mnq$1@top.mitre.org> <3923B5EF.7F8724E1@trailing-edge.com>
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In article <3923B5EF.7F8724E1@trailing-edge.com>,
   Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>Joe Morris wrote:
>> 
>> Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com> writes:
>> 
>> >  Indeed. But actual runaways (aside from the blank/incompatible tape
>> >ones) were quite rare, and when they happened, it was usually some sort
>> >of hardware problem in the transport and a timer might not have been
>> >able to stop them anyway.
>> 
>> There was one application (task, not program) where you could be assured
>> of a runaway if you were lucky: copying an unlabeled tape where you
>> had no idea of how many files it contained.  You started a raw 
tape-to-tape
>> copy utility, then waited until the source drive went into runaway mode
>> and then hit the RESET button.
>> 
>> There was always the possibility that the source tape was completely
>> full (meaning that the EOT strip had been detected when it was being
>> written).  In this case the "TAPE INDICATE" lamp would light up as
>> the reflective strip was detected (but as noted in a previous posting,
>> the CPU would not receive an indication of this); an experienced
>> operator would have noted that the source tape was nearing its end
>> and would have a couple of seconds to hit RESET before the end of
>> the tape came off the supply spool.  In practice the copy task was
>> successful in this case because the last of the source tape data
>> would have already passed under the read head before the operator
>> could press RESET even if a finger was already resting on the button.
>
>You assume that the reels of tape are exactly the same in length - this
>is pretty true, the major tape manufacturers rarely give you much more
>than required. 

Nope.  They weren't.  And because of this fact, our Release Engineering
people _always_ made their masters on "short tapes".  The way they
did it was to pull many, many feet of tape off the tape that was
doomed to be a master and attach a new silver BOT.

> But you also assume that the tape drives are adjusted
>precisely to the correct density, which isn't always true.  It's not
>uncommon to find a few percent variation in data density between drives
>- this is well within the tolerance of the data separators, but
>if you're copying one truly full input tape to a same-length output
>tape, you may well find that it doesn't all fit.

That's one of the computing laws of Murphy.  It's guaranteed that
the one tape you pick for a master will be the longest tape
in the building.

>
>When this happens, I just interchange the input and output drives,
>and viola!, it fits with a few feet leftover :-).

Not a good procedure. :-)

/BAH


Article 8859 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.org.decus,comp.emulators.misc
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 09:10:47 GMT
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In article <aek-1605001740530001@haxrus.apple.com>,
   aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote:
>In article <FuoFu8.FA0@spcuna.spc.edu>, Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com>
>wrote:
>
>>   you might be able to get there by taking the SCSI interface
>> > out of one of the SCSI 9-track drives (at least, I know Qualstar does 
it by
>> > makign their SCSI interface drive the Pertec interface on the back 
side) and
>> > hanging it on a 7-track drive.
>>
>
>Good luck FINDING a 7 track drive. The last one I heard about was a 
>7 track TU10 on eBay last year. I'm REALLY happy that I don't have any
>tapes that are 7 track :-)
>
>I remember hearing a story about Stanford scrambling around trying to
>find a 7 track TU10 in the late 80's to try to read SAIL tapes.
<snip>

Why a TU10?  That would guarantee an inability to read.  We
had a TU71 (TU70 7-track) that we had to have just because
we had customer who owned tapes that were written on 7-track
drives, may own a 7-track drive, or might own 7-track drives.
It was one of the distasteful side effects of backwards
compatibility support.  Having this drive on our system (it
was the only 7-track in DEC) was a part of the downsizing of
OSes.  One of the distribution options of our software was
7- or 9- track magtapes.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 4288 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Spider Boardman <spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:27:05 -0400
Organization: Duchy of Wabesylvan Obspauk
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
 
> Oh, yeah.  You were one of those MACRO people...OK, I won't
> have any remarks about your intelligence.  MACRO, SCAN, WILD,
> DDT, and (I think) FUDGE were CUSPs that nobody in their
> right mind would touch.

Gee, thanks, Barb.

(I was "RCB", the last DEC hacker of SCAN, WILD, COMPIL, and DDT.)

-- 
Spider Boardman (at home)		      spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US
The management (my cats) made me say this.   
http://www.ultranet.com/~spiderb


Article 4289 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Daniel Seagrave's e10
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:33:32 -0400
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Joe Smith wrote:

>                 Multiplication and Division
...
> PDP-10 specific aspects of multiplication:
>     The input values are 36 bits each, 1 sign bit and 35 data bits.
>     The result of a multiply is 70 data bits and 2 sign bits.
>     The MUL instruction is used when the input numbers are considered to
>         be between 0.0000 and +/- 0.99999999997089616954 [1.0 - 2**(-35)];
>         it keeps the most significant 1+35 bits of the result and throws
>         the low-order half away.
>     The IMUL instruction is used when the input numbers are considered to
>         be integers from 0 to 2**35-1; it keeps the least significant
>         1+35 bits of the result and triggers an Integer Overflow if the
>         high-order half is not all zeroes or not all ones.
...
> PDP-10 specific aspects of division for DIV:
>     The dividend is a 72-bit quantity from two consecutive accumulators.
>     The dividend and divisor are both considered to be numbers between
>         0.0000 and +/- 0.99999999997089616954 .
>     Trigger Integer Overflow if quotient is not in the same range.
> 
> PDP-10 specific aspects of division for DIV:
>     The dividend and divisor are both considered to be integers.
>     The quotient goes to the specified destination.  If the destination
>         is an accumulator, put the remainder in the next accumulator.

I think I saw more MUL's and DIVs used in pairs to multiply an integer
by a ratio.  If you wanted to compute X*(N/D), you'd multiply X by N and
then divide the result by D.  Some combinations of X and N could never
overflow a word, but some could.  When overflow could never happen,
you'd see:

	IMUL	X,N
	IDIV	X,D	; (Remainder in X+1)

When overflow could happen in the intermediate result, but not in the
final value, you'd see:

	MUL	X,N
	DIV	X,D	; (Remainder in X+1)

Sometime between fall '77 and spring '81, there was a run of edits like
this one to OPSER:

"
SUBTTL	FRANK NATOLI/DAL/PFC/DAL/JE/RHR/CDO/CGN/DC/MRB 22-AUG-85
...
;COPYRIGHT (c) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 1970,1971,1972,1973,1974,1975,1976,1977,1978,1979,1980,1984,1985,1986. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
...
;111)	OVERFLOW OCCURS WHILE CONVERTING THE SYSTEM UP TIME TO
;	MILLISECONDS IF THE SYSTEM HAS BEEN UP FOR 160
;	CONSECUTIVE HOURS OR LONGER.
;	[SPR 10-27243]
...
;GET THE UPTIME
;USES T1 AND T2 ANSWER IN T1

GETUPT:	MOVE	T1,[%CNSUP]		;GET SYSTEM UPTIME (7 SERIES)
	GETTAB	T1,			;GET IT
	 CAIA				;FAILED, MUST BE PRE 7 SERIES
	JRST	GETUP1			;GOT TIME, CONVERT IT
	MOVE	T1,[%NSUPT]		;THIS ROUTINE DOES
	GETTAB	T1,			; THE OBVIOUS THING
	  SETZ	T1,			; OF GETTING THE UPTIME
GETUP1:	MULI	T1,^D1000		;THEN CONVERTING TO
	DIV	T1,JIFSEC		;MILLISECONDS.
	POPJ	P,			;RETURN
"

No one noticed this problem ("OPSER auto jobs don't fire when the
system's been up a while(*) for perhaps 10 years.  Probably because it
took over a decade for TOPS-10 systems to become reliable enough to stay
*up* for more than a week.  (Or it took a decade for someone to become
brave enough to blow off weekly preventative maintenance).

(*) 159 hours (== 6 days, 15 hours), 4 minutes, 22 seconds,
18 jiffies and 6 milliseconds.

If people had been thinking straight, as soon as the first bug had been
found, some poor slob should have been detailed to ferret out all the
millisecond<=>jiffy conversions in the source pool and fix them,
instead of letting them get fixed in dribs and drabs.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 4290 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Daniel Seagrave's e10
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 00 07:49:36 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <3942980C.AF3BD1CD@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>Joe Smith wrote:
>
>>                 Multiplication and Division
<snip OPSER fix>

>No one noticed this problem ("OPSER auto jobs don't fire when the
>system's been up a while(*) for perhaps 10 years.  Probably because it
>took over a decade for TOPS-10 systems to become reliable enough to stay
>*up* for more than a week.  (Or it took a decade for someone to become
>brave enough to blow off weekly preventative maintenance).

It was called SMP.  That allowed field service to remove the
pieces of hardware that was on the PM schedule WITHOUT a 
reload...something TOPS-20 couldn't do.

>
>(*) 159 hours (== 6 days, 15 hours), 4 minutes, 22 seconds,
>18 jiffies and 6 milliseconds.
>
>If people had been thinking straight, as soon as the first bug had been
>found, some poor slob should have been detailed to ferret out all the
>millisecond<=>jiffy conversions in the source pool and fix them,
>instead of letting them get fixed in dribs and drabs.

After all this time, you still have no idea how our business
was run.  There wasn't anybody who had time to do that;
the internal politics wouldn't allow _one_ poor slob to
fix everything; and, at that time, just because we had
a fix for everything, didn't mean it got out to the
field in bits.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 4291 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 00 07:54:18 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <39427A69.67CFCACD@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>,
   Spider Boardman <spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
>> Oh, yeah.  You were one of those MACRO people...OK, I won't
>> have any remarks about your intelligence.  MACRO, SCAN, WILD,
>> DDT, and (I think) FUDGE were CUSPs that nobody in their
>> right mind would touch.
>
>Gee, thanks, Barb.

<grin>  'ey, Spider.  Long time, no hear.  I was talking about
the days before your time ;-).

>
>(I was "RCB", the last DEC hacker of SCAN, WILD, COMPIL, and DDT.)

Well, things got better after we only had one version of them
in the field.  When I was "trained", there were at least a dozen
of SCANs and WILDs and COMPIL and DDT were under the control
of the language group whose management really wasn't interested
in messing with the itty-bitty pieces that were classified as
Category B support.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 4294 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 07:46:35 GMT
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In article <wwn1kqn4f8.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "Spider" == Spider Boardman <spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US> writes:
>
>    Spider> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>    >> Oh, yeah.  You were one of those MACRO people...OK, 
>    >>I won't have any
>    >> remarks about your intelligence.  MACRO, SCAN, WILD, DDT, and (I
>    >> think) FUDGE were CUSPs that nobody in their right mind would 
>    >>touch.
>
>    Spider> Gee, thanks, Barb.
>
>    Spider> (I was "RCB", the last DEC hacker of SCAN, WILD, COMPIL, and
>    Spider> DDT.)
>
>He has a good point, Barb, you forgot COMPIL in your list :-)

Right.  I missed that :-).  I doubt that I ever opened 
COMPIL (other than to do that blasted copyright mess).  Did
it retain the old style of AC naming convention?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 08:13:45 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <wwln09mbze.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes:
>
>    /BAH> Right.  I missed that :-).  I doubt that I ever opened COMPIL
>    /BAH> (other than to do that blasted copyright mess).  Did it retain
>    /BAH> the old style of AC naming convention?
>
>You mean the random AC naming convention?  

<grin>  It may have been random, but it was consistently
random.

>Of course, it was never
>rewritten :-)  AC names meant something back then :-)  One just couldn't
>tell what to save.

Well, that was one good thing that came out of Conklin's 
SCAN and WILD (at least I think that's when it started).
About the same time, a memo came out dictating what and
how ACs got labelled.  John?  Do you remember how that
all got started?  I don't remember when Conklin did
the code.  I just remember JMF mumbling that managers
shouldn't be midnight hackers when the bugs never got
fixed.  And that was in 1975 or '76 when we were in
Marlboro.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <8i7otl$k3n$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>>Of course, it was never
>>rewritten :-)  AC names meant something back then :-)  One just couldn't
>>tell what to save.
>
>Well, that was one good thing that came out of Conklin's 
>SCAN and WILD (at least I think that's when it started).
>About the same time, a memo came out dictating what and
>how ACs got labelled.  John?  Do you remember how that
>all got started?  I don't remember when Conklin did
>the code.  I just remember JMF mumbling that managers
>shouldn't be midnight hackers when the bugs never got
>fixed.  And that was in 1975 or '76 when we were in
>Marlboro.

AC name rationalization came along very early in the Level-D (5 Series) 
monitor. I don't recall whether the new universal AC names were defined in Tom 
Hastings' spec LEVELD.MEM or not. As I recall (dimly) Don Black actually 
edited in the AC name changes in every module.

SCAN and WILD, being outside the purview of the monitor group (at least at 
their inception) got whatever AC names PFC thought appropriate at the time.

BTW, how many remember SCANNER? I believe this was either a predecessor of 
SCAN, or a mutation. At the time I did the mods to DAEMON to support VM, it 
still was linked with SCANNER, although at that time SCAN and WILD were in 
more common use. I didn't have the time/guts to try to replace SCANNER with 
SCAN at that time. And yes, I know SCANNER is a seven character name, but I 
can't recall if it was actually called SCANER, or SCANNR, or SCNNER.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 4297 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: hsnewman@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Manuals discovered!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:31:45 GMT
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For the emulator developers, is anyone out there in Minneapolis?  The
Charles Babbage Institute, University of Minnesota has a Computer
Product Manuals Collection (CBI 60), which contains:

PDP-10:
Reference manuals (Box 39.E.4.B)
Software manuals (Box 39.E.4.B)
Operating system manuals (Box 39.E.4.B)
Time-Sharing Monitors (Box 39.E.5.A)
Real-time Use of PDP-10 Monitors, 30 p., 1967. (Box 39.E.5.A)
Software manuals (Box 39.E.5.A)
Language manuals (Box 39.E.5.A)

and

PDP-10 Interface Manual, 200 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 Peripheral Interchange Program, 35 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 Installation Manual, 60 p., ca. 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 AID (Algebraic Interface), 150 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 DDT-10, 100 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 FORTRAN IV, 150 p., 1969. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 MACRO-10, 100 p., 1967. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 Single User Monitor System, 75 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 MA10 Core Memory Maint. Manual, v.1, 100 p., 1969. (Box
39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 Summary Reference Manual, 100 p., 1967. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 DF10 Data Channel, 40 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 DC10 Data Line Scanner Maint. Manual, 125 p., 1971. (Box
39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 RC-10 Disk Synchronizer-Adapter, 75 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 TECO (Text Editor/Corrector), 40 p., 1968. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 TECO, 40 p., 1970. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 VP10 Display Control Maint. Manual, 100 p., 1969. (Box 39.F.7.A)
PDP-10 Applications in Science, v.2, 200 p., n.d. (Box 39.F.7.A)

and
DECsystem 10:
  Hardware manuals (Box 39.E.3.A)
  Language manuals (Boxes 39.E.3.A, 39.E.3.B)
  Users handbooks (Box 39.E.3.A)
  Applications manuals (Box 39.E.3.B)
DECsystem 20:
  Reference manuals (Box 39.E.3.B)
  Site preparation manual (Box 39.E.3.B)
  Language manuals (Box 39.E.3.B)

According to http://www.cbi.umn.edu/inv/corpman.htm, the collection is
unrestricted!

Ok, we have a source to alot of good manuals, now the logistics...
-HN


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


Article 4304 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Status: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 10:30:19 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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References: <BY325.186071$MB.3453686@news6.giganews.com>
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In article <BY325.186071$MB.3453686@news6.giganews.com>,
   Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>Hello Folks:

Ah, there you are!  :-)  I was wondering what had happened.

<snip requests I can't help with>

>I learned ethernet support in TOPS-10 v7.04.  I am looking for ethernet
>specs.

You might have a difficult time with that.  The ethernet was
implemented via DECnet and we (TOPS-10 monitor group) had to
fight tooth and nail to ship the monitor sources of our
ethernet implementation.  We didn't even try to publish
spec information other than user mode stuff.  We lost the
battle of shipping the BLISS-36 code.  One of Palmer's 
"convert everything to cash" actions was to sell the DECnet
part to another company.  I have no idea what the status
of existing DECnet code is.
>
>Thank you!

Good to e-see you.  :-)

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 4303 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: ITS-Lovers mailing list?
Organization: NoCrew Laboratories
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Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:
> Thank you for inform about ITS-Lovers mailing list.  I tried to send
> subscription request but I did not heard anything from them.  :-(

Me too.  Nothing happened.

> Also, I am looking for ITS Reference 1.5 manual.

ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps


Article 13 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Status: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 07:37:54 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <9jc25.219701$VR.3380770@news5.giganews.com>,
   Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> In article <BY325.186071$MB.3453686@news6.giganews.com>,
>>    Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>>>Hello Folks:
>
>> Ah, there you are!  :-)  I was wondering what had happened.
>
>I was so busy because I figured out about multi-device mapping, etc.
>RH11 inteface is halfway completed.
>
>> You might have a difficult time with that.  The ethernet was
>> implemented via DECnet and we (TOPS-10 monitor group) had to
>> fight tooth and nail to ship the monitor sources of our
>> ethernet implementation.  We didn't even try to publish
>> spec information other than user mode stuff.  We lost the
>> battle of shipping the BLISS-36 code.  One of Palmer's 
>> "convert everything to cash" actions was to sell the DECnet
>> part to another company.  I have no idea what the status
>> of existing DECnet code is.
>
>Hmmmm.  I have DECnet v4 package for TOPS-10 v7.04 but is binary only
>execpt generator's sources.

Oh, no.  You don't want to go there.  That's the fxxxxx MCB.
Our MCB approach made the committee who designed a horse look
smart.  The MCB was yet another -11 and all of those binaries
are output from the <gag, barf> BLISS-36.  Stick with the
ethernet stuff and Phase IV of DECnet if you think you need
to that.  The MCB was stopped at Phase III and it sucked.

Sorry, Stu.  It wasn't your fault you got handed a lemon for
specs.

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 19 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Status: PDP-10 Emulator
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 08:27:59 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 19
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References: <BY325.186071$MB.3453686@news6.giganews.com> <8iala0$d2e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9jc25.219701$VR.3380770@news5.giganews.com> <8icvj0$67h$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <A%o25.175481$701.2284173@news4.giganews.com>
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In article <A%o25.175481$701.2284173@news4.giganews.com>,
   Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> Sorry, Stu.  It wasn't your fault you got handed a lemon for
>> specs.
>
>Hmmm. Do you mean that Stu asked you to not send snipts?

Huh?  What's a snipts?  No, Stu did a lot of the MCB work
for the 7.03 ship (I think it was 7.03..may have been 7.02).  
The MCB was foisted upon us (TOPS-10) and it was a RPITA to
certify _and_ to package.  I've always had the notion that,
if it's difficult to package, the soft/hardware design is 
not elegant.  So far, I haven't encountered anything that
contradicts my opinion.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 18 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
References:  <Ahp25.189367$MB.3513790@news6.giganews.com>
From: Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net>
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119
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Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:

>Also, I found sources under ANF-10 directory.  They looks like PDP-11
>assembly to me.  What is ANF-10?  That is for PDP-10/PDP-11 interface
>for DECnet, etc? Right?

That was code derived initially as a customer special (Abbott Labs) that
got migrated into the release stream.  I took care of it from 1976-1978
or so, I'm the wrong one to ask about what it did in 7.0x releases.
It postdated ARPAnet (but the developers ignored those protocols), it
predated DECnet (except for DDCMP), so most of it doesn't match anything
at all.  When I left, it supported DL10 and DTE20 interfaces between
-10 and -11.  The -11 code supported terminals and printers.

It was required code for KL10s if you wanted anyone to use the machine
other than the console.  (Or whenever it was that DC10 support got
dropped.)  That made it the first network product that DEC shipped that
was necessary to use the system as it was meant to be used.

I implemented the DECnet compatible frob, err port, but had completely
forgotten about it years later when I went on a business trip for a
different employer to visit people I had met on an earlier trip for
DEC.  I think my successors added code to it and may have made it useful.

	-Ric Werme


--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


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Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
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"Me (again)" <David@Clam.Central.Org> writes:

>On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:53:10 GMT, Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:

>>It was required code for KL10s if you wanted anyone to use the machine
>>other than the console.  (Or whenever it was that DC10 support got
>>dropped.)  

>I seem to remember the DC76 working just fine. 128 users per.

Um, (Barb - help!)  I think either the DL10 (which the DC76 used for
the 10-11 interface) either stopped being produced or one of the
models shipped with internal memory or no original I/O bus.
Or maybe I argued that a system with a DC76 was a computer network
itself.

Oh dear - memory getting too fuzzy!
--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 24 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:36:04 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 74
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References: <gc3Q4.48508$MB.1052567@news6.giganews.com> <3911aeb5$0$208@nntp1.ba.best.com> <8euh0q$n46$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3913651E.784BB2A3@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8f0taq$kkg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39427A69.67CFCACD@Orb.Nashua.NH.US> <wwn1kqn4f8.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <8i52ue$39a$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <wwln09mbze.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <8i7otl$k3n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9tN15.1211$vP1.42677@ord-read.news.verio.net> <8iij1j$rmt$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <394D7EF1.703112AD@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <394D7EF1.703112AD@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <9tN15.1211$vP1.42677@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
>>    jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>....
>> >BTW, how many remember SCANNER? I believe this was either a
>> >predecessor of SCAN, or a mutation. At the time I did the mods
>> >to DAEMON to support VM, it still was linked with SCANNER,
>> >although at that time SCAN and WILD were in
>> >more common use. I didn't have the time/guts to try to
>> >replace SCANNER with SCAN at that time.  ...
>
>"
>TITLE	DAEMON - PROGRAM TO SERVICE USER REQUESTS V23(1025) - 31-MAY-88
>SUBTTL	D 
BLACK/DAL/RCC/JSL/CER/RLD/SMM/BAH/PMW/WRS/KPY/TJW/ISM/DBD/JLG/GMU/RKB
>....
>;COPYRIGHT (c) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 
1971,1978,1979,1980,1981,1982,1985,1986,1987.
>"
>
>At that time, DAEMON wasn't linked against a command scanning package -
>it contained a rudimentary one.  However, the package entry point was
>named ``.ISCAN''.  Here's why:
>
>"
>;071	COMPLETES IMPLEMENTATION OF 6.01 SUPPORT AND INCLUDES THE
>;	SOURCE FOR SCANER AS PART OF DAEMON.MAC.
>....
>;536	RIP OUT SCANER AND REPLACE WITH REASONABLE COMMAND SCANNER.
>;	MAKE MINOR NECESSARY CHANGES TO THE DEVIL HIMSELF, ...
>"
>
>
>> What I can't figure out is why somebody would want DAEMON
>> to have a user interface.  I remember that DAEMON was
>> always referred to as the swappaable part of the monitor,
>> but I had always thought that all interfaces were supposed
>> to be via system calls, not commands.
>
>"
>COMLST:
>	SIXBIT	.DCORE.
>	SIXBIT	.DUMP.
>	SIXBIT	.SAVE.
>	SIXBIT	.SSAVE.
>	SIXBIT	.E.
>	SIXBIT	.D.
>	SIXBIT	.VERSIO.
>	SIXBIT	.OSAVE.
>	SIXBIT	.OSSAVE.
>"
>
>By then, DUMP only worked on non-KL-paging systems, and [O][S]SAVE, E,
>D and VERSION were allegedly not supported by DAEMON.

DAEMON ran detached.  There was no use of a command scanner.
When a program shipped a request to DAEMON, part of the
argument list of that call was the index into that table
so a similar table.  I still would like to have my original
question answered.  Somewhere along the way, DAEMON's 
functional spec was modified, either by intention or
by attrition.  My guess was the latter, but it would be
nice to know what the original intent was.

The edit history doesn't give me enough information because
the edit you wanted to prove your point with didn't have
a date so I can't even begin to tell who did the edit.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 35 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 Console simulator
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 09:02:25 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <8j7gcd$a1d$6@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8OL35.31$UU1.190@client> <fvU35.56744$Ft1.3171328@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <39567B9D.D755BCCA@prescienttech.com>
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In article <39567B9D.D755BCCA@prescienttech.com>,
   "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com> wrote:
<snip>

>   Am I the only one who really _liked_ the KI?  The machine seems
>somewhat "unloved" in the -10 hierarchy....

TW liked the KI.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 08:28:03 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 47
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In article <394fe31f.0@news.kivex.com>,
   "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> Also, I found sources under ANF-10 directory.  They looks like PDP-11
>> assembly to me.  What is ANF-10?  That is for PDP-10/PDP-11 interface
>> for DECnet, etc? Right?
>>
>> -- Tim Stark
>
>Yes. ANF-10 was Advanced Network Functions for the TOPS-10
>operating system. What you have, probably, is the source code for
>the DN8x series of PDP-11 based front end controllers.

Right.  That ANF-10 save set was all of the non-PDP-10 code.

> In my day
>these were connected to the -10 through a DL-10 interface, and
>implemented (among other things) the LCG version of DECNET
>which was generic DECNET-10.

Heh.  In other words, it was an efficient implementation...
lots of functionality without code bloat, i.e., non-BLISS.

>
>The sources were compiled using a PDP-11 cross assembler that
>ran under TOPS-20, 

I don't know about the -20, it was always compiled, linked
and saved under TOPS-10.

> ...and generally would not compile correctly
>or load correctly using a native PDP-11 assembler and loader
>without significant work. The TOPS-10 programs MACY11 and
>MACDLX come to mind, but it's been 24 years...

And, IIRC, I shipped those executables on the Customer
Supported Tape.  Wasn't there another cross-assembler?  It
seems to me that MACY11 was a big company secret for quite
a while.  

If you want to see how ANF-10 was built, there should be
control files (we did nothing by hand for the benefit of
our customers).  Look for *.CTL

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 5 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Ahp25.189367$MB.3513790@news6.giganews.com> <394fe31f.0@news.kivex.com> <8iq8eh$t3l$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:15:02 -0400
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>
> > In my day
> >these were connected to the -10 through a DL-10 interface, and
> >implemented (among other things) the LCG version of DECNET
> >which was generic DECNET-10.
>
> Heh.  In other words, it was an efficient implementation...
> lots of functionality without code bloat, i.e., non-BLISS.

True, true. The code was tight, because it had to run without
much memory and in real time. It was the kind of hand-crafted
assembler code that C-fanatics always claim could be better
done in a higher-level language, but which never seems to
actually work when done that way.

> >The sources were compiled using a PDP-11 cross assembler that
> >ran under TOPS-20,
> I don't know about the -20, it was always compiled, linked
> and saved under TOPS-10.

Yes. You're exactly right -- my fingers slipped. TOPS-10. It would
also assemble on TOPS-20, though.

>
> > ...and generally would not compile correctly
> >or load correctly using a native PDP-11 assembler and loader
> >without significant work. The TOPS-10 programs MACY11 and
> >MACDLX come to mind, but it's been 24 years...
>
> And, IIRC, I shipped those executables on the Customer
> Supported Tape.  Wasn't there another cross-assembler?  It
> seems to me that MACY11 was a big company secret for quite
> a while.
>

Well, it was SUPPOSED to be a big secret. Actually, MACDLX
was the cross-assembler since something like 1972, (it didn't support
some kinds of relocation that MACY11 did). MACY11 wasn't much
of a secret, though. The MACDLX documentation actually mentioned
MACY11 long before it was supposed to be talked about to customers,
and since some customers actually read the documentation, they wanted
the better cross-assembler. Only DEC management thought it was a secret.

> If you want to see how ANF-10 was built, there should be
> control files (we did nothing by hand for the benefit of
> our customers).  Look for *.CTL
>
> /BAH

Well, it will depend very much on the year (and version) of the
code he has. If the code was pre-DN8x, then there may not be
control files (remember the years of beating up on DAS to try
to get them to do things in anything like a standard way?).

None of us were real PDP-11 programmers, so the code looks
a lot like PDP-10 code with operand order switched around.
It probably gave PDP-11 jocks the shivers just to read it. But
it ran like the very blazes, and was far far more reliable than
standard DECNET. Did more, too, and was far far easier
to debug. It maintained all sorts of status tables just in case
there was a crash, something that -11-land DECNET devices
never did.

There was a hacked-up version of DDT (DDT11) and
you could read and write the remote station's memory
(and modify the -11 code on the fly if you dared).

I recollect that the code at one point had dozens and dozens
of feature test switches to make a DN80 or DN81, or DN82,
or DN87, or whatever. At one point or another we rewrote all
that so that there were macros which turned on and off the
various features, and which also assigned remote device numbers
(previously done by hand, which was both stupid and a real
pain).






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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
Date: 21 Jun 2000 23:10:08 -1000
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>>>>> "John" == John Wilson <wilson@dbit.com> writes:

    John> In article <39514a2d.0@news.kivex.com>, Phil Gagner
    John> <gagner@svg-law.com> wrote:
    >> The MACDLX documentation actually mentioned MACY11 long before it
    >> was supposed to be talked about to customers, and since some
    >> customers actually read the documentation, they wanted the better
    >> cross-assembler. Only DEC management thought it was a secret.

    John> I can't wrap my mind around this -- why would the existence of a
    John> cross assembler be a secret?  I would think the existence of
    John> *some* kind of xasm would be pretty obvious, no one expects DEC
    John> to bootstrap each new architecture by hand-assembling a native
    John> assembler and keying it in on the front panel...  Just because
    John> the xasm is actually worth using is a reason to keep it secret?

There were two of them.  MACDLX was the first and was a .MAC->.BIN
assembler.  That was what was officially available for the first -11 front
ends and remotes.  Then there was MACY11/LINK[XY]11 (wasn't there a MACX11
first?) which was a real relocating assembler/linker.  I didn't do any -11
stuff while I was in Marlboro (74-75), and I knew about MACY11 by at least
1978, IIRC.

I gather the DN8x stuff was MACY11 with CTL files?  I was working kind of
pre-DN8x (I think what we had got that name later, but we didn't start with
it - though I don't remember what name we ordered).  I used only MACDLX.
(We had a DL-10 with 1 11/40 front end.  I did LSI-11 remotes supporting
printers and terminals and DOS/VS RJE to our -10 with an 11/23 :-)

Nothead


Article 8 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:55:59 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
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Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
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Phil Gagner wrote:
> > > ...and generally would not compile correctly
> > >or load correctly using a native PDP-11 assembler and loader
> > >without significant work. The TOPS-10 programs MACY11 and
> > >MACDLX come to mind, but it's been 24 years...
> >
> > And, IIRC, I shipped those executables on the Customer
> > Supported Tape.  Wasn't there another cross-assembler?  It
> > seems to me that MACY11 was a big company secret for quite
> > a while.
> >
> 
> Well, it was SUPPOSED to be a big secret. Actually, MACDLX
> was the cross-assembler since something like 1972, (it didn't support
> some kinds of relocation that MACY11 did). MACY11 wasn't much
> of a secret, though. The MACDLX documentation actually mentioned
> MACY11 long before it was supposed to be talked about to customers,
> and since some customers actually read the documentation, they wanted
> the better cross-assembler. Only DEC management thought it was a secret.

Indeed, the earliest version of the MACDLX documentation that
I have says:

 MACDLX.DOC -- Documentation for MACDLX V622
 December 1972



 1.0  FUNCTION OF MACDLX

 MACDLX is a powerful MACRO assembler which runs  on  DECsystem-10  and
 generates  code  for  the  PDP-11.   MACDLX should be used to generate
 binary files for the DC75 and DC44.  MACDLX is  a  subset  of  MACY11.
 MACY11  is  a  software  product  of Digital Equipment Corp.  The only
 features in MACY11 not found in  MACDLX  are  those  which  deal  with
 relocatable code.

Those who are interested can find MACDLX.DOC and MACDLX.MAN at

  http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/

on the tape BB-X128B-SB, the CUSP BIN AND SRC tape.  For some
strange reason, MACDLX.DOC doesn't appear on BB-X128C-SB, the
next higher rev level of this tape...

Tim.


Article 9 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 10:43:01 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <3951C68F.6F589C4@trailing-edge.com>,
   Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>Phil Gagner wrote:
>> > > ...and generally would not compile correctly
>> > >or load correctly using a native PDP-11 assembler and loader
>> > >without significant work. The TOPS-10 programs MACY11 and
>> > >MACDLX come to mind, but it's been 24 years...
>> >
>> > And, IIRC, I shipped those executables on the Customer
>> > Supported Tape.  Wasn't there another cross-assembler?  It
>> > seems to me that MACY11 was a big company secret for quite
>> > a while.
>> >
>> 
>> Well, it was SUPPOSED to be a big secret. Actually, MACDLX
>> was the cross-assembler since something like 1972, (it didn't support
>> some kinds of relocation that MACY11 did). MACY11 wasn't much
>> of a secret, though. The MACDLX documentation actually mentioned
>> MACY11 long before it was supposed to be talked about to customers,
>> and since some customers actually read the documentation, they wanted
>> the better cross-assembler. Only DEC management thought it was a secret.
>
>Indeed, the earliest version of the MACDLX documentation that
>I have says:
>
> MACDLX.DOC -- Documentation for MACDLX V622
> December 1972
>
>
>
> 1.0  FUNCTION OF MACDLX
>
> MACDLX is a powerful MACRO assembler which runs  on  DECsystem-10  and
> generates  code  for  the  PDP-11.   MACDLX should be used to generate
> binary files for the DC75 and DC44.  MACDLX is  a  subset  of  MACY11.
> MACY11  is  a  software  product  of Digital Equipment Corp.  The only
> features in MACY11 not found in  MACDLX  are  those  which  deal  with
> relocatable code.
>
>Those who are interested can find MACDLX.DOC and MACDLX.MAN at
>
>  http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/
>
>on the tape BB-X128B-SB, the CUSP BIN AND SRC tape.  For some
>strange reason, MACDLX.DOC doesn't appear on BB-X128C-SB, the
>next higher rev level of this tape...

Aw, geez, Tim.  Give me the years.  Even after revamping how
we did the BOMs, I couldn't remember those awful names.

There was some point where I got an edict from some idiot 
product manager that I couldn't delete the useless DOC
files from the CUSP tape.  There was also another time
where DOC files were actually MAN files in sheep's
clothing.  

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 37 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Ahp25.189367$MB.3513790@news6.giganews.com> <394fe31f.0@news.kivex.com>    <8iq8eh$t3l$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39514a2d.0@news.kivex.com> <BeC45.1059$Zr5.136853@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
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Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:BeC45.1059$Zr5.136853@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> "Phil Gagner" <gagner@svg-law.com> writes:
> >True, true. The code was tight, because it had to run without
> >much memory and in real time. It was the kind of hand-crafted
> >assembler code that C-fanatics always claim could be better
> >done in a higher-level language, but which never seems to
> >actually work when done that way.
> That used to be the case, I finally jumped on the "C compilers can
> beat my assembler code" bandwagon two years ago.

<snip>>... The C code was faster!

Agree. It really depends on the compiler and the machine. As you
correctly point out:
<snip>
> Scheduling RISC instructions is not easy, and since RISC compilers
> pass arguments in registers, there's little opportunity for a good
> assemler programmer to beat the compiler without spending an inordinate
> amount of time.

When the programs become sufficiently long, then a clever compiler
beats hand-coded assembly because it can keep track of more
states and worry about things like instruction pre-fetch and what's
in the cache over hundreds of instructions.

<snip>
> >None of us were real PDP-11 programmers, so the code looks
> >a lot like PDP-10 code with operand order switched around.
> >It probably gave PDP-11 jocks the shivers just to read it.
>
> I disagree.  At CMU I used PDP-11s since my sophomore year, and I spent
> two years there after graduation.  While they paid me for TOPS-10 work,
> I used various PDP-11s in various courses and personal work.  A graphics
> hack that I brought to DEC called Roses (you may have seen it on the
> GT40s) computed curves that needed two cosines and one sine for each point
> on the display.  I heard that one computer artist found my code
> on a PDP-11/45 was far faster than his code on a good sized IBM 360.
<snip>
I had somewhat the opposite experience with the -11 code.
Your code was an exception, and perhaps not the general rule.
Certainly my -11 code wasn't up to the quality of yours.
Later I did more -11 programming and actually got a feel for it.

 > >There was a hacked-up version of DDT (DDT11) and
> >you could read and write the remote station's memory
> >(and modify the -11 code on the fly if you dared).
>
> I think that code originally came from CMU via the RT group.  The CMU
> code was written after I left.

Was it? It's possible. I don't remember that attribution. Certainly
the /FE:n switch and the /LINE:n switches were added at DEC.

The source found on
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/CUSPBINSRC_1OF2_BB-X128C-SB.html
has the following attribution:
  This program has been brought to you through the hard work of the
  following people:

  Tony Crugnola, Dan Deufel, Kathy Haramundanis, [RDH], Tim Litt,
  DRLyons, Mary Marotta, Todd (WEM) Matson, Dave McClure, Pete
  Mierswa, Reed Powell, Bob South, Ric Werme, Jack Yelig






Article 11 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 10:38:26 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 47
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In article <bpq3lscfoia5ifnhd57ca3m6jpm98kud8j@4ax.com>,
   "Me (again)" <David@Clam.Central.Org> wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:51:12 -0400, "Alan H. Martin" 
<AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>
>>Phil Gagner wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. ANF-10 was Advanced Network Functions for the TOPS-10
>>> operating system.  ...
>>
>>BTW, I remember being told that some piece of PDP-10 networking software
>>was substantially written by one or more people who stayed at work for
>>the Blizzard of '78 and lived off of vending machines.  Was it ANF-10,
>>or what?
>>				/AHM/THX
>
>Mostly Urban Legend. 

Heh, heh.  There were a lot of stories caused by that blizzard.

> IIRC, Quite a few people, 8 or 10, did get stuck in the building.
>People would give you a dollar for 75 cents in change.
>
>After a day or so, I walked in with a back pack of food. 
>(I only lived 2 miles from the
>office, near the center of Marlboro.)

However, security opened up the cafeteria.  I sure wish
I could figure out who "Me" is.



>Some part of the code was redone, but ANF had significantly 
>more code that could ever be written in a day or two.  

Understatement?

>(And it was around for a few years BEFORE the Blizzard of '78 in
>any case).
>
Which nobody, and I mean nobody outside of the TOPS-10 people
seem to be able to remember.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: "Me (again)" <David@Clam.Central.Org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 = no network?!
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:39:13 -0400
Organization: ARSCC
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>Which nobody, and I mean nobody outside of the TOPS-10 people
>seem to be able to remember.

Hell, Barb, I can still tell you how the device macros in the ANF code built the control
blocks for the DH and DZ11s, or what the buffering structure for DDCMP was (and the tricks
we used to make it so fast compared to DECnet.)

Those device macros were recursive, calling itself up to 16 times, depending on how many
devices you were supporting.  Real ugly, but the concept was pure Dave McClure.  He did it
for just the DH, originally.  I had to make it work for the DH or the DZ or both.  (We
actually had two customers who ran DN87's with mixed DH's and DZ's.)

Here is a BIG hint.....

Until last month, I worked with John Purretta.  Bet that's a name from your past.
Another hint:  I worked in Taylor Street, about 100 feet from Jim.

I really liked the VR4.

Me.


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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: 21 Jun 2000 23:26:50 -1000
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>>>>> "Alan" == Alan H Martin <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:

    Alan> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    Alan> " TITLE PIP V.033D(546) SUBTTL
    Alan> VJC/PMH/AK-DAG/DMN/JHT/DLC/MD/LCR/MHK/CGN/RL/MRB/KMR 15-AUG-85

    Alan> ;PERIPHERAL INTERCHANGE PROGRAM

See, Barb, there's no "Nothead" in there any more.  I think I got PIP after
Monique.  IIRC I did edits about 273-320 or some such.

Do we have a list of initials to names saved anywhere?  From the various
ones above, I'll start one with:


DLC - David Campbell (sp?)
RCC - Robert Clements
PFC - Peter Conklin
MD  - Monique Duhamel
JMF - Jim Fleming (arrrgh - Flemming?)
AF  - Alan Frantz (sp?)
JNG - Mike Gilbert
TH  - Tom Hastings
DAL - Don Lewine
SML - Sandy Libman
SMM - Steve Meidel
DMN - David Nixon
S?P - Steve Pavola
JNT - Jim Thomas (Nothead)
TW  - Tony Wachs


Article 13 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-231-103
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 11:20:36 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 175
Message-ID: <8it6ub$el3$11@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8i52ue$39a$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <wwln09mbze.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <8i7otl$k3n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9tN15.1211$vP1.42677@ord-read.news.verio.net> <8iij1j$rmt$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <394D7EF1.703112AD@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8il3lf$37j$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <8il5tm$1sj$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8inra6$d9n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>....
>> >SCAN (and WILD) were split out from DIRECT by Jun-71.
>> 
>> If this is true (but I have doubts you're interpreting dates
>> in the sources correctly), ...
>
>Ah, it looks like SCAN and WILD existed in Jun-71, but DIRECT still
>used its internal copies for a little while longer:
>
>DIRECT.MAC:
>"
>;%1 -- 6/71 WITH 5.03 MONITOR
>
>;A)  REARRANGE TO USE SCAN.MAC AND ELIMINATE THE
>;	BUILT IN SCANNER.  THIS GIVES INDIRECT FILES AND ALL
>;	THE SCAN IMPROVEMENTS OVER SCANER.
>....
>;E)  REARRANGE TO USE REVAMPED LOKWLD (WILD)
>"
>
>SCAN.MAC:
>"
>;%1 (SCANER) -- 6/71 WITH 5.03 MONITOR
>
>;A)  MOVE MACROS TO C.MAC AND SCNMAC.MAC.  USE ALL BIT AND
>;	BYTE DEFINITIONS FROM C.MAC.  DEFINE FILE SPEC AREA
>;	IN SCNMAC.MAC.
>"
>
>
>WILD.MAC:
>"
>;%1 -- 6/71 WITH 5.03 MONITOR (NAMED LOKWLD)
>....
>;B)  UPDATE TO USE THE REVISED TYPEOUT ROUTINES IN SCAN.
>"
>
>
>> >> On second thought...perhaps the "user" in DAEMON's case
>> >> was the monitor.  When somebody typed one of those
>> >> commands at a terminal, the monitor simply passed
>> >> the command to DAEMON in behalf of the real user.
>> >
>> >It's a cinch that DCORE didn't run a program in the user's address 
space
>> >to dump core - it had to work without disturbing the user application.
>> >
>> >
>> >The lowest numbered DAEMON UUO function code is ``.DCORE''.  A rough
>> >bracket is that the 1970 printing of the PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook 
has
>> >no DCORE or DUMP command - only a $DUMP card which causes BATCON to:
>> >
>> >..E 140
>> >
>> >and if the output is SIXBIT |DRIVER| (meaning that the "DRIVER" 
package,
>> >was linked into the application, then BATCON does a:
>> 
>> Errmmm...perhaps not.  This is 4S72 or earlier days.
>
>Well, whatever piece of the batch system was controlling the batch job's
>PTY...

If there was a batch system.  I think we (a customer in 1969)
got ours from Dartmouth.

>
>
>> >..START 141
>> >
>> >and DRIVER would print the contents of core.
>> 
>> The contents of whose core?
>
>The application that DRIVER was linked into.

Then it couldn't be a user.

>
>
>> >DAEMON.MAC's oldest copyright is 1971, so that fits the above dates.
>> 
>> You have to ignore these copyright dates as an indicator
>> of when stuff happened.  ...
>
>If DAEMON was shipping at the time the 1970 timesharing handbook was
>written, did it provide any user-visible functionality I can look for?

Nope.  DAEMON never provided user-visible functionality. 

>
>
>>...  We got the edict that
>> copyrights had to be included that year (1971).  We did not
>> backdate copyrights; we just started with the year the edict
>> came down on our heads.  Tape Prep included copyright statements
>> as a part of their job.  Every thing we touched, we put
>> copyright statements in.
>
>"
>UNIVERSAL S - SYSTEM PARAMETER FILE FOR 7.04 MONITOR - V1436
>SUBTTL	/TH/AF/CHW/RCC/DAL/I/BGE/RLD/JBS	26-JULY-88
>....
>;COPYRIGHT (c) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 1969,1970,1971,1972,1973,
>; 1974,1975,1976,1977,1978,1979,1980,1982,1984,1986,1988.
>"

I don't know about PIP, but the monitor's copyrights were back
dated when the EXE copyright mess landed on our heads.  
Believe me, you cannot use the copyright dates as
an indicator of _when_ things happened to the code.  I did this shit.
You know?  TE FOO.MAC
		NCOPY$0TT$$ <now insert appropriate year>

I typed those commands.  I even, in my Tape Prep days, had
the ASCII template file that went into everything that we
created, modified, or processed.  Jeez.  Listen to your
elders :-).

>
>"
>TITLE PIP V.033D(546)
>SUBTTL	VJC/PMH/AK-DAG/DMN/JHT/DLC/MD/LCR/MHK/CGN/RL/MRB/KMR	15-AUG-85
>
>;PERIPHERAL INTERCHANGE PROGRAM
>
>
>
>;COPYRIGHT (c) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 
1968,1969,1970,1971,1972,1973,1974,1975,1976,1977,1980,1984,1985,1986.
>"
>
>
>> >> Although I have no idea why OSAVE should be one of them.
>> >
>> >It seems as if they couldn't afford to keep .SAV file generation in the
>> >resident monitor, particularly for programs that had gone virtual.
>> 
>> Virtual?  What does virtual have to do with that?  ...
>
>Ya got me.  Pages scattered all over the drum are a pain to gather for
>zero compression and saving?

Didn't the EXE spec start happening before Jim wrote VMSER?  I
seem to remember wrestling with all those extensions when
the monitor group was still on 5-5 and I was in the Computer
Operations group.


>
>
>>...  My speculation
>> was why we even bothered to transfer OSAVE support to DAEMON.  We
>> wanted to get rid of SAV, SHR, HIG, and LOW file extensions.
>
>Well for one thing, SAVE wouldn't write a .EXE directly to DECtape.

Huh?

By the way, did anybody, who is reading this thread, ever use
the DUMP command?  I never did.  I don't know anybody who
did other than MPB BATCON burping.  CDO?  You can tell me this.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 18 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:52:27 -0400
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <39534F7B.FA73DBB1@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <8i52ue$39a$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <wwln09mbze.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <8i7otl$k3n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9tN15.1211$vP1.42677@ord-read.news.verio.net> <8iij1j$rmt$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <394D7EF1.703112AD@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8il3lf$37j$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <8il5tm$1sj$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8inra6$d9n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8it6ub$el3$11@bob.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >> In article <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
> >>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
...
> >> >... the 1970 printing of the PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook has
> >> >... a $DUMP card which causes BATCON to:
...
> >> Errmmm...perhaps not.  This is 4S72 or earlier days.
> >
> >Well, whatever piece of the batch system was controlling the batch job's
> >PTY...
> 
> If there was a batch system.  ...

Ah...  Yep, it wasn't "BATCON", it was "BATCH".  1970 batch support
consisted of BATCH, STACK and DRIVER.


> >> >..START 141
> >> >
> >> >and DRIVER would print the contents of core.
> >>
> >> The contents of whose core?
> >
> >The application that DRIVER was linked into.
> 
> Then it couldn't be a user.
                        ^^^^
Then what couldn't be a user?

Users linked DRIVER into applications that might need a postmortem
core dump, particularly when run in a batch job.


> >>...  My speculation
> >> was why we even bothered to transfer OSAVE support to DAEMON.  We
> >> wanted to get rid of SAV, SHR, HIG, and LOW file extensions.
> >
> >Well for one thing, SAVE wouldn't write a .EXE directly to DECtape.
> 
> Huh?

COMCON.MAC
"
	SUBTTL	SAVGET -- SAVE A JOB

;THIS JOB SAVES A JOB AREA ON RETRIEVABLE STORAGE
...
	MOVE	T1,DEVMOD(F)	;DEVICE BITS
...
	MOVSI	T2,(JS.EXE)	;BIT WHICH SAYS SAVE IN EXE FORMAT
	TLNE	T1,DVDTA	;A DECTAPE ?
	ANDCAM	T2,JBTST2##(J)	;YES, SAVE IN THE OLD OFRMAT
"
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 27 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-103
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 10:31:50 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <8j2cre$svg$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8i52ue$39a$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <wwln09mbze.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <8i7otl$k3n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9tN15.1211$vP1.42677@ord-read.news.verio.net> <8iij1j$rmt$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <394D7EF1.703112AD@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8il3lf$37j$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <8il5tm$1sj$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8inra6$d9n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8it6ub$el3$11@bob.news.rcn.net> <39534F7B.FA73DBB1@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <39534F7B.FA73DBB1@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >> In article <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>> >>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>....
>> >> >... the 1970 printing of the PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook has
>> >> >... a $DUMP card which causes BATCON to:
>....
>> >> Errmmm...perhaps not.  This is 4S72 or earlier days.
>> >
>> >Well, whatever piece of the batch system was controlling the batch 
job's
>> >PTY...
>> 
>> If there was a batch system.  ...
>
>Ah...  Yep, it wasn't "BATCON", it was "BATCH".  1970 batch support
>consisted of BATCH, STACK and DRIVER.
>
>
>> >> >..START 141
>> >> >
>> >> >and DRIVER would print the contents of core.
>> >>
>> >> The contents of whose core?
>> >
>> >The application that DRIVER was linked into.
>> 
>> Then it couldn't be a user.
>                        ^^^^
>Then what couldn't be a user?

The normal every day average user that logged in, did some
stuff and logged out.

>
>Users linked DRIVER into applications ...

I don't think they did in those days.  An installation might,
but not a user.
 

> ...that might need a postmortem
>core dump, particularly when run in a batch job.

I don't remember how BATCH worked.  I don't believe
that there were PTYs in those days.  It's clear that
the DUMP command was there for the IBMers who couldn't
make the conversion to timesharing.
>
>
>> >>...  My speculation
>> >> was why we even bothered to transfer OSAVE support to DAEMON.  We
>> >> wanted to get rid of SAV, SHR, HIG, and LOW file extensions.
>> >
>> >Well for one thing, SAVE wouldn't write a .EXE directly to DECtape.
>> 
>> Huh?
>
>COMCON.MAC

I'm trying to remember when I did this stuff and what the
outcome was but I can't seem to get it out of my crufty
memory.

>"
>	SUBTTL	SAVGET -- SAVE A JOB
>
>;THIS JOB SAVES A JOB AREA ON RETRIEVABLE STORAGE
>....
>	MOVE	T1,DEVMOD(F)	;DEVICE BITS
>....
>	MOVSI	T2,(JS.EXE)	;BIT WHICH SAYS SAVE IN EXE FORMAT
>	TLNE	T1,DVDTA	;A DECTAPE ?
>	ANDCAM	T2,JBTST2##(J)	;YES, SAVE IN THE OLD OFRMAT
>"

I didn't do monitor programming.  Never believe the comments.
I'm not really sure what that code is doing.  From the way
I read it, the EXE bit is getting set in JOBSTS.  That doesn't
imply that the core image is getting saved in the old save format.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 28 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:35:11 -0400
Lines: 167
Message-ID: <39551B7E.C40F7788@MA.UltraNet.Com>
References: <8i52ue$39a$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <wwln09mbze.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <8i7otl$k3n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9tN15.1211$vP1.42677@ord-read.news.verio.net> <8iij1j$rmt$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <394D7EF1.703112AD@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8il3lf$37j$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <8il5tm$1sj$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8inra6$d9n$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8it6ub$el3$11@bob.news.rcn.net> <39534F7B.FA73DBB1@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8j2cre$svg$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <39534F7B.FA73DBB1@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <395176C4.619D8372@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
> >>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >> >> In article <394EEF4B.3967240@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
> >> >>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >> >> >..START 141
> >> >> >
> >> >> >and DRIVER would print the contents of core.
> >> >>
> >> >> The contents of whose core?
> >> >
> >> >The application that DRIVER was linked into.
> >>
> >> Then it couldn't be a user.
> >                        ^^^^
> >Then what couldn't be a user?
> 
> The normal every day average user that logged in, did some
> stuff and logged out.
>
> >Users linked DRIVER into applications ...
> 
> I don't think they did in those days.  An installation might,
> but not a user.

"
4.3 IMPLEMENTATION OF DRIVER

The $EXLDR card automatically loads Driver into core before any user
program(1).  ...
...
(1) If the $EXLDR card is omitted, Driver can be loaded with a $LDR card
or a $RUN SYS LOADER card.
"


> > ...that might need a postmortem
> >core dump, particularly when run in a batch job.
> 
> I don't remember how BATCH worked.  I don't believe
> that there were PTYs in those days.  ...

"
2.1 DESCRIPTION
...
When Batch is being run from a user's console Teletype (TTY) as a
time-shared job, with a job number n, it sequentially initializes and
executes a series of time-shared jobs (with job numbers m1, m2, etc.)
in parallel with itself.  Batch accomplishes this by utilizing a
"simulated Teletype" (called a pseudo-Teletype (PTY)).  A PTY is a
mechanism by which one job (a control job) can control another job (an
object job).  Batch uses a PTY to type its commands to the object job.
...
"


> >> >>...  My speculation
> >> >> was why we even bothered to transfer OSAVE support to DAEMON.  We
> >> >> wanted to get rid of SAV, SHR, HIG, and LOW file extensions.
> >> >
> >> >Well for one thing, SAVE wouldn't write a .EXE directly to DECtape.
> >>
> >> Huh?
> >
> >COMCON.MAC
> 
> I'm trying to remember when I did this stuff and what the
> outcome was but I can't seem to get it out of my crufty
> memory.
> 
> >"
> >       SUBTTL  SAVGET -- SAVE A JOB
> >
> >;THIS JOB SAVES A JOB AREA ON RETRIEVABLE STORAGE
> >....
> >       MOVE    T1,DEVMOD(F)    ;DEVICE BITS
> >....
> >       MOVSI   T2,(JS.EXE)     ;BIT WHICH SAYS SAVE IN EXE FORMAT
> >       TLNE    T1,DVDTA        ;A DECTAPE ?
> >       ANDCAM  T2,JBTST2##(J)  ;YES, SAVE IN THE OLD OFRMAT
> >"
> 
> I didn't do monitor programming.  Never believe the comments.
> I'm not really sure what that code is doing.  From the way
> I read it, the EXE bit is getting set in JOBSTS.  That doesn't
> imply that the core image is getting saved in the old save format.

S.MAC:
"
;BITS IN THE LEFT HALF OF JBTST2

	XP	JS.EXE,1B17	;A NEW SAVE (EXE FILE) IS UNDERWAY
				; OR, ON A "GET", THIS BIT MEANS THAT A LOOKUP
				; ON THE EXE FILE FAILED. IF SO, THE
				; EXE FILE WILL NOT BE LOOKUP'ED AGAIN
				; FOR THE LOW SEGMENT
"

COMCON.MAC:
"
	SUBTTL	SAVGET -- COMMAND SCAN

;ROUTINE TO SCAN COMMAND STRING ARGUMENTS FOR SAVE,GET,MERGE,RUN AND R
;COMMANDS AND STORE THEM IN JOB DATA AREA WHICH MUST BE IN CORE
;WHEN SGSET IS CALLED FROM COMMAND DECODER
...
	CAIN	T3,"."		;IS AN EXTENSION SPECIFIED
	PUSHJ	P,CTEXT		;YES. GET EXTENSION
	HLRZS	T2		;SEE IF THE USER
	CAIE	T2,(SIXBIT /SHR/) ;HAS SPECIFIED AN
	CAIN	T2,(SIXBIT /HGH/) ;IMPROPER LOW EXTENSION
SGSET4:	MOVEI	T2,0		;YES--IGNORE IT
	HRLZM	T2,.JDAT+SGAEXT	;STORE IT FOR LOOKUP
	MOVSI	T1,(JS.EXE)
	CAIN	T2,(SIXBIT /SAV/)
	ANDCAM	T1,JBTST2##(J)
	PUSHJ	P,SETEXT##	;SET HIGH EXTENSION(SGAHGH) TO .SHR IF SSAVE OR GET
				; ,HGH IF SAVE(LH S=NSRBIT).
...
;ROUTINE TO CHECK IF THIS USER IS TRYING TO SAVE A NEW-STYLE (.EXE)
; SAVE FILE
;
;CALL:
;	MOVE	J,JOB-NUMBER
;	PUSHJ	P,CHKEXE
;	  HERE IF YES
;	HERE IF NO
;
;ALL AC'S PRESERVED
;
CHKEXE::PUSH	P,T1		;SAVDDL NEEDS T1 SAVED
	MOVE	T1,JBTST2##(J)	;GET JOB STATUS WORD
	TLNE	T1,(JS.EXE)	;IS THE "EXE" BIT SET? (WHICH
				; MEANS THAT WE ARE DOING A
				; SAVE OF AN EXE FILE)
	JRST	TPOPJ##		;YES, RESTORE T1 AND EXIT
	JRST	TPOPJ1##	;NO, EXIT AT CALL+2
"

SEGCON.MAC:
"
;ROUTINE TO SET EXTENSION OF HIGH SEGMENT TO SHR(SSAVE,GET,R) OR HGH(SAVE)
;CALL:	HRLI S,0(GET,SSAVE,RUN) OR NSRBIT(SAVE)
;	MOVE R,XWD PROTECT,RELOC FOR LOW SEG
;	MOVEI T2, LOW FILE EXTENSION OR 0 IF NONE TYPED IN
;	PUSHJ P,SETEXT
;	RETURN T1 PRESERVED(TTY INPUT BYTE POINTER)
;	CALLED FROM COMMAND DECODER ROUTINE SGSET, T1 PRESERVED (INPUT BYTE POINTER)


SETEXT::HRLZM	T2,.JDAT+SGALOW##	;SAVE EXTENSION USER TYPED FOR LOW SEG
	MOVE	T2,[SIXBIT /SHRHGH/]	;ASSUME SSAVE COMMAND(OR  GET)
	TLNE	S,NSRBIT	;WAS IT?
	MOVSS	T2		;NO, EXCHANGE ROLES OF EXTENSIONS, MUST
				; BY SAVE
	MOVEM	T2,.JDAT+SGAHGH##	;SAVE FOR ENTER AND RENAME OF HIGH SEGMENT
	POPJ	P,
"
				/AHM/QED
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 52 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 cross assembler?
Date: 28 Jun 2000 08:45:33 GMT
Organization: Chez Inwap
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:52

In article <8it6ub$el3$11@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>>...  My speculation
>>> was why we even bothered to transfer OSAVE support to DAEMON.  We
>>> wanted to get rid of SAV, SHR, HIG, and LOW file extensions.
>>
>>Well for one thing, SAVE wouldn't write a .EXE directly to DECtape.
>
>Huh?

DECtapes have 127 words per block.  That fact screws up all sorts of
binary data transfers.
	-Joe

--
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.


Article 24 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:21:58 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope
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If someone with ready access to the sources would send me some more SUBTTL
lines, I'll add to this, but so far:

DLC - David Campbell (sp?)
RCC - Bob Clements
PFC - Peter Conklin
JLd - Jim de la Houssaye
MD  - Monique Duhamel
JMF - Jim Flemming
AF  - Alan Frantz
JNG - Mike Gilbert
TH  - Tom Hastings
RDH - Bob Houk
BAH - Barb Huizenga (sp? - arrrgh again, but it has been 25 years :-(
PMH - Peter Hurley
DAL - Don Lewine
SML - Sandy Libman
AHM - Alan Martin
WEM - Todd Matson
SMM - Steve Meidel
DMN - David Nixon
CDO - Chuck O'Toole
S?P - Steve Pavola
JHT - Jeff Talmadge (sp?)
JNT - Jim Thomas (Nothead)
TW  - Tony Wachs
EJW - Ric Werme

AK-DAG - ?
MRB - ?
GSB - ?
VJC - ?
RLD - ?
BGE - ?
MHK - ?
RL  - ?
CAM - ?
RCM - ?
CGN - ?
JMP - ?
LCR - ?
KMR - ?
JBS - ?
CHW - ?


Article 26 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 08:06:41 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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References: <wwituzn7i1.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
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In article <wwituzn7i1.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>If someone with ready access to the sources would send me some more SUBTTL
>lines, I'll add to this, but so far:
<snip>


>BAH - Barb Huizenga (sp? - arrrgh again, but it has been 25 years :-(

<grin>  I am impressed.  People usually don't learn to spell 
it in the first place.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 30 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:30:05 -0400
Lines: 13
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References: <wwituzn7i1.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <u5d55.2159$Zr5.315417@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
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Ric Werme wrote:
> 
> Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> writes:
> 
> >KMR - ?
> 
> Kalman Reti?  He did PDP-8 terminal concentrator stuff when I was there.
> Not sure what else.

Karen M. Rabideau.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 32 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 07:44:15 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <u5d55.2159$Zr5.315417@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
   Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
>Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> writes:
>
>>KMR - ?
>
>Kalman Reti?  He did PDP-8 terminal concentrator stuff when I was there.
>Not sure what else.

Ah!  Kalman.  His handwriting caused Magee to buy a magnifying
glass.  He did an awful lot of monitor mods and it was when the
PDP-8 was passe`.   I really, really wish that the idiots hadn't
lost the MCO records.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 31 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Me (again)" <David@Clam.Central.Org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:31:26 -0400
Organization: ARSCC
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On 23 Jun 2000 16:21:58 -1000, Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:


>AK-DAG - ?
>MRB - ?
>GSB - ?
>VJC - ?
>RLD - ?
>BGE - ?
>MHK - Mark Keplien
>RL  - ?
>CAM - ?
>RCM - ?
>CGN - ?
>JMP - 
>LCR - ?
>KMR - Karen Rabideau
>JBS - John Sauter
>DRL - Dave Lyons
>CHW - ?



Article 38 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: 26 Jun 2000 13:27:13 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope
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References: <wwituzn7i1.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <39558825.9597CD60@dvorak.amd.remove.com> <Pine.NXT.4.30.0006251320530.14575-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
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>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

    Mark> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000, Clive Dawson wrote:
    Clive> If this one came from TECO sources, it's probably Robert C. McQueen
    Clive> from Stevens Tech.

    Mark> Then GSB would be Gary Brown and JMP would be John Potachnak.

Yup, I confess to having gotten those from TECO - I wasn't sure where the
DEC list ended and Stevens started.

Nothead


Article 39 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: 26 Jun 2000 16:03:00 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope
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With the help of some lists from Phil Budne (mahalo) and previous posts,
here's the current version.

Nothead

=================================== 8< -----------------------------------

List of initials seen on TOPS-10 monitor and CUSP sources

CJA	Carl Appelloff (?)
RCB	Raun (Spider) Boardman
VJB	Vern Brownell
DLC	Larry Campbell (sp?)
RCC	Robert Clements
PFC	Peter Conklin
WXD	William Davenport
JLd	Jim delaHoussaye
DBD	Doug Detroy
MD	Monique Duhamel
JAD	Joseph Dziedzic
TWE	Tom Eggers
DCE	Dave Elkund
JE	John Everett
JMF	Jim Flemming
EGF	Ed Fortmiller
AF	Alan Frantz
MF	M. Fredriksen
JNG	Mike Gilbert
PAH	Pat A. Hardy
TH	Tom Hastings
TAH	Ted Hess
RDH	Bob Houk
BAH	Barb Huizenga
PMH	Peter Hurley (also PH - or was that someone else?)
MHK	Mark Keplien
TK	Teunis Korteweg
AK-DAG	Alan Kotok & Dave Gross
TL	Tony Lauck
DAL	Don Lewine
SML	Sandy Libman
DRL	Dave Lyons
AHM	Alan Martin
WEM	Todd Matson
DMcC	Dave McClure
TNM	T. N. McManus
DPM	Don Mastrovito
SMM	Steve Meidel
SRM	Sara Murphy
DZN	Dave Neff
TARL	Tarl Neustaedter
WGN	Wick Nichols
DMN	David Nixon
CDO	Chuck O'Toole
S?P	Steve Pavola
RAP	Alan Pommer
KMR	Karen M. Rabideau
AJR	Anthony Rizzolo
JBS	John Sauter
EVS	E. Socci
JHT	Jeff Talmadge (sp?)
NT	Nick Tamburri (?)
JNT	Jim Thomas (Nothead)
DRT	D. Todd
GMU	Gary Uhler
TW	Tony Wachs
LW	Larry Wade
EJW	Ric Werme
HPW	H. P. Weiss
CHW	Chris White (?)
AW	A. Wilson (?)
KBY	Kimo Yap
PY	Paul Young

Need Names:

DJB	?
GSB	?
MFB	?
MRB	?
JBC	?
MCHC	?
VJC	?
CBD	?
HD	?
NED	?
RLD	?
BGE	?
CF	?
CMF	?
JEF	?
MCF	?
RJF	?
JBG	?
JEG	?
RDG	?
RG	?
RPG	?
SSG	?
GBH	?
GH	?
RKH	?
TNH	?
WLH	?
KK	?
DML	?
DRL	?
RL	?
WCL	?
CAM	?
CM	?
EGM	?
MJM	?
RCM	?
WJM	?
WM	?
CGN	?
LLN	? (Laura Neff?)
KDO	?
EP	?
HMP	?
JMP	?
NGP	?
OP	?
CMQ	?
AVR	?
EAR	? (Ernie Racine?)
GDR	?
KR	?
LCR	?
RCR	?
TXR	?
BGS	?
DAS	?
ERS	?
JCS	?
LSS	?
LWS	?
WRS	?
DRT	?
JMT	?
MAT	?
PMV	?
PMW	?
WFW	?
EY	?

Need initials used (guesses to right):

Al Blackington
Don Black		DJB?
Sumner Blount		GSB?
Len Bosack
Bob Bowering
M. Church  (LNS/MIT)
Rick Corbin
Richard (Dick) Gruen	RG/RPG?
Rich Krasin
Frank Natoli
W. O'Neill
Serge Polevitzky
Nick Pappas		NGP?
Dave Plummer
Kalman Reti		KR?
Larry Samberg		LSS/LWS?
R.G. Underwood
P. Watt			PMW?
W. Weiher		WFW?
Don Witcraft


Not DEC, Stevens from TECO

GSB	Gary Brown
RCM	Robert C. McQueen
JMP	John Potachnak


Article 44 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
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In article <wwituvnanf.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
Jim Thomas  <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
>Need initials used (guesses to right):
>
>Don Black		DJB?

My memory says DLB, but not with a lot of confidence.

>M. Church  (LNS/MIT)

TMC (T. Michael Church)

>Richard (Dick) Gruen	RG/RPG?
 
RPG (some people think that's for Rapid Program Generation)

-- 
--------
Sarr Blumson                    sarr@umich.edu
voice: +1 734 764 0253          home: +1 734 665 9591
ITD, University of Michigan     http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/
519 W William, Ann Arbor, MI 48103-4943


Article 45 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
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In article <wwituvnanf.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>, 
thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu says...
>
>With the help of some lists from Phil Budne (mahalo) and previous posts,
>here's the current version.

Quite an impressive list. When you go back as far as Dave Plummer, Bob 
Bowering, and Don Witcraft someone has been digging pretty deep. Here are some 
additions/clarifications (interleaved with attributions):

>Nothead
>
>=================================== 8< -----------------------------------
>
>List of initials seen on TOPS-10 monitor and CUSP sources
>
>CJA     Carl Appelloff (?)
>RCB     Raun (Spider) Boardman
>VJB     Vern Brownell
>DLC     Larry Campbell (sp?)
>RCC     Robert Clements

Never heard anyone call him "Robert", always just "Bob"

>PFC     Peter Conklin
>WXD     William Davenport
>JLd     Jim delaHoussaye
>DBD     Doug Detroy
>MD      Monique Duhamel
>JAD     Joseph Dziedzic

Joseph Anthony "Tony" Dziedzic

>TWE     Tom Eggers
>DCE     Dave Elkund
>JE      John Everett
>JMF     Jim Flemming
>EGF     Ed Fortmiller
>AF      Alan Frantz
>MF      M. Fredriksen

Mauritz "Maury" Fredriksen

>JNG     Mike Gilbert
>PAH     Pat A. Hardy
>TH      Tom Hastings
>TAH     Ted Hess
>RDH     Bob Houk
>BAH     Barb Huizenga
>PMH     Peter Hurley (also PH - or was that someone else?)
>MHK     Mark Keplien
>TK      Teunis Korteweg
>AK-DAG  Alan Kotok & Dave Gross
>TL      Tony Lauck
>DAL     Don Lewine
>SML     Sandy Libman
>DRL     Dave Lyons
>AHM     Alan Martin
>WEM     Todd Matson
>DMcC    Dave McClure
>TNM     T. N. McManus
>DPM     Don Mastrovito
>SMM     Steve Meidel
>SRM     Sara Murphy

Wife of Dan Murphy, "Father of TOPS-10"

>DZN     Dave Neff
>TARL    Tarl Neustaedter
>WGN     Wick Nichols
>DMN     David Nixon
>CDO     Chuck O'Toole
>S?P     Steve Pavola
>RAP     Alan Pommer
>KMR     Karen M. Rabideau
>AJR     Anthony Rizzolo
>JBS     John Sauter
>EVS     E. Socci

Ernie Socci

>JHT     Jeff Talmadge (sp?)
>NT      Nick Tamburri (?)
>JNT     Jim Thomas (Nothead)
>DRT     D. Todd

Don Todd

>GMU     Gary Uhler
>TW      Tony Wachs
>LW      Larry Wade
>EJW     Ric Werme
>HPW     H. P. Weiss
>CHW     Chris White (?)

Probably

>AW      A. Wilson (?)

Alan "Pete" Wilson???

>KBY     Kimo Yap

Or was this Ken Young??

>PY      Paul Young
>
>Need Names:
>
>DJB     ?
>GSB     ?
>MFB     ?
>MRB     ?
>JBC     ?
>MCHC    ?
>VJC     ?
>CBD     ?
>HD      ?
>NED     ?
>RLD     ?
>BGE     ?

Bernie Eiben??

>CF      ?

Craig Fletcher???

>CMF     ?

Craig Fletcher???

>JEF     ?
>MCF     ?
>RJF     ?
>JBG     ?
>JEG     ?
>RDG     ?
>RG      ?
>RPG     ?
>SSG     ?
>GBH     ?
>GH      ?
>RKH     ?
>TNH     ?
>WLH     ?
>KK      ?

First name "Karen", now who can come up with the last name???

>DML     ?
>DRL     ?
>RL      ?
>WCL     ?
>CAM     ?
>CM      ?
>EGM     ?
>MJM     ?
>RCM     ?
>WJM     ?
>WM      ?
>CGN     ?
>LLN     ? (Laura Neff?)
>KDO     ?
>EP      ?

Eric Peabody??

>HMP     ?
>JMP     ?
>NGP     ?
>OP      ?
>CMQ     ?
>AVR     ?
>EAR     ? (Ernie Racine?)

Probably

>GDR     ?
>KR      ?
>LCR     ?
>RCR     ?
>TXR     ?
>BGS     ?
>DAS     ?
>ERS     ?
>JCS     ?
>LSS     ?
>LWS     ?
>WRS     ?
>DRT     ?

Donalene Trafton???

>JMT     ?
>MAT     ?
>PMV     ?
>PMW     ?
>WFW     ?
>EY      ?
>
>Need initials used (guesses to right):
>
>Al Blackington
>Don Black               DJB?
>Sumner Blount           GSB?
>Len Bosack
>Bob Bowering
>M. Church  (LNS/MIT)

TMC (T. Michael Church)

>Rick Corbin
>Richard (Dick) Gruen    RG/RPG?

I'm pretty sure Dick used RPG (Rapid Program Generation) :-)

>Rich Krasin

RLK??? (BAH should know this one!)

>Frank Natoli
>W. O'Neill
>Serge Polevitzky

SAP???

>Nick Pappas             NGP?
>Dave Plummer
>Kalman Reti             KR?
>Larry Samberg           LSS/LWS?

I'm pretty sure Larry was LSS.

>R.G. Underwood
>P. Watt                 PMW?
>W. Weiher               WFW?
>Don Witcraft

DAW

>
>
>Not DEC, Stevens from TECO
>
>GSB     Gary Brown
>RCM     Robert C. McQueen
>JMP     John Potachnak

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 46 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: 27 Jun 2000 13:22:30 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope
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>>>>> "John" == John Everett <jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com> writes:

    John> Quite an impressive list. When you go back as far as Dave
    John> Plummer, Bob Bowering, and Don Witcraft someone has been digging
    John> pretty deep.

Don't blame it on me :-)  A lot came from Phil Budne (thanks again!).  Plus
netknowledge :-)

Thanks to all the previous posts.  I've incorporated those.  Plus I saw an
obit this morning which brought back another name.

???	Paul (?) Wexelblat (sp?)

Nothead


Article 48 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Me (again)" <David@Clam.Central.Org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:12:21 -0400
Organization: ARSCC
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <5kgilssnqq4sru55k5g2ea6grkfjlv4811@4ax.com>
References: <wwituzn7i1.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <39558825.9597CD60@dvorak.amd.remove.com> <Pine.NXT.4.30.0006251320530.14575-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> <wwlmzsm3am.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <wwituvnanf.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> <eD665.1683$vP1.68435@ord-read.news.verio.net>
Reply-To: ...OTs will know where...Try Gold Base...
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:45:30 GMT, jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:


What about JCH (John Hallyburton)
and 

HANLEY STRAPMAN, who was the person who actually wrote all of TOPS-10, at least if you ask
a member of the 4.07 users group.  :-)



Article 50 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: 27 Jun 2000 15:35:59 -1000
Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope
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>>>>> "John" == John Everett <jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com> writes:

    John> In article <wwituvnanf.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
    John> thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu says...

    >> SRM Sara Murphy

    John> Wife of Dan Murphy, "Father of TOPS-10"
                                              ^
Ummm, some might disagree :-)  Some of us called it TOPS-5 at the time :-)
It was only half of TOPS-10, not twice :-)  But of course we were a bit
prejudiced :-)  And it was young - this was at the time the name changed
from SNARK/KRANS to TOPS-20.

Nothead


Article 53 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap
From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: 28 Jun 2000 08:55:35 GMT
Organization: Chez Inwap
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:53

In article <eD665.1683$vP1.68435@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
John Everett <jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com> wrote:
>>CF      ?
>
>Craig Fletcher???
>
>>CMF     ?
>
>Craig Fletcher???

CMF = Craig M Fletcher = the former DEC employee who was my first manager
at Tymshare (aka McDonnel Douglas Field Service Company).
	-Joe
--
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.


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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:36

In article <8j7d7f$a1d$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>
>Wow!  Talk about names that I've forgotten.
>
>/BAH

I just received the following from someone who lurks but never posts here:

Hi, John,

Next update you post on this thread, you might
add that "AK - DAG" are Alan Kotok and Dave Gross.
Not sure why nobody picked those up immediately.

Best,
/Rcc



-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 40 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 07:41:40 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:40

In article <3EJ55.1637$vP1.65840@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <8j7d7f$a1d$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>
>>Wow!  Talk about names that I've forgotten.
>>
>>/BAH
>
>I just received the following from someone who lurks but 
>never posts here:

Yeah, it's a shame.  He's gotta have some really good 
stories.  'ey, Bob.
>
>Hi, John,
>
>Next update you post on this thread, you might
>add that "AK - DAG" are Alan Kotok and Dave Gross.
>Not sure why nobody picked those up immediately.
>
>Best,
>/Rcc

I didn't because I don't remember ever typing in their code.
I do remember Gross haunting 5-5, but I don't remember him 
in the 3-5 area.  

Alan was one of the people that the trainers (Magee, Sheila,
and Nadine) in Tape Prep would point to, say his name in 
awe, and declare him to be a really smart guy :-).  Dave 
Gross didn't get the same treatment.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 74 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:07:45 -0700
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:74

On 28 Jun 2000, Ronan Flood wrote:
> I see reference to Dave Lyons: he was one of my lecturers then, at the
> University of Essex.

The Dave Lyons who worked at DEC was a different person.

-- Mark --

* RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State. *
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message.          *
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 132 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:38:02 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <3966B77E.169BA2CD@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <39620BA8.7C52A145@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
> >>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
...
> >> >>...  Dave was a late comer.  ...
> >> >
> >> >37 of the edits predating the sole BAH edit 1507 of 4-Jun-81.
...
> Are we talking FOROTS.MAC here?  ...

FORHST.MAC, the revision history file started on 12-Mar-79 for
FOROTS V6 (and then left fallow until 20-Mar-80).


>...  You should also remember that
> the PDP-10 product line was ended as of 1983.

With years of development taking place after that, and a closeout
summary meeting (maybe not the last) taking place at Fall DECUS '90.
The last development edit for Fortran V11 (which finally delivered full
Fortran-77) was MEM's 4561 of 13-Jan-87.  The last maintenance edit was
DCE's 4606 of 12-Jan-89.


> I don't remember Dave Wright making any FOROTS V5 edits.  Now,
> interpret that statement to be "development of V5 FOROTS".  ...

Yep, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't touch V5.


>...  The
> first I remember of Dave is working on V6 which was a complete
> rewrite of FOROTS.  I sure don't remember doing an edit to
> V6 in 1980.

This is edit 1507 of 4-Jun-81:

"
1507	BAH	4-Jun-81
	Fix up FORRTF, TOPS10 real time library routine, to work with version 6
	memory management.
"

Changes to FUNCT., ALCOR. and/or DECOR. calls, I guess.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 133 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 08:23:38 GMT
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In article <39673CCA.A87A1805@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <3966B77E.169BA2CD@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <39620BA8.7C52A145@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>> >>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>....
>> >> >>...  Dave was a late comer.  ...
>> >> >
>> >> >37 of the edits predating the sole BAH edit 1507 of 4-Jun-81.
>....
>> Are we talking FOROTS.MAC here?  ...
>
>FORHST.MAC, the revision history file started on 12-Mar-79 for
>FOROTS V6 (and then left fallow until 20-Mar-80).

OK, here's another small note of development style in PDP-10 land.

You say "lie fallow".  Now, that might have been true for 
FOROTS.  However, it certainly was the case that, if a massive
development effort was going on in a particular piece of 
software, none of the day-to-day programming changes were
ever documented or assigned an edit number.  In the case of
edit number assignations, that was pretty much left up to
the developer to decide when that number should be bumped up.
It usually was done when a test bed of the software was
put up on NEW: on the TOPS-10 development system.  Eventually
that set would be put on SYS: to ensure that the software was
the only one used (not everybody had /NEW set in their 
search list.   Oh, yeah, another caveat:  I'm only talking
about the programming habits on the TOPS-10 side.  I have
no idea (or not much, anyway) of the programming habits on
the TOPS-20 side unless they impacted the -10 in some way.
>
>
>>...  You should also remember that
>> the PDP-10 product line was ended as of 1983.
>
>With years of development taking place after that, ...

There is development and then there is doing the necessary
work so that the whole package can be put on the shelf and
forgotten.  When the cancellation of Jupiter happened, the
developement and maintenance groups merged (they were no
longer under two different VP organizations) and our sole
object was to put ourselves out of business.  That was in 1983,
I think.  However, the writing was already on the wall before
that, so most of my planning efforts was to make sure that
at least TOPS-10 customers would be able to run their 
hardware into the ground.  

> ... and a closeout
>summary meeting (maybe not the last) taking place at Fall DECUS '90.
>The last development edit for Fortran V11 (which finally delivered full
>Fortran-77) was MEM's 4561 of 13-Jan-87.  The last maintenance edit was
>DCE's 4606 of 12-Jan-89.

We didn't die quietly.

>
>
>> I don't remember Dave Wright making any FOROTS V5 edits.  Now,
>> interpret that statement to be "development of V5 FOROTS".  ...
>
>Yep, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't touch V5.
>
>
>>...  The
>> first I remember of Dave is working on V6 which was a complete
>> rewrite of FOROTS.  I sure don't remember doing an edit to
>> V6 in 1980.
>
>This is edit 1507 of 4-Jun-81:
>
>"
>1507	BAH	4-Jun-81
>	Fix up FORRTF, TOPS10 real time library routine, to work with 
version 6
>	memory management.
>"
>
>Changes to FUNCT., ALCOR. and/or DECOR. calls, I guess.

Hmmm... I'll have to think about that one and test my memory
recall to see if I can remember it :-).  It'll be a nice
exercise for me.  I thought we had dropped real time support
with V7.01.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 136 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:11:32 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <39673CCA.A87A1805@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> >FORHST.MAC, the revision history file started on 12-Mar-79 for
> >FOROTS V6 (and then left fallow until 20-Mar-80).
...
> You say "lie fallow".  Now, that might have been true for
> FOROTS.  ...

That one-year gap probably means that even the developers thought they
were stil doing basic development.


> edit number assignations ...
> usually was done when a test bed of the software was
> put up on NEW: on the TOPS-10 development system.  Eventually
> that set would be put on SYS: to ensure that the software was
> the only one used (not everybody had /NEW set in their
> search list.   ...

You had it easy on the -10 development systems.  Possibly a draft:

PS:<LATEST-AND-GREATEST>, PS:<FIELD-TEST>, PS:<AUTOPATCH-TEST>,
PS:<NEW-SUBSYS>, PS:<SUBSYS>, PS:<OLD-SUBSYS>, PS:<NEW-UNSUPPORTED>,
PS:<UNSUPPORTED>, PS:<EMACS>


> >>...  You should also remember that
> >> the PDP-10 product line was ended as of 1983.
> >
> >With years of development taking place after that, ...
> 
> There is development and then there is doing the necessary
> work so that the whole package can be put on the shelf and
> forgotten.  ...

Many man-years of already-planned new development were done on
Fortran-10/20 after Jupiter's cancellation.  Doubtless VMS compatibility
features were moved up in the schedule and other things were cancelled
because of Jupiter, though.


>... When the cancellation of Jupiter happened, the
> developement and maintenance groups merged (they were no
> longer under two different VP organizations) and our sole
> object was to put ourselves out of business.  That was in 1983,
> I think.  ...

It was decided before 19-May-82 to transfer TSG's maintenance functions
to engineering.  KO didn't announce the cancellation of Jupiter to MR
until 17-May-83, almost a year later.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 137 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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"Alan H. Martin" wrote:
> 
> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <39673CCA.A87A1805@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
> >    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
> > >FORHST.MAC, the revision history file started on 12-Mar-79 for
> > >FOROTS V6 (and then left fallow until 20-Mar-80).
> ...
> > You say "lie fallow".  Now, that might have been true for
> > FOROTS.  ...
> 
> That one-year gap probably means that even the developers thought they
> were stil doing basic development.
> 
> > edit number assignations ...
> > usually was done when a test bed of the software was
> > put up on NEW: on the TOPS-10 development system.  Eventually
> > that set would be put on SYS: to ensure that the software was
> > the only one used (not everybody had /NEW set in their
> > search list.   ...
> 
> You had it easy on the -10 development systems.  Possibly a draft:
> 
> PS:<LATEST-AND-GREATEST>, PS:<FIELD-TEST>, PS:<AUTOPATCH-TEST>,
> PS:<NEW-SUBSYS>, PS:<SUBSYS>, PS:<OLD-SUBSYS>, PS:<NEW-UNSUPPORTED>,
> PS:<UNSUPPORTED>, PS:<EMACS>
> 
> > >>...  You should also remember that
> > >> the PDP-10 product line was ended as of 1983.
> > >
> > >With years of development taking place after that, ...
> >
> > There is development and then there is doing the necessary
> > work so that the whole package can be put on the shelf and
> > forgotten.  ...
> 
> Many man-years of already-planned new development were done on
> Fortran-10/20 after Jupiter's cancellation.  Doubtless VMS compatibility
> features were moved up in the schedule and other things were cancelled
> because of Jupiter, though.
> 
> >... When the cancellation of Jupiter happened, the
> > developement and maintenance groups merged (they were no
> > longer under two different VP organizations) and our sole
> > object was to put ourselves out of business.  That was in 1983,
> > I think.  ...
> 
> It was decided before 19-May-82 to transfer TSG's maintenance functions
> to engineering.  KO didn't announce the cancellation of Jupiter to MR
> until 17-May-83, almost a year later.
>                                 /AHM
I still like the original code name for the KC10 - Hepahastus.
Yep, equiv of Vulcan, husband of venus, and in one story, ate the
children of Venus.  That was why I proposed the name.
just bob

> --
> Alan Howard Martin                              AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 138 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TECO version 124
Date: 10 Jul 2000 00:15:46 -0700
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <544s5ylal9.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>
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If this is a copy with about two cisco email messages in it from circa 1988,
then it probably came from me originally (at least I've got a 1994
timestamped copy with that corruption, and I don't believe that I downloaded
it.)  I'm not quite sure how it got to the download site - probably from
cisco's 20s to XKL's 20s or somesuch...

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)


Article 142 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <8k70t6$qdd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>

>>I can believe that some guy named "Don Witcraft" signed DEC PDP-10
>>software with "DAW" before Dave Wright worked for LCG, not least because
>>"Don Witcraft" doesn't sound familiar to me and it sounds like he was
>>probably well before my time..
>
>He was before my time :-).

For all of you "late comers" who never heard of "some guy named Don Witcraft", 
let me elucidate. Don was practically a "founding father", having worked on 
the PDP-6 monitor before the PDP-10 was built.

How many here remember working on the -6 before the monitor was capable of 
swapping? Remember shuffling? Remember "gentleman's timesharing"? Remember 
yelling, "can anyone 'CORE 0' so I can run an assembly"? Donald A. Witcraft 
(DAW) designed and implemented swapping in late 1966.

When I joined DEC in September 1966 I was assigned a desk in an office I 
shared with Don Witcraft, Maury Fredriksen, and Tony Wachs. Don was an evening 
person. While the swapping monitor was being debugged/tested, we ran the 
shuffler in the morning, and after Don arrived (about noon), the swapper in 
the afternoon. At first, because of the crash rate people stayed away in 
droves. Don persevered, and eventually swapping became something we all just 
took for granted.

After getting swapping fully implemented and debugged, Don looked for another 
challenge. Gordon Bell (at CMU during this period) and Adrian Van Der Goor 
(one of Gordon's grad students) proposed a hardware mod to allow timesharing 
on the PDP-8. DEC decided to give it a try, and Don and I were the monitor 
development team. Don did the scheduler, UUO handler, and the command decoder. 
I did the disk support and file system, the TTY scanner (680i), and the 
character routing code. The result was TSS-8, what we believed was the first 
commercial minicomputer timesharing system.

Don left DEC soon after TSS-8 was deemed releasable for a firm on the west 
coast. I lost track of him years ago. I've often wondered what became of him.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <wwn1jmn306.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>, 
thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu says...
>
>Yup, but until the KA support left (6.01?) the shuffler was still there.
>Or .... wasn't that the same thing - VM == 6.01 ?  But if there are any
>KA's left running 5.07 (or whatever :-) the shuffler lives :-)

Nothing to do with maintainer's initials, but this reminds me of a running 
debate I had with TW and JMF over the viability of shuffling. I wanted to try 
an experiment where shuffling was removed from the KA monitor. I proposed that 
all memory management be done via swapping. I thought we were wasting an awful 
lot of processor time doing big BLTs in exec mode. I proposed expanding BIGHOL 
by swapping adjacent jobs in order to fit in a runnable, but disk resident 
job. I recognized that the DC-10 was going to steal memory cycles to 
accomplish the task, but thought it might just be worth it.

Although we discussed this sporadically over the years, I was never able to 
convince anyone to allocate the resources to just give it a try and see what 
the results would be. I think a lot of it was because as time went by the KA 
became less and less important, and my proposal was perceived more and more as 
an intellectual exercise.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett



Article 171 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 maintainers' initials
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 08:21:09 GMT
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In article <wwn1jkmkpw.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes:
>
> /BAH> Perhaps you should just ask on a per module basis when somebody
> /BAH> remembers...or can't remember.
>
>But it will be neater (TM) to have a complete list.  It's just a few TECO
>macros, after all :-)

Heh, heh.  That was usually TW's famous last words...and
then he'ld resurface for air a couple of weeks later
with a ton of war stories.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 203 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-10 Monitor source conventions
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 10:31:59 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <_XWd5.304$9W4.20420@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <3977A6CB.45325E41@prescienttech.com>, 
>carl.friend@prescienttech.com says...
>>
>>   I've just recently started digging into some of the PDP-10 Monitor
>>sources (drivers, especially), and am wondering if anyone can explain
>>the usages of the various AC notations (e.g. "P", "T1", "T2", &c.) to
>>a comparative newbie to Monitor internals.
>>
>>   Any pointers to relevant doco (or outright help) will be most
>>appreciated!  Thanks.
>
>Monitor coding conventions were described in a document 
>called LEVELD.MEM that 
>was written by Tom Hastings (TH). I wonder if this is 
>still available on one 
>of the various web sites devoted to the -10.

If BLKC had been preserved it would have still been in bits.
LEVELD.MEM was also in the functional spec part of the Software
Notebooks (but I can't remember is some "enterprising" writer
deleted it as they did some of the other specs.  I had saved
every spec that had been deleted from the Notebooks and all
of those resided in a box in my office marked "Old Documentation".
The box is another item that seems to have disappeared after I
got sick and couldn't guard it anymore.
>
>As I recall, this document defined such things as the tabbing conventions 
>between the various fields in a line of code, the indenting of the CPOPJ 
>return, that there should be a comment per line of code, that subroutines 
>should have a comment field at their head that starts 
>"HERE TO", etc., etc.
>
>I don't recall if LEVELD.MEM defined AC naming conventions. 
>Prior to the 5 series monitor, each module had its own 
>coding conventions and AC names. Some 
>of the metamorphoses of commonly used AC names I remember were:
>
>PDP > P
>TAC > T1
>TAC1 > T2
>DDB > F
>
>There were surely other AC names in common use pre-5 series 
>that changed, and others whose names were specific to one 
>module or another. These all became common with the 5 series.
>
>BTW, the 5 series introduced the "Level-D" disk service, 
>a complete redesign of the file system. The design was done 
>by Tom Hasting, Chris White, and Tony 
>Wachs; and coded by Tony. LEVELD.MEM was part of that 
>design effort, but was 
>adopted monitor wide. The Level-D disk service was originally a two module 
>effort, COMMOD.MAC, and FILSER.MAC. I was never sure if the "D" in COMMOD 
>stood for "Level-D", or "Disk". I always assumed "Disk". FILSER.MAC soon 
>proved to be unwieldly (read, hard to fit into a listing binder) and was 
>broken into three seperate modules, FILUUO, FILINT, and FILFND.

I don't remember FILINT; FILSER was still alive and well when
I stopped working. 

> (I'm not 100% 
>sure about the name FILFND, and am happy to be proven wrong).

FILFND was still around, IIRC.
>
>The breakup of FILSER was done by TW at the same time I 
>was implementing multiple RIB support and Don Black (I believe) 
>was separating the monitor into pure and impure segments. 
>SOUPing this all back together was a bitch.

SOUPing anything was a bitch if the commentary heard over
the walls was any indicator :-).

The fingers that are typing this post are the ones that split
up COMMON.MAC when it got too large for even the halest of
men to tote from the bookcase to a desk.  I started the edit
during the morning shift.  I was replaced by, I think, Nadine
the next shift.  They monitor guys asked me if I could stay
and finish the edit.  I agreed as long as they could give me
a ride home (I had no car at that time).  At 22:00, Alan 
Frantz decided he wanted to go home and I was only 2/3 of the
way through the edit.  One of the monitor guys (I hope it was
Tom Hastings) finished the edit.

Now, I was not a slow editor.  However, Tom Hastings did the markup.
And dear Tom marked the macro expansions, not the actual code.
So no N-search would find the damn page that the mark was on.
Tom was one of my least favorite people that night.  

/BAH

 


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 400 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Timothy Stark's emulator
Date: 08 Aug 2000 23:31:33 -0700
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    Unfortunately, he's squandered most of that in reinventing the wheel.
    He's still fighting the wars of the 1970s.  He's still reimplementing
    1970s software: EMACS, UNIX utilities, etc.

    But there's limits to reimplementing.  That's why there is no GNU Windows
    (much less GNU NT), GNU Office, GNU Quicken, etc.  It's beyond their
    capabilities.  There isn't even a GNU MacOS, so they can't even make it
    into the mid-1980s of software technology.

It's more than that, and less.  GNU, Linux, and and awful lot of the open
source stuff is based on the belief that a single brilliant programmer CAN
write "the killer app or os", which would then be modified and tweaked by
relatively small numbers of hackers until it was the very image of
perfection.

I'm afraid that Those Days Are Gone.  Your basic unix kernel and tool set
may be forever the largest example of what can be done with that sort of
workforce.  Todays apps take large teams of engineers to put together.
Hell, todays apps take large teams of engineers just to keep running as the
world changes around them.

I'm constantly amazed as I read alt.sys.pdp10 just how FEW people worked on
the software at DEC, compared to a "modern" SW development company like
cisco (for instance.)  We probably have more engineers quit in any given
year than EVER worked on tops20, and I think we're pretty tiny compared to
microsoft.  Sadly (?), those brilliant programmers that were the stars of
the 70s and early 80s tend to be the ones that don't work very well in the
modern "team" environment (and likewise for the hackers who do the refining
steps that are supposed to come afterward.)

We're starting to see large products released as "open source" (ie
Netscape's Mozilla.)  It'll be interesting to see how that develops.

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)


Article 904 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:17:39 -0700
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Bill Todd wrote
>As for the remaining discussion of why VAX was 32 rather than 36 bits, my
>impression is that IBM's System/360-370 was at least starting to move the
>industry toward de facto standardization on 8-bit bytes at the time (though
>some tolerance for other widths persists to this day).  Also, the PDP-11
>represented DEC's most recent cut at a completely new architecture, whereas
>the 36-bit line was fully mature at the time and *may* have been considered
>burdened with sub-optimal legacy constraints (I'd expect Gordon Bell to
have
>written something relevant to this question, but have no idea where you'd
>find it).

see http://research.microsoft.com/users/GBell/Bell_Smithsonian_Interview.htm
for a Gordon Bell interview from summer of 1995.  It covers this,
plus the rise and fall of DEC and lots more.


>And there seem likely to have been at least some advantages to
>maintaining 'cultural compatibility' with the 11 in both hardware and
>software.  And, as has been noted, DEC already had multiple successful
>36-bit products - but nothing to compete with the 32-bit products that
>competitors were known to be exploring.
>
> ...
>
>So if VAXes competed successfully with 10s and 20s for PDP-11 customer
>upgrades, it was at least in part because those customers perceived that
the
>VAX had greater value to them (even if it did cost more per address bit -
>though if the 10/20 really did have only 18 address bits your cost-per-bit
>analysis that I cut may have been flawed).  Why?  Possibly 'cultural
>compatibility' (which would suggest that VAX's 32-bit decision was a wise
>one, at least for this market).  Possibly perception of an industry
>sea-change away from the older architectures.  Possibly the large virtual
>address space (if indeed the 10/20 had only 18 bits there - sorry to keep
>bringing that up if I'm wrong about it).
>
>But for whatever reasons the VAX was wildly successful - well before any
>hint of dropping the 36-bit line surfaced.  Suggesting that it would have
>been more successful had it supported 4 additional address bits seems a bit
>of a stretch without some clear supporting evidence.

Yes, Bell's interview says that DEC's plan to eliminate all product lines
except for VAXes and low-end PDP-11 came from him, well after VAX
was introduced; it came to him during a Tahiti vacation.

  -- Duane Sand






Article 938 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:11:55 -0700
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Duane Sand wrote:
> 
>      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
> 
> Yes, Bell's interview says that DEC's plan to eliminate all product lines
> except for VAXes and low-end PDP-11 came from him, well after VAX
> was introduced; it came to him during a Tahiti vacation.
> 
Now all the 36-bitters from DEC know who to blame for the rape of the 36-bit
line.  Or maybe they already knew...I thought I detected some negativity from
that group when Gordon Bell was discussed.  Certainly I was disappointed in
Bell when I heard this...seems he stabbed a lot of 36-bit customers in the
back and lost a lot of paying business for DEC.

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


Article 945 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 00 08:17:28 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <8o7ju4$jvf$1@murrow.corp.sgi.com>,
   mash@mash.engr.sgi.com (John R. Mashey) wrote:
>In article <39A7357A.8E713045@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond 
<richmond@ev1.net> writes:
>|> Duane Sand wrote:
>|> > 
>|> >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
>|> > 
>|> > Yes, Bell's interview says that DEC's plan to eliminate all product 
lines
>|> > except for VAXes and low-end PDP-11 came from him, well after VAX
>|> > was introduced; it came to him during a Tahiti vacation.
>|> > 
>|> Now all the 36-bitters from DEC know who to blame for the rape of the 
36-bit
>|> line.  Or maybe they already knew...I thought I detected some 
negativity from
>|> that group when Gordon Bell was discussed.  Certainly I was 
disappointed in
>|> Bell when I heard this...seems he stabbed a lot of 36-bit customers in 
the
>|> back and lost a lot of paying business for DEC.
>
>1) This is hardly new news.
>
>2) The 36-bit fans were rightly devoted to their systems ... but,
>after all, this decisions was not unlike IBM's decision to stop doing
>36-bitters in favor of 32-bitters, and while comp.arch regularly beats
>up on the VAX ... it did make a *lot* of money for DEC, and it was the
>basis for what was probably DEC's best set of years, and it certainly
>caused trouble for DEC's competitors.
<snip>

I suggest that you do some more analyses.  The VAXes running
VMS never replaced the computer power of a TOPS-10 SMP system,
where "computer power" is measured by users' work that gets
accomplished per unit of time.

I don't consider it a coincidence that DEC started bleeding
in the red when the PDP-10 software line finished.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 948 of alt.sys.pdp10:
From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: 26 Aug 2000 09:43:25 -0400
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In article <39A7357A.8E713045@ev1.net>,
Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:
>Duane Sand wrote:
>> 
>>      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
>> 
>> Yes, Bell's interview says that DEC's plan to eliminate all product lines
>> except for VAXes and low-end PDP-11 came from him, well after VAX
>> was introduced; it came to him during a Tahiti vacation.
>> 
>Now all the 36-bitters from DEC know who to blame for the rape of the 36-bit
>line.  Or maybe they already knew...I thought I detected some negativity from
>that group when Gordon Bell was discussed.  Certainly I was disappointed in
>Bell when I heard this...seems he stabbed a lot of 36-bit customers in the
>back and lost a lot of paying business for DEC.
>

I can't speak to this specific incident (the abandonment of all lines 
except VAX and certain PDP-11s), but there was a discussion thread
in comp.os.vms awhile back with people assigning various groups 
(the IBM people who came in in the late 70's/early 80's, the Honeywell 
people, etc.  etc. etc.) for DEC's ultimate decline.

C'mon people, that's lazy thinking.  That's exactly the kind of
thinking that says that the neighborhood declined after <fill in
your favorite group here> moved in.  It's scapegoating and it's
easy and it's almost certainly wrong.

Remember, it was Ken Olsen who said that nobody would possibly
want a computer at home.  And now we see that it was Gordon Bell
who narrowed the product lines down to the point that DEC was 
inflexible to the point that they were unable to change when
the market and technology did.

Ken Olsen and Gordon Bell were hardly newcomers to DEC.  

Personally, I think what killed DEC was arrogance.  They had 
been so successful with the "DEC way of doing things" that they
simply could not adjust their thinking to a new marketplace.

Problem is, they really misidentified what the "DEC way of
doing things" actually was.  DECs success wasn't built on
increased focus, but rather with chaos, with Engineers
free to build the absolute best products without regard
for some broad strategic plan.

DEC became a company that felt that competition with itself
was a bad thing, when their success was built upon having
multiple overlapping product lines.  I'm concerned that 
Compaq also has this mindset that they won't compete with
themselves.  IIRC, a Compaq person even said as much at
a DECUS conference awhile back.

>-- 
>+-------------------------------------------------------------+
>|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
>+-------------------------------------------------------------+

-Jordan Henderson
jordan@greenapple.com


Article 979 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 10:21:25 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <8o8ofo$i7o$1@pyrite.mv.net>,
   "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:
>
>Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message
>news:8o8hht$aau$1@lisa.gemair.com...
>
>....
>
>> I can't speak to this specific incident (the abandonment of all lines
>> except VAX and certain PDP-11s), but there was a discussion thread
>> in comp.os.vms awhile back with people assigning various groups
>> (the IBM people who came in in the late 70's/early 80's, the Honeywell
>> people, etc.  etc. etc.) for DEC's ultimate decline.
>>
>> C'mon people, that's lazy thinking.  That's exactly the kind of
>> thinking that says that the neighborhood declined after <fill in
>> your favorite group here> moved in.  It's scapegoating and it's
>> easy and it's almost certainly wrong.
>
>Or it could be your own analysis that's lazy.  The fact is that DEC's
>approach to product direction changed significantly over a brief period
>during the early '80s from a largely bottom-up approach to a top-down one.
>This coincided with and/or closely followed continuing rapid growth, the
>appearance of VAX/VMS, and the influx of a large number of people from
>Honeywell, IBM, and likely other identifiable sources 
>I can't remember - all
>of which I suspect played some role in the direction change.
>
>>
>> Remember, it was Ken Olsen who said that nobody would possibly
>> want a computer at home.
>
>At a time, IIRC, when this was pretty unequivocably true.  

Right.  And for all kinds of reasons.  Footprint, power, 
support costs, initial purchase costs, and usage.


>It's too bad that
>this specific instance of non-prescience (shared by most 
>of the rest of the
>industry, IIRC - Apple was 'way too small to be a noticeable part of the
>industry back then, and didn't IBM initially develop the PC primarily for
>business use?) clings so conspicuously to a man whose accomplishments (and
>earlier vision) were so significant.

However, the PDP-10 line was beginning to move computing outside
of the computer room.  Just about every one of us had a terminal
and modem and called in to the computer daily..even though we
also moved our bodied into work.  

>
>  And now we see that it was Gordon Bell
>> who narrowed the product lines down to the point that DEC was
>> inflexible to the point that they were unable to change when
>> the market and technology did.
>
>A generalization which does not seem to apply to the 
>point under discussion:

It was a speech made by Bell that triggered all of the
middle management to, almost overnight, change the way
we did business.  And it was a speech where, if the 
sentence about having only one operating system had been
taken in context, those business decisions would have 
never been made.  Bell's sin was not stopping the madness.

>the market and technology changes that DEC failed to follow (or, better,
>lead) were not in directions that the 36-bit machines would have helped
>address.

You've got to be kidding.  It was the 36-bit _timesharing_
machines that took the computer work out of the lab.
No longer did one have to wait for a card job to get done.
Our implementations of timesharing gave users the impression
that they had the system all to themselves...just like you
now have with the PCs.  A good timesharing operating system
preserved that illusion with respect to all system resources.
People could make mistakes with their doors locked and produce
lots of programs to manipulate the data in the exact way
these users wanted it manipulated.  They didn't have to submit
purchase requests for a programmer.


>> Ken Olsen and Gordon Bell were hardly newcomers to DEC.
>
>No, but they were increasingly working with intermediate 
>levels of managers
>who *were* relative newcomers, which is why I suspect that imported
>mind-sets may have played a part.  Both Olsen and Bell 
>were *used* to taking
>input from the people who reported to them:  it was 
>the inclination of those
>people to do the same with their own reports (and so on recursively) which
>changed, at a time when the size of DEC made it increasingly difficult for
>lower-level contributors to influence Olsen and Bell directly.

That was the 80s, not the 70s; and by then, it was too late.  Also
note that software was not considered important to selling the
hardware.  Bell systematically played politics and removed any
high level management whose expertise was based on software rather
than hardware.  And this is where I blame Olsen...allowing Bell
to eliminate software knowledge at the VP level.

<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 978 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 00 10:06:13 GMT
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In article <8o8hht$aau$1@lisa.gemair.com>,
   jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) wrote:
>In article <39A7357A.8E713045@ev1.net>,
>Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:
>>Duane Sand wrote:
>>> 
>>>      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
>>> 
>>> Yes, Bell's interview says that DEC's plan to eliminate all product 
lines
>>> except for VAXes and low-end PDP-11 came from him, well after VAX
>>> was introduced; it came to him during a Tahiti vacation.
>>> 
>>Now all the 36-bitters from DEC know who to blame for the rape of the 
36-bit
>>line.  Or maybe they already knew...I thought I detected some negativity 
from
>>that group when Gordon Bell was discussed.  Certainly I was disappointed 
in
>>Bell when I heard this...seems he stabbed a lot of 36-bit customers in 
the
>>back and lost a lot of paying business for DEC.
>>
>
>I can't speak to this specific incident (the abandonment of all lines 
>except VAX and certain PDP-11s), but there was a discussion thread
>in comp.os.vms awhile back with people assigning various groups 
>(the IBM people who came in in the late 70's/early 80's, the Honeywell 
>people, etc.  etc. etc.) for DEC's ultimate decline.
>
>C'mon people, that's lazy thinking.  That's exactly the kind of
>thinking that says that the neighborhood declined after <fill in
>your favorite group here> moved in.  It's scapegoating and it's
>easy and it's almost certainly wrong.
>
>Remember, it was Ken Olsen who said that nobody would possibly
>want a computer at home.  

At the time he said it, those computers took too much
power and cost too much to maintain.  Remember, those
computers needed a person with specialized training to
to triage.  Also, board replacement was not the first
thing to do to solve a problem.  Software support was
even more complicated at that time.

>And now we see that it was Gordon Bell
>who narrowed the product lines down to the point that DEC was 
>inflexible to the point that they were unable to change when
>the market and technology did.
>
>Ken Olsen and Gordon Bell were hardly newcomers to DEC.  
>
>Personally, I think what killed DEC was arrogance.  They had 
>been so successful with the "DEC way of doing things" that they
>simply could not adjust their thinking to a new marketplace.

You are right about the arrogance.  You are incorrect about
the adjustment part.  What happened is that we stopped
listening to our customers.  And that was caused by a
rapid decline of customer contact with the people who
did the real work.  Given a choice of sending the 
product line manager and somebody on JMF's or TW's
level to DECUS, the product line manager always went.

>
>Problem is, they really misidentified what the "DEC way of
>doing things" actually was.  DECs success wasn't built on
>increased focus, but rather with chaos, with Engineers
>free to build the absolute best products without regard
>for some broad strategic plan.

That's not quite right.  The way we produced a product for
the general customer population was based on hard/software
developed for one particular customer.  After all the lessons
were learned for the site-specific stuff, the good parts of
BOTH hardware and software were translated into the 
product lines.  This sort of development declined, too.

>
>DEC became a company that felt that competition with itself
>was a bad thing, when their success was built upon having
>multiple overlapping product lines.  I'm concerned that 
>Compaq also has this mindset that they won't compete with
>themselves.  IIRC, a Compaq person even said as much at
>a DECUS conference awhile back.

Yup.  They've inherited the folklore.  One of the problems
with overlapping product lines was that there was no metric
to evaluate profit and loss.  Most of the figuring was done
on a hardware revenue basis.  So all the minis that were sold
as a result of a PDP-10 installation was counted as a mini
revenue and subtracted from the -10 revenue.

What nobody seems to remember is that the guys (I think we
called them financial aides at the time) who did the accounting
were starting to make policy and development decisions.  And
some of these guys had never logged into a computer system in
their life.  They had no idea what business we were in.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1043 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!news.isi.edu!usenet
From: Greg Finn <finn@moo.isi.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: New acquisition!
Date: 31 Aug 2000 10:33:56 -0700
Organization: USC-ISI
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <6witshfi7v.fsf@moo.isi.edu>
References: <8ok3r2$js1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
	<PMhr5.15880$pu4.1146716@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
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Sadly, these early PDP-10 phonebooks were printed on very acidified
paper.  Mine is beginning to crumble at the binding.  Fortunately, I
have a set of 10 and 20 ring-binder manuals as well that used good
paper from my days in the 70's, bringing up machines fresh out of the
truck.

Time passes.  I'd hardly remember how to power them up now.  They were
really fun machines to use.  Someday UNIX will discover the COMND/TBLUK
jsys.

As a sidelight, XKL Systems recently made PDP-10 compatible machines.
That company is up Seattle way.  It was founded by Bozack & Lerner who
started Cisco.  I believe that Ralph Gorin, who wrote the DEC-20
assembly language book, works there.  I don't know what they are doing
now.

--- ggf



Article 1051 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: MG20 (was Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?)
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X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
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alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
> The followups seemed to say that MG20 was NFG for Tops-10 systems,
> apparently taking us down the garden path.

AFAIK, the MG20 works fine with TOPS-10, as did the MF20.  They're
actually nearly identical, with higher-capacity DRAM chips in the MG20,
but all the same control logic, ECC, etc.

The only problem with using the MA20, MB20, MF20, or MG20 with TOPS-10
is that it is not multi-ported memory, so it can't support multiple
CPUs or external (non-RH20) data channels.  Thus it was only suitable
for smaller DECsystem-10 configurations.

If DEC had designed a fast multiported semiconductor memory box with
some ports that would connect directly to the KL10 S-bus interface
(rather than the DMA20 KI memory bus adapter), they would have sold
a lot of them.  I imagine that the cancelled product Barb mentioned
must have been something like this.


Article 1039 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 00 10:22:15 GMT
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In article <39AD3D5D.6F1FE15D@bellatlantic.net>,
   hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>I will leave the previous exchanges in as I saw them. My comment is
>below.
>
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <39ab70a9.86436118@news.newsguy.com>,
>>    A.Greig@viirgin.net (Alan Greig) wrote:
>> >On Mon, 28 Aug 00 11:15:49 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>And how did that personal enthusiam get started?  By getting
>> >>an exposure to computing at an early age.  The -10s and -20s
>> >>got a lot of kids started when they were at college age.
>> >
>> >One of the few things I have in common with Bill Gates. Of course I
>> >didn't reverse engineer DEC Basic then make a fortune out of it.
>> >
>> >
>> >>>The 10/20 Jupiter fiasco was just the first (major) such blunder,
>> >>
>> >>No.  The first blunder was cancelling the MG20. (I think that's
>> >>the hardware name.)
>> >
>> >The major blunder in my opinion was lying to customers. We had heard
>> >the rumours about cancellation and called in DEC who absolutely point
>> >blank assured as that Jupiter would not be cancelled., Absolutely 100%
>> >categorically assured us.
>> 
>> Did you have a non-disclosure agreement?
>> 
>> >
>> >Then they cancelled it two weeks later.
>> 
>> And that was the best thing that could have happened.  If
>> the Jupiter project had continued, there would have been
>> no funding for implementing DECnet Phase III and IV.  The
>> company would have tanked in 1985 rather than 1995.
>Barb,
>I respect your opinions but I do not know the basis for this
>comment.  I could be wrong, my information is based on
>first hand data, and I had already left DEC LCG when the
>cancellation occurred.  Let me recount what I know and please
>correct or amplify what I say.
>
>KC-10 was 100K ECL based micromachine/engine implementation of 
>PDP10 ISP.  The chips used were from Fairchild - there was
>a risk there in our opinions, single source.
>
>The micromachines/engines were horizontally microcoded (i.e. VLIW micro
>instrcution). By the nature of the design, the I/O andwidth and Compute 
>power was programmable. note the word WAS..This means that you could 
>tune the balance between them in microcode.
> 
>Bugs Mclean and Ted Hess worked the simulator and a good bit of the
>microcode. Pat Sullivan did the memory - much like the MG design.
>Don M. and Bob E. did the microengines and a good bit of the microcode.
>
>Ron Bingham was the manger, with Don Lewine and Nat Kerlinovich as
>the front office trying to keep Bell and the vax folks out of our 
>day to day efforts.
>
>Hardware manufacturing cost - for the CPU card set - was just under
>50K. Just a little cheaper than the Venus prediction. The microcode
>interaction between the micromachines/engines was complex.  We did not
>have many tools beyond the simulator to verify interaction and 
>performance so we had to brute force the system at times.
>
>With a manufacturing cost of 50K for the cpu, a fairly aggressive markup
>would have really changed the $/MIPS formula used at the time. There was
>at the very least two majorly committed customers who planned to 
>purchase the first two years of production out right.
>
>How does your comment apply?

You are ignoring the cost of doing the software.  The hardware
isn't any damn good unless there's an operating system that
can run on it.  There wasn't much funding going into the
software side; all the money was going into the Jupiter
hardware project (we considered it a black hole).  Instead
of continuing to throw funding down a black hole, the cancellation
caused funding to be redirected to developing software.
There wouldn't have been any DECnet funding, making a Jupiter
system moot since it wouldn't have been online anywhere (they
weren't going to allow ANF-10 to hang off of that precious
gear).

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@earthling.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:21:42 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message
<8odsdb$em$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...
>>I *still* don't recall exactly when Olsen made the
infamous statement (let
>>alone its exact wording).  If he said it any time after
the IBM PC hit the
>>market, then I'll retract my above defense of him; if he
said it any time
>>before 1979, then I'll stand by every word of it (and if
it was
>>significantly earlier, I don't really see how any
fair-minded individual
>>could disagree).
>
>I don't remember the year.  I'll try to remember what I was
>doing when that piece of rumor went around my head.  I do
>remember most of us being flabberghasted by the sentiment
>since we all had terminals at home and used them.  And then
>we began to dream..having a -10 in the house...jeez...what
>JMF couldn't have done with that on his off time.
>
><snip>

From Cerf and Navasky, The Experts Speak (Pantheon
Press, 1984): "There is no reason for any individual to have
a computer in their home.", Ken Olson, Convention of the
World Future Society in Boston, 1977.
Source: Quoted by David H. Ahl in a 1982 interview with the
authors of the book.

In 1977, a lot of things were not clear. Apple was founded,
and computers were toys. On the other hand, Olson should
have realized shortly afterward that he had erred. Mistakes
happen, the important thing is to keep reviewing data and
make corrections when it is obvious a mistake was
made.
            Don







Article 1081 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 08:08:52 GMT
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In article <8p691a$sh6$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
   inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
>In article <qh1yz2gy6x.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
>Eric Smith  <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>>> The 1091 wouldn't even have happened if
>>> somebody sane (Alan Titcomb) hadn't funded the project.  That
>>> was another TOPS10 project that was a midnight hack (I'm using
>>> the word hack in the proper way...not the idiocy that seems
>>> to have evolved).
>>
>>What were the technical issues to making the 1091 work?
>>
>>My understanding is that the 1091 hardware was basically the same
>>as the 2060.  As compared to the 1090:
>>
>>
>>		1090				1091
>>		-------------------------	------------------------
>>memory		DMA20 memory interface to	"internal" memory 
(which
>>		KI10 external memory bus	sometimes is mounted
>>						externally):  MA20/MB20
>>						core or MF20/MG20 semi
>
>Internal MOS memory had spare bits.
>
>Memory can be visualized as 4M words, each with some number of bits.
>36 bits = raw data, no parity, no ECC.
>38 bits = 36 data bits + 2 parity bits (one per halfword).
>44 bits = 36 data bits + 8 ECC bits.
>
>The MOS memory box had more than the bare minimum needed for data + ECC.
>The additional columns of 4M bits were unused, unless the memory 
diagnostics
>detected a failure in a column of bits.  In that case, the memory 
controller
>would be reconfigured to use a different set of bits.
>
>As I understood it, the hardest part of the project of getting MOS memory
>to work with TOPS-10 was getting it to understand memory failure errors.
>The shipment of our 1091 to the Colorado School of Mines was held up until
>they could get TGHA working.

I'd forgotten about TGHA; that was another PITA (it was written
in BLISS-10).  Also, the TGHA work was not under the control
of LCG but under the control of field service.  Thus, in order
to get that group to do anything one had to go to the level
of vice president if noone wanted to compromise.  The people
doing the work were rarely available (never did know why) for
setting down and wrangling out the problems.  It seemed as if
even the most simple technical problem had to involve third and
fourth level managers.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1107 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: Jupiter (was Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?)
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data path was 36bits.
Address path was 30bits - I won't get into that.
MBOX was (not counting ECC) 36bits to cache and 36bits to CPU but 
quadword fetch from the memory array.
Cache was four way set associative.
bo

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <8p9kpg$25cr$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
>    inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
> >In article <qhd7ipmcix.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
> >Eric Smith  <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
> >>A.Greig@viirgin.net (Alan Greig) wrote:
> >>> Even the worst figures I've seen for the 2080
> >>> put it at 10 times the performance of the VAX 11-780.
> >>
> >>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
> >>> Whoopy-skip.  It wouldn't have run a TOPS operating system.
> >>
> >>Really?  What would a 2080 have run, then?
> >
> >The third-party 36-bit CPU from Systems Concepts was bug compatible with
> >a KL - you could take a unmodified SYSTEM.EXE and run it
> >on their hardware.
> 
> Here's a question.  Was the Jupiter 36-bits?  I never saw one
> so I really don't know.
> 
> >
> >The 2080 (and the XKL) were improvements on the KL design.
> >TOPS-10 had to be modified to run on the 1080 when the KL came out, and
> >modified again to run on the 2020 when the KS came out.
> 
> I wouldn't call having to write a completely new CPU module
> as a modification, Joe :-).  I usually thought of them as
> the CPU device driver; note that nobody else in my hearing
> ever called them that.  Thus we had KASER, KISER, KLSER, and
> KSSER.
> 
> >I think Barb's point is that even if the Jupiter hardware was ready,
> >the software was not.
> 
> The device specific software could not be started until there
> was some hardware to run it on.  It is a rule of computing that
> specs never matched the hardware.
> 
> >  Neither TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 would have run on the
> >2080 until after many man-months of tweaking the software.
> 
> Tweaking, Joe?  You might try rewriting.
> 
> >  And software
> >was not a priority (?!).
> 
> Software was never a priority for the hardware types.  We
> constantly had to fight to have a piece of new hardware
> put on the system so developing, and more importantly,
> testing could be done.  There were always stories about
> delivery of a piece of gear to a customer, and astonishment
> on DEC's part when the customer asked for the software
> to be able to use it.
> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1116 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Message-ID: <39BB5A92.37C0F6A1@trailing-edge.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:55:30 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
Organization: Trailing Edge Technology
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Subject: Re: visual interpretation of algorithms. -> Sound interpretation of   algorythmes.
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Mark Sterk wrote:
> An ex DEC employee told me that some freaks at DEC made a program for a PDP-11 that played a song if you placed an
> AM-radio next to it.
> 
> If some of you still have this program, please mail it to me.

I don't know about a program for all -11's that'll do that (I would
guess that the drastically different architectural implementations
and timing differences would make it non-portable), but if you
have an old enough PDP-10 you'll find "Music System for the PDP-10:
Version 1, November 1969" online at

  http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0011/index.html

The abstract is below:

  Author: P. R. Samson and R. Clements, MIT and Digital Equipment
  Corporation 

  Source Language: MACRO-10 Special Hardware Required:
  MK10 or transistor radio Other Software Required: Time-Sharing
  Monitor (DEC-10-MTC0) Keywords: Music 

  Abstract: This program is a complete music-compiling and playing
  system for the PDP-10. MUSIC is compiled under the timesharing
  system and played in the executive mode. An initial library, mostly
  Bach and Beatles, is supplied to which users are encouraged to submit
  additions. 

  DEC-20 Review Note: Designed to be an executive-mode program,
  which cannot be run on the "20." Not part of the "20" Library. 

  Documentation on magnetic media. 

  Media (Service Charge Code): Write-Up (AA), DECtape (HA),
  600' Magtape (MA), or order 10-LIB-1 

The comments in MCOMP.MAC, the "music compiler" say

  TITLE MCOMP - P R SAMSON MUSIC COMPILER - DEC V3 - 19 NOV 69
  SUBTTL  MODIFIED FOR TIMESHARING BY R CLEMENTS, DEC. /RCC
  VMCOMP=3                ;VERSION NUMBER
  ;MUSIC COMPILER WRITTEN BY PETER R SAMSON, MIT PROJECT MAC.
  ;THIS COMPILER IS COMPATIBLE IN SOURCE AND OUTPUT WITH THE
  ;PREVIOUS COMPILER, FOR THE PDP-1 COMPUTER.

indicating a direct lineage from the original PDP-1 music system.

Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com)


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Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> writes:
> > Address path was 30bits - I won't get into that.
> 
> If it supported 30-bit physical addresses, I'd very much like to
> know the details of the changes to the page table entries.
As Barb has said the software lagged the design, probably rather a
good thing too.  I do not recall the impact, I know we were focussing
on Fortran first.
bob

> 
> Cheers,
> Eric


Article 1137 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Jupiter (was Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 10:57:46 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <8po1fv$m7a$2@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <39BD6B9A.22B21A35@bellatlantic.net>,
   hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Eric Smith wrote:
>> 
>> hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> writes:
>> > Address path was 30bits - I won't get into that.
>> 
>> If it supported 30-bit physical addresses, I'd very much like to
>> know the details of the changes to the page table entries.

>As Barb has said the software lagged the design, probably rather a
>good thing too.  

And I guess you don't understand that the software _has_
to lag the hardware design.  It not a good or bad thing;
it's just a fact of life.


>I do not recall the impact, I know we were focussing
>on Fortran first.

I know the Fortran people were getting talked to but
that just a complete waste of time.  Until you get an
operating system working that the Fortran compiler and OTS
and run under, the language people might just as well
suck their thumbs.  Instead some were coding for a 
ficticious Jupiter during their rewrite of FOROTS.
This was a practice that I did manage to stop.

I think the question had to do with how the addresses were laid
out by the hardware.  But I'm still munching on that
explanation of 4-way associative cache so the probability
that I'm wrong is 98%.  I do know that the question had
nothing to do with user apps, which is what Fortran is
compared to an OS.


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1196 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Spider Boardman <spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:18:41 -0400
Organization: Duchy of Wabesylvan Obspauk
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Message-ID: <39C38F50.9235B1AF@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
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/BAH wrote (in part):

> >..finally said "Enough is enough!" and killed it (but kept 10/20
> >software development moving forward for several years more).
> >Caveat lector:
> >I'm sure others have different understandings of what
> >happened and freely admit that my own is purely hearsay
> >(though hearsay from that time period).
>
> Yup.  It was hearsay.  I haven't heard a whisper of what
> really happened, either then or now.

I had a 'midnight conversation' with one of the managers associated with that
project a few years later.  The Jupiter was definitely
 (1) Late and getting later
 (2) Showing no promise of having anything like acceptable performance.

At the time, at least one customer noted that as late is it was getting, the
Jupiter would have had to achieve 8x KL performance to be truly acceptable.
It had been hyped at 4x, and was showing signs that it would probably fall
below even 1.6x a KL.  Couple that with its architectural lack of SMP support,

and it's no wonder it got the axe.

Being at the Las Vegas DECUS in '83 just after the cancellation announcement
was definitely an interesting expercience, too.

--
Spider Boardman (at home)                     spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US
The management (my cats) made me say this.    http://www.ultranet.com/~spiderb
PGP public key fingerprint: 96 72 D2 C6 E0 92 32 89  F6 B2 C2 A0 1C AB 1F DC





Article 1197 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Spider Boardman <spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Help! CTY device problems.
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:24:53 -0400
Organization: Duchy of Wabesylvan Obspauk
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <39C390C5.F7B489AC@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
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/BAH wrote (in part):

> It sounds like the character interrupt isn't happening.  If
> he's running 7.03, that's one set of code.  I believe that
> Spider revamped a lot of that code as for 7.04.

Most of the re-write (80% of SCNSER) was done in 7.03, FWIW.

--
Spider Boardman (at home)                     spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US
The management (my cats) made me say this.    http://www.ultranet.com/~spiderb
PGP public key fingerprint: 96 72 D2 C6 E0 92 32 89  F6 B2 C2 A0 1C AB 1F DC





Article 1198 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Spider Boardman <spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: .net alt.g
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:22:46 -0400
Organization: Duchy of Wabesylvan Obspauk
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <39C39046.F9A2A87F@Orb.Nashua.NH.US>
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Joe Smith wrote:

> In article <39A2BF6B.B2AA910B@hda.hydro.com>,
> Terje Mathisen  <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:
> >> So I agree with Johnny: the OS is to blame, not the hardware.
> >
> >There is absolutely no excuse for an OS which cannot keep up with it's
> >own timer tick.
>
> Yep.  But OSes that use just one single interrupt level for timing have
> problems.
>
> The PDP-10 OSes did it right.  The time-of-day interrupt (60 or 50 Hz)
> happened at priority level 1; the highest level of interrupt.  The
> timer routine was extremely short - it incremented some counters and
> triggered a low-priority software initiated interrupt.  The clock-level
> interrupt (priority level 7; the lowest) handled details like running
> the scheduler code for pre-emptive multitasking.  It was no big deal if
> the clock-level interrupt was delayed for several timer ticks by higher
> level interrupts.
>
> With the timer code at the highest level interrupt, the system never
> lost a timer tick.

That's not strictly true, though.  It often lost timer ticks, since a lot of

activities masked out the highest-level interrupts.  We finally fixed it
(maybe for 7.04, maybe not until 7.05) by using the hardware registers that
tracked the timer and making sure to correct for the missed interrupts.

--
Spider Boardman (at home)                     spider@Orb.Nashua.NH.US
The management (my cats) made me say this.    http://www.ultranet.com/~spiderb
PGP public key fingerprint: 96 72 D2 C6 E0 92 32 89  F6 B2 C2 A0 1C AB 1F DC





Article 1235 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 screen log with 'SET W V F'.
Date: 19 Sep 2000 19:23:37 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.00Sep19122337@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <Gpdx5.17451$SN6.426798@news4.giganews.com> <8q4ok8$pp$2@bob.news.rcn.net>
Reply-To: alderson+netcom@panix.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.66
X-Server-Date: 19 Sep 2000 19:23:38 GMT
In-reply-to: jmfbahciv@aol.com's message of Mon, 18 Sep 00 06:45:21 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1235

In article <8q4ok8$pp$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

> In article <Gpdx5.17451$SN6.426798@news4.giganews.com>,
>    Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:

>> My screen log:

>> KS10 Sunday 17-Sep-100 20:15:18

> Is the year really 100?

Barb, I told you a long time ago that we fixed a bunch of Y2K stuff in Tops-10
when we were working on it.  You told me it never happened.  ;-)
--
Rich Alderson						   alderson@netcom.com
		     until 30 Sept 2000, when shell accounts go away from here.
					       I'll post from Panix after that.
  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless


Article 1234 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: ADVENT.DRW?  DRW format?
Date: 19 Sep 2000 19:14:44 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <ALDERSON.00Sep19121444@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <qhya1ffwxq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <39C35A31.B5A6B454@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Reply-To: alderson+netcom@panix.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.66
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In-reply-to: "Alan H. Martin"'s message of Sat, 16 Sep 2000 07:32:01 -0400
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1234

In article <39C35A31.B5A6B454@MA.UltraNet.Com> "Alan H. Martin"
<AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:

> Eric Smith wrote:

>> Anyone have a copy of ADVENT.DRW?
>> (apparently originally from PS:<SHOOP>ADVENT.DRW, 01-SEP-78 13:31)
>> It's drawing D-MP-ADVEN-0-MAP, next higher assembly B-DD-ADVEN-0-GAME.

>> What is the format of TOPS-20 .DRW files?

> I once saw an enormous ADVENT map done as a DEC blueprint, with design
> review sign-offs, etc.  I wonder if that's what this is?  If so, someone
> who was into schematic fiche prep, etc. might know about this.

Ralph Gorin used to have a copy of the ADVENT map on the wall outside his
office at Stanford.  He would never tell me where he came by it.

(Somewhere in my files, I have an N^{th}--generation xerographic copy of this
map, with the rooms reduced to about 0.75in (1.9cm).  Had to fill in the teeny
tiny room names as I came to them. ;-)

I believe that files with the .DRW extension are SUDS output.  (SUDS is the
Stanford University Drawing System, which went to DEC in company with Dick
Helliwell when the Super-Foonly project left SAIL to become the KL10.)  I don't
know the internals of the file format.
--
Rich Alderson						   alderson@netcom.com
		     until 30 Sept 2000, when shell accounts go away from here.
					       I'll post from Panix after that.
  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless


Article 1244 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: ADVENT.DRW?  DRW format?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:17:19 -0400
Organization: as little as possible!
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <39C8101F.5AE5C240@prescienttech.com>
References: <qhya1ffwxq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <39C35A31.B5A6B454@MA.UltraNet.Com> <ALDERSON.00Sep19121444@netcom2.netcom.com>
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"Richard M. Alderson III" wrote:
>
> (Somewhere in my files, I have an N^{th}--generation xerographic copy
> of this [ADVENT.DRW] map, with the rooms reduced to about 0.75in
> (1.9cm).  Had to fill in the teeny tiny room names as I came to
> them. ;-)

   FWIW, we at the RCS/RI have a virtually pristine, full-sized copy
of that map both on paper and Mylar media.  I also have it as a .TIFF
graphic, but, as I'm unaware of any possible copyright problems, I'm
somewhat reluctant to "let it out".

   If anybody in a position of responsibility regarding the artifact
can give written permission to distribute the map, I'd be happy to put
it up on the WWW.  (OK, colour me paranoid.)

   Cheers.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 1262 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TAKE ME, I'M YOURS - The autobiography of SAIL
Date: 20 Sep 2000 17:06:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) writes:
>			  TAKE ME, I'M YOURS
>		       The autobiography of SAIL
> [...]
>P.S. This message is being sent to 875 addresses, but I'm going to try to
>get it out even if it kills me.

And it didn't even say who wrote the mail program it used for all that
mailing!  There's gratitude for you.  :-(


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From: Pat Barron <pat@transarc.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Timothy Stark's effort
Date: 27 Sep 2000 19:59:49 GMT
Organization: Transarc Corporation
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <PAT.00Sep27155949@smithfield.transarc.ibm.com>
References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net>
	<8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net>
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In article <ALDERSON.00Sep27111010@netcom2.netcom.com> alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>   > Is this familiar to anyone?  Anyone know where this would have come from?
>   > Maybe from CMU?
>
>   Wharton is associated with CMU, isn't it?  At least, I always thought it was--
>   sorry if that's insulting, no offense intended.

Nope - it was about 300 miles to the east, at the University of Pennsylvania.
WHARTON-10 was the only machine we had on the ARPANET for a very long
time (eventually the CS department got a VAX-11/785 hooked up to the UDEL
IMP as well, and used it as a router to connect the rest of the department
to the Internet - prior to that, our machines were stuck with e-mail access
only via CSNET PhoneNet, but that's a different story....).  Wharton had
not only the only ARPANET access on campus, but as far as I know, the
only ARPANET access in the eastern part of Pennsylvania (and like I
said, we didn't even have our own IMP....).

What wasn't well known at the time was that any Joe Random off the
streets of Philadelphia could come in and *buy* time on WHARTON-10,
even though they made you promise that you wouldn't do anything on
the ARPANET, which was intended for research use only.  Of course,
there was no mechanized way of enforcing that....  That's how I
got an account on the machine - I was a UPenn student, but really
had nothing to do with Wharton.  It was expensive, though - I
bought an initial allocation of time of about $50, and ran through
it in about three days, just goofing around on the net....

--Pat.


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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Timothy Stark's effort
References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net>
     <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <PAT.00Sep27120352@smithfield.transarc.ibm.com>
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Pat Barron <pat@transarc.ibm.com> writes:

>Back in the 1984-1985 timeframe, I had an account on WHARTON-10.ARPA,
>which was a KL10 running TOPS-10.  I don't remember what version
>we had - I think it was 6.??, perhaps.

>The machine was on the ARPANET, hooked up as a VDH host to the UDEL
>IMP.  I know that TOPS-10 of that vintage included no ARPANET stuff,
>and we used a program called "IMPCOM" to telnet to other sites (plus
>there was a "FINGER" program that had network capability too).  I'm
>guessing that this had to be TCP/IP - wasn't 1985 a bit late for NCP?

IMPCOM was the name of the TOPS-10 ARPAnet program that set up a
telnet link.  After I left CMU in 1974 Harvard gave me an account on
HARV-10, but I didn't get up there too often.  I did spend a couple
nights with Ed Taft (who left Harvard for PARC before I left CMU for DEC)
helping Rutgers get TOPS-10 on the net.  Don't know anything about
Wharton, forgotten most of what I miniscule amount I knew about TCP/IP
on TOPS-10.

1985 is pretty late. 4.2BSD was out with good TCP/IP support.  At that
point I was using using it at Alliant Supercomputer.  While we had USENET,
we wouldn't be on the Internet for another five years or so.

	-Ric Werme

--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 1373 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Timothy Stark's effort
Date: 28 Sep 2000 12:41:21 -1000
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>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes:

 /BAH> The word was that access to the IMP was restricted
 /BAH> so, if somebody wanted to screw around, they would have had
 /BAH> to come in early.  That's when I was doing real work so I
 /BAH> never did fool with the IMP.  I also tended to follow rules..
 /BAH> <ahem>...

Hmm, I wonder if that makes you a better or worse den mother?  :-)

Nothead


Article 1360 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
> Well, it's not clear that he was using TOPS-10's ^T either.
> From Tim's one line description, I gathered that he sorta
> expanded the definition of our ^T and had his debugger do
> a log of stuff.  I got the impression that he's got
> something similar to an address break on command interrupt.
> >
> >IIRC, it's job status, right?
> 
> Sortof.  Implementing the command was a bitch.  TOPS10 didn't
> do terminal interactive I/O easily, as irma demonstrated very
> early on.

Tell me about it. I hacked TOPS-10 6.03 so that I (and the other
consultants) could monitor a specific TTY, character for character.
Believe me, it taught me a lot that I still use when dealing with
streams of data that I can't rely on being in the same spot when
I go back to look at it again.

Plus, on top of that, I didn't want to add ANY latency to the TTY's
normal operation so that the user would ever know he/she was being
watched.

A small ring-buffer and the fact that any terminal I monitored was
1200 baud or slower, and I was on a 9600 baud VT fixed that.

We had a lot of hackers, me being one of the worst. It was a system
(originally KA10) with a PDP-8(DCA) front end that allowed over 100 students
online at once. I was a high-school student at the time. JACCT
priv'd programs (programs in [1,4} and named LOGIN, LOGOUT, INITIA, DAEMON,
MIC, and others) are FUN to play with especially at <333> or lower :)
I used to find a file in [1,4} that was <333> or lower, do an ENTER
on it to lower the protection to <000> and then do another ENTER to
rename it to "LOGIN.SAV". Since there was already a LOGIN.EXE, it would
be run first no matter what. Unless you did "R sys:login.sav", in
which case, whatever you had written into that file (like PIP!) 
was run as JACCT and had complete run of the entire system.

This was later changed into five KS10's with a DCA front-end and a
UNIBUS adapter in each KS10. Never quite the same. I was offered
a job when I quit high-school, and went to work on the KS10's ...
a LOT of fun!

For a while, (in high school) over the summer, they were switching the 
terminals back and forth. Without even looking at the output, or
being logged in, I could tell which system was which by hitting
^T. IIRC, it said "?Not a job", but the latency on the KA10/PDP-8
was SO much lower than the DCA/KS10 that I could tell which system
the terminal was connected to just by hitting ^T and waiting for
the carriage to move in the LA120. If it instantly responded, it
was the KA10, if there was a 100ms delay, it was the KS10.

There was something about the way in which the UNIBUS adapter in
the KS10 dealt with interrupts that kept it from generating the
interrupt right away. It waited for a certain amount of time (from
experience about 100ms), before flushing the buffer and spitting
all the characters into the monitor.

Of course, a PDP-8 front end on a KA10 is a quite different animal
and seemed to be able to deal with interrupts instantly over 100
RS-232 ports. Although, most of the ports were 300baud or less.

Anyway... I'm rambling...

-- 
Arthur Krewat
VP of Engineering, Bartek, Inc.
krewat@kilonet.net


Article 1363 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KL20
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 07:44:16 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <8qv7ti$es9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <858zscg9tm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
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In article <858zscg9tm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>,
   lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
>Both "Computer Engineering" and the DEC timeline refers to the KL20
>processor:
>
>http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/0000051
1.htm
>http://www.dec.com/timeline/1976-1.htm
>
>Is it simply a KL10 processor in a DECSYSTEM-20?

Right.  The naming of anything to do with TOPS20 took a lot
of people a lot of time, mainly because they kept changing
their minds every few months.  I guess it was some form
of job security.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <858zscg9tm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>,
>    lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
> >Both "Computer Engineering" and the DEC timeline refers to the KL20
> >processor:
> >
> >http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/0000051
> 1.htm
> >http://www.dec.com/timeline/1976-1.htm
> >
> >Is it simply a KL10 processor in a DECSYSTEM-20?
> 
> Right.  The naming of anything to do with TOPS20 took a lot
> of people a lot of time, mainly because they kept changing
> their minds every few months.  I guess it was some form
> of job security.
It was really a no brainer when it came time to do the Hephastus
cpu - KC10.  KO would not let us call it KO.  We actually
did meet with him and discuss it.
bob

> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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lars brinkhoff wrote:
> 
> hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> writes:
> > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> > >    lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
> > > >Both "Computer Engineering" and the DEC timeline refers to the KL20
> > > >processor:
> > > >Is it simply a KL10 processor in a DECSYSTEM-20?
> > > Right.  The naming of anything to do with TOPS20 took a lot
> > > of people a lot of time, mainly because they kept changing
> > > their minds every few months.  I guess it was some form
> > > of job security.
> > It was really a no brainer when it came time to do the Hephastus
> > cpu - KC10.  KO would not let us call it KO.  We actually
> > did meet with him and discuss it.
> 
> So why was it called KC10?
KC10 was K, meaning CPU, C meaning 100K ECL, and 10 meaning a PDP-10 
instruction set processor.  We figured KO, cause Ken was the sponsor,
and we figured we could sell that. Ken being the really and truly
humble person he is, absolutely said no. I did not always agree with
his decisions, but he does have a good sense of right and wrong.
bob


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Joe Smith wrote:
> 
> In article <8pdftp$jq1$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
> >Here's a question.  Was the Jupiter 36-bits?  I never saw one
> >so I really don't know.
> 
> I never saw one either, but I heard a rumor that the schematic for the
> VAX 8600 CPU looked suspiciously like the schematic for the Jupiter with
> 4 bits disabled in the ALU.
Sorry for the delay in following up on this,
This comment makes sense to me - Bob Elkind had been moved from LCG
engineering to Vax Engineering to work for the vax crew on the
other end of Marlboro - 2080 was right by the helo pad overlooking 495,
the vax guys were on the same floor and were closer to the road that
crossed
495, can't recall the street names, too many years.
 
> 

> The schematics for the KS-2020 shows that it has a 40-bit ALU.
> Each half-word comprised five 4-bit bit-slice units.
> This had advantages; the extra high-order bits on the LH made it easier
> to correctly set CARRY0 and CARRY1 on an integer overflow condition and
> the extra low-order bits in the RH were useful when rounding floating point
> numbers.
Hmm that rings a bell too, wasn't that really driven by the amount 
of realestate we had for the boards - 2020 was hex, if irc, while the
vaxen pushed the L series big mutha boards.  That harkins back to Ed 
DeCastro arguing back before DG that the boards could be bigger!
bob

>         -Joe
> --
> See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.


Article 1426 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: A bug in MTBOOT.RDI (TOPS-20 v4.1)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 07:19:18 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 61
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In article <sWlC5.2724$UP5.31794@news6.giganews.com>,
   Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>Mark Crispin <mrc@cac.washington.edu> wrote:
>> Yup.  It's a known bug.  At J3+6, there is a
>> 	WRCSTM [77B5]
>> that should be
>> 	MOVX T1,77B5
>> 	WRCSTM T1
>> or possibly
>> 	WRCSTM [77B5]-ENT(16)
>
>> I'm not sure why/how this worked on a real KS.
>
>> There is another bug.  At CHKCHN (under IFN SMFLG), there is a
>> 	CAIG P,MAXCHN1
>> that should be
>> 	CAIG P,1
>
>Mark:
<snip bug description>

> ... Yes, that is another programming error.
>MTBOOT.RDI indeed is buggy. :-(  I can't believe that it works fine on a
>real KS10...

You have to remember that the KS10 was designed for ADP to run
TOPS10.  It is quite possible that an installation from scratch
was never done for the V4.0 release.  The KS that we had was
rarely used by the -20 monitor group so any work done on the
KS part of TOPS-20 probably started with a disk pack that 
was ready to run rather than a blank one.  Somehow a niggle
in my head is saying that a new KS system that was shipped
to a customer came with a disk that was ready made for 
running.  If that was the case, then the manufacturing guys
were the ones who built it.  And I can tell you from experience
that those guys were not methodical _at all_.  My last triumph
was getting the contents of the KLAD pack out of their hands.

>
>TOPS-20 v4.1 for my emulator is not supported at this time. I believe
>that TOPS-20 distribution without source code is much difficult to debug
>than TOPS-10 with source code.  That's why I can't fix them. :-( I gave
>up.  If its source code is released into Tim Shoppa's archives or so, I
>will resume.

One of the side effects of not shipping sources is that the
source tape will not match the general distribution tape.
That was true with the -20 ships until management finally
figured out that an engineer should be designing the build
and packaging procedures.  That was another accomplishment
of mine.  There was a gap after Alan Frantz left that 
non-engineer types did all the decision making for the
packaging on both the -10 and -20.

/BAH

<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: A bug in MTBOOT.RDI (TOPS-20 v4.1)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 06:41:43 GMT
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In article 
<Pine.NXT.4.30.0010041349310.20416-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> You have to remember that the KS10 was designed for ADP to run
>> TOPS10.  It is quite possible that an installation from scratch
>> was never done for the V4.0 release.
>
>I can assure you that boot from tape using MTBOOT and install from scratch
>works on a real KS10.

He's using version 4.  That _particular_ tape might not have
been as rigorously tested as the later releases.  We didn't start
testing our cold start procedures until I got on the scene...and
I think that was some flavor of 6.03.  Laurie Piper and I played
the Token Dummy because she was rewriting the installlation guide.
After that, Token Dummy-ism became a standard testing procedure
for the -10.  The -20 soon followed :-).

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: A bug in MTBOOT.RDI (TOPS-20 v4.1)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:35:07 -0700
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >I can assure you that boot from tape using MTBOOT and install from scratch
> >works on a real KS10.
> He's using version 4.  That _particular_ tape might not have
> been as rigorously tested as the later releases.

Once again, let me reiterate:

Boot from tape using MTBOOT and install from scratch works on a real KS10.

I have personally done it in every release of TOPS-20 that came out for
the KS10, and for a few which didn't.  We're talking about unmodified
MTBOOT.

The TOPS-20 release distributions were never lackadasical and slipshod the
way some TOPS-10 releases were.

TOPS-20 sources actually built the same binaries; although the first thing
that a customer who had sources did was to merge their changes from the
previous release.  It took me about 12-18 hours of hard editing.

> We didn't start
> testing our cold start procedures until I got on the scene...and
> I think that was some flavor of 6.03.

TOPS-20 release 4 came out something like 5 years after TOPS-10 6.03,
although its beta test started in 1979.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.





Article 1444 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Message-ID: <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>
From: "justme.bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL  (WinNT; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort)
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <B6013FBA.24DF%dgc@spies.com>,
>    David G Conroy <dgc@spies.com> wrote:
> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM:
> >
> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who
> >> knew how to build a PDP-10.
> 
> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can.
> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too.
> >
> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are?  (the first and last
> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?)
Ok, I will byte:
Alpha - Al Kent.
Omega - Steve Pomfret.
bad bad bob



> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1445 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-252
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort)
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 08:13:27 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>,
   "justme.bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <B6013FBA.24DF%dgc@spies.com>,
>>    David G Conroy <dgc@spies.com> wrote:
>> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM:
>> >
>> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who
>> >> knew how to build a PDP-10.
>> 
>> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can.
>> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too.
>> >
>> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are?  (the first and last
>> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?)
>Ok, I will byte:
>Alpha - Al Kent.
>Omega - Steve Pomfret.

Nope.  Although Kent was around in the alpha.

Try Kotok and Uhler.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1450 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Message-ID: <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net>
From: hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net>
Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net
Organization: The Keltic League
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL  (WinNT; U)
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Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort)
References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <Pine.NXT.4.30.0009281139160.12384-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <B5FCD42F.23F3%dgc@spies.com> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <B6013FBA.24DF%dgc@spies.com> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>,
>    "justme.bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <B6013FBA.24DF%dgc@spies.com>,
> >>    David G Conroy <dgc@spies.com> wrote:
> >> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at
> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM:
> >> >
> >> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who
> >> >> knew how to build a PDP-10.
> >>
> >> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can.
> >> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too.
> >> >
> >> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are?  (the first and last
> >> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?)
> >Ok, I will byte:
> >Alpha - Al Kent.
> >Omega - Steve Pomfret.
> 
> Nope.  Although Kent was around in the alpha.
> 
> Try Kotok and Uhler.
I was thinking about this on the way in this morning.
I said to myself, "Self, why did ya Kent instead of Kotok?"
and then I said to myself, "Yep, sure should get Barb to come back
with something snappy."
Well, of course you are correct, I knew kent better than Kotok is the
real
reason, I could fish Kent into arguing with me, Kotok just called me
a minicomputer guy.  I liked both of them, just as long as I could
find some way to drive Rick Merrill crazy I was happy.
bob

> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1472 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort)
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 08:59:19 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 47
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In article <0zID5.35299$pu4.3837003@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
   "Dawn R. Banks" <dawn@drbanks.com> wrote:
>Aw, shucks, Barb.

<grin>  But you love me anyway.  Right?

>
>I was late to the game for a lame release, and probably 
>didn't contribute as
>much as a real hacker would have liked to.

I consider you, along with Carl and Bill, the last generation
of the monitor group.  And that last release was no lame
release.  I view it as one of the most important releases
that allowed customers to continue to run their -10s into the
ground.  If we had remained at DECnet Phase III, those -10s 
would have been shut off much earlier.

>
>I loved the PDP-10 and TOPS-10 to an extent that I 
>now feel almost qualified
>to label "unhealthy."  For the life of me, I never did 
>find any activity as
>fun as writing -10 code (Macro-10, please, with the damn tabs).

I remember listening to you write code.  I was always awed by
anybody who write code on-line.  I never was able to work without
paper.

>
>But, it's been dead for years, and maybe it's time to move on.

The -20 isn't dead.  PDP-10s are still being sold.  There's just
hasn't been anybody to do the TOPS-10 work necessary to run
on the new hardware (at least, that's the news two years ago).

>
>The more astute among you would ask what I'm doing 
>cruising this news group
>if I've moved on, but then again, complete freedom 
>from hypocrisy was never something I laid claim to.

The more astute of us understand.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1543 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Floating-point test cases ?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 00 09:09:28 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <8serqf$b3k$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <39E88FE9.34C29B86@home.net>, cks <smithck@home.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Mary did an awful lot of work to make sure we knew how to
>> add :-).
>
>That she did.  The basic trick is to end with A+(B+C)
>where A is exact and B+C is much smaller.  Usually A
>and C come from a table and B is the computed approximation.
>B+C should be added with FAD, and A should be added in
>with FADR.  I think Mary may be why IEEE, and Alpha, 
>can do this -- she was irritated that Vax could not.

Her irritation was always a pleasure to watch.

>
>The Vax math lib is the real Mary Payne one.  The -10
>one was written by IMSL, under the guidance of their
>consultant W. Cody.  The book Cody & Waite was the
>result of the 10 math lib rewrite.  Well, a corollary,
>I don't know which was primary, but they got a book
>out of it.

I thought you worked with her to the PDP-10 stuff right.
Or didn't that work ever get shipped.

>
>Cody's work was not always up to Mary's standard --

She was a class act.

>not many people's was -- and there were some ideas
>of hers that they wouldn't adopt.  My favorite is
>the Vax lib's pi table -- it stores 1/pi to a monstrous
>number of bits, so if you want the sine of 1.234q+1234
>it can subtract off exactly some enormous multiple of pi
>and tell you.
>
>> What's a pow?
>
>power function, y**x.  Very hard to get both correct and fast.
>
>> Are you my Chris Smith?
>
>Yep -- hi Barb --

Neat!  Hi Chris.

> .. normally I post as Myself but not to
>alt groups, my normal news setup doesn't.  Hence this
>foolish what-you-see-is-not-what-you-think newsreader
>etc.

I've been running into some posts generated by newsreaders
written by some really wierd thinking.  I used to be 
good at figuring out what those programmers were trying to
do....not any more :-(.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1599 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap
From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: RAD50 (was: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?)
Date: 22 Oct 2000 09:17:31 GMT
Organization: Chez Inwap
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <8subbb$2s6d$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <rpNl5.131549$lU5.898906@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com> <39984D05.AB446489@elepar.com> <967014068snz@dsl.co.uk> <39F2128A.3D339429@block.spam.direct.ca>
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In article <39F2128A.3D339429@block.spam.direct.ca>,
Dave Stevens  <lockspur@block.spam.direct.ca> wrote:
>RAD50 was probably agreed upon at the same time as the DEC file naming
>format came into being.

You're forgetting your history.  The PDP-10 came out before the PDP-11.
The PDP-10 used RAD50 in the MACRO assembler symbol table.
Six RAD50 characters fit into 32 bits, leaving 4 bits to specify
what sort of symbol it was: opcode, macro, nonrelocatable value,
relocatable value, external value, etc.

>It's probably a chicken and egg situation (symbols vs file names)...

No, it wasn't.
	-Joe
--
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.


Article 1645 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: R.J.S. <not@available.right.now>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: DZ-11 functional specs needed
Organization: Very Organized
Message-ID: <u84cvssv09aicq3re1eiihgnplvtqdbnde@4ax.com>
References: <t%nJ5.86853$bI6.3143075@news1.giganews.com>
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:25:29 GMT, Timothy Stark
<sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:

>Hello folks:
>
>I am looking for DZ-11 functional specs but I can't find any.  I looked
>into ITS's hack documents but they are meaningless to me.  That's why
>I need complete docuemtation with DZ-11 device programming.
>
>Thank you!
>
>-- Tim Stark

Tim, I don't think you need that much.  Probably, a quick look at the
DZ driver for ANF is all you need.  It is a very small file. The DZ is
a simple, byte at a time device for both input and output, and it only
does 8 lines.  IIRC, it is a really stupid board.

p.s.  I wrote the ANF DZ driver, that's how I know how stupid the
device really is.



Article 1666 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: "cdo" <cdo@qwsi.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 (KS10) Emulator status.
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:53:37 -0400
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: <sveso9ovqrv6a1@corp.supernews.com>
References: <Q96J5.37434$YX4.1183868@news2.giganews.com> <8t2u3b$o78$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <hNnJ5.86846$bI6.3143187@news1.giganews.com> <8t54m8$cca$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8t6r5p$cgo$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
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<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:8t6r5p$cgo$4@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <8t54m8$cca$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>,
>    bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
> >Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:
> >>? Stopcode - ILM - Illegal memory reference at PC in .JBTPC
> >>  Program QUASAR 5(1512) + GLXLIB 5(1601) error at PC 652064 in module
> GLXINT
> >>  Last GLXLIB error at PC 000000 was 21; No such pid
> >>  Crash block begins at 674000
> >>  [Stopping program]
> >
> >That .JBTPC reference is interesting -
>
> It's real interesting because it means that the job's
> current PC is illegal.  The monitor did a no-no or the
> program is trying to change itself out from underneath
> the monitor.
>
>
> Thats in the job data area 20-140.
> >
> >"Funny space" is another thing that might trip up the pager handling in
>
> <snip>
>
> >Hopefully this gives you an idea or two to check on, or gets someone
elses
> >cobwebs shook loose enough to remember something important :-)
>
> Heh, I forgot all about funny space.  Haven't heard that term in
> years.  I think JMF did that one, too.  He certainly was obsessed
> by it for quite a while.
>
> /BAH
>
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

Jim created the "per process monitor free core" concept so we could stick
TW's DDBs up in there.  I think I coined the name "funny space" (or at least
I remember doing it, the gray cells aren't what they used to be).  I did
write the "get funny words" and friends memory management routines.  What a
pain they were.

/cdo




Article 1676 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 (KS10) Emulator status.
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 07:08:10 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <8t90hv$bj8$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <sveso9ovqrv6a1@corp.supernews.com>, "cdo" <cdo@qwsi.net> wrote:
>
><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:8t6r5p$cgo$4@bob.news.rcn.net...
>> In article <8t54m8$cca$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>,
>>    bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
>> >Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:
>> >>? Stopcode - ILM - Illegal memory reference at PC in .JBTPC
>> >>  Program QUASAR 5(1512) + GLXLIB 5(1601) error at PC 652064 in module
>> GLXINT
>> >>  Last GLXLIB error at PC 000000 was 21; No such pid
>> >>  Crash block begins at 674000
>> >>  [Stopping program]
>> >
>> >That .JBTPC reference is interesting -
>>
>> It's real interesting because it means that the job's
>> current PC is illegal.  The monitor did a no-no or the
>> program is trying to change itself out from underneath
>> the monitor.
>>
>>
>> Thats in the job data area 20-140.
>> >
>> >"Funny space" is another thing that might trip up the pager handling in
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >Hopefully this gives you an idea or two to check on, or gets someone
>elses
>> >cobwebs shook loose enough to remember something important :-)
>>
>> Heh, I forgot all about funny space.  Haven't heard that term in
>> years.  I think JMF did that one, too.  He certainly was obsessed
>> by it for quite a while.

>Jim created the "per process monitor free core" concept so we could stick
>TW's DDBs up in there.  I think I coined the name "funny space" 
>(or at least
>I remember doing it, the gray cells aren't what they used to be).  

<grin>  Those ideas just sorta seemed to happen back then, didn't 
they?  I remember you guys talking about it a lot.


>I did
>write the "get funny words" and friends memory management 
>routines.  What a pain they were.

We could follow the trail of little gray hairs when you guys
were trying to get it all right.  Did all of this happen
around the time of BCTel and Poor Sally?  

Somebody's been talking about transaction processing systems.
I started to post about the architectural spec that you
and JMF wrote but decided not to because I couldn't remember
anything about it except sitting at the bar trying to get
you guys to set up the damn system so that Poor Sally could
get her work done.
>
>/cdo

'ey, Chuck ;-)

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1774 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for CUSP tape files for v6.03
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 10:20:13 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <8th5ea$95b$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8hoH5.62649$bI6.2262607@news1.giganews.com> <8smntu$3f1$11@bob.news.rcn.net> <39FB0DD6.7C179D1B@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8tgtog$l6u$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39FC0272.873FECC5@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <39FC0272.873FECC5@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <39FB0DD6.7C179D1B@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >>...  I put all the
>> >> KA/KI specific code on the Customer Supported Tape.  And I
>> >> mean I put everything that we took off all the supported
>> >> tapes onto that tape.
>> >
>> >I suspect that support for the 6/KA relocation/protection registers
>> >was thrown away ages before that when KA support was dropped.  Maybe it
>> >lives someplace else in the 7.* sources.  However,
>> >
>> 
>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/CUST_SUP_CUSP_BB-X130C-SB/KASER.MAC
>> >
>> >is code to simulate KA instructions on a KL, not code to exercise
>> >KA-specific features...
>> 
>> Wrong.  KASER.MAC _is_ the module that was used to build a
>> KA monitor.  ...
>
>"
>TITLE   KASER - KL10 MODULE TO SUPPORT KA10 LONG FLOATING POINT SIMULATION 
- V016
>SUBTTL  J.M. FLEMMING/JMF  TS   10 SEP 85
>"
I don't remember that project.  I'll think about it.
Somewhere on that tape there has to be the read KASER module.



>>...  What Tim would have to do is rebuild the monitor
>> with the unsupported feature test switch for KAs turned on.
>
>All the KA code was ripped out before 7.04 (for 7.00, apparently).

Sigh!  It wasn't ripped out.  The KA was one of the feature
test switches that we decided to unsupport along with a slew
of other stuff we had to support because of backwards 
compatibility restraints.  The thinking was to try and get
some control over really decommissioning old stuff because
there were a lot of things JMF and TW wanted to do but 
couldn't if we had to accommodate all the old gear and
software options.  

Feature test switches and accompanying code had become
a maze of twisty little passages.

>
>I wonder if there are 6.* sources sitting around someplace...

I don't remember the monitor version number that stopped
supporting KAs.  Just as a point of reference, we were still
building KA monitors when I was doing the USAGE accounting
project because I did my development on system #2 back in
a dark corner of MRO-1-2.  JMF and TW were doing SMP 
around the same time.  So we were building a 7.01 flavor
of monitor that ran on the KA.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1793 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for CUSP tape files for v6.03
Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:55:33 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>I don't remember the monitor version number that stopped
>supporting KAs.
>.
>........................So we were building a 7.01 flavor
>of monitor that ran on the KA.

The 7.01 monitor was the first one that "didn't support" ka-10's when
it was released.  I'm sure it could still be made to work by those
who really wanted to do it.

The KL10 service enhancement project had run into a lack of additional
space for microcode, and so some little used KA-10 instructions (UFA, DFN,
FADL, FSBL, FMPL, and FDVL) were taken out of the KL microcode to make
room for other things.  7.01 included a way to emulate these instructions
and that code was in KASER.MAC for 7.01.  Timothy might need to look at
the 6.03a KASER.MAC for actual KA-10 handling.

Was there a 7.00 monitor that was used internally but not released?  I
seem to remember TWINKY running something like that.  Maybe 7.00 worked on
the KA-10 more easily than 7.01.

7.01 was the last release that "supported" KI-10 smp, 7.01a was the last
release that "supported" the KL10 model A cpu.  I spent several months trying
to make 7.02 work on the model A but never seemed to be able to get past some
cache bugs.  Now I realize those may have been hardware bugs in the model A.
Anyhow in one of the last DECUS meetings where DEC allowed TOPS-10 developers 
to have face-to-face with customers I tried to get Jim Flemming to give me
some clues regarding making 7.02 to run on the A, and he was unusually poker 
faced about it the entire time.....Hmmmmm!  Normally the developers were
quite open and would discuss anything and everything with you.

Oh well at least I could still run 7.01 unlike most of my KA friends.

Later

Mark Hittinger
Earthlink
bugs@netcom.com


Article 1803 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for CUSP tape files for v6.03
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 08:10:34 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <8tji7m$45l$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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 <39FB0DD6.7C179D1B@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8tgtog$l6u$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
 <39FC0272.873FECC5@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8th5ea$95b$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ti6cl$1ae$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>
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In article <8ti6cl$1ae$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
   bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>>I don't remember the monitor version number that stopped
>>supporting KAs.
>>.
>>........................So we were building a 7.01 flavor
>>of monitor that ran on the KA.
>
>The 7.01 monitor was the first one that "didn't support" ka-10's when
>it was released.  I'm sure it could still be made to work by those
>who really wanted to do it.

There was a difference between "support" and "didn't support".  When
we stopped supported stuff we did our damnedest to not break the
old stuff; there were situations where we simply didn't have a choice
or where we could verify that the old stuff didn't get broken.
So, while we didn't officially support the KA with 7.01, we certainly
were building monitors for the KA (it was a part of our weekly
build procedures to make a gazillion monitors just to make sure that
we didn't break that).  And I was essentially verifying that the
KA software would still run by trotting my stand-alone pack with
this week's monitor build down to System #2 and using it for my
stand-alone machine.

>
>The KL10 service enhancement project had run into a lack of additional
>space for microcode, and so some little used KA-10 instructions (UFA, DFN,
>FADL, FSBL, FMPL, and FDVL) were taken out of the KL microcode to make
>room for other things.  7.01 included a way to emulate these instructions
>and that code was in KASER.MAC for 7.01.  Timothy might need to look at
>the 6.03a KASER.MAC for actual KA-10 handling.

Ah, OK.  So that explains that particular module.  I didn't have
complete control of the packaging and builds for distribution at
that time.  Any _monitor_ tape before the 7-series would have
the real KASER on it.  I would be very surprised if the last
KASER didn't get renamed to another filename and put on the
Customer Supported Tape.  But then that tape didn't get very
organized on I did get complete control of the packaging.  I
can't remember what the development cycle was when I wrote my
first packaging spec.  I think I wrote three of them.  So that
would make my first one to coincide with 7.02.


>
>Was there a 7.00 monitor that was used internally but not released? 

Oh, some smarty out in the field sold something that required a
device driver.  Since we didn't have any time, funding, or machine
to test the damn thing on using 6.03A as a base for sources, we
packaged a limited shipment for only those customers who absolutely
had to have that piece of hardware and named it 7.00.  It was a
"Limited" ship.  

Do you people remember the LIRs?

> I
>seem to remember TWINKY running something like that.  Maybe 7.00 worked on
>the KA-10 more easily than 7.01.

Nope.  That wasn't it.  See above.

>
>7.01 was the last release that "supported" KI-10 smp, 7.01a was the last
>release that "supported" the KL10 model A cpu.  I spent 
>several months trying
>to make 7.02 work on the model A but never seemed to be 
>able to get past some
>cache bugs.  Now I realize those may have been hardware 
>bugs in the model A.
>Anyhow in one of the last DECUS meetings where DEC 
>allowed TOPS-10 developers 
>to have face-to-face with customers I tried to get Jim Flemming to give me
>some clues regarding making 7.02 to run on the A, and he 
>was unusually poker 
>faced about it the entire time.....Hmmmmm!  Normally the developers were
>quite open and would discuss anything and everything with you.

They could talk about everything except for the things that were
on The List.  :-)  Could the problem have something to do with 
extended addressing?


>
>Oh well at least I could still run 7.01 unlike most of my KA friends.

yea.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1805 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for CUSP tape files for v6.03
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 09:30:20 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <8tjmt5$car$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8hoH5.62649$bI6.2262607@news1.giganews.com> <8smntu$3f1$11@bob.news.rcn.net>
 <39FB0DD6.7C179D1B@MA.UltraNet.Com> <8tgtog$l6u$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <8tji7m$45l$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>In article <8ti6cl$1ae$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
>   bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
>>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>>>I don't remember the monitor version number that stopped
>>>supporting KAs.
>>>.
>>>........................So we were building a 7.01 flavor
>>>of monitor that ran on the KA.
>>
>>The 7.01 monitor was the first one that "didn't support" ka-10's when
>>it was released.  I'm sure it could still be made to work by those
>>who really wanted to do it.
>
>There was a difference between "support" and "didn't support".  When
>we stopped supported stuff we did our damnedest to not break the
>old stuff; there were situations where we simply didn't have a choice
>or where we could verify that the old stuff didn't get broken.
>So, while we didn't officially support the KA with 7.01, we certainly
>were building monitors for the KA (it was a part of our weekly
>build procedures to make a gazillion monitors just to make sure that
>we didn't break that).  And I was essentially verifying that the
>KA software would still run by trotting my stand-alone pack with
>this week's monitor build down to System #2 and using it for my
>stand-alone machine.

<snip>

Tim,  I forgot to point out that the KA module that you find on
any 6.03x tape will NOT have any of the bug fixes that would
have been included in the renamed KASER.MAC file that would
have shipped on the 7.0n tapes.

We did fix bugs in stuff that we didn't officially support; we
just never promised to fix every reported bug.

This has been a big bone of contention between PDP-10
developers and certain noisy customers and was the main
reason we put all that stuff in the unsupported category.
It was the only way we could figure out how to get code
out into the field without the horrendous overhead that
support dumped on us.  It was a problem we never did figure
out how to manage; our failure to fix this problem was 
used as data to kill the product line.  

So, you see, all of sudden you're immersed in internal
polictics of yore :-).

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1804 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP10 (KS10) Emulator status.
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 08:19:09 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <8tjinm$45l$2@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <Q96J5.37434$YX4.1183868@news2.giganews.com> <8t3v2j$j87$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <6EhJ5.86142$bI6.2817650@news1.giganews.com> <8t6qvc$cgo$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ti2nj$sga$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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In article <8ti2nj$sga$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
   inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
>In article <8t6qvc$cgo$3@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <6EhJ5.86142$bI6.2817650@news1.giganews.com>,
>>   Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>>>Hehe.  Yeah. I agree with you.  I have not implemented DZ-11 devices yet
>>>because I need DZ-11 functional specs.  However, I can implement KLINIK
>>>for second terminal soon.
>>
>>I didn't know that KLINIK could have two terminals.
>>As far as I knew the KLINIK line was to pretend that
>>the especially blessed person dialing in should have
>>all the privs as if he were physically at the console.
>>And I thought the console was limited to one line.
>>The CTY had power, even more than [1,2] jobs.
>><snip two "I know that"s>
>
>Remember, Barb, 

Heh, heh.  It's difficult to remember what I never knew ;-).

>that the KS10 had a REMOTE DIAGNOSIS switch with three
>positions:
>  DISABLE = Ignore RD, CD, RI and all other signals from the KLINIK line.
>  ENABLE  = Allows free acces to the system without password protection.
>	    This is like the KL KLINIK; the lines wired in parallel.
>  PROTECT = Allows access to the system with a password.
>	There was a separate command you had to type on the console
>	to tell the 8080 front end what the password was.  When the FE
>	called up the modem connected to the KLINIK line, he would be
>	asked for the password.  If it matched, the KLINIK line would
>	be connected to the console.  If it did not match the line would
>	be an ordinary terminal line.
>
>I forget now whether the line was CTY+1 or CTY-1, but it did allow
>logging in as a "normal" user (such as [6,6] or [6,10]).

My comment about the "CTY having power" meant that the job 
logged in whose terminal was a CTY had more software privs.
I probably shouldn't have used the word power in the midst
of all these hardware guys :-).  Also our ALWAYS.DDT patch
file may have made the CTY even more priv'ed than what
was shipped to the field.  I can't remember what patches were
in ALWAYS.  Ah, one of them was to allow only me to PIVOT to
[10,2370].


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1802 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: DC20F differences from DH11?
References: <qh4s1w66ev.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy.
Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:22:44 -0800
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I wrote:
> "KL10-Based Technical Manual" (EK-OKL10-TM-002, 2nd edition, July 1984)
> says that the front-end uses a DC20F 16-port async mux, and that the
> DC20F is similar to the DH11.  Is it really DC20F, or is it DC20-F?
> How is it different than a DH11?  I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't
> simply a DH11 with a different cab kit and distribution panel, but I
> don't have any info.

I've since found the DC20 prints.  It does turn out that the DC20-F
is a DH11 with a different cab kit and distribution panel.  The
"modified" part is that there exists an 8-port DC20, whereas the DH11
was only officially available with 16 ports.  The 8-port DC20 is uses
the DH11 minus one of the 8-port async modules.


Article 1842 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: It's not a KT10 (was Re: Another big boost!)
References: <izAL5.108966$bI6.4090514@news1.giganews.com> <8tmtka$7to$1@dbit.dbit.com> <uitq8oq41.fsf@nonews.net> <87pukg27iz.fsf@cartman.azz.net>
X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
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Adam Sampson <ats1@ukc.ac.uk> writes:
> How about a KT10? Then the emulator could be called "Katie".

KT10 is the memory protection/relocation option for a KA10 processor.

Technically the KT10 was an option, but I doubt that many KA10 processors were
shipped without it, or for that matter the KE10 byte instructions, the
KP10 power fail & restart, or the KM10 fast memory (accumulators).




Article 1800 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Quasar - problems on my emulator
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:59:03 -0800
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On 29 Oct 2000, Peter da Silva wrote:
> In article <8tgtvm$l6u$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
> >As long as we're bitching...whose brain fart put the damn alt
> >keys on either side of the space bar.
> Bill Gates was ultimately responsible.

How, pray tell, was Gates responsible for an IBM decision?  Microsoft was
just a tiny company at the time, albeit the one that produced the good
BASIC for 8-bit machines.

If I'm not mis-remembering (it's been over 27 years since I last touched
one), the S/360 console had ALT in that position as well.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Timothy Stark's effort
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:50:31 -0800
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
Lines: 15
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On Sat, 28 Oct 2000, Alan H. Martin wrote:
> Did TOPS-20 prefetch pages when doing PMAPped disk reads to reduce
> latency for sequential input?

Prefetch was an option, controlled by a bit in the PMAP% call.  Prefetch
is often, but not always!!, a good thing.

MM did a prefetch PMAP% when opening the mailbox.  It made MM startup
*much* faster.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



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From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tymshare System 26 and 26KL
Date: 31 Oct 2000 19:52:02 -0500
Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052
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The problem was that it was clearly not in the growth path of anyone at Digital
to know anything about 36-bit computing at that time.  We had several attempts
at signing a contract, where the Digital party simply disappeared from view--
left the company, transferred into a different division where they no longer
had any say in the matter, whatever.

The gents who finally got everything together for us, on both the technical and
the political sides, did a damn fine job, but by then the archives were spotty.

-- 
Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.com
  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless


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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tymshare System 26 and 26KL
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:31:51 -0800
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >It was a mess, all of that wire wrap and bird poo.  Don't
> >ask how the bird doody got there.
> I thought we had plugged up all the pigeon holes in the mill.

It wasn't pigeon, it was parrot.

Alas, Dave Poole was killed last year in a hurricane-force storm in
Glacier Bay, Alaska.  They found some wreckage of his boat, but an
extensive search of all possible beaches where he could have bivouaced
turned up nothing.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 1885 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 13:18:10 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 66
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In article <tE6L5.1447$ml4.123503@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
   "Toots Mutant" <toots@drbanks.nospamDOTcom> wrote:
>I remember working in the CSC on a hideous XON/XOFF problem on TOPS-20. We
>had a customer who was trying to use LA-120s as line printers. It often
>didn't work due to dropped XONs - that is, the LA-120 would get a buffer
>low, send the XON to the -20, and the -20 wouldn't acknowledge it. Typing
>Control-Q on the LA-120 keyboard didn't do a hell of a lot of good because
>the LA-120 didn't see any point in sending an XON (as 
>initiated by keyboard
>input) when it knew that it'd already done that. You get the picture.

<snip -20F tale of woe>

>A few months later, while working in the -10 group, 
>orange folk were fond of wandering over to the blue 
>bullpen to discuss RSX-20F and other issues such
>as these with me. 

That's because we never seemed to be able to keep a 
bonofide 20F expert. :-)  A 20F budget was not under
under the control of CC341 (I think I can say those 
words now :-)).  Thus we did not have source control
nor did we have source _access_.



>I soon discovered that much of the stupidity I'd been
>fighting was contained in a single individual

Yea, that problem was caused by ownerless software.

> ... (and not a 
>prominent enough name for most to remember), although the 
>-20 group as a whole still seemed a bit challenged on the topic.
>
>Lest it sound like I'm singling out the orange folk, I 
>will say that while I was in the -10 group, I found many 
>of them to also be prone to powering off
>their grey matter whenever the CFE was involved.

Yup.  We sure did. :-)  If it's not a PDP-10, it must be
comm which was a whole different chain of frustrating command.
A lot of our NIH syndrome was caused by "can't get here from
there" problems caused by managers and/or budgets not getting
along.

<snip>

>In any case, this made me a sort of defacto RSX-20F person, 
>as I had most of
>the terminal service in the stupid thing hardwired into my cranium by the
>time I got to Digital. While in the CSC, 20F related calls naturally fell
>into my work queue. While in Marlboro, I thankfully wasn't responsible for
>that thing, 

We made sure of that....

> ...but I did serve as one of the few people who could tell the
>difference between a 20F bug and a back-end bug.

 ...so we could keep your knowledge around :-).  It was similar
to Flemming not knowing anything about SCAN/WILD.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for CUSP tape files for v6.03
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 10:37:57 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <8ts8ru$196u$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
   inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
>In article <8t97qk$erl$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>>As I understand it, the software changes needed to get TOPS-10 running
>>>on the prototype of the "follow-on 36-bit processor" (KC10, aka Jupiter)
>>>were never completed, so there never was a 7.05 Monitor.
>>
>>Joe, you've got the naming conventions all wrong.  If the KC had
>>been shipped, the version of the monitor supporting that piece
>>of hardware might have been 7.03 since we were working on the
>>7.02 ship when the project got killed.  It would have never
>>been 7.05 since that version would have been shipped after
>>7.04.  The date for 7.04 was 1987...or was it 1986...four
>>years after the Jupiter.
>
>Thanks for the clarification. 

You're welcome :-).

> I should have remembered the dates.

Dates are useful.  Monotonically increasing version and
minor version numbers according to a strict standard are
even more so.  From them one can tell if the software was 
an architectural, development, or maintenence ship (there 
was a difference in our neck of the world) and the order of 
a product's evolution.  And one could also tell if DEC did 
the ship or a customer (assuming the customer used the set 
of bits specifically reserved for him).

/BAH


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Looking for CUSP tape files for v6.03
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 13:24:28 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 41
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In article <8tugug$pf6$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>,
   bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>>The bottom line is that the KASER.MAC on the 6.03A monitor 
>>tape is going to be the one you'll have use.  And that means
>>that any bugs that were fixed after the 6.03A ship are lost.
>
>Not necessarily, there are probably still copies of the MCO/CMCO documents
>laying around which would have hard copies of patches.  I'd also look at
>any autopatch tapes for patches to 6.03a kaser.mac.

We didn't do autopatch then.  If I had my way, we would have
never done autopatch, as it was written.

And I don't think our MCO file was saved.  Note that not all
changes to the monitor was published in the Update.  Only
the patches that were in response to an SPR and panic fixes
were published.  Also, the MCO only gave the patch iff the
writer of the MCO wrote it on the paper.  Most people didn't
since the FILCOM was a much better way to document the patch.
Those FILCOMs are gone, too, since they were in our listing
box.  I didn't any evidence of listings in the room that had
the last KL in it in Marlboro.  I have no idea if we kept
the FILCOMs of the maintenance listings after we got our
act together.  


>
>Actually kaser.mac would probably have been substantially burned in by
>that time anyway :-)
>
>>I am not happy with myself.
>
>Hah! Great to have you here.

Well, it might be great to have me here.  But I don't tolerate
mistakes that I make....at all.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 security model
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 14:19:21 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 48
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In article <8tuito$fj3$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
   bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>>Oh, yeah.  It might help understand if I say that a sharable
>>high seg was only code...no data.
>
>No it could be data also.  PDP-10's had self modifying code (which is 
>considered a sin these days).

It was considered a sin back then, too if you had JMF for your
guru.  However, the PDP-10 allowed you to eat that forbidden
fruit but it had no mercy when you got a stomach ache.

>
>I don't want to get Harris excited but the DECWAR game (the most fun game
>in the world) used a shareable/writeable high seg data area to implement 
>it's multi-user aspect.   DECWAR!(#&&!^$%@^%^%@!
>
>login.mac would build a lookup table for acct.sys and store that in its
>high seg.  This allowed login to improve the speed of account lookups 
>because it could use the table to get the acct.sys disk block that had
>your account in it rather than sequentially reading the entire acct.sys
>file.

But it didn't allow writes to it.  And all of that got deleted when
access validation became a function of the ACTDAE.  Having LOGIN
do that work was a damn big security hole that we always wanted
to cement up.  There was reason that LOGIN ran JACCTed.


>There may have been something in initia that also left information to be
>used by other initia's in its high seg.



>TOPS-10 had many wonderful features that are now considered too dangerous,
>or is it that the people who would exploit them now are just more 
>dangerous?

I don't think they're dangerous.  It was a feature of the OS
to allow the user to screw himself every which way he tried.
<snip stuff I'm too pooped to write about>

Remember, having privs came with responsibilities.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 security model
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 00 10:01:15 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <8ue07u$gsb$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <3A09E240.AB4614C5@bartek.net>,
   Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
>John Wilson wrote:
>> 
>> >Geez, lighten up, it was only a little "barb" at Barb.
>> 
>> OK OK!  It's a religious topic, I just tend to get excited.
>> 
>
>Amen to that. I like 80 columns. Any programming language
>that had long enough mnemonics to allow me to create a
>line longer than 80 columns was sinfull.

You know, I never thought of that.  As somebody who had
to produce her own drum cards after <ahem> discussing 
the format of the data she was about to key in, I had
to do some weird things to smush all that data into
80 columns.  But it never occurred to me that a benefit
of 80 columns was to force programmers to put their effort
into coding rather than naming teensy pieces of data.

> Of course, that
>was with 8 1/2" wide paper. When I got my hands on some
>14" paper, that dissolved into 132 columns on an LA120.

But you still had to have some restraint if you wanted 
readable CREFs.

>
>Video terminal? what was that?

I never got used to them until I started using RDH's VTECO
and that was later on in life.

>
>I always tried to promote "paper awareness" in my high school's
>computer room. of course, I would still print out 120 pages of
>MACRO-10 for my latest mail program :)

CREFed and GLOBed, of course.  I always had line printer 
listings (the wide kind) of the CUSPs I supported.  Then
the world decided laser was a good idea.  Now the habit
was to cram the 132-columned format onto paper that was
build for 80-columns.  Doesn't fit?  Bright idea!  Print
the page sideways.  Then, not only does the poor programmer
acquire crinkles around the eyes from squinting at
characters that have been put on a pixel diet, he now
has to be able to move his neck to a 90 degree angle
to read the rotated text.

/BAH
 

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 security model
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 00 10:38:25 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <8ugmpt$g1o$2@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <3A07BBD5.1FB4166B@jetnet.ab.ca>,
   Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> 
>> One project, in particular, caused some grief caused primarily because
>> the programmer had used variable names up to 240 characters long! My
>> implementation only allowed 80 character identifiers. It was an easy fix
>> -- change a define, but I still can't understand the programmers
>> thinking in developing names that long!!
>> 
>
>As one programmer who never learned to type so I tend to have identifiers
>about 12 letters on variables and 16 on function names. I also have a 
strong
>dislike for object orientated programing languages because everything is a 
>shade of grey.Well today - is subtract and sub string removal and invert
>matrix.You have thousands of bits that really don't work well.
>Darn I don't have the object function I need,but I can do it with 5 or 6
>other functions if I make a new class from the primitives here.
>Memory also tends to less reused too. what was io_buffer[256] is now
>foobar.input.buffer[256], foo.output.buffer[24], fooie.buffer4[81].
>Ben.

Over the years, we had developed some naming standards so that,
if you needed to use a symbol, you usually could figure out
what that symbol's name was.  Larry Samberg rewound UUOSYM.MAC
for me to reflect the naming conventions.  The agreement was
that, if he spent his time getting one revision of the file
into shape, I would "maintain" it for the rest of my life.
Maintaining it usually meant using my virtual baseball bat
on an errant developer but that was their training.  I never
did get TW trained.  To help me figure out if an MCO impacted
UUOSYM (and thus, the monitor calls manual), we eventually
had a box at the bottom of the MCO form that the programmer
ticked if UUOSYM had to change.  That helped me a lot because
it was never clear from the symptom, diagnosis, cure sections
that the code involved a UUOSYM change.

The author of the MCO would tick off the box and I would scurry
around in the listings after the edit to try to figure out
what the appropriate entries into UUOSYM would be.  This was
often _not easy_.  TOPS-20 solved the problem by requiring that
the monitor build use the symbol universal (MONSYM).  That only
worked because their shipping procedures included shipping
CUSPs along with the monitor.  We didn't have that convenience
until I got the packaging and build procedures for the CUSPs
into a managable shape.  When we were able to build and ship
the CUSPs easily, getting managers to foot the budget for
maintenance CUSP releases wasn't as expensive as it had been
since the maintainers didn't have to worry about interfacing
with Release Engineering for every piddling CUSP change.

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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From: blarsen@nonews.net (Bjørn Hell Larsen)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 security model
Date: 06 Nov 2000 20:10:37 +0100
Organization: Nonews is good news
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Ronan Flood <ronan@noc.ulcc.ac.uk> writes:

> blarsen@nonews.net (Bjørn Hell Larsen) wrote:
> 
> > Acually, I wasn't trying to claim anything about York DEC-10 MUD being
> 
> ITYM Essex DEC-10 MUD.  York may have run a copy, but it didn't
> originate there.

You are quite right. My memory got muddled by the fact that the York
version was the only one I was able to access outside Norway, so I
played there for a while.


Bjørn
-- 

DoD#2537 / Senior MC - '90 FZ750 (Fizz) / '99 VT750C2 (Brumm)


Article 1968 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 security model
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 00 09:19:19 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 41
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In article <8ulloi$ivr$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
   inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
>In article <8ujbo2$frg$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <8ui3kf$1fsj$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
>>>Interestingly enough, the above MEM file does 
>>>not mention that if you had
>>>a UFD on DSKA and DSKB, then you needed to have two ACCESS.USR files.
>>
>>[puzzled emoticon here]  That's two directories.  I don't think it
>>ever occurred to us that somebody would think they were one directory.
>
>Well, if you have both DSKA and DSKB in your active search list, you
>could have DSK:[,,TECO]TECO.MAC == DSKA:[13,52,TECO]TECO.MAC
>and have DSK:[,,MACRO]MACRO.MAC == DSKB:[13,52,MACRO]MACRO.MAC
>and not think about which disk a given subdirectory existed on.
>
>But when it came to updating ACCESS.USR, you did have to think about
>which disk the subdirectory was on.  It bit me once.

Maybe it was the way you did your personal file management.  I
always used my DSKB: for the really valuable stuff and DSKC:
was my scratch disk for stuff I didn't care about.  I couldn't
have maintained source control management for all those pesky
CUSPs if it wasn't for the FILDAE.  The [7,3,cusp] area was
"owned" by the developer/maintainer and anybody who wanted to
know who owned a cusp only had to read the ACCESS.USR in that
area (I always inserted a comment giving the ASCII name).
The [7,2,cusp] areas were where I froze the code of the cusps
that were in field test and that's where I picked up all the
sources when building a field test tape.  The [7,1,cusp]
area was the field image and those areas were sacred. Nobody, and
I mean NOBODY, changed any of that software.  If a cusp wasn't
in field test, I copies the sources from the [7,1,cusp] area
to do the builds.

/BAH


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 1985 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TOPS-10 Extended Addressing
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:15:01 -0500
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Phil Budne wrote:
> 
> On 28 Sep 2000, Mark Crispin wrote;
> > Subject: Re: Timothy Stark's effort
> > Date: 28 Sep 2000 00:00:00 GMT
> >
> > TOPS-20 had user mode extended addressing, I don't think that TOPS-10
> >  ever did.
> 
> TOPS-10 7.03 implemented user mode extended addressing.
> 
> I found the following memo on a saveset from KL1026;
> 28-Aug-84 dskb:[10,70300,doc]uxaddr.mem (included below).
> 
> 7.03 UUOSYM includes the following (I didn't check for all the
> functions listed in the memo);
> 
> .PAGSC==12      ;CHANGE SECTION MAPPING
> 
> .FOFXI==34      ;INPUT (EXTENDED DUMP-MODE 'BI-WORD' FORMAT)
> .FOFXO==35      ;OUTPUT (EXTENDED DUMP-MODE 'BI-WORD' FORMAT)
> 
> The memo mentions FOROTS (The FORTRAN run-time system) support for
> user extended addressing, and I thought I remembered Jon Campbell
> (JLC) doing it as a midnight hack, but Alan Martin (AHM) couldn't find
> any trace of it.

To be specific, I couldn't find any ``FOFX''s in:

	FORIO					(FORHST)
Version		Last edit		Version		Last Edit
 7(3226)	29-Nov-82		 7(3226)	29-Nov-82
10(4127)	15-May-84		10(4127)	15-May-84
11(5033)	18-Mar-87		11(5042)	18-Jul-89

Since the last JLC FOROTS edit was 10(4220) of 25-Jul-85, any such
midnight hacks presumably didn't make it into mainline sources.
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 2034 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tim Stark's emulator, Lars GCC port and ...
Date: 27 Nov 2000 20:47:28 -0500
Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052
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Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.net> writes:

> Am I correct in assuming that the only UNIBUS in a KL10 was in the -11
> front-end? If so, what bus did an Ethernet controller use in a KL10?
> Was it possible to access the UNIBUS in the -11 from the KL10?

Your assumption is correct.  There was a Tops-20 program that set things up so
that the front-end filesystem was accessible as device FE:, for transferring
things back and forth; I expect that something similar existed on Tops-10.

DEC didn't provide a native Ethernet controller until after the Jupiter
cancellation, when they brought out the NI-20.  This was the same as the CI-20,
with different microcode and a different network interface.  Both used up *two*
RH20 slots.

Long before DEC had an Ethernet interface, you could get a MEIS (MASSBUSS-
Ethernet Interface Subsystem) from Stanford's Computer Science Deaprtment
computer Facility, later also available from cisco Systems.  This is an
interesting device, which resided in the -11 cabinet in the KL for power, but
lived on an RH20.  Looked much like a tape device to the operating system.

The NI-20 could not listen to itself, which made loopback debugging very
difficult; the MEIS had double buffers and worked much better than the DEC
device.

I admit that I'm biased--I know the guy who designed the MEIS, and the guy who
implemented it, and used both in my days at Stanford.

-- 
Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.com
  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless


Article 2063 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: R.J.S. <not@available.right.now>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: I have a KS10 now! ^_^
Organization: Very Organized
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On Wed, 29 Nov 00 11:15:32 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

>>AFAIK, TOPS-20 does not support the RH10 at all.
>
No support, but the code may have been there at one time or another. 

Actually, "P2" may have had an RH10. along with it's DL10.

Of course, it ran Dick Heliwell's (sp) special version of tops-20,
with support for the GT graphics tubes and SUDS.  IIRC, (WARNING: yet
another blonde moment may follow) you had to build the monitor with
the special HELIWELL conditionals turned on.  We actually used to get
an SPR every few months on that, asking what type of machine it was
for.

What was the model number of those graphics tubs, GT44???  Ten land
called them VB10Cs.  Basically, a GT40 with a faster CPU that was
attached to the -10 via a DL10.


Article 2065 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: I have a KS10 now! ^_^
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 00 10:37:24 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 32
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In article <f44b2tgg7iaj14m03st9fodq9j11bcm1k5@4ax.com>,
   R.J.S. <not@available.right.now> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Nov 00 11:15:32 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>>AFAIK, TOPS-20 does not support the RH10 at all.
>>
>No support, but the code may have been there at one time or another. 
>
>Actually, "P2" may have had an RH10. along with it's DL10.
>
>Of course, it ran Dick Heliwell's (sp) special version of tops-20,
>with support for the GT graphics tubes and SUDS.  

Dan did use #546 stand-alone on 5-5 so, yes, code did exist.
I suspect the only way it ever got out to the field (if it
ever did) was under the table.

I don't remember the serial number of Heliwell's KL.  It was
a hardware engineering machine with not much organization
around it w.r.t. operations.  IIR, it was probably the first
KL PC in the world :-).  I do remember when hardware engineering
started budgeting the operations group (I guess you guys call them
sysprogs now) for all the operations support.  Those hardware
engineers suffered from culture shock.



<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 2045 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Avant keyboard
Date: 28 Nov 2000 20:23:57 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
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In article <G4qtEF.1As@stoneboro.uucp.cirr.com>,
Chris Smith <htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots> wrote:
: ...
: On my avant-like maxiswitch I have put backquote[1] on one of the
: spare keys on the spacebar row.  On the Avant keyboard they have
: been endowed with Windows logos but once upon a time they were
: blank.  Could be used for Hyper and Super but I'm not that crazy.
: A touch-typable tilde could go in this row.
: 
: The L-shaped enter key really is truly useless, I wonder why
: it's so popular...
: 
Political correctness.  This all started, I think, with some massive
"human factors" study commissioned by DEC in Europe, which ultimately
resulted in some Din standards and the LK (canoe paddle) keyboard.  I'm
pretty sure this was at least a year or two before the IBM 101 keyboard.
(I remember first seeing the keyboards at a nondisclosure presentation
of... I think it was the Pro 350?... and being utterly appalled.  Of
course the Pro 350 offered a wide choice of appalling features.  Didn't
DEC finally empty its warehouses of them by making them into consoles
for the VAX 8700?)

Before that was a long period of "let the 100 flowers bloom", and some
very nice keyboards appeared, such as on the Concept-100.  Back in those
days, people touch typed, and there was value in having all the keys in
striking distance of the home keys.

The DEC study was basically geared towards making computers (and therefore
keyboards) more friendly to the general non-computer-using public, thereby
increasing the market for computers and terminals.  So as a result we had
to have all these ergonomically huge Return/Enter and Shift keys, and
whatnot (though, ironically, they never thought of a HELP key).  Implicit
in the process was the recognition that (a) the terminal-host model was dead
(so we don't need Ctrl or Esc keys any more), and (b) touch-typing was a
discredited legacy concept (because it is not a mass-market phenomenon).

The ultimate insult to the Old Guard was putting Caps Lock where Ctrl was.
What could be more useless?  This seemed to send us directly back to the
ASR 33 Teletype days when computers spoke only upper case.  (Those of us
who remember the VT50 and earlier still recall the liberating sensation of
entering and viewing lowercase on the VT52 and early DECwriters.)

To add fuel to the fire, various European government procurement bodies
began to *require* the new layout, so by 1983 or so, the only keyboards
available were essentially today's DEC and IBM layouts.  At least DEC
waffled by leaving Ctrl in the same row, rather than moving it way down to
tendon-twisting territory.  But anyway, what it all adds up to is: you're
supposed to be using a mouse, not a keyboard.

And that's why the market for good keyboards is a vanishingly small one.

: [1] Not, if you please, accent grave, unless ' is accent accute.
: I know this is a lost battle, but still, right is right.

Names of characters are assigned in the standards in which the characters
are defined.  The characters in question are defined in US ASCII (ANSI
X3.4-1986), ISO 646, ISO 8859, and ISO 10646.  In all of these, the names
of these two characters are APOSTROPHE and GRAVE ACCENT, respectively (and
yes, in uppercase too :-)

As you can see I don't really believe this is a PDP-10 newsgroup -- it's
more like a clubhouse for people who used to run or use them :-)  Actually,
in those days (20-25 years ago, yikes!) the DEC-10s and -20s were a given,
and terminals and keyboards were the hot topic.  Remember the Info-Terms
mailing list?

- Frank


Article 2052 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots (Chris Smith)
Subject: Re: Avant keyboard
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fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes:

| the names of these two characters are APOSTROPHE and GRAVE ACCENT

Very sorry to hear it, as you are definitely one who knows.
Thanks for the info though.  I had thought both alternatives were
given for both chars.

FWIW, the PDP-10 System Reference Manual, in the 1970 white phone book,
appendix B, Input-Output Codes, agrees that 0140 is grave.  It calls 
047 "accent acute or apostrophe."

I remember some (printing) terminals using apostrophe and grave, and
others that used acute and grave (and tilde also was an accent).  
I don't remember any video terminals using anything but apostrophe and
reverse-apostrophe, though I never used a video terminal that could
overstrike.

| The ultimate insult to the Old Guard was putting Caps Lock where Ctrl was.
| What could be more useless?  This seemed to send us directly back to the
| ASR 33 Teletype days when computers spoke only upper case.  (Those of us
| who remember the VT50 and earlier still recall the liberating sensation of
| entering and viewing lowercase on the VT52 and early DECwriters.)

Yes!  It was great, including the fab modern appearance of MACRO code
in lower case.  The use of case-independent monitor commands and FORTRAN
programs and so on doubtless stemmed from the way uppercase-only equipment
silently mapped lower to upper case for display.

The aforementioned white phone book has a photo of a KSR37 (on page 121).
I think I've read that it is the reason Unix treats lowercase chars as
first-class citizens, not synonyms for uppercase chars.  It has the
shifted digits with their "correct" values !"#$%&'() , but other stuff 
is much modified:

Left side of KSR33:

         1 2 3 ...
ALTMODE  Q W E ...
   CTRL  A S D ...
  SHIFT  Z X C ...

Left side of KSR37:

   </<        {/[  1 2 3 ...
   TAB        >/>  Q W E ...
PREFIX  SHIFTLOCK  A S D ...
  CTRL      SHIFT  Z X C ...

Right side of KSR33:

   9  0    */:       =/-
   O  P    LINEFEED  RETURN
   L  +/;  RUBOUT
 >/.  ?//  SHIFT

Right side of KSR37:

   9  0    =/-     _/_        }/]        ~/^  |/\
   O  P    `/@     RETURN     BACKSPACE  IDLE
   L  +/;  */:     LINESPACE  DELETE
 ./.  ?//  SHIFT   CTRL

The graphic for 0140 is backquote, but given the dangerous revisionism
exhibited elsewhere, I'm not sure that's a recommendation.  The biggest
thing is probably newline in place of cr/lf.  I had forgotten how nice
it was to have + and * in handy spots.  No ESC, no LF.  No wonder adb
is so crippled.

| Remember the Info-Terms mailing list?

I do not, but I may have read some digests after the fact.  I do 
remember some keypad wars, including the GOLD key, an early victory 
for big-hand-movement computing.


Article 2073 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tim Stark's emulator, Lars GCC port and ...
Date: 30 Nov 2000 18:30:45 -0500
Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

> In article <mdd3dgcoojz.fsf@panix3.panix.com>,
>    Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote:

>> This was the same as the CI-20, with different microcode and a different
>> network interface.  Both used up *two* RH20 slots.

> Didn't the CI-20 have to do with those disk drives?  

More than just the disks.  The CI-20 was a 50Mbps network interface, with which
KL's running Tops-20 and HSC-50's could be clustered (via a star coupler), and
all access common disks (as well as local disks on each -20, but that lost very
badly).

This was the big news in Tops-20 6.0 (rapidly upgraded to 6.1 right out of the
6.0 field test).  It made it very much easier to spread system load among the
systems at LOTS, and decrease admin workloads, since all 4 CPUs (3 KL's and 1
SC-30M) could access the same user and program directories.  I wish we had done
something with it on the Toad-1.

-- 
Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.com
  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless


Article 2164 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "D. R. Banks" <dawn@drbanks.nospamDOTcom>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012030024490.3958-100000@bony.umtec.com> <90fd0b$ecr$1@dbit.dbit.com> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012040806190.5447-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3A2BAC15.5790632B@bartek.net> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012041233550.5447-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3A2C05A9.EBB63F46@srv.net> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012041501250.5447-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3A2C2948.C48E90D6@bartek.net> <3A2C2FBB.EB3C6E3B@bartek.net> <90imp6$c34$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A2D0378.B5F07323@bartek.net>
Subject: Re: TU45...
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2164

Out of respect for everything that's decent, let's not say "TU7n."

TU70s TU71s and TU72s came from Storage Technology Corp.  TU78s came from
garbage manufacturers.

The STC drives were, in a word, brilliant.  They were and are the only tape
drives DEC ever slapped their nameplate on that I would trust useful data
to.

Sadly, DEC put a 100% markup on the drive (comparing bought from STC price
vs. bought from DEC price), and instructed STC to never deal directly with
DEC customers.

Instead, DEC pushed those POS TU78s.  An operator, trying to do a backup to
a TU78 (often an exercise that was even worse than a waste of time) would
often find that upon rewinding the tape, the stupid 78 couldn't read the
tape label that it'd just written a few minutes before.  For those not in
the know, this was quite an achievement on the part of the TU78, as the 6250
BPI tape density had so much error correction that you could lose one track
on write and two tracks on read and still get your data back.

If one could buy a TU72 directly from STC, it'd have come at a cheaper price
than what one would pay for a TU78 from DEC, but sadly, Digital's
"Marketing" department took care of that.

To be fair, although the TU70,1,2 drives were pretty inexpensive, the
interface to the -10 or -20 wasn't.  It involved a STC controller
('spensive) and a DX-10 or DX-20.  The latter had wirewrapped components.
The rumor was that Digital had only ever planned on selling 4 DX-20s, so it
never bothered to setup a real manufacturing line for them.  Whether or not
that's true, one place I used to work had 10 of the only 4 DX-20s ever
built. ;-)

An interesting thing about reading blank tape:

TOPS-10 would time out requests.  If it issued a request and didn't get a
response in about 3 mintues, it'd kill the request, and return "Hung
device."  A TU-70 could actually get to physical end of tape on a 2400 foot
reel in that time (it being a 200 IPS drive).  Trying to read a blank tape
could exhaust the entire reel before getting a hung timeout.

FWIW, from memory, TU-70 was 800/1600 BPI 9-Track 200 IPS, TU-71 was a
7-track drive, TU-72 was 1600/6250 BPI 9-Track 125 IPS.

STC also sold a 1600/6250 9-Track drive that did 200 IPS (memory fades, but
I believe it was their model number 3670), but DEC didn't have any channels
that could reliably keep up with it.

How times have changed.  6250 bytes per second at 200 inches per second
turns out to be 1.25 megabytes per second (decimal megabytes).  Today, we'd
turn our noses up at drives that couldn't do that.  The DDS-3 DAT drive on
my PeeCee can handle 1Mb/sec uncompressed;2 Mb/sec compressed, and that
seems slow.

"Arthur Krewat" <krewat@bartek.net> wrote in message
news:3A2D0378.B5F07323@bartek.net...
> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >It doesn't really matter if you are past BOT on load, it will just
rewind
> > >the tape until it finds that shiny BOT :) So, load up on the take-up
reel
> > >all you want ...
> >
> > Welll....unless you have a runaway tape.  Do not leave the
> > tape drive to do it's own loading...ever.  You could do that
> > with TU7n, but that's because DEC didn't make them.
> >
>
> I had a TU78 for my VAX-11/750, but it was THROWN OUT! <sob>
>
> ak




Article 2113 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.213!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!weiner
From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner)
Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY
Message-ID: <G50y3F.D5p@world.std.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:38:03 GMT
References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A2925C2.D4B20187@bartek.net> <aek-0212001501150001@haxrus.apple.com>
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2113

In article <aek-0212001501150001@haxrus.apple.com>,
Al Kossow <aek@spies.com> wrote:
>In article <3A2925C2.D4B20187@bartek.net>, Arthur Krewat
><krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
>
>> Does documentation for DDT-10 live anywhere on the Net?
>> 
>> If not, I have the decsystem10, DDT "Dynamic Debugging Technique"
>> manual Order No. DEC-10-UDDTA-A-D
>> 
>> It's 70 pages, not too big.
>> 
>> If it's not available, I'll scan it in ...
>> 
>> art k.
>
>As far as I know, there is no on-line 10 software documentation
>around, with the exception of the stuff in the 'phone book' that
>I just scanned in.

If someone can find the TSU (Autopatch replacement) tapes,
they include online copies of some manuals, basically any
which were updated after around 1988 or so.  DDT probably
isn't included but command references and Monitor Calls were.
I have a copy of these (the documents, not the TSU tapes)
but it is on media I don't have ready access to at the moment.

There were 3 to 4 TSU tapes for each of TOPS10, TOPS20 6.1, and
TOPS20 4.1.  The last would have been issued in late 1989.

>This is going to become a problem once Tim releases his emulator.

I'll see what I can do about getting the documents extracted
before then (when?)

Sam


Article 2196 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: For Tim, 166 emulator please
References: <87k89eqzur.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <3A2DB295.1780D9C7@bartek.net> <vXjX5.38285$%j3.426305@news6.giganews.com> <90noqs$21e5$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
From: Paul Repacholi <prep@k9.prep.synonet.com>
Date: 07 Dec 2000 23:21:49 +0800
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inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) writes:

> In article <vXjX5.38285$%j3.426305@news6.giganews.com>,
> Timothy Stark  <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
> >Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
> >> Paul Repacholi wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Tim, I know your plate overfloweth, but would
> >>> you consider adding 166 ( PDP-6 ) emulation
> >>> to you code.
> >>> 
> >>> I can get a copy of 4.27 to drive it :)
> >>> or 4.07 come to think of it.
> >>> 
> >
> >Latest is 7.04.  You can get them at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com
> 
> But TOPS-10 7.04 won't run on a PDP-6.
> Neither with version 6.03.
> I'm not sure about any of the 4S series, but 4.27 sounds about
> right for the last Monitor than ran on a PDP-6 (Model 166 processor).

It was. For 7 minutes before the 6 was shut down.

~Paul


Article 2207 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: For Tim, 166 emulator please
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 21:38:27 GMT
Message-ID: <3a300251.3425891@news.m.iinet.net.au>
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Hey Paul,

How did you get the 7 minute figure? Since I ran my updated 476, I if
anybody should know how long it ran for and although my memory is hazy
I think it was more like half an hour without any detectable BUGS. My
spooler also worked without a hitch. Very satisfying after the many
early morning sessions with AEJA debugging it.

Regards,

On 07 Dec 2000 23:21:49 +0800, Paul Repacholi
<prep@k9.prep.synonet.com> wrote:

>inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) writes:
>
>> In article <vXjX5.38285$%j3.426305@news6.giganews.com>,
>> Timothy Stark  <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>> >Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
>> >> Paul Repacholi wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>> Tim, I know your plate overfloweth, but would
>> >>> you consider adding 166 ( PDP-6 ) emulation
>> >>> to you code.
>> >>> 
>> >>> I can get a copy of 4.27 to drive it :)
>> >>> or 4.07 come to think of it.
>> >>> 
>> >
>> >Latest is 7.04.  You can get them at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com
>> 
>> But TOPS-10 7.04 won't run on a PDP-6.
>> Neither with version 6.03.
>> I'm not sure about any of the 4S series, but 4.27 sounds about
>> right for the last Monitor than ran on a PDP-6 (Model 166 processor).
>
>It was. For 7 minutes before the 6 was shut down.
>
>~Paul

--Rolie Baldock.  email:  <berd_kalamunda@'nospam'techemail.com>


Article 2194 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: For Tim, 166 emulator please
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:49:23 -0800
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On 7 Dec 2000, Joe Smith wrote:
> But TOPS-10 7.04 won't run on a PDP-6.
> Neither with version 6.03.
> I'm not sure about any of the 4S series, but 4.27 sounds about
> right for the last Monitor than ran on a PDP-6 (Model 166 processor).

UC Berkeley's PDP-6 ran TOPS-10 5.07 at the time it was retired.  I have
one of its bit-slice boards.

I also knew the Stanford and MIT PDP-6 machines.  The Stanford PDP-6 and
one of the MIT PDP-6s were still in working condition when I first met
them.  The Stanford PDP-6 wasn't retired until 1980.  Unfortunately, in
1984 it was naively donated to the Computer Museum, which descerated it.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 2263 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: TECO - compiled succesfully :-)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:52:56 -0800
Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing
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On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Rolie Baldock wrote:
> Certainly looks like old familiar stuff, but I cannot see the REAL
> value in a KS-10(not familiar with that beast used to a KL-10) over a
> PDP-6. a private user with plenty of memory will not need to share
> code so one memory relocation register and one memory protection
> register would be blessing enough.

Let's see now...

The PDP-6 had even worse floating point than the KA (I forget the details,
thankfully).  It had that silly PC change flag instead of the useful set
of overflow flags.  It had the same broken implementation of dual-halfword
increments (AOBJN, PUSH, BLT, etc.) as the KA.  The PDP-6 didn't have
JFFO, not to mention the KI instructions (DMOVE, etc.) or the KL
instructions (ADJBP).

Not to mention the program control and pager stuff needed by TOPS-20 and
any halfway modern version of TOPS-10; you'd have to use ancient versions
of TOPS-10 that used relocation/protection registers and thus had The Big
BLT (know to DECies as "shuffling")...read S-L-O-W.   Or you could run an
even more ancient one that doesn't have The Big BLT, and get the old
familiar "CORE AVAILABLE BUT NOT TO YOU".

A single relocation/protection register means that you'd have to recompile
every program under the sun not to use hisegs, and you'd probably need a
PDP-10 to do it, since MACRO and LINK are both twoseg.  Oops, you can't
use LINK, that means good ol' LOADER, heh heh.

Let's put it this way.  You could emulate an 8086 and get it to run some
version of DOS, but the result wouldn't run much in the way of useful PC
software.  A 286 emulator would be the rough equivalent of a KA emulator;
at that point you can run 16-bit Windows.  A 386 emulator would be like a
KI emulator; you can run some 32-bit programs.  But to run modern software
you'd need to emulate a 486 (equivalent to a KS emulator) and preferably a
Pentium (equivalent to a KL emulator).

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



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Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >6.03a has support for the 1091, but looking at SYSINI.MAC, I find
> >nothing for the KS10, just a lot of KA/KI/KL stuff...
> >
> >Now, that has me wondering... how the HELL did we run 6.03 (not 6.03A!)
> >on a KS10?
> 
> It shouldn't have been hard to tweak it.  6.03A was only a maintenance
> release.

I'm wondering...

> I seem to recall a 1091 LIR.  So that means that the 1091 did
> run under 6.03.  I simply cannot recall who did the packaging
> for the KS.  Can somebody give John Everett a kick and ask him
> to lurk the weekend?  I know he wrote about the KS project
> quite a while back.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I recall that when we got the KS10's,
the only thing that ran on them was TOPS-20. (this was before I
worked there by a year or two). Of course, we were a TOPS-10
shop, so that was unacceptable.

I asked a co-worker, and learned that my future boss used the 
existing KA10 to hack the 6.03 binaries so they would boot on a KS10. 

As soon as he could boot 6.03, he altered the sources accordingly and
recompiled.

I don't think we ever had a "real" distribution tape for 6.03...

I'm not sure how much he had to do to get it working, but I seem to
remember a "KSSER.MAC", which doesn't exist in the 6.03 archives.
I believe he stole the KLSER.MAC and modified to fit... how hard
would it be to get a KS10 running hacked KL sources? Would you
need "tops-10" paging? :)

art k.


Article 2242 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Harris S. Newman <hsnewman@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 14:19:38 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <90qqll$g55$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.19.97.137
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X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDhsnewman
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2242

I just read an article on John Fletcher at:
http://www.ornl.gov/ORNL/SC/john_fletcher_1.html

In it it mentions that he wrote, with Mike Nemanic, an package that
emulates the pdp-10 on a Cray?

Anyone know about this? Anyone have access to it to post?


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


Article 2244 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Message-ID: <3A3100C0.B4F570B4@bartek.net>
From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc)
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Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY
References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <z5RX5.54977$IP1.1812271@news1.giganews.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90q2s5$1o0a$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A30E2C7.47025F46@bartek.net> <90qq1b$a5m$2@bob.news.rcn.net>
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2244

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >6.03a has support for the 1091, but looking at SYSINI.MAC, I find
> >nothing for the KS10, just a lot of KA/KI/KL stuff...
> >
> >Now, that has me wondering... how the HELL did we run 6.03 (not 6.03A!)
> >on a KS10?
> 
> It shouldn't have been hard to tweak it.  6.03A was only a maintenance
> release.

I'm wondering...

> I seem to recall a 1091 LIR.  So that means that the 1091 did
> run under 6.03.  I simply cannot recall who did the packaging
> for the KS.  Can somebody give John Everett a kick and ask him
> to lurk the weekend?  I know he wrote about the KS project
> quite a while back.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I recall that when we got the KS10's,
the only thing that ran on them was TOPS-20. (this was before I
worked there by a year or two). Of course, we were a TOPS-10
shop, so that was unacceptable.

I asked a co-worker, and learned that my future boss used the 
existing KA10 to hack the 6.03 binaries so they would boot on a KS10. 

As soon as he could boot 6.03, he altered the sources accordingly and
recompiled.

I don't think we ever had a "real" distribution tape for 6.03...

I'm not sure how much he had to do to get it working, but I seem to
remember a "KSSER.MAC", which doesn't exist in the 6.03 archives.
I believe he stole the KLSER.MAC and modified to fit... how hard
would it be to get a KS10 running hacked KL sources? Would you
need "tops-10" paging? :)

art k.


Article 2332 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tim Stark's emulator, Lars GCC port and ...
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:54:36 -0500
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3A33ED8C.E3660534@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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Rich Alderson wrote:
> 
>...  The CI-20 was a 50Mbps network interface, with which
> KL's running Tops-20 and HSC-50's could be clustered (via a star coupler), and
> all access common disks (as well as local disks on each -20, but that lost very
> badly).
> 
> This was the big news in Tops-20 6.0 (rapidly upgraded to 6.1 right out of the
> 6.0 field test).  It made it very much easier to spread system load among the
> systems at LOTS, and decrease admin workloads, since all 4 CPUs (3 KL's and 1
> SC-30M) could access the same user and program directories.  I wish we had done
> something with it on the Toad-1.

The HSC and Star Coupler peripheral hardware for CFS-20 (Common File
System) was the same as for VAX Clusters.

CFS-20 started working in-house before VAX Clusters did.  (I wouldn't be
surprised if Clusters shipped before CFS, though).
				/AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martin				AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com


Article 2372 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Remember FOCAL?
References: <YbyV5.27109$IP1.827764@news1.giganews.com> <rtCV5.28162$%j3.271001@news6.giganews.com> <3a32c59b.7800173@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A32C88F.CEF4CADE@bartek.net> <90vl7m$309p$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy.
Date: 10 Dec 2000 18:38:41 -0800
Message-ID: <qh8zpnn0lq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2372 alt.folklore.computers:12504

inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) writes:
> At the Colorado School of Mines, the members of the 6502 Users Group
> came up with interesting things to do with the Mostek microprocessor.

As one of the members of said group, I feel entitled to pick nits.  :-)
That's the "MOS Technology" processor.  Mostek was another company
entirely, and produced the Z-80, F8, 3870, and (later) 68000.  But
there was never a "Mostek 6502".

MOS Technology was acquired by Commodore to become Commodore Semiconductor
Group.


Article 2514 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Remember FOCAL?
References: <YbyV5.27109$IP1.827764@news1.giganews.com> <rtCV5.28162$%j3.271001@news6.giganews.com> <3a32c59b.7800173@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A32C88F.CEF4CADE@bartek.net> <90vl7m$309p$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Message-ID: <m1n1e0xcmh.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>
Organization: Stonehenge Consulting Services; Portland, Oregon, USA
Lines: 33
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2514 alt.folklore.computers:12767

>>>>> "Joe" == Joe Smith <inwap@best.com> writes:

Joe> In article <3A32C88F.CEF4CADE@bartek.net>,
Joe> Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
>> Rolie Baldock wrote:
>>> And have you ever heard of FOCAL-10 by IGP?
>> 
>> Good ole FOCAL? I've experienced it, but have no memories about it
>> except I've programmed in it...

Joe> At the Colorado School of Mines, the members of the 6502 Users Group
Joe> came up with interesting things to do with the Mostek microprocessor.
Joe> One of them was to implent FOCAL on it, so that it could run the
Joe> small library of FOCAL-10 programs (and a much larger library of
Joe> FOCAL-8 programs).  Dawn Banks did a port to the Z80 processor and I
Joe> hacked it to run under CP/M.

I claim FOCAL as my first programming language, having pawed through a
PDP/8 FOCAL Handbook at the age of 8 (some 30 years ago), and
scribbled a few program modifications on paper based on the stuff I
was seeing.  I took it to my dad, who figured out how to get the high
school to get me weekend access to their ASR-33 connected to a HP2100
system, and I started programming in BASIC for real, instead of in
FOCAL on paper.

I never got to run anything on a PDP/8, or anything that runs FOCAL.
But it's still my first programming language.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!


Article 2644 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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    <90vl7m$309p$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
    <m1n1e0xcmh.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>
From: djg@munin.sabir.com (David Gesswein)
Subject: Re: Remember FOCAL?
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
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In article <m1n1e0xcmh.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>,
	merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:
> I claim FOCAL as my first programming language, having pawed through a
> PDP/8 FOCAL Handbook at the age of 8 (some 30 years ago), and
> scribbled a few program modifications on paper based on the stuff I
> was seeing.  
...
> I never got to run anything on a PDP/8, or anything that runs FOCAL.
> But it's still my first programming language.
> 
If you still want to, you can run focal on my PDP-8/E.

http://www.pdp8.net/run.shtml
Use shortcuts->run program select languages then one of the focal versions.
Under games are a couple of games written in focal.

html focal help
http://www.pdp8.net/lang/focal/index.shtml

David Gesswein
http://www.pdp8.net/  -- Old computers with blinkenlights


Article 2371 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tim Stark's emulator, Lars GCC port and ...
References: <3A213AEA.D783B415@bellatlantic.net> <U9fU5.4298$IP1.186280@news1.giganews.com> <8vtibc$1qo$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A2298E1.36F65ACB@bartek.net> <mdd3dgcoojz.fsf@panix3.panix.com> <9003bf$7s6$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <mdd1yvtm40q.fsf@panix2.panix.com> <3A33ED8C.E3660534@MA.UltraNet.Com>
X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy.
Date: 10 Dec 2000 18:44:48 -0800
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"Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:
> The HSC and Star Coupler peripheral hardware for CFS-20 (Common File
> System) was the same as for VAX Clusters.

That was true originally with the HSC50, but apparently the required
support for 576-byte (8-bit-byte) sectors was dropped in later versions
of the HSC, and even in later software for the HSC50.

I'm still looking for a CI20, HSC50 and suitable software.


Article 2430 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tim Stark's emulator, Lars GCC port and ...
References: <3A213AEA.D783B415@bellatlantic.net> <U9fU5.4298$IP1.186280@news1.giganews.com> <8vtibc$1qo$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A2298E1.36F65ACB@bartek.net> <mdd3dgcoojz.fsf@panix3.panix.com> <9003bf$7s6$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <mdd1yvtm40q.fsf@panix2.panix.com> <3A33ED8C.E3660534@MA.UltraNet.Com> <qh66krn0bj.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>
Date: 12 Dec 2000 02:24:24 +0800
Message-ID: <87aea295pj.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>
Lines: 22
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2430

Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:

> "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:
> > The HSC and Star Coupler peripheral hardware for CFS-20 (Common File
> > System) was the same as for VAX Clusters.
> 
> That was true originally with the HSC50, but apparently the required
> support for 576-byte (8-bit-byte) sectors was dropped in later versions
> of the HSC, and even in later software for the HSC50.
> 
> I'm still looking for a CI20, HSC50 and suitable software.

CRONIC 3.50 was the last 576 byte sector version. Finding
the disks would be an even bigger bitch...

Hum... hack on an HSJ and use SCSI?

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.


Article 2429 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tim Stark's emulator, Lars GCC port and ...
References: <3A213AEA.D783B415@bellatlantic.net> <U9fU5.4298$IP1.186280@news1.giganews.com> <8vtibc$1qo$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A2298E1.36F65ACB@bartek.net> <mdd3dgcoojz.fsf@panix3.panix.com> <9003bf$7s6$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <mdd1yvtm40q.fsf@panix2.panix.com> <3A33ED8C.E3660534@MA.UltraNet.Com>
From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>
Date: 12 Dec 2000 01:41:05 +0800
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Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2429

"Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> writes:

> The HSC and Star Coupler peripheral hardware for CFS-20 (Common File
> System) was the same as for VAX Clusters.
> 
> CFS-20 started working in-house before VAX Clusters did.  (I wouldn't be
> surprised if Clusters shipped before CFS, though).

I was at the Vegan Decus in 83. They had a pair of 780s clustered
and a CFS-20 next to each other.

All the demo machine where sold off at half price. I got a Pro 350.
Someone bought the 20, on a credit card! This caused a shock-horror
to the 20 people as their carefully move proofed demo machine was
about to vanish... I heard they did a 'deal' and another system
was shipped asap.

So if that was not the first shipped, then it was the first sold.
Pre Clusters. I installed the first cluster in Europe in Jan 85.
Or so DEC Holland claimed. We ran it for about 15 min...

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.


Article 2506 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 12:21:40 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <917th6$q1o$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <wwn1e1m8br.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
   Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes:
>
> /BAH> In article <wwk896mryr.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,
> /BAH>    Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Anyway, if I had one on my desk I wouldn't run either MPB or GALAXY.  
They
> >> were just "hacks" (that sounds too harsh, but ...) to run batch on a 
time
> >> sharing system.  I would want just my own "personal timesharing 
system" in
> >> the form of a -10.
>
> /BAH> <grin>  Depends what kind of work you want to do.  I usually
> /BAH> had 20 things going on at once.  I couldn't have done it if
> /BAH> I had to tie a terminal up with each one.  Were those patch
> /BAH> panels still around when you were?  Were you around when
> /BAH> we finally got a terminal in each office.  
>
>Sure, you had 4 monitor builds, 10 tape verifies, ..., going, then.  Would
>you still do that if you had a system on your desk now?  :-)

Sure.  I'd finish putting those diagnotics in some kind of 
_documented_ order.  I type PRINT FOO.BAR and not have to
wait for it.  I could submit a test build and yak with you
guys waiting for it to hit the next error.  <gasp>  I could
even get online in two minutes rather than the 15 minute 
procedure I do before I dial out just so I have a snowball's
chance in hell not viewing a BSOD.

Give me the tools, I'll figure out something useful to do.


>
>ISTR that the patch panels were still there, but they went to one terminal
>per office.

Hmmm....didn't you have to move plugs in the patch panel to go
follow the green packs?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 2357 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "D. R. Banks" <dawn@drbanks.nospamDOTcom>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com>    <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>    <z5RX5.54977$IP1.1812271@news1.giganews.com>    <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com>    <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net>    <jh5Y5.58703$IP1.1922945@news1.giganews.com>    <mddaea5rp5f.fsf@panix3.panix.com>    <qhelzhlznm.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>    <MuDY5.65356$IP1.2151359@news1.giganews.com> <910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet>
Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY)
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"Chris Hedley" <cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet...
> In article <MuDY5.65356$IP1.2151359@news1.giganews.com>,
> Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:
> > Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology for
PC
> > like Pentium III and IV is more faster....  To match speed with Cray-1
for
> > your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-)
> >
> > With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older
programs
> > that were written in 70s and 80s.  I had old copy of ZOO archive
program.
> > When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled.  It took a few
> > seconds to complete!  It made me think that I compiled them on Cray-1
> > instead!  800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster
than
> > Cray-2.  That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly code
> > up to 4 MIPS in C language.  When I used gcc -S to produce assembly
> > code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions
needed
> > to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor...
>
> The thing people always forget is that usable computing power boils
> down to more than CPU speed: they can make the CPU as fast as they
> like, but if they continue to neglect the rest of the components it's
> not going to make the slightest difference...  With my PC, I've made
> the best of a bad job, but the thing's still crippled by its weedy
> I/O capabilities...

Well, even the weediest PeeCee can do I/O better than ANY VMS system.

Used to be to laugh to watch the Digital salesdroids go out and try to bench
VAXen against -10s.  They'd keep throwing bigger and bigger CPUs at the
problem, never realizing that the issue wasn't one of CPU speed but the fact
that VMS can't do I/O to save its life.

I never thought of -10s as being big I/O pumps - I mean, all you had to do
is go hang around some 370 running OS/VS1 MFT LSMFT if you wanted to see
real I/O.  (Not that there was anything else you'd ever want to do with a
370, but it sure could pump bits.)  VAXen and VMS made the -10 look like a
long haul bit-flinger by comparison.

>
> Not that I'm dissing your emulator, of course, and it has the benefit
> that 30 year old discs can fit easily into today's humungous memory,
> thus bypassing said I/O restrictions in this case.
>
> Chris.




Article 2392 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:17:54 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 95
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In article <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net>,
   hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>"D. R. Banks" wrote:
>> 
>> "Chris Hedley" <cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet...
>> > In article <MuDY5.65356$IP1.2151359@news1.giganews.com>,
>> > Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:
>> > > Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology 
for
>> PC
>> > > like Pentium III and IV is more faster....  To match speed with 
Cray-1
>> for
>> > > your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-)
>> > >
>> > > With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older
>> programs
>> > > that were written in 70s and 80s.  I had old copy of ZOO archive
>> program.
>> > > When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled.  It took a few
>> > > seconds to complete!  It made me think that I compiled them on 
Cray-1
>> > > instead!  800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster
>> than
>> > > Cray-2.  That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly 
code
>> > > up to 4 MIPS in C language.  When I used gcc -S to produce assembly
>> > > code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions
>> needed
>> > > to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor...
>> >
>> > The thing people always forget is that usable computing power boils
>> > down to more than CPU speed: they can make the CPU as fast as they
>> > like, but if they continue to neglect the rest of the components it's
>> > not going to make the slightest difference...  With my PC, I've made
>> > the best of a bad job, but the thing's still crippled by its weedy
>> > I/O capabilities...
>> 
>> Well, even the weediest PeeCee can do I/O better than ANY VMS system.
>> 
>> Used to be to laugh to watch the Digital salesdroids go out and try to 
bench
>> VAXen against -10s.  They'd keep throwing bigger and bigger CPUs at the
>> problem, never realizing that the issue wasn't one of CPU speed but the 
fact
>> that VMS can't do I/O to save its life.
>> 
>> I never thought of -10s as being big I/O pumps - I mean, all you had to 
do
>> is go hang around some 370 running OS/VS1 MFT LSMFT if you wanted to see
>> real I/O.  (Not that there was anything else you'd ever want to do with 
a
>> 370, but it sure could pump bits.)  VAXen and VMS made the -10 look like 
a
>> long haul bit-flinger by comparison.
>> 
>> >
>> > Not that I'm dissing your emulator, of course, and it has the benefit
>> > that 30 year old discs can fit easily into today's humungous memory,
>> > thus bypassing said I/O restrictions in this case.
>> >
>> > Chris.
>
>let me play devils advocate here for a second...
>Gee, you mean that the 13.3MB/s was not good enough?
>Do you mean that Balanced systems have some kind of relationship between
>I/O and mythical MIPS or VUPS?
>I just recall when we benchmarked KL against "11/780" and the marketing
>duds wanted to say the standard was a 780, even tho it benchmarked
>slower
>than a KL.
>No razzle dazzle here, there was a problem with 8/a FPP that 
>Don White did, was faster at fortran benchmarks, and more accurate
>than the 11/70 with FPP...hmmm I think I failed at being a devils
>advocate.  I invoked two machines with the MSB labeled bit 0...
>bad bad

VMS was an operating system that was senile before its first
ship.  Of course it's not going to do anything efficiently...
other than spend a lot of time thinking about what it should
do next.  

I didn't have much problem with the VAX architecture (well,
quite a bit of it didn't make much sense...but what do I know),
but the software implementation was just a repeat of what we
saw in the early 70s.  There's a really good reason that 
"small computer thinking" can be read in two ways.

We fucking blew it with the VMS implementation the way we
did it.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 2403 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 12:08:57 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 50
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In article <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,
   peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>In article <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>VMS was an operating system that was senile before its first
>>ship.
>
>IIRC, it was Cutler's second OS... RSX-11 being the first. 

Uh, no.  I'm really tired of Cutler getting credit just because
he was a funcking manager.  When I started at DEC, 1971, he
was already a manager and it was other people who did the 
real work...despite his insistence that his name get put
on everything.


>I liked RSX-11
>a lot more than VMS for all it was a bitch to work with for timesharing.
>But then most *real* realtime operating systems are.

That's what happens when you try implementing timesharing with
a task mentality.

>>I didn't have much problem with the VAX architecture
>
>I did. It's a brass-plated bastard to make run fast, because of the
>instruction set. 

Oh, I thought it would be marvelous to do typesetting.

>It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11.

But of course that's all it was.  Heaven forbid that PDP-10
experience be noticed.  Should I point out that Bell, Cutler
and Hosvedt(sp?) did NOT have accounts on any PDP-10?  I take
that back.  Bell had an account; it was used twice with a connect
time of about 2 minutes/session.

These people didn't know what timesharing meant let alone how
to design or program for it.

>Alpha's pretty nice, though. Pity intel's doing such a good FUD job on it
>with their vaporware "Itanium".

Another example of Digital eating its feed corn.  JMF didn't have
too much grey hair when dealt with the Alpha.  

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 2536 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Manuals
From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>
Date: 15 Dec 2000 01:33:24 +0800
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There is an Australian Computer Museum Soc (WA) meeting on
Sunday. I'll have a good look and see if the TOPS-20
Installation Manual is their, and get it scanned. I'll
also do the 6 manuals, the ones one the net are the maintance
manuals, thought they prob have the info in them.

And somewhere, I have the users guide for 'TN', dated
April 65. This program was on a Bendix, the moved to the
6.

The interesting thing is the load and run instructions!
What, run from object files??? Ah, yes, the first version
of the loader didn't 0 compress. Not good with DECtapes
as the main storage...

But that is another story.

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.


Article 2770 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: BLT 17,17 bug had been fixed but..
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 00 12:58:32 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 106
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References: <6TiY5.46657$%j3.530564@news6.giganews.com> <90teal$10b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <J9AY5.115963$DG3.2253745@news2.giganews.com> <912p5b$sos$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A3D0F96.C12B2223@MA.UltraNet.Com> <91npur$43p$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <3A40190E.70E2FB95@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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In article <3A40190E.70E2FB95@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
   "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <3A3D0F96.C12B2223@MA.UltraNet.Com>,
>>    "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <J9AY5.115963$DG3.2253745@news2.giganews.com>,
>> >>    Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>....
>> >> >[FL23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >[FL23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >[FE23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >MOVEKEY
>> >> >[FL23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >[R23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >[FL23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >[FL23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >> >[FE23: DSKB0:ACTDAE.SYS[1,4]]
>> >>
>> >> But why the hell is Spider lookup/entering this so damn often?
>> >> Did he really go through a complete I/O programming cycle for
>> >> each LOGIN password check?
>> >
>> >ACTDAE is manipulating ACTDAE.SYS in a locking protocol in response to
>> >lock/unlock accounting file (UGLOK/UGUNL) IPCF messages, sent by
>> >something via the QUEUE. UUO function .QUMAE (send a message to the
>> >account daemon).
>> 
>> That still doesn't make any sense.  You don't have to lock/unlock
>> with CLOSE UUOs since there the file can be opened with an exlusivity.
>
>The code is UNLOCK:, ... in:
>
>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/CUSPBINSRC_1OF2_BB-X128C-SB/ACTDAE.
MAC
>
>which calls OPNA:,... in:
>
>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/CUSPBINSRC_1OF2_BB-X128C-SB/ACTLIB.
MAC
>
>(Although since *that* calls RMS, one has to peer even deeper to find
>the actual FILOP.'s, etc. getting SET WATCH FILEd).

I know.  That doesn't answer the question about the reason
to lock at system startup time.  The only reason to lock is
to prevent access while the file is getting updated.  By design,
the only program accessing that file is the ACTDAE.  And I 
certainly don't want to preclude valid reads of that file by other
programs such as BACKUP...ever!


>> >I've never used a -10 with account validation enabled; it should be
>> >common for this message to be logged upon boot.
>> 
>> Every time you logged in you were getting your account validated.
>> We just made it painless for you development guys.
>
>The account validation ST%ACV refers to is described this way in MONGEN:
>
>"
>ASKACV:	ASKYN	<Account verification (YES,NO) [
>LOGIN and the batch system will verify that the user has specified a valid 
>account.
>    If you answer YES, when accounts are associated with their PPNs and 
>when ACTDAE is running, users can log in only if they specify a valid 
>account string.  If you answer NO, no verification test is made.]>
>	FILOUT	<M.ACV==:*@>,N
>"
>
>Yeah, I'd assumed that at least some of the systems had per-PPN default
>account strings to keep things simple.  But I never typed an
>/ACCOUNT:atxt switch to LOGIN, and that MONGEN prose makes it sound like
>the user actually has to lift a cuticle and feed something to LOGIN.

You should read the explanation again.  Every word was chosen
carefully to convey the precise meaning and functionality.
Pay especial attention to the word "when" in the phrase
"when accounts are associated with their ppns".

They do have to lift a cuticle.  And you would have if cost center
341 had not owned all the hardware.  You would have had to
enter your Discrete Project Numbers whenever you logged in.
However, I had anticipated that one, too and had a painless
design just for that case because of the following edict given
to me.

In addition, one of the
constraints of the accounting project was that I would not
impact any other development and that included causing a 
developer to enter a few more characters to a new prompt.
Now, think about a devlopment project that touched just about
every system utility and plan the project so that it is
invisible to every using any system software.  I am so
glad that I went into that project stupid.

<snip>

Also, I was _the_ system accounting expert at DEC.  AFAICT, I was
the _only_ system accounting expert at DEC.  :-)

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 2729 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Need for KS10 diagnostics
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 00 11:48:39 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <91qa99$jmn$8@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <3A3A338C.8DE7FFA5@bartek.net> <91fpoi$li9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <877l4xogc6.fsf@cartman.azz.net> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012191315330.26548-100000@bony.umtec.com> <91ocrp$81m$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012191858240.261-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3A40150C.3C98C1F7@bartek.net> <3A4015AE.C7B75DA9@bartek.net> <lSU%5.183$LU6.65968@typhoon.aracnet.com>
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In article <lSU%5.183$LU6.65968@typhoon.aracnet.com>,
   "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:
>Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
>> Arthur Krewat wrote:
>>> 
>>> Looking at how things are going, and the TOPS-10 7.x monitors, I came
>>> to realize that Ethernet emulation would only supply DECNET, at the 
most.
>>> This helps, if I can contact it with my VAX, but I doubt it.
>
>> Come to think of it, this would help the disk structure access problem.
>> I could setup FTP on the VAX and have it go to TOPS10::[565,11]
>> Does VMS DECNET have any chance of talking to DECNET under TOPS-10?
>
>Another question would be, how well would Linux DECNET be able to handle
>TOPS-10 DECNET?  I know that Linux DECNET has trouble with PDP-11's 
running
>DECNET, although it's getting better.
>
>I'm guessing that DECNET on TOPS-10 is only Phase III, not Phase IV?  In 
any
>case I suspect that a VAX or Alpha running VMS wouldn't have any problem
>talking with it.

Nope.  TOPS-10 7.03 was Phase IV and certified as a Phase IV.
TOPS-20 RElease 6(I'm not sure that's the corret version)
was a Phase IV and certified as a Phase IV.  I also certified
both -10 and -20 at some point in time when they were Phase III.
I also finished up the Phase II certification for TOPS-20.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 2628 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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> Wait a minute...[emoticon realizing it has forgotten more]
> The first n-1 tapes of a BACKUP save set will not have an EOF
> at the end of them. The only EOF will be after the very
> last record on the very last tape. BACKUP's philosophy was
> to consider a save set as _one_ file.
>
> I think I've got that right. The stuff is documented in
> the front of BACKUP.MAC or BACKRS.MAC...at least it was
> on the 7.03 tape.
>
> I am no longer assuming that stuff was left alone with the
> 7.04 ship. These couldn't have had time to dele the stuff
> that seems to have disappeared.

Actually, Barb, I'm pretty sure that on a multi-reel saveset, there would
have been actual EOF marks at the end of each reel.
When writing the tape, when Backup would hit physical EOT, it'd write an
"End of tape" backup record to flag the restoring process to go to the next
reel. Now, by itself, the restoring Backup could certainly decide to stop
reading when it saw this "end of tape" record. It's just that it used
buffered I/O, and the monitor, not knowing what a Backup "end of tape"
record looked like, and not caring (on read) about the physical EOT marker,
could well go on filling buffers ahead of Backup. With a sufficiently large
buffer ring, that'd run the tape right off the supply reel.
The way we prevented these things from happening back in the bad old days
was to write an EOF mark (which really meant writing a logical EOT mark)
after Backup's "end of tape" record, which would stop the monitor from
trying to read additional buffers. Backup probably wouldn't notice this EOF
mark (or care about it) on read, because it'd stop itself with the "end of
tape" record it just got.
Logically, yes, a Backup save set would be one file on the tape, but on a
multireel set, an EOF mark does ensure that the drive doesn't dump vacuum on
you.
>
> /BAH
>
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.




Article 3102 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>,
>    Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> >Only because DEC managment wanted to get rid of its unloved child 10
> >in favor of the VAX. Same also the 4/7/9/15 vs the 11. Both were a
> >problem of will(*) not ability.
> >
> >(*) we make mini computers not mainframes, a.k.a. small computer think.
> 
> In addition to that small computer thinking, there was also
> the insistence that DEC was a hardware company.  The fact
> that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware
> was never very important to those that kept trying to keep
> it a hardware company.  Bell systematically got rid of every
> VP that had any software background.
I can echo this - in the mid 70s, after the recession began
sliding away, we had customers asking how DEC would protect
their software investment.  We, a bunch of central engineering
folks - including gordon bell - had looked at the future and
said that the software costs were going to out pace the hw
costs..moores law, kens law and all that...the price for 
semi memory was coming down and folks were starting to ask
for the ability to build an application once, have it move to
a new platform and run faster!  So, of course, being a HW
company dec did all the smart things....not.
> 
> /BAH
> 
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3098 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: JRST instruction semantics
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 11:50:28 GMT
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In article <GO466.11699$BI2.3030733@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
   Ric Werme <werme@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Sean Case <gsc@zip.com.au> writes:
>
>>The key to this is that effective address calculation never has any
>>(user-visible) side effects, so it doesn't matter if you have to start
>>over.
>
>Never say never!  One of my first TOPS-20 programs made an indirect
>list wind through more virtual memory than the system had physical.
>Then it referenced the chain.  If the system resumed the effective address
>calculation the instruction would have finished, starting from the
>beginning meant that it could not.
>
>This was on a KI-10 at the mill that ran TOPS-20.  Being a KI, it was
>entertaining watching how far effective address calculation got.  All
>in all, this was a highly user-visible side effect of a design
>decision.  :-)

<shudder>  You always were a diabolical programmer.  JMF marveled
at your coroutine package.

>
>That particular system was being used by PC board designers
>(PC=printed circuit, not personal computer!) working on automated
>layout.

Hah!  I'd forgotten that flavor of PC.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3209 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KC10 aka 2080
Date: 16 Jan 2001 14:45:16 -0500
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Mark Garrett <Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au> writes:

> There seems to be a mountain of info on the real nature of the Jupiter aka
> KC10 aka 2080 though out the tops20 sources introduced around 6.1

That was an earlier designation.  I have in my possession a number of binders
(in a nice chocolate color) with the words

	DECsystem-4050
	 Sales Training Seminar

printed on them.  (I got my first from Mark Lottor, at the 1988 DEC-20 Day
luncheon; the others came from Joe Dempster.)

So Jupiter was going to be a DEC-40.  Tops-40, perhaps?  After all, wasn't it
the sales/marketing folks who renamed the PDP-10 to be the DECsystem-10?

-- 
Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.com
  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless


Article 3076 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines
Date: 7 Jan 2001 05:32:17 GMT
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Frank da Cruz <fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
+---------------
| : >   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/e/dec20.txt
...
| Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a
| glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea
| what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end.  Comments / corrections /
| additions welcome.
+---------------

Well, one thing popped out at me in your MACRO-10 in-line literals example:

        CAIL B, FOO                     ; IF (b < foo) THEN
         PUSHJ P, [                     ;   BEGIN
                HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./]  ;     message = ".LT.";
                SETOM LESS              ;     less = -1;
                AOS (P)                 ;   END (skip around ELSE-part)
                POPJ P, ]               ; ELSE
         PUSHJ P, [                     ;   BEGIN
                HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./]  ;     message = ".GE.";
                SETZM LESS              ;     less = 0;
                POPJ P, ]               ;   END;
        PSOUT                           ; PRINT message;

As I recall, within such a literal "." was still the instruction that was
referencing the literal, so rather than use time-expensive PUSHJ/POPJ pairs
in such simple cases, usually this would be written like so:

        CAIL B, FOO                     ; IF (b < foo) THEN
         JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./]  ;     message = ".LT.";
                SETOM LESS              ;     less = -1;
                JRST .+2]               ; ELSE
         JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./]  ;     message = ".GE.";
                SETZM LESS              ;     less = 0;
                JRST .+1]               ; ENDIF
        PSOUT                           ; PRINT message;

or even the uglier and less-well-structured (and less-maintainable):

        CAIL B, FOO
         JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./]
                SETOM LESS
                JRST .+3]
        HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./]
        SETZM LESS
        PSOUT                           ; PRINT message;

However, the power of MACRO-10's *macros* was really where the magic lay!!
I found it relatively straightforward to write a set of simple Algol-like
(today we'd say "C-like", I guess) block-structuring macros to provide
IF/THEN/ELSE/FI, CASE/ESAC, WHILE/DO, BEGIN/END, etc., and LOCAL, which
allowed stack-allocated variables (including arrays) inside a BEGIN.
If you said:

        BEGIN			; allocate a stack frame
        LOCAL   A,B,<C,10>	; allocate variables within that frame
        ...
        MOVE    T0,A
        MOVEM   T0,C<5>         ; or maybe "c+5", I forget
        ...
        END

it defined "A", "B", and "C" as macros which were offsets indexed
on "S" (the stack pointer), and the whole thing expanding into:

        SUB     S,[XWD 14,14]
        ...
        MOVE    T0,0(S)
        MOVEM   T0,7(S)
        ...
        ADD     S,[XWD 14,14]

If pressed, I'll repeat the story of the incredibly complex byte-strip/
character-table-building macros I wrote for my FOCAL-10 (which was a
nearly-direct transliteration of Doug Wrege's FOCAL/F for the PDP-8)
which let you do FOCAL's "SORTC" and "SORTJ" lexical scanner/dispatching
functions in only *two* PDP-10 instructions. Oh, what the hell, here's
the short version:

Suppose you had a vector of routine addresses (a dispatch table) that you
wanted to branch through based on which "equivalence class" a character
is in. You could define the equivalence classes with the C.LST macro [once],
then whenever you needed to branch based on the character currently in
register "C", you did a "SORTJ":

lex_classes:  c.lst  <<(,[,{,"<">, <">",},],)>, <+,-,*,/>,
		      <<a,z>,<A,Z>,_,$,%>, <<0,9>>>
lex_jumps:    word   left_brackets
	      word   right_brackets
	      word   operators
	      word   identifiers
	      word   numbers
	      ...
	      ; next char is in "c", classify & dispatch
	      sortj lex_classes, lex_jumps
	       [...here if C in none of the classes in "lex_classes"...]

The SORTJ macro expanded into only two instructions:

	      ldb    t0, lex_classes
	      sojge  t0, @lex_jumps(t0)

The SORTC macro (FOCAL's other major parsing function) also expanded into
only two instructions, but since it was only concerned with testing eqv.
class membership and fetching the index, it didn't need a jump table -- the
SOJGE just jumped to ".+2" on success, leaving the (adjusted) index in T0.
[Or it may have used an SOJL, I forget. There's something tickling my memory
about SORTC being "backwards" in its skip behavior...]

The C.LST macro expanded into only one word, a byte-pointer, but in the
process of doing that it also defined just the right assembly-time symbols
so that just the right bits of the right character table [there could be
more than one, the macros automatically allocated a new one if you ran
out of bits in the current one] had the equivalence class index [with "0"
meaning "not in any class"] for each character in the right "byte strip".
[A "C.TAB" macro at the end of the program planted all of the merged
character tables at once.]

Since FOCAL is basically just a character-at-a-time interpreter, using
these techniques I was able to get a factor of *25* speedup in runtime
performance of the FOCAL interpreter on the KA-10, compared to FOCAL-8F
on a PDP-8/e [even though for low-level character/small-integer bashing
they were usually fairly close to the same speed!!].


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock, 31-2-510		rpw3@sgi.com
SGI Network Engineering		http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/
1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy.		Phone: 650-933-1673
Mountain View, CA  94043	PP-ASEL-IA


Article 3040 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip, starting (was Re: PC CRAP)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 11:39:52 GMT
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In article <3A5267C9.EC3D4EF0@bartek.dontspamme.net>,
   Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:
>Neil Franklin wrote:
<snip>

>> > If you're going to all that bother, making it look exactly like
>> > a KL isn't the way to go.  The KL really sucked.
>> 
>> Which is why I have decided to wire an KI like hardware and then make it
>> possible to run KL programs by having the processor UUO on KL
>> instructions and then have the UUO run an Macro program that simulates
>> the KL instructions.
>
>What sucked about the KL? Besides microcoding and other useless schemes
>that wouldn't fit into today's world of FPGA's.
<snip>

The cache wasn't write-thru.  Debugging the monitor was a PITA
since the CTY wasn't really a CTY.  Visual cues were gone
other than the external memory lights (it's so much faster
to take a look at the CPU's lights than type in locations
to the front end terminal and have it display via ASCII.
For really hairy symptoms, it was just another level
of complexity to have to deal with a front end system.  
Trying to figure out if the problem was a 20F problem or
a -10 problem or a 20F/PDP-10 problem was enough to make
a pro quit.  It was unsettling to leave bit pushing to 
some unknown mini-developer...especially the "unknown"
part.

The HSC development had the same problems.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3075 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
Date: 7 Jan 2001 04:47:58 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA
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Joe Smith <inwap@best.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Erno Palonheimo  <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
| >> Cisco came from people who worked at DEC.
| >
| >Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all
| >of their software development until early-to-mid '90s?
| 
| The people who created 'cisco systems' came from Stanford, where, as
| students, they had plenty of exposure to the TOPS-20 systems running there.
+---------------

Not only that, but the original Super-FOONLY (PDP-10 architecture CPU
implemented in ECL gates) was at Stanford, and IIRC there was quite a
bit of controversy around that time over just how much of DEC's first KL
design was "borrowed" from the FOONLY (and on the flip side, how much
help from DEC the Stanford folks did or didn't get).

A more-or-less neutral and/or more complete re-telling of that story
would be appreciated... Anyone?


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock, 31-2-510		rpw3@sgi.com
SGI Network Engineering		http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/
1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy.		Phone: 650-933-1673
Mountain View, CA  94043	PP-ASEL-IA


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From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
Date: 8 Jan 2001 11:47:12 GMT
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StrangeBrew  <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
+---------------
| What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL
| in march of 69.
+---------------

Are you sure you don't mean *1979*?  We got a fairly-low serial number
*KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that.
And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969.

But I don't really know the exact chronology (which is one of the reasons
I asked for someone to fill in some details). The Jargon File entry
<URL:http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Foonly.html> says:

    "ARPA funding for both the Super Foonly and the new operating system
    was cut in 1974. Most of the design team went to DEC and contributed
    greatly to the design of the PDP-10 model KL10."

I suppose if one looked in the DEC-10 DECUS Proceedings for the right
year (anybody got an index online?) one could find the talk the Stanford
guys gave on Foonly...


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock, 31-2-510		rpw3@sgi.com
SGI Network Engineering		http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/
1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy.		Phone: 650-933-1673
Mountain View, CA  94043	PP-ASEL-IA


Article 3099 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org>
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes:
> StrangeBrew  <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> +---------------
> | What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL
> | in march of 69.
> +---------------
> 
> Are you sure you don't mean *1979*?  We got a fairly-low serial number
> *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that.
> And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969.

According to <URL:http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt>, the first KL
was announced in 1974.

The KI seems to have been announced in 1971 or 1972, see
<URL:http://pdp10.nocrew.org/cpu/ki10-year.html>.

>     "ARPA funding for both the Super Foonly and the new operating system
>     was cut in 1974. Most of the design team went to DEC and contributed
>     greatly to the design of the PDP-10 model KL10."

Here's another quote, from "We Call Them 10's - A Brief History of
36-bit Computing at CompuServe" by Alexander B. Trevor:

       But by 1976 a more pressing problem arose.  DEC had released
   the KL-10, but it seemed prone to overheating (ECL does generate a
   lot of heat). Dr.  Goltz felt we needed a faster processor, but the
   KL was unsuitable.  We looked at Foonly's F1, but were uneasy about
   their ability to actually produce machines.  So, with two of our
   best engineers, Doug Chinnock and Wilson Mowbray, John Goltz set up
   an R&D center in Tucson, Arizona, to build a better 36-bit
   computer.  In 18 months, they had several large boards, microcode
   that avoided all the DEC patents, but were still a good year from
   having a production machine.  Jeff Wilkins was running short on
   enthusiasm (and cash) for the project, and it looked like DEC had
   really solved the KL-10 heat problem with the DEC-System 20
   configuration. Not only that, but the price of the 2050 was at
   least $100K lower than the 1090.  Internal memory and devices on
   RH-20's seemed not only more efficient, but saved us from having to
   add cache sweeps to our monitor. If we could run our operating
   system on this machine, it might make more sense than finishing the
   "JRG-1" processor.

-- 
http://lars.nocrew.org/


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Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> 
> rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes:
> > StrangeBrew  <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> > +---------------
> > | What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL
> > | in march of 69.
> > +---------------
> >
> > Are you sure you don't mean *1979*?  We got a fairly-low serial number
> > *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that.
> > And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969.
I started at dec in Jan of 69.  In March I asked a question that got me
into a couple of interesting discussions with 10 land.  I asked if 
"we" (dec) were doing anything with ECL.  At that time, it seemed that
the design of the KL had started, at least looking into an ECL machine.
I first worked with ECL gear in the 67/68 time frame at my previous
employers facilities.  I don't know when fairchild and others
announced their ecl lines, but dec was at the forefront of technology
deals in those days.  In 79, 10K ecl was around, and 100K was rumored.

I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a
bunch 
of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, I was on 1-3 at the time
and the 10 folks were either moving or had moved to marlboro.

Maynard had to have a power upgrade to power up the first KL in 
Maynard, I do recall that!! and that was maybe around 72/73.

Barb, you have a better memory for those dates than me, I was 
sliding from 8 land over to the newly formed, Tom Stockebrand
led, DECComm11 group.
> 
> According to <URL:http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt>, the first KL
> was announced in 1974.
> 
> The KI seems to have been announced in 1971 or 1972, see
> <URL:http://pdp10.nocrew.org/cpu/ki10-year.html>.
> 
> >     "ARPA funding for both the Super Foonly and the new operating system
> >     was cut in 1974. Most of the design team went to DEC and contributed
> >     greatly to the design of the PDP-10 model KL10."
> 
> Here's another quote, from "We Call Them 10's - A Brief History of
> 36-bit Computing at CompuServe" by Alexander B. Trevor:
> 
>        But by 1976 a more pressing problem arose.  DEC had released
>    the KL-10, but it seemed prone to overheating (ECL does generate a
>    lot of heat). Dr.  Goltz felt we needed a faster processor, but the
>    KL was unsuitable.  We looked at Foonly's F1, but were uneasy about
>    their ability to actually produce machines.  So, with two of our
>    best engineers, Doug Chinnock and Wilson Mowbray, John Goltz set up
>    an R&D center in Tucson, Arizona, to build a better 36-bit
>    computer.  In 18 months, they had several large boards, microcode
>    that avoided all the DEC patents, but were still a good year from
>    having a production machine.  Jeff Wilkins was running short on
>    enthusiasm (and cash) for the project, and it looked like DEC had
>    really solved the KL-10 heat problem with the DEC-System 20
>    configuration. Not only that, but the price of the 2050 was at
>    least $100K lower than the 1090.  Internal memory and devices on
>    RH-20's seemed not only more efficient, but saved us from having to
>    add cache sweeps to our monitor. If we could run our operating
>    system on this machine, it might make more sense than finishing the
>    "JRG-1" processor.
> 
> --
> http://lars.nocrew.org/


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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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In article <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net>,
   StrangeBrew <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
<snip>

>I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a
>bunch 
>of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, 

I've been trying to remember just where building 1 was.  I've
discovered that my memory of the locations are all based
on which footbridges I had to take to get there from 12-1.
I do remember one time looking out a window knowing that 
the building I saw was the one I had to get to but, other
than hiring Superman, I had no idea how to get from here
to there.

One of the myths that new hires were told was the metric
that supervisors used.  An interviewee was led to some
place in the mill and left.  If the interviewee could
find his/her way back to a particular office, s/he was
hired on the spot.  And no blindfolds were used.

/BAH


>I was on 1-3 at the time
>and the 10 folks were either moving or had moved to marlboro.
>
<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3131 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>In article <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net>,
>   StrangeBrew <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
><snip>

>>I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a
>>bunch 
>>of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, 

>I've been trying to remember just where building 1 was. 

You and I never had much call to go there.  Hmm.  My memory is getting
fuzzy too!  Ah, my map reminds me.  Building 1 paralleled building 3
and is next to the mill pond.  You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5,
whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.)
Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_,
presumably a fire protection design.  They were also on the north
side, and the wind really swirled around in January.

>One of the myths that new hires were told was the metric
>that supervisors used.  An interviewee was led to some
>place in the mill and left.  If the interviewee could
>find his/her way back to a particular office, s/he was
>hired on the spot.  And no blindfolds were used.

On my first day, I was afraid that afer orientation I'd be expected to
find my office.  Fortunately, someone sent you to rescue me.  For my
first two weeks there my map was my most important possession.  After
I got good getting to my office from either buldings 5 or 12 I started
trying to take a different route each day.

IIRC, the KI-10 running Tops-20 I mentioned a few posts ago was in 1-1.
--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 3143 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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in article j%_66.12309$BI2.3368293@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net, Ric Werme at
werme@mediaone.net wrote on 1/10/01 7:14 AM:

> You and I never had much call to go there.  Hmm.  My memory is getting
> fuzzy too!  Ah, my map reminds me.  Building 1 paralleled building 3
> and is next to the mill pond.  You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5,
> whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.)
> Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_,
> presumably a fire protection design.  They were also on the north
> side, and the wind really swirled around in January.

Yes, you did have to go outside to get from
the floor to the stairwell at (at least one end) of building 1.

And don't forget the tunnel from 1 to 3 as well (which
I used a lot, because I spent some time in a terrible office on 3-1).

dgc



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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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In article <B6827370.3A1C%dgc@spies.com>,
   David G Conroy <dgc@spies.com> wrote:
>in article j%_66.12309$BI2.3368293@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net, Ric Werme at
>werme@mediaone.net wrote on 1/10/01 7:14 AM:
>
>> You and I never had much call to go there.  Hmm.  My memory is getting
>> fuzzy too!  Ah, my map reminds me.  Building 1 paralleled building 3
>> and is next to the mill pond.  You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5,
>> whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.)
>> Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_,
>> presumably a fire protection design.  They were also on the north
>> side, and the wind really swirled around in January.
>
>Yes, you did have to go outside to get from
>the floor to the stairwell at (at least one end) of building 1.
>
>And don't forget the tunnel from 1 to 3 as well 

Was that the tunnel on 3-6?

>(which
>I used a lot, because I spent some time in a terrible office on 3-1).

There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or
7 inches higher than the other end.  I don't think I ever got down
to 3-1.  My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3,
across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got
down to 5-0, the home of System 40.

Wasn't 3-1 the home of some other little businesses until we
bought the Mill?


/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or
>7 inches higher than the other end.  I don't think I ever got down
>to 3-1.  My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3,
>across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got
>down to 5-0, the home of System 40.

Head down the 3-5 hall away from 12, go past the TTY room and some
vending machines, down a few steps (into 4-?), zig right, zag left, up
some steps to the tunnel to 5-3, stairs down to 5-B (Below pond
level), past Salvage to the computer room.  And that was located before
the sewer connection.  Once in a while a saw a cat down there.  Never
saw a rat.
--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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In article <3A5FAEA8.82B8506A@bellatlantic.net>,
   StrangeBrew <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <Quv76.12568$BI2.3518050@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
>>    Ric Werme <werme@mediaone.net> wrote:
>> >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>> >
>> >>There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or
>> >>7 inches higher than the other end.  I don't think I ever got down
>> >>to 3-1.  My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3,
>> >>across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got
>> >>down to 5-0, the home of System 40.
>> >
>> >Head down the 3-5 hall away from 12, go past the TTY room and some
>> >vending machines, down a few steps (into 4-?),
>> 
>> Yup.  This is the point where my brain stops.  :-)
>> 
>> > ...zig right, zag left, up
>> >some steps to the tunnel to 5-3,
>> 
>> Was that an very long angled tunnel?
>> 
>> > ...stairs down to 5-B (Below pond
>> >level), past Salvage to the computer room.  And that was located before
>> >the sewer connection.
>> 
>> I never went further than the computer room.
>> 
>> >  Once in a while a saw a cat down there.
>> 
>> Really?  I never did.
>> 
>> > Never saw a rat.
>> 
>> I did but they tended to be the two-legged flavor of critter.
>> 
>> /BAH
>Thank you all for the brain refresh! I had a bench on 5-4, 
>a desk on 5-3, and office on 1-2, an office on 5-3, an office
>on 1-2, a cube in Marlboro.  

Then DEC invented the musical office game.

>I could almost recall those 
>buildings and routes, but now, thanks to this thread, I can
>recall all of the routes, the strange paths, sheez, that was
>a maze!!

Well, I'm jealous.  I have a feeling that only my feet know
those paths for sure.  I still can't get past the 3-5
terminal room :-).  I must have teleported down to 5-0
every day because I simply cannot remember stairs.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3204 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
From: David G Conroy <dgc@spies.com>
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The routes I always had trouble with
were the ones that involved buildings 6a and 6b (the buildings
where you sometimes had to go down a floor and up a
floor to get from one end of a floor to another) and the
associated spiral-ish wooden staircase.



Article 3175 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
From: David G Conroy <dgc@spies.com>
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>> Yes, you did have to go outside to get from
>> the floor to the stairwell at (at least one end) of building 1.
>> 
>> And don't forget the tunnel from 1 to 3 as well
> 
> Was that the tunnel on 3-6?

Nope. There was a tunnel which started in mid 3-1 and
ended in the central stairwell of building 1. You could walk through
it, but it was full of giant pipes that said things like "hot
water return" on them.

dgc



Article 3115 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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StrangeBrew  <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL
> in march of 69.

rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes:
> Are you sure you don't mean *1979*?  We got a fairly-low serial number
> *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that.

Introduction years (from memory, may be off):

PDP-6, 166 processor, system modules: 1964
PDP-10, KA10 processor, flip-chip modules (mostly R- and B- series): 1968
PDP-10, KI10 processor, TTL flip-chip modules (M- series): 1972
PDP-10, KL10 processor, ECL flip-chip moduels (M-85xx): 1975
PDP-10, KS10 processor, TTL & AMD 2901 bit slice (M- series): 1979

I agree that it seems very unlikely that any of DEC's hardware design
efforts in 1969 were directed toward what became the KL10.

There are a lot of variants of the KL10 processor:
  KL10-PA:  Model A, 1280 word microcode store, single section only
  KL10-PV:  Model B, 2048 word microcode store, supports muliple sections
  KL10-PW:  MCA-25 upgraded Model B, more cache and PTEs (1095, 2065)

The -PA and -PV processors were offered with and without cache, and with
and without internal channels.  The DECsystem-1080 and -1088 did not use
internal channels; all other KL10-based DEC-10s had them.  The
DECSYSTEM-2040 did not have cache, but all KL10-based DEC-10s and all
other DEC-20s did.  The 2040 could be upgraded to a 2050 by installing
the MCA20 cache upgrade.

> And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969.

Motorola MECL-I ECL existed in 1968.  It was not nearly as "easy to use"
as 10K ECL.  I'm not sure when 10K was introduced.


Article 3118 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:30:09 -0500
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Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> There are a lot of variants of the KL10 processor:
>   KL10-PA:  Model A, 1280 word microcode store, single section only
>   KL10-PV:  Model B, 2048 word microcode store, supports muliple
>             sections
>   KL10-PW:  MCA-25 upgraded Model B, more cache and PTEs (1095, 2065)
> 
> The -PA and -PV processors were offered with and without cache, and
> with and without internal channels.

   Why on Earth would anyone buy a KL sans cache?  From tests I ran
back when I was at ADP (and I'm really beginning to rue my decision to
"will" the body of my notes to one of the other chaps there when I
left!) a KL running without cache was slower than a KA (which really
points out that the -10 was memory-bound).

   Interestingly, tests using the timing diagnostics pointed up similar
results with the KI-10.  Most of the memories we had at the time were
the 1 microsecond MG-10s (along with a smattering of MH-10s);  when we
received our first Ampex ARM-10LS (semiconductor ECC memory using, if I
recall, 1k x 4 chips), I ran performance tests using both KLs and
KIs.  The KIs benefited more than the KLs from the 250nS speed
improvemnt of the MOS memories.

   It was all for naught, of course.  The fast memories went onto the
KLs where they'd do the least good (save to cut down on the number of
memory boxes per system).  The best memory architecture I've ever seen
done on a -10 (a KL) was a 4-way-interleaved, one K-bus-to-each-box,
system done up around ARM-10LXes (of 1 Mw apiece); the thing was a
work of art.  I forget who did the work on it, but he has my
congratulations for it.


-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 3119 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:13:49 -0800
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On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Carl R. Friend wrote:
>    Why on Earth would anyone buy a KL sans cache?

It was cheap, that's why.  The 2040 was originally positioned as the el
cheapo entry model KL with 128K; essentially to replace the KA.  It ran
TOPS-20, since TOPS-20 had a swappable monitor and so would run on
machines too small to run TOPS-10.

Marketing thought that people would buy these as COBOL boxes.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.



Article 3167 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:21:59 -0500
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Rich Alderson wrote:

> The first DEC-20 at the University of Chicago was a 2040; I think the
> cache was installed after about a year and a half.  There hadn't been
> any DEC stuff at the Comp Center up to that point, so no comparisons
> were available.

   Thereby explaining the lapse of time betwixt purchase and "upgrade".

> The operator had heard the systems people talking about [a 2040 to
> 2050 upgrade] for quite some time, and authoritatively responded [to
> a user's query about the downtime], "Cash."

   That's right up there with "No Czechs cached"!  Thanks for the
anecdote and the good laugh it provoked!

   The availability of the 2040 might have had a lot to do with a
purchase of one, but I suspect the price/performance mark was rather
off the main.  One could have done much better with an old KI system
(or even a KA-based one) for the price.  And A/C, and power, if not
floor-space, especially if one could self-maintain such a system.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 3170 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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Rich Alderson wrote in message ...
>"Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com> writes:
>
>> Did any [cacheless 2040s] actually get sold?  And, if any
were, how fast did
>> they get fitted with caches?  I suspect Marketing muffed
the call.
>
>The first DEC-20 at the University of Chicago was a 2040;
> I think the cache was installed after about a year and a
half.
> There hadn't been any DEC stuff at the Comp Center up
> to that point, so no comparisons were available.


The lab where I worked in 1977 also bought a 2040, and
it worked well in a 200 person government research lab,
though there was also an RJE to a 6600 and lots of minis,
plus it took time for folks to get used to using time
sharing.
The attitude among management and many of the 70+
scientists was that support personnel were the ones to
actually touch keyboards. We did have 384k words of
memory and that made a difference to performance over
the usual 256k.

>
>I know of one other 2040, at Citibank, the subject of an
> amusing story told by my ex-brother-in-law (who consulted
> there as a teenager):  After the announcement had gone
> out that the system was going down for upgrade to a 2050,
> some customer sent a message to the on-duty operator
> asking what the difference was. The operator had heard
> the systems people talking about it for quite some time,
>and authoritatively responded, "Cash."
>

When we decided to upgrade, people were solidly convinced
of timesharing and an upgrade was needed. Field Circus was
in doing a regular provocative maintenance (PM). The tech
noted that the upgrade kit was in and suggested doing the
upgrade at the end of the PM time. He did, rebooted
the system and everything worked fine.

An hour later, a scientist came running to me saying
that one of his analysis runs that usually took 1/2 hour of
CPU
time had finished in 15 minutes, so there had to be
something
wrong with the system. I then told him what had happened.
This
provided a demo that cache on the 20 provided a 2:1 speed
increase for a scientific / Fortran environment.

                    Don






Article 3070 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:49:27 -0500
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Peter da Silva wrote:
> 
> In article <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com>,
> Carl R. Friend <carl.friend@prescienttech.com> wrote:
> >   NO, it wasn't done on a "20"; it was done on a -10.  "20"s didn't
> >exist at the time (actually they never did, but that's another
> >story).
> 
> I most humbly beg your pardon.
> 
> http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/xkleten.txt

   I've seen the memo.  Is XKLeTen still in operation?

   In any event, I suspect I'd better qualify my comment above.

   There was never such a machine as a PDP-20; they were, to a one,
rebadged -10s running the TOPS-20 operating system.  For instance,
the DECSYSTEM-2065 is a repackaged KL-10E in a "Corporate Cabinet"
with MOS memory running on an internal "S" bus.  The DECSYSTEM-2020
runs TOPS-20 on KS-10 iron.  I do not believe that anyone at DEC
ever referred to a PDP-20 (the line dropped dead at 16 with three
non-starts).

   PDP-10s, on the other hand, originated with the original PDP-10
(later rebadged "KA-10") and ended up with the latter-day KL-10s
and ran the -10 "Monitor" (TOPS-10 was a back-fit to make DEC's
markerters happy and, according to rumour, enraged certain folks).

   Hopefully that clarifies my (perhaps warped) view of things.

   Thanks for explaining who "F" is.

   Cheers.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


Article 3072 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com>
X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false.
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Date: 05 Jan 2001 23:55:27 -0800
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"Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@prescienttech.com> writes:
>    There was never such a machine as a PDP-20; they were, to a one,
> rebadged -10s running the TOPS-20 operating system.  For instance,
> the DECSYSTEM-2065 is a repackaged KL-10E in a "Corporate Cabinet"
> with MOS memory running on an internal "S" bus.

Actually the machines with "internal" MOS memory run the memory on the
"X bus".  It's logically the same as the "S bus", but electrically
different.  When upgrading to the MF20 or MG20 from earlier memories,
it is necessary to replace one or both S bus translator boards with
X bus translators.

Also, while there was not a PDP-20, DEC did sometimes refer to the
corporate cabinet KL10 as a KL20.  It was not common usage, and I haven't
seen it on any engineering drawings, but it did appear in a few manuals,
and in _Computer Engineering_.

> The DECSYSTEM-2020
> runs TOPS-20 on KS-10 iron.

There were order numbers in the super-secret Modules and Options List
for the "1020", which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10.  However, that's
just an ordering number and AFAIK they were never called DECsystem-1020.


Article 3127 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 09:35:20 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <93heha$s6l$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net>,
   Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
>> 
>> When did DEC start a Unix?  I don't remember much about that
>> other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was
>> volunteered to do DECnet certification.
>> 
>I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil.
>So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure...
>
Nope.  I had to stop working in 1987..or maybe it was 1986.
Ken was still there. I was doing those &^%&DECnet certifications
for Phase II, III, and IV.  I think that covered the years 1982
through 1986 (7.03 was Phase IV).  Certification covered Ultrix
but not that other Unix (whatever the hell that unix was).  I 
never could get DEC's unix business straight in my head.

I think it was after I stopped working that JMF did SMP in 
System V Unix.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3159 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Date: 11 Jan 2001 19:44:20 GMT
Organization: University of Scranton
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Message-ID: <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>
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In article <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,
 bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:
|>
|> Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's.
|> I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84).
|> 

A quick grep of the Ultrix 3.1 sources reveals no Digital Copyright
earlier than 1984 so I would guess that's a pretty safe bet on when
they started their own development on it.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


Article 3161 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: ciswired@sherrill.kiva.net (Cornerstone Information Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Date: 11 Jan 2001 16:01:17 -0500
Organization: Kiva Networking
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <93l6ut$npi$1@sherrill.kiva.net>
References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sherrill.kiva.net
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In article <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,
Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote:
>In article <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,
> bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:
>|>
>|> Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's.
>|> I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84).
>|> 
>
>A quick grep of the Ultrix 3.1 sources reveals no Digital Copyright
>earlier than 1984 so I would guess that's a pretty safe bet on when
>they started their own development on it.

No, DEC did UNIX development well before 1984.  We initially ran
V7/m on our 11/44 in 1981.

V7/m was V7 plus DECs mods to allow it to run on the 11/44, RL01/2
support, etc.  It came from a group (whos name I've forgotten) within
DEC.  Key people @ DEC involved were Fred Canter and Armando Stettner.

V7/m preceded Ultrix.

greg
greg@ciswired.com


Article 3176 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 08:57:05 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 28
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In article <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,
   bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>In article <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,
> bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:
>|>
>|> Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's.
>|> I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84).
>|> 
>
>A quick grep of the Ultrix 3.1 sources reveals no Digital Copyright
>earlier than 1984 so I would guess that's a pretty safe bet on when
>they started their own development on it.

Nope.  You can't rely on the copyright dates.  84 was around
the time that the edict came down from on high that copyrights
had to be in everything.  The mini people were a lot laxer
about copyrighting sources than the -10 people.  When Tape
Prep did all the keying in of sources for the mini people, we
would put in copyrights for them.  Some programmers would
immediately take them out.  I don't know why, but the -10 
people were more conciencious(sp?) about that legal stuff.

/BAH


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


Article 3162 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>
From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>
Date: 12 Jan 2001 04:36:19 +0800
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> >I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil.
> >So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure...

I think it was said here, but to reiterate.

What he said was that Unix was like a russian truck. And that anyone
pushing it for 'serious' work was selling snake oil.

Or words to that effect.

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.


Article 3168 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Date: 11 Jan 2001 22:09:26 -0500
Organization: Unknown
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In article <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> >I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil.
>> >So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure...
>
>I think it was said here, but to reiterate.
>
>What he said was that Unix was like a russian truck. And that anyone
>pushing it for 'serious' work was selling snake oil.
>
>Or words to that effect.
>
>-- 
>Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
>+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
>                                             West Australia 6076
>Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.

K.O. made a number of interesting quotes over the years.
Some were often misunderstood.


"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their
home."
		-- Ken Olson, President of DEC, World Future Society
		   Convention, 1977

I believe K.O. was in favor of an information utility supplying
computing services, backups, storage... to individuals with smart
terminals.   Kind of timesharing with the echos of CompuServe,
and the current Network Computer idea.

  
  	One of the questions that comes up all the time is: How
  enthusiastic is our support for UNIX?
  	Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many
  years ago.  Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines.
  Ten percent of our VAXs are going for UNIX use.  UNIX is a simple
  language, easy to understand, easy to get started with.  It's great for
  students, great for somewhat casual users, and it's great for
  interchanging programs between different machines.  And so, because of
  its popularity in these markets, we support it.  We have good UNIX on
  VAX and good UNIX on PDP-11s.
  	It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will
  run out of things they can do with UNIX. They'll want a real system and
  will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming.
  	With UNIX, if you're looking for something, you can easily and
  quickly check that small manual and find out that it's not there.  With
  VMS, no matter what you look for -- it's literally a five-foot shelf of
  documentation -- if you look long enough it's there.  That's the
  difference -- the beauty of UNIX is it's simple; and the beauty of VMS
  is that it's all there.


		-- Ken Olsen, president of DEC, DECWORLD Vol. 8 No. 5, 1984


I think this one's really interesting.  And... pretty accurate.
You can replace Unix with Linux and VMS with WinNT and see Microsoft
saying this same thing.

'course the five-foot shelf of docs are things like Windows Undocumented
secrets.

  
  "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make
  any difference if it takes a while to fix it."
  		-- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988
  

These three quotes are part of the MOTD on my FreeBSD 4.2 system.

--Bill

-- 
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
Brainbench MVP           | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
Unix Sys.Admin.          | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour"


Article 3173 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic)
References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net>
     <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>
     <93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <cTu76.428$5y1.27147@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
From: Ric Werme <werme@mediaone.net>
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"The Bakers" <nospam@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>"Bill Pechter" <bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote in message
>news:93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org...
>>
>>   "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make
>>   any difference if it takes a while to fix it."
>>   -- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988
>>

>Perhaps got TCP/IP confused with TOPS-10.

I don't think so.  DEC stuck with DECnet and (later) OSI protocols far too
long.  Meanwhile, TCP/IP started making serious inroads in Europe, working
TCP/IP code was available for cheap from BSD, and OSI was far too complex
and most implementations were far from complete.

--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete


Article 3184 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: dkw@hera.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Date: 12 Jan 2001 17:23:01 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University, Waltham MA
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In article <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net>,
 Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> writes:
|> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
|> > 
|> >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
|> > 
|> > When did DEC start a Unix?  I don't remember much about that
|> > other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was
|> > volunteered to do DECnet certification.
|> > 
|> I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil.
|> So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure...

DEC was selling Ultrix (I think 2.?) when I joined around 1987.

KO gave a talk at (the site across the street from LTN) in 91 or so, 
and said that one of the issues he was thinking about was whether to
put Ultrix on the Alpha.  We strongly urged him to.  I think that
DECstations using MIPs chips  which ran Ultrix but not VMS had been
out for a couple of years then.

I think it was earlier than that that KO called Unix "snake oil."

-- 
--David Wittenberg
dkw@cs.brandeis.edu


Article 3188 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> Wasn't there ultrix on the 11, ultrix 32 on the vax, ultrix on the mips,
> and then osf on the mips and vax and alpha?  Isn't OSF (nee ultrix) 
> what turned into tru 64????
> bob

There was Ultrix-11 (PDP-11), Ultrix-32 (VAX), and Ultrix for MIPS (don't 
recall the name).  The last OS to support MIPS was Ultrix V4.5 (Y2K stuff).
On the Alpha you had OSF/1, then DEC Unix, and now Tru64 Unix.

On the PDP-11 you also had various non-DEC Unix's (including of course AT&T
Unix), and BSD 2.11 is still actively maintianed.

On VAX you've also got the original BSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD.

On Alpha you've also got Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, and you had OpenBSD.

If all that isn't confusing I don't know what is!  Of course none of the
above touches the question of weather or not a specific model is supported
:^)  Also I've probably missed a few Unix variants in the above :^)

				Zane


Article 3192 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>
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Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
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			    <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net>
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hg/jb wrote:
> 
> Wasn't there ultrix on the 11, ultrix 32 on the vax, ultrix on the mips,

There was an Ultrix-11 for (some of) the PDP-11s.
There was Ultrix-32 (but it always seemed to be just
Ultrix near the end) for VAX and MIPS (the CDs were labelled
something like ULTRIX/VAX and ULTRIX/RISC so you could
keep them apart).

> and then osf on the mips and vax and alpha?

I don't think OSF/1 *ever* ran on a VAX. It did run 
internally on MIPS and it shipped on Alpha. I think
the problems arose because (some) customers had been
lead to believe that OSF/1 (i.e. the future) was going
to be supported on MIPS and made plans accordingly 
(like buying more MIPS boxes). When OSF/1 never made 
it to MIPS these customers were apparently none
too pleased.

>                               Isn't OSF (nee ultrix)
> what turned into tru 64????

OSF/1 turned into DEC Unix and thence into Tru64.
AFAIK, OSF/1 never had anything to do with 
Ultrix and presumably shared no code with it.
OSF/1 was initially devreloped outside of DEC
(although I think DEC sponsored the project in
some way). DEC was one of the few (possibly the
only!) vendors to make use of OSF/1 once
it came about.

This is all from old (and not recently
refreshed) data cells ...

Antonio

-- 

---------------
Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org


Article 3200 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
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StrangeBrew wrote:
> I seem to recall that VMS was branded as unix compliant
> or compatible at one time, maybe that is a brain cramp tho.

Your brain is working perfectly well. OpenVMS did
receive the X/Open branding (I think that was the
one). IIRC it was the first (and possibly only)
non-Unix OS to receive that. 

That was aout the time that the VMS -> OpenVMS
name translation started.

Antonio

-- 

---------------
Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org


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From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
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Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys?  (historic)
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"antonio.carlini" wrote:
> 
> StrangeBrew wrote:
> > I seem to recall that VMS was branded as unix compliant
> > or compatible at one time, maybe that is a brain cramp tho.
> 
> Your brain is working perfectly well. OpenVMS did
> receive the X/Open branding (I think that was the
> one). IIRC it was the first (and possibly only)
> non-Unix OS to receive that.
> 
> That was aout the time that the VMS -> OpenVMS
> name translation started.

I recently took an application I wrote using C++, sockets and
POSIX threads, and ported it to VMS 7.2 w/DEC C. Besides file
permissions and naming conventions, I had no problem
running the exact same code as I did under Solaris,
FreeBSD, etc.

All in the name of an experiment. 

art k.


Article 3236 of alt.sys.pdp10:
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Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> In article <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
>    inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote:
> >In article <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca>,
> >Ben Franchuk  <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>Joe Smith wrote:
> >>> No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it.
> >>>         -Joe
> >>I don't buy that argument because a follow on 36 bit processor
> >>would be a PDP-36? and not a PDP-10 any more.
> >
> >No, the definition of a "follow-on 36-bit processor" is one that executes
> >the PDP-10 instruction set, is at least 5