Article 1317 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!usenet From: Vance Socci Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: Sun, 05 Nov 95 22:43:08 PDT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vsocci.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage In Article, werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) > billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: > > > I know > >the dec10 I used in college had a PDP8 controlling its terminal lines, > > There was a PDP-8 comm box, the DS10(?) but it only handled a synchronous > line to remote stations (DN82(?)) and other PDP-10s. Sorry about the (?), > but memory is getting fuzzy. And I worked on them! > -- Ric, how could you forget the good old 680/I, which was interfaced to the -10 via a DC-68 interface thru the I/O bus and could support 100 lines? Was designed to be a lower cost to the original /RCC designed DC-10, which could support up to 64 hardwired or dataset lines. The 680/I had a PDP-8/I which ran around and assembled the bits for all the lines (scanned them); the DC-10 was called the data line scanner because that's what it did. Thus, the module SCNSER's name . . . /evs Article 1321 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!usenet From: "Carl J. Appellof" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 6 Nov 1995 17:31:03 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com> References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chmist.zso.dec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; I; 32bit) werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) wrote: >billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: > >>A fair number of pdp-10s had PDP-8s of some sort as front ends. > >Sigh. No. The KL10 was frontended by a PDP-11/40, the KS10 by a Intel 8080, >I believe. The KA10 and KI10 were able to stand by themselves, noble machines >that they were. > Maybe there are some crossed wires here. The KL10 and KS10 were the only -10s that REQUIRED a little front-end computer to provide console services. But KIs often used front-end PDP-11s called DN87 to provide terminal lines and other remote services. *I* call these systems "front-ends" too. An earlier version of the front-end, called the DN92, I think, was based on a PDP-8. Earlier -10s used a hardwired device called a DC10 to provide the terminal connectivity. I'm not sure which ones of these could have been used by a KA10. -- Carl Appellof not speaking for Digital Equipment Corporation Article 1322 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!mercury.near.net!noc.near.net!das-news2.harvard.edu!spdcc!om3!gwes From: gwes@oat.com (Geoff Steckel) Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: <1995Nov6.175009.14585@oat.com> Organization: Omnivore Technology References: Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 17:50:09 GMT Lines: 27 In article werme@zk3.dec.com writes: >billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: > >>A fair number of pdp-10s had PDP-8s of some sort as front ends. > >Sigh. No. The KL10 was frontended by a PDP-11/40, the KS10 by a Intel 8080, >I believe. The KA10 and KI10 were able to stand by themselves, noble machines >that they were. > >> I know >>the dec10 I used in college had a PDP8 controlling its terminal lines, Much as I hate to disagree with Ric, there were PDP-8 terminal interfaces. They had a number of advantages over the DC-10, if you were willing to do some -truly- -incredibly- twisty real-time PDP-8 assembly programming. They emulated UARTs in SOFTWARE?!?! They could auto-baud-detect and change line speed; they could deal with BREAK. They were the only things around which -could- do that on a -10 at the time (1970). (At least that anyone could afford). At ISC in Braintree, we finally retired the last one about 1978-9. -- I own the company. Opinions worth what you paid for them. Geoff Steckel gwes@oat.com Omnivore Technology 127 Cornell St. Newton, MA 02162 (617) 332-9252 Article 1326 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!usenet From: gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 02:50:25 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net> References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> Reply-To: gagner@clark.net NNTP-Posting-Host: gagner-ppp.clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) wrote: >billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: > >> >Will programs (such as decwars) run on a pdp-8 emulator (if I could find >> >the tops-10 operating system which would run on a pdp-8) (assuming that >> >tops-10 will run on a pdp-8? > >> Sigh. No. The PDP-8 and PDP-10 are completely different architectures. >> Abnout the only thing they have in common besides the PDP monicker is that >> they both run TECO. > >>A fair number of pdp-10s had PDP-8s of some sort as front ends. > >Sigh. No. The KL10 was frontended by a PDP-11/40, the KS10 by a Intel 8080, >I believe. The KA10 and KI10 were able to stand by themselves, noble machines >that they were. > >> I know >>the dec10 I used in college had a PDP8 controlling its terminal lines, > >There was a PDP-8 comm box, the DS10(?) but it only handled a synchronous >line to remote stations (DN82(?)) and other PDP-10s. Sorry about the (?), >but memory is getting fuzzy. And I worked on them! Well, as I recall it, the DC72 was a PDP-8 based "remote controller," and you tied terminals off it. You could tie as many terminals as the PDP-8 bus could handle (within the limits of the 9.6 Kb line that drove the typical DC72, although some had higher speed lines, mostly in the military). The DC72 was a real kludge, and didn't speak DECNET, but a precursor protocol (sort of). Even the DN8x DECNET wasn't PDP-11 DECNET, just to make compatibility expensive, but what the DC72 spoke was even less so. The DC72 could be, but rarely was, direct connected to a -10, which still used the synchronous protocol manager to drive it. There was also a precursor to the DC72, of uncertain nomenclature, which was PDP-8 based. Your memory is about right on the DN8x series, roughly. I think the DN87 was the box that connected to the -10 through a memory channel, and there were DN82's, which were terminal concentrators and DN85's, which were terminal concentrators with line printers or some such. The DN8x series were all based on PDP-11 machines. There was also a DN72, which was a real dog -- DC72 hardware but with new drivers. I think we got one to handle 8 terminals once... Article 1327 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!uchinews!harris.acc.iit.edu!shrike.depaul.edu!hal.cs.depaul.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!mwood From: mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: <1995Nov6.122756.19868@indyvax.iupui.edu> Date: 6 Nov 95 12:27:56 -0500 References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47bie8$rip@clarknet.clark.net> Lines: 18 In article <47bie8$rip@clarknet.clark.net>, gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner) writes: [deletia] > DEC distributed a number of terminal front end controllers. There were > PDP-8 based ones; the most popular was called the DC72. Later these > were superceded by the DN8x series, which contained various flavors of > PDP-11's. Wasn't the DC76 also based on a PDP-11? And don't forget the DN92, also a PDP-8. (Not really a terminal FE; it was an RJE station, though I think maybe you could put a few terminals on it too.) I don't recall the DN8x async. FEs, but we had lots of fun here with a pair of DN20s running DN87S. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead Systems Programmer +1 317 274 0749 [@disclaimer@] Internet: MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU BITNET: MWOOD@INDYVAX You are in a twisty little maze of hyperlinks, all useless. Article 1328 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!shellx.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@shellx.best.com (J.Smith and J.Snyder) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 7 Nov 1995 11:44:46 -0800 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 43 Message-ID: <47ocve$2me@shellx.best.com> References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shellx.best.com Summary: PDP8 = async terminal inteface for KA-10 In article , Eric Werme wrote: >billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: >>A fair number of pdp-10s had PDP-8s of some sort as front ends. > >Sigh. No. The KL10 was frontended by a PDP-11/40, the KS10 by a Intel 8080, >I believe. The KA10 and KI10 were able to stand by themselves, noble machines >that they were. BillW is correct. A fair number of KA-10 and KI-10 systems WERE front-ended by PDP-8s. (In this context, "front end" means "the device that you connect all your async terminals to" and not "the thing that loads microcode".) SCNSER had support for to read from the DC10 Data Line Scanner and from PDP-8 based devices on the CCI (Computer to Computer Interface, I/O device 14). At the Colorado School of Mines, we had a PDP-8 serving all the ASR-33 TTY lines. We had things set up such that the PDP-10 could boot from the PDP-8. Well, almost. The usual way of booting a KA was to boot from paper tape, using a short program in the paper tape reader that would read a larger BOOTS program off the first few blocks of the RP02. The pre-boot program wasn't very big, an we were able to store it in an unused section of the PDP-8's memory. If you set the Read-In Mode switches to 014 (CCI) instead of 104 (PTR), the short boot program would be entered into the PDP-10's memory from the 8 instead of from paper tape. >but memory is getting fuzzy. And I worked on them! >-- >Eric (Ric) Werme | werme@zk3.dec.com >Digital Equipment Corp. | This space intentionally left blank. I'm trying to remember the name of the company that made our PDP-8 base async terminal front-end. I think it was Digital Communications Associates of Alpharetta, Georgia. (I think they made IRMA boards and stat muxes as well.) Who else had PDP-8's driving 110 and 300 baud TTYs? -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran (and our cats). See http://www.inwap.com/ for details, including info on "ReBoot" and PDP-10. Article 1336 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!info-server.bbn.com!clements From: clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 8 Nov 1995 14:18:41 GMT Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <47qe81$eoc@info-server.bbn.com> References: <47l3jd$rtr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lion.bbn.com In article <47l3jd$rtr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) writes: >Dear Bob Clements, > >Now may be a good time to tell the story of the Irma bit (if it hasn't >been recounted here before). > >/BAH Nah. Has nothing to do with emulators or bit-banging UARTs. But I will point out that the 680 and 680i boxes DID have some hardware help in assembling/disassembling characters. They did operate on the characters one bit at a time, but there was a special line card to interface to the outside world and to hold the bit as it came in/went out. And a special form of the rotate instruction which built up the incoming character. Different baud rates were supported by having different clock interrupts to scan the lines at a particular rate. Mostly 110 and 300 baud. So it was mostly, but not completely, software. I had to do the driver code in TOPS-6 or TOPS-10 (Can't remember which after all these years) and made some changes in the PDP-8 code to make life easier on the 36-bit side. /Rcc Bob Clements, K1BC, clements@bbn.com, (w) +1 617 USE K1BC Article 1329 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.sprintlink.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!dms!albaugh From: albaugh@agames.com (Mike Albaugh) Subject: Line Scanners (was Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator) Message-ID: <1995Nov7.180518.24928@dms.agames.com> Sender: news@dms.agames.com (Net News Admin) Organization: Time-Warner Interactive X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 18:05:18 GMT Lines: 45 I tried to "reply" to vince, but: ... while talking to blob.best.net.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 ... User unknown So I hope the group will indulge me for a moment. Perhaps some of you will be able to help even if Vance Socci is not... Vance Socci (vsocci@vip.best.com) wrote: : [...] : > >the dec10 I used in college had a PDP8 controlling its terminal lines, : The 680/I had a PDP-8/I which ran around and assembled the bits for : all the lines (scanned them); the DC-10 was called the data line scanner : because that's what it did. Thus, the module SCNSER's name . . . I came a _bit_ too late to the party to do much with 8's or 6's (I dinked with a friend's account on a '6, and with another friend's '5, but really started with the '11-20). Anyway, I thought I recalled that one could get a terminal line concentrator based on a PDP-8 and bit-boffing software. It looks above like you would know more about it. Anyway, I ran into a guy that was asking, for prior art to fight a patent on patent on software switch- debounce. Seems TI has a patent on the idea of reading a switch twice with some delay in between to debounce. It occured to me that the typical "start- bit confirmation" in a UART (hard or software) would qualify as prior art. He said it had to pre-date early 70's (TI 4-bitter calc days). I replied that I had done a software UART on a Univac 7900 (Solid State 90, an IBM-650 look- alike with _fewer_ tubes :-) in about 1970, but he said "do you still have it?" and I had to admit that it was unlikely. When I mentioned mostly- software PDP-8 line interfaces he brightend up, but I really don't recall when/where I saw it, and can't get to my old PDP-8 manuals at present. Do you remember this stuff well enough to give me a solid reference to pass on? I can't believe I was the only Teletype (tm) hacker to get into programming and "invent" software UARTs, but the bitch seems to be that everybody thought it was obvious so nobody (else) wrote it down. Mike | Mike Albaugh (albaugh@agames.com) Time Warner Interactive | (The entertainment company formerly known as Atari Games (_NOT_ Tramiel's)) | 675 Sycamore Dr. Milpitas, CA 95035 voice: (408)434-1709 | The opinions expressed are my own (Boy, are they ever) Article 1335 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 8 Nov 1995 09:11:30 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 15 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <47qdqi$adm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net> Reply-To: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com During my KA days at WMU, we had hard-wired TTYs to the -10 and all the dial-ins were connected via the 680/I. Then I seem to remember that DEC started developing software for the DC72 when we were in Marlboro; so that was just before the KL came out. Then came the DC76 which worked much better. The DN8x, etc. really came out of the software developed by the DAS group. For instance, the DN87 was really the hardware of the DC76 running DAS software. It seems to me we called that protocol ANF10; and I don't believe it had any relationship to DECnet with the exception that we (TOPS10) were doing networks while DECnet was still a gleam in someone's eye (smiley face here). /BAH Article 1331 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator (Booting a -10) Date: 8 Nov 1995 01:00:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <47ovf0$fa9@caesar.ultra.net> References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47ocve$2me@shellx.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; Linux 1.2.1 i586) X-URL: news:47ocve$2me@shellx.best.com inwap@shellx.best.com (J.Smith and J.Snyder) wrote: > The usual way of booting a KA was to boot from paper tape, >using a short program in the paper tape reader that would read a larger >BOOTS program off the first few blocks of the RP02. In the configurations of PDP-10s I worked on, we were able to boot right from the disk drives (RP-04s or RP-06s connected via an RH-10/DF-10 pair). We simply set the readin address switches to 220 (I believe, it's been a _long_ time), zapped memory (real easy on a KI), and pegged the READIN button. Worked like a champ. In fact, we got so sick of the length of time BOOTS took to BLT itself into high memory, one of out hotshots wrote a fast boot program known as QBOOT as a replacement for BOOTS; it better than quartered the delay from punching READIN to operational status. (The slave CPUs were even easier; start @400). Carl Article 1340 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!usenet From: Vance Socci Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Line Scanners (was Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 95 23:40:12 PDT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <1995Nov7.180518.24928@dms.agames.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vsocci.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage In Article<1995Nov7.180518.24928@dms.agames.com>, albaugh@agames.com (Mike Albaugh) writes: > I tried to "reply" to vince, but: ^^^^^ its *Vance* > > .... while talking to blob.best.net.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 ... User unknown > 550 ... User unknown > > So I hope the group will indulge me for a moment. Perhaps some > of you will be able to help even if Vance Socci is not... > > Vance Socci (vsocci@vip.best.com) wrote: > > : [...] > : > >the dec10 I used in college had a PDP8 controlling its terminal lines, > : The 680/I had a PDP-8/I which ran around and assembled the bits for > : all the lines (scanned them); the DC-10 was called the data line scanner > : because that's what it did. Thus, the module SCNSER's name . . . > .. > I replied that > I had done a software UART on a Univac 7900 (Solid State 90, an IBM-650 look- > alike with _fewer_ tubes :-) in about 1970, but he said "do you still have > it?" and I had to admit that it was unlikely. When I mentioned mostly- > software PDP-8 line interfaces he brightend up, but I really don't recall > when/where I saw it, and can't get to my old PDP-8 manuals at present. Do you > remember this stuff well enough to give me a solid reference to pass on? > > I can't believe I was the only Teletype (tm) hacker to get into > programming and "invent" software UARTs, but the bitch seems to be that > everybody thought it was obvious so nobody (else) wrote it down. > > Mike /rcc himself has given you the best reference you could ask for: from the actual developer himself. He might even remember the names of some of the engineers that also worked on the DC68-680/I. I can attest personally that in 1970, I used a 680/I at school, and I even read the PDP-8 code listings. /rcc reminded us of the special instruction they added. I seem to recall something about shifting the bits through the "link bit", but that's a very hazy memory. Sorry for the fizzled original of this post; I think the newsreader died when I edited its configuration file and didn't bother to restart it . . . Article 1344 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!depot.mro.dec.com!mrnews.mro.dec.com!cloyd.enet.dec.com!deufel From: deufel@cloyd.enet.dec.com (Daniel Allen Deufel) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 9 NOV 95 22:29:22 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 140 Message-ID: <47ul9l$ee8@mrnews.mro.dec.com> References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cloyd.enet.dec.com In article <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com>, "Carl J. Appellof" writes... >werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) wrote: >>billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) writes: >> >>>A fair number of pdp-10s had PDP-8s of some sort as front ends. >> >>Sigh. No. The KL10 was frontended by a PDP-11/40, the KS10 by a Intel 8080, >>I believe. The KA10 and KI10 were able to stand by themselves, noble machines >>that they were. >> > >Maybe there are some crossed wires here. The KL10 and KS10 were the only >-10s that REQUIRED a little front-end computer to provide console services. >But KIs often used front-end PDP-11s called DN87 to provide terminal lines >and other remote services. *I* call these systems "front-ends" too. >An earlier version of the front-end, called the DN92, I think, was based on >a PDP-8. Earlier -10s used a hardwired device called a DC10 to provide >the terminal connectivity. > >I'm not sure which ones of these could have been used by a KA10. >-- >Carl Appellof >not speaking for >Digital Equipment Corporation > > As far as front-end processors go, they can be divided into two classifications: 1) Console Front Ends - The processor responsible for initializing, monitoring, and diagnosing the 36 bit ISP. In this category there are two. The PDP-6, KA10, and KI10 had no CFE. They had lots of switches and lights (wonderful lights!!!). The KL10 had a PDP-11/40 running RSX20F as the CFE. In addition to the basic responsibilities listed above, the CFE also supported up to 128 TTYs, CDR, LPTs, the CTY, and a KLINIK line (for dial in diagnosis). The KS10, as mentioned above, had an Intel 8080 acting as the CFE. This CFE was a much simpler design and handled only the CTY and KLINIK lines. 2) Communications Front Ends - Processors responsible for providing communications services to the host. There were a number of different design centers and protocols supported. Minicomputer Terminal Controllers: 680 - A PDP-8 managing TTYs. 680i - A PDP-8/I managing TTYs. DC76 - A PDP-11/40 managing up to 128 TTYs. DC76 code base. Attached via DL10. ANF10 Network Processors: Host attached front ends: DC75 - A PDP-11/15 managing a number of DS11 sync lines. DN8x code base. Attached to host via DL10. DN87 - A PDP-11/40 managing TTYs and synch lines. DN8x code base Attached via DL10. DN87s - Same as the DN87 except that it attached via DTE (KL10 only). DN20 - A PDP-11/34 managing TTYs and synch lines. DN8x code base Attached via DTE (KL10 only). Network attached nodes: DC71 - PDP-8/I based remote station. 16 TTYs, CDR, LPT, and CTY. 1 synch line. ANF10 End Node. (Note. There was an earlier code base that used a bisynch-ish protocol to talk to the host. Pre-ANF10.) DC72 - PDP-8/E based remote station. 16 TTYs, CDR, LPT, and CTY. 1 synch line. ANF10 End Node. DN92 - PDP-8/A based remote station. Updated DC72. DN82 - PDP-11/40 based remote station. DN8x code base. 32 TTYs, CDR, LPT, CTY, and synch lines. Full ANF routing node. DN200 - PDP-11/34 based remote station. Updated DN82. DECnet Network Processors: Host attached front ends: DN20 - A PDP-11/34 managing DECnet synch lines. Network attached nodes: DN200 - PDP-11/34 based remote station. Supported TTYs, CDR, and LPT in a DECnet network. IBM Communications Processors: DN61 - PDP-11/40 supporting Bisynch communications for TOPS10. Supported 2780/3780 RJE stations or emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations. DL10 attached. DN61s - A DTE attached DN61. (KL10 Only) DN62 - Same as DN61 with HASP support. DN62s - A DTE attached DN61. (KL10 Only) DN64 - PDP-11/34 supporting Bisynch communications for TOPS20. Supported 2780/3780 RJE stations or emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations. DTE Attached. DN65 - Same as DN64 with HASP support. While I suppose that one could argue that the BBN IMP was a front end, it wasn't a DEC product. It had a Honeywell mini in it and connected to the 36 bit host via an AN10 or an AN11 (KS10). There were also some of third party front ends. The Smart8/E from Digital Communications Associates comes to mind. I think that this covers most of the significant front end processors in the 36 bit family. Cheers, -Abdul- +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Daniel Allen Deufel Digital Equipment Corporation | | 238 Berlin Road Revenue Systems Engineering | | Bolton, Massachusetts 01740 129 Parker Street PK01-1/B1 | | 508/779-6593 Maynard, Massachusetts 01754 | | 508/493-6505 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 1353 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!usenet From: Vance Socci Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 18:06:56 PDT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <47l3jd$rtr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <1995Nov9.150756.19997@indyvax.iupui.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vsocci.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage In Article<1995Nov9.150756.19997@indyvax.iupui.edu>, mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) writes: > In article <47l3jd$rtr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) writes: > > Dear Bob Clements, > > > > Now may be a good time to tell the story of the Irma bit (if it hasn't > > been recounted here before). > > Yes, please, someone around here mentioned it once but didn't have time to > elaborate, and he's since moved on. > -- Perhaps if I tell a broken version of the story, probably heard at least second or third hand, /rcc will grace us with the original story. The story goes as such: a woman named Irma kept complaining to DEC that her terminal would hang up while she was reading in a paper tape (she was using either a model 33 or 35, with the paper tape reading option). Eventually her complaints reached the monitor guys. Presumably, /rcc got involved and talked to the infamous Irma himself. At first he didn't believe that is wasn't just something that she was doing wrong somewhere, or that her paper tape reader was screwy. Eventually, the legend goes, /rcc went to see the problem for himself, and voila: her terminal really was hanging periodically! The problem was that her terminal interface was occasionally dropping transmit done interrupts, and without said interrupt, there was nothing to trigger the output of the next character, so the line hung forever. The solution: /rcc installed the famous "IRMA CATCHER", LDB bit LPLIRM in LDBPAG (I think it was somewhere else originally, but that's where it lives today in 7.05 SCNSER) which is set on an active line if no interrupt is seen within a second. The next time around, if a transmit done interrupt still hasn't occurred on the line, the next character is forced out regardless. Thus, the once-a-second character output that some of us have seen now and then. Someone ought to see if good old Irma is still around and where she is working . . /evs p.s. Again, I'll be happy to have the story from /rcc, and I'm sure my version has some mistakes. I heard my version originally from Don Lewine, who frequents this newsgroup now and then. He probably got the story from /rcc or someone who worked with /rcc in DEC10 LCGE . . . Article 1351 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!pgh!powell From: powell@pgh.nauticom.net (Reed Powell) Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 22:05:21 GMT References: <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net> <47qdqi$adm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: Nauticom - Internet Access Provider Lines: 125 Well, we certainly had networking on the -10s before DECnet, but not all that far in advance. What we really had far in advance was the idea of handling terminal traffic outside of the main processor's box. That was the beginning of ANF10, the work that the old DAS group did. That was the DC7x series: DC72 was the remote (over a sync line) concentrator, which connected (initially) to the DS10 I/O Bus box on the -10; the DC76, which was the local (next to the -10) terminal line concentrator, which connected to the DL10 (and before that the short lived DMA10); and finally the box that started getting us into the "true" WAN oriented networking, the DC75. The DC75 was designed to interface to the -10 via the DL10, and take over the sync line handling functions of the DS10 without the I/O Bus overhead of the DS10. Then you could put remote DC72 and (anyone remember these) DC68 (PDP8 based remote line concentrators) boxes in the field, and terminate them in the DC75. Actually, you could daisy chain then one level deep in some configurations, so a line (which were real expensive then) could run from the DC75 to a DC72, and then to another DC72 or DC68. Then came the DN8x series, which brought ANF10 (using the NSP protocol) and real networks. The DC7x series really were terminal (and some unit record device) oriented. The DN8x series understood the concepts of routing, load balancing over the WAN, and the truely advanced concept of buffering characters from multiple terminals (a la LAT) and sending the whole sheebang to the -10 in one message. The DC7x series sent one character at a time. The DN8x also understood errors, error handling, and recovery (what, you mean those telco lines sometimes dropped a few bits?!) THE DL10, by the way, has always been in my book the most interesting device ever put on the -10s. Here we have a box the size of an industrial refrigerator, built mostly from off the stockroom shelf boards. One one side you have 1-4 UNIBUSs and off the other 1-2 DEC10 memory bus/IO Bus connections. In the middle you have one heck of a memory map. We actually booted the PDP11s by running a prog on the -10 which simply loaded itself into the memory, mapped (yea, mapped, before KL10 days) the DL10 -10 side addresses into it's space (after locking it's memory down), shoving the -11 sides version of that base address into a register the -11 could see, then hitting the doorbell for the -11. The -11 would start running, but all of it's code was in the -10's memory. For it's time, that was pretty advanced. The best part of the DL10 though was when the -11 had any problems and the local office sent out an -11 tech to handle it. First rule of -11 debugging is to follow the UNIBUS, so he'd try to do so. But the last thing in the -11 was the cable going to the DL10, which of course is physically bigger than anything an -11 tech has every seen in his life! He'd follow that cable, it'd go into this box, so he'd start over. After a few times of doing these, he'd open this box that was a mystery to him, and get such an odd look on his face: it was filled with boards he knew, but had never seen so many in one place at one in a box with power applied to it. THen came the DTE20, and all the fun went out of life. I peg the DTE20 and the RH20 as the beginning of a new generation where technology started getting out of hand, and took on a life of it's own, commonly referred to as "microcode!" Once DECnet came out, and looked like it might work (aka DECnet Phase II), it even started to have some of the capabilities of ANF10! Once DECnet got to Phase III, it had mode of ANF10s primary capabilities. Sometime in the Phase II life of DECnet, we decided that maybe it ws a good idea to communicate and interoperate (this was before the word "open" had been discovered), and so the DCP ( DECnet Compatible Port) was born. Kalman Reti and Wayne (WEM) Matson spent a lot of time on that. It ended up doing a pretty decent job of fooling the rest of the DN87 (it was code that ran in the DN87) into thinking that the DECnet network was just another ANF10 node. Itlucked out because Phase II didn't know about routing, although ANF10 did, so it didn't have to do that bit of trickery. The luck only lasted a while though, because I ended up spending a lot of time on a second round of work at Ft. Huachuca getting it to talk to their Phase III VAX system. The DC20 series came into play, which brought us some new devices like the DZ11, which were actually stupider than the old ones (DH11, which was a *really* smart terminal line interface; I don't think any OS from DEC ever used it's true capabilities). It also brought a constant yearning on the part of the customer base for us to make use of the 11/34s ability to have a lot more memory than the 11/40 - it had memory mapping even! Best story I ever heard on ANF10s capabilites and where it stood architecturaally in the industry came from Bob Harper, who I worked with in Arizona, and who left DEC to go to Honeywell in Phoenix. Some of their deep thinkers decided that they needed to get into networking, and so started thinking deep and hard, and came up with a good design. They got everyone together to review it, and everyone thinks it is great. Capabilities like remote terminal concentration, WANs with multiple paths, virtual terminals between hosts (SET HOST), remote printers, etc etc. etc. Well, Bob raises his hand and says to the effect "uh (first word in all Bob Harper sentences), this looks real good, but I gotta tell y'all that Digital already does that." The response from aforementioned thinkers of the deep was "impossible; it hasn't been discovered yet!" "Discovered," like something under a rock! So Bob decides to prove his point. Remember how we used to have a PPN for the field to log into 1026, using the "*" capability to have a PPN assigned during that session only? Well Bob decides to dial in and use it (naw, "breaking and entering" refers to your house not your computer!) to show these guys. Next thing they know he is SET HOSTing from Galway to Phoenix to Marlboro to got knows where, doing SYSTATs (since you didn't have to LOGIN to run SYSTAT on a remote system that you didn't have an account on). He said that the looks on the faces of the thinkers deep was a cross between mystification/dread/mortification and just in general and on SH*T type of feeling. This was the same era that produced the new Digital slogan" Digital, making tomorrow yesterday today" -reed JMFBAH (jmfbah@aol.com) wrote: : During my KA days at WMU, we had hard-wired TTYs to the -10 and all the : dial-ins were connected via the 680/I. : Then I seem to remember that DEC started developing software for the DC72 : when we were in Marlboro; so that was just before the KL came out. Then : came the DC76 which worked much better. : The DN8x, etc. really came out of the software developed by the DAS : group. For instance, the DN87 was really the hardware of the DC76 running : DAS software. It seems to me we called that protocol ANF10; and I don't : believe it had any relationship to DECnet with the exception that we : (TOPS10) were doing networks while DECnet was still a gleam in someone's : eye (smiley face here). : /BAH Article 1354 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!usenet From: "Carl J. Appellof" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 13 Nov 1995 02:05:00 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 37 Message-ID: <48694c$bqa@usenet.pa.dec.com> References: <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net> <47qdqi$adm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zso16136.zso.dec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 32bit) powell@pgh.nauticom.net (Reed Powell) wrote: >The DN8x series understood the concepts of >routing, load balancing over the WAN, and the truely advanced concept of >buffering characters from multiple terminals (a la LAT) and sending the >whole sheebang to the -10 in one message. Plus it understood how to do local echoing (can you say "echo pipeline marker"?), something which LAT terminal servers never did. Oh, and that's "DN20", not "DC20". Another thing I remeber about ANF10 was its routing method. I still remeber going to a talk with Bob Houk (Mr. ANF10 during my stint in TOPS-10 engineering). We went to listen to Radia Perlman talk about a revolutionary new routing algorithm they were going to use in DECnet PhaseV, called "Link State Routing". Supposedly a great advance over the limitations of Phase IV routing. Bob heard a little of the talk and realized that the "new" method Radia described was the same one that ANF10 had been using for years. No credit to the -10 group for developing it though. > > THE DL10, by the way, has always been in my book the most interesting >device ever put on the -10s. I once heard that the DL10 was more complicated to repair than the KI-10 to which it was attached. Luckily ours at UW never broke! -- Carl Appellof not speaking for Digital Equipment Corporation Article 1362 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!uchinews!harris.acc.iit.edu!shrike.depaul.edu!hal.cs.depaul.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!mwood From: mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: <1995Nov13.124607.20086@indyvax.iupui.edu> Date: 13 Nov 95 12:46:07 -0500 References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net> Lines: 17 In article <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net>, gagner@clark.net (Philip Gagner) writes: [deletia] > Your memory is about right on the DN8x series, roughly. I think the > DN87 was the box that connected to the -10 through a memory channel, DN87 was the box that spoke IBM BiSync RJE protocol. Loads of fun. I thought that the hardware itself was called DN20. (At least, when we didn't need both our DN87s anymore, and we did need DECnet, I was able to pour routing software for the DN20 into the box and make it run.) It did indeed run across, was that the DTE? I spent a lot of interesting hours trying to understand the code on both the PDP11 and PDP10 sides, and make it work a little more the way we liked it. (*Not* the DTE protocol code -- I left that strictly alone.) -- Mark H. Wood, Lead Systems Programmer +1 317 274 0749 [@disclaimer@] Internet: MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU BITNET: MWOOD@INDYVAX You are at a complex junction, with hyperlinks running off in *all* directions. A hollow voice says, "PLUGH". Article 1363 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!uchinews!harris.acc.iit.edu!shrike.depaul.edu!hal.cs.depaul.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!mwood From: mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: <1995Nov13.125845.20087@indyvax.iupui.edu> Date: 13 Nov 95 12:58:45 -0500 References: <47mhgt$7e5@clarknet.clark.net> <47qdqi$adm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Lines: 22 In article <47qdqi$adm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) writes: [deletia] > The DN8x, etc. really came out of the software developed by the DAS > group. For instance, the DN87 was really the hardware of the DC76 running > DAS software. It seems to me we called that protocol ANF10; and I don't > believe it had any relationship to DECnet with the exception that we > (TOPS10) were doing networks while DECnet was still a gleam in someone's > eye (smiley face here). Memories! I remember a subsystem called DAS78, and I think that eventually that found its way into the regular product line as DN87S. We also had a hacked version ("DAS79") that would talk another RJE protocol (Export/Import) to CDC Kronos systems. I inherited the maintenance on all of this stuff at our site, some years ago. Fun, fun, fun! (I am only being half-sarcastic here.) I just came across a sheaf of Special Product Bulletins from ASG that encompass a lot of DN7x, DN8x gear. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead Systems Programmer +1 317 274 0749 [@disclaimer@] Internet: MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU BITNET: MWOOD@INDYVAX You are at a complex junction, with hyperlinks running off in *all* directions. A hollow voice says, "PLUGH". Article 1368 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!uchinews!harris.acc.iit.edu!shrike.depaul.edu!hal.cs.depaul.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!mwood From: mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: <1995Nov14.124823.20130@indyvax.iupui.edu> Date: 14 Nov 95 12:48:23 -0500 References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47ocve$2me@shellx.best.com> Lines: 18 In article <47ocve$2me@shellx.best.com>, inwap@shellx.best.com (J.Smith and J.Snyder) writes: [deletia] > I'm trying to remember the name of the company that made our PDP-8 base > async terminal front-end. I think it was Digital Communications > Associates of Alpharetta, Georgia. (I think they made IRMA boards and > stat muxes as well.) Who else had PDP-8's driving 110 and 300 baud TTYs? Dunno about your FE, but we still have the remains of a statewide network of DCA 300-series terminal switches, and some of their DPAX stat muxes. It was said that DCA was started by people who had left Digital. (The 300s boot from DECtape II drives, though floppy drives were also offered later.) They later bought the IRMA line from someone and IMHO kinda forgot about the switch business. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead Systems Programmer +1 317 274 0749 [@disclaimer@] Internet: MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU BITNET: MWOOD@INDYVAX You are at a complex junction, with hyperlinks running off in *all* directions. A hollow voice says, "PLUGH". Article 1366 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!info-server.bbn.com!clements From: clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Irma (was Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator) Date: 16 Nov 1995 19:36:28 GMT Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN) Lines: 83 Message-ID: <48g3rs$4um@info-server.bbn.com> References: <47l3jd$rtr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <1995Nov9.150756.19997@indyvax.iupui.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lion.bbn.com In article Vance Socci writes: >Perhaps if I tell a broken version of the story, probably heard at least >second or third hand, /rcc will grace us with the original story. I dunno about "grace". (And, please, it's spelled "/Rcc" even though the early TTYs and LPTs were monocase.) Well. These legends fade a bit with time, but I'll try... >The story goes as such: a woman named Irma kept complaining to DEC that her >terminal would hang up while she was reading in a paper tape (she was using >either a model 33 or 35, with the paper tape reading option). True. (Although she herself was too quiet to have been the one complaining.) She worked for one of the PDP-10-based time sharing services in the southwest. My memory is vague here, I think it was in Albuquerque, but it might have been SLC or some other place. >Eventually, the legend goes, /rcc went to >see the problem for himself, and voila: her terminal really was hanging >periodically! True. >The problem was that her terminal interface was occasionally dropping transmit >done interrupts, False. Although it sure seemed like a hardware problem, it was software. >The solution: /rcc installed the famous "IRMA CATCHER", LDB bit LPLIRM in >LDBPAG [to time out transmit interrupts]. Actually, that was a side effect, which I put in while chasing the real bug, and which I decided to leave in as a belt-and-suspenders thing. The real problem was very boring and simple, though it took me forever to find it. There were interrupt-level bits and process-level bits in the status word for the TTY (DEVIOUS xxx DEVIOS(DEVDAT)). I hadn't wanted to add a whole extra word per terminal (small memories in those days, plus it would have messed up the way DDBs were allocated and initialized) just for a bit or two for interrupt level. I was real careful about protecting things from interrupt level in all my code. Eventually I discovered to my horror that SETIOD, way over in the generic file system code, was setting the file-buffer-level IO DONE bit not by movx T1,IODONE IORM T1,DEVIOS(DEVDAT) which would have been safe, but by something like move t1,DEVIOS(DEVDAT) fiddle-dee-dee for a while txo t1,IODONE movem T1,DEVIOS(DEVDAT) and that of course trashed the TX_PENDING bit when an interrupt happened in between there. And SETIOD was so many levels away from the code I was staring at that I didn't verify that it was OK, and I couldn't believe it would have been written that way anyhow. Why it happened so repeatably to that one user on that one machine, and ran just fine on the machines at the mill, I'll never know. >Someone ought to see if good old Irma is still around and where she is working She seemed like a nice quiet person who just stoically put up with what the computer kept doing to her. Dunno if she was ever aware that her name was immortalized in the monitor sources. I sure felt badly about it when I kept saying "Now I've got it nailed! This time, for sure!" and she would sit down at her trusty TTY and have it hang again within five minutes. >/evs /Rcc Bob Clements, K1BC, clements@bbn.com, (w) +1 617 USE K1BC Article 1378 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.net99.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!macaw.cyberport.com!news.chatlink.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator In-Reply-To: deufel@cloyd.enet.dec.com's message of 9 NOV 95 22:29:22 Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com> <47ul9l$ee8@mrnews.mro.dec.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 06:27:23 GMT Lines: 17 From: deufel@cloyd.enet.dec.com (Daniel Allen Deufel) >ANF10 Network Processors: We had a DEC NI20 on our KL which had an ethernet adaptor and we used for TCP. It was a box around the size of a BA box. Not sure how that fits into your list or if it does. I don't think too many were sold. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | http://www.std.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 1379 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com> <47ul9l$ee8@mrnews.mro.dec.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 17:34:22 GMT Lines: 23 In article , Barry Shein wrote: > >From: deufel@cloyd.enet.dec.com (Daniel Allen Deufel) >>ANF10 Network Processors: > >We had a DEC NI20 on our KL which had an ethernet adaptor and we used >for TCP. It was a box around the size of a BA box. > >Not sure how that fits into your list or if it does. I don't think too >many were sold. > Well, given that the NI20 was how KLs connected to Ethernets, I'd guess that a lot of them were sold (relative to the number of KLs sold.) DECnet and LAT also ran over the NI20. The NI20 took up two RH slots which doesn't match your mention of a BA box. There was the AN10/20 which connected a KL to an IMP. Perhaps that is what you were thinking of? Sam Article 1381 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator In-Reply-To: weiner@world.std.com's message of Fri, 24 Nov 1995 17:34:22 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com> <47ul9l$ee8@mrnews.mro.dec.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:36:39 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: alderson@netcom20.netcom.com In article weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) writes: >In article , >Barry Shein wrote: >>We had a DEC NI20 on our KL which had an ethernet adaptor and we used >>for TCP. It was a box around the size of a BA box. >Well, given that the NI20 was how KLs connected to Ethernets, I'd guess that a >lot of them were sold (relative to the number of KLs sold.) DECnet and LAT >also ran over the NI20. The NI was Digital's eventual method of putting a KL on an Ethernet, but it only came out around 1987 or so. Long before that, there were devices such as the Stanford (later cisco Systems) MEIS (MASSBUS-Ethernet Interface Subsystem), which made the Ethernet look logically like a tape drive. Much nicer than the NI, as it could do things like talk to itself on the net (useful for testing). >The NI20 took up two RH slots which doesn't match your mention of a BA box. >There was the AN10/20 which connected a KL to an IMP. Perhaps that is what >you were thinking of? The NI had to be placed at RH #5 (just as the CI had to be placed at #7). The main hardware for the two was identical; they just had different microcode and network interfaces. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1382 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!cygnus.com!news!grossman From: grossman@andros.cygnus.com (Stu Grossman) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Date: 28 Nov 1995 01:48:26 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> <47lgoo$gsv@usenet.pa.dec.com> <47ul9l$ee8@mrnews.mro.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: andros.cygnus.com In-reply-to: alderson@netcom.com's message of Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:36:39 GMT > The NI was Digital's eventual method of putting a KL on an Ethernet, but it > only came out around 1987 or so. Ahem.... The NI came out around 84 or 85. > Long before that, there were devices such as > the Stanford (later cisco Systems) MEIS (MASSBUS-Ethernet Interface Subsystem), > which made the Ethernet look logically like a tape drive. Much nicer than the > NI, as it could do things like talk to itself on the net (useful for testing). The NI supported a loopback mode, but since the hardware that calculated the CRC could only be connected to either the transmit or the receive side, you would always get a CRC error if you received any of your own transmissions. I *believe* that the MEIS also had this aspect. Therefore if it was looping anything, it was either just doing it internally, or ignoring the CRC errors that resulted from the transmission. > >The NI20 took up two RH slots which doesn't match your mention of a BA box. > >There was the AN10/20 which connected a KL to an IMP. Perhaps that is what > >you were thinking of? > > The NI had to be placed at RH #5 (just as the CI had to be placed at #7). The > main hardware for the two was identical; they just had different microcode and > network interfaces. You are both sort of right. The NI and CI both consisted of two sets of boards. One set, which was common to both lived in the MBOX, the other set, which was specific to the NI or the CI lived in an outboard box, usually housed in a BA cabinet. The common boards were called a KLIPAs, and consisted of 2901 based systems with 2910 controllers. These boards (I think there were three) were installed in the MBOX in the same slots that were used for RH20s. Each KLIPA really only occupied one RH (actually, CBUS) slot. The reason DEC used two slots was because the power requirements of KLIPAs were higher than RH20s. The other set of boards were specific to the NI and CI. The NI had a single board, which was basically just a big buffer and a transceiver interface. The ethernet controller (so to speak) was just a bunch of PALs which left all of the hard stuff (like retransmissions and address filtering) to the KLIPA. The CI consisted of three boards, and had considerable smarts. These boards lived in their own seperate card cage, which was housed in a BA box. I think that it was also possible to put the card cage in the same box that housed th MF20 if room was available. Stu Grossman Article 1394 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!lougheed From: lougheed@netcom.com (Kirk Lougheed) Subject: Re: PDP-10 vs pdp-8 emulator Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <4710s2$7ij@quest.ccsi.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:20:31 GMT Lines: 35 Sender: lougheed@netcom17.netcom.com In article , Stu Grossman wrote: > >> Long before that, there were devices such as >> the Stanford (later cisco Systems) MEIS (MASSBUS-Ethernet Interface Subsystem), >> which made the Ethernet look logically like a tape drive. Much nicer than the >> NI, as it could do things like talk to itself on the net (useful for testing). > >The NI supported a loopback mode, but since the hardware that calculated the >CRC could only be connected to either the transmit or the receive side, you >would always get a CRC error if you received any of your own transmissions. > >I *believe* that the MEIS also had this aspect. Therefore if it was looping >anything, it was either just doing it internally, or ignoring the CRC errors >that resulted from the transmission. Hello Stu - The SEEQ ethernet chip used by the MEIS has CRC hardware for both the transmit and receive sides. So, yes, the MEIS could receive its own full-length transmissions, including the correct CRC. This made debugging easier and in the field you could easily tell if you are really connected to the Ethernet. We liked the idea so much that the MCI, MEC, and FEP Ethernet cards for high end cisco routers have the same design. As for looking like a tape drive, well, that's a slight exaggeration. The MEIS was of course a Massbus device with its own RH20 driver. There was a path in the code where the MEIS was busy and you didn't want any new I/O started just then. Len Bosack appropriated a status bit used by rewinding tape drives to defer I/O. It was rather cute: "sorry, no new I/O just now, we're rewinding the Ethernet". Kirk Article 1392 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: 36-bits or none at all! Date: 3 Dec 1995 09:54:12 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 12 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <49sdmk$h4o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: References: <1995Dec4.123910.22686@zippy.dct.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: coho.halcyon.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: shellx.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1397 comp.os.vms:30274 Alan Greig (ccdarg@zippy.dct.ac.uk) wrote: : >> That may have been the customer story-line, but I know for a fact that it : >> was purely N.I.H. (Not Invented Here) syndrome. That is precisely the : >> reason why TOPS10 features such as SMP and GALAXY were never acquired. I think two points of history might be interesting here. First TOPS-20 itself had a NIH problem and was the prime competitor to what became VMS. (TOPS-10 was never in the running for some reason and the KS-10 was one result) There was a point around 1977 where a 36 bit system running an evolved TOPS-20 was a very serious competitor to what became VAX and VMS. One of the ways that VAX/VMS won the fight was to discredit as much as possible about KL-10/TOPS-20. {Interestingly enough one of the problems was the ability to run in a 32K system). One of the problems the KL-10 had was a paper written at (I seem to recall) MIT claiming that the tradeoffs between Hardwired logic and Microcoded logic were "all wrong". The issue was around the paging hardware and microcode. I recently noticed that ALPHA has made the same tradeoffs that the KL-10 made in this area. On a related note (sort of) one of the high priority requirements for VMS was that it be able to GUARANTEE deterministic respone times to timed events and certain interupts. This had it's ancestory in a project at some university to play music. Apparently under TOPS-x0 (don't recall if it was -10 or -20) in a timesharing environment it was not possible to make the music play properly. Does anyone out there remember more details on this? Article 1399 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!pravda.aa.msen.com!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Subject: Re: 36-bits or none at all! Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:02:11 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1995Dec4.123910.22686@zippy.dct.ac.uk> <49vrme$dm9@news1.halcyon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: hellman To: "R. Terry McCutchen" In-Reply-To: <49vrme$dm9@news1.halcyon.com> Xref: shellx.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1399 comp.os.vms:30287 On 4 Dec 1995, R. Terry McCutchen wrote: > On a related note (sort of) one of the high priority requirements for VMS > was that it be able to GUARANTEE deterministic respone times to timed > events and certain interupts. This had it's ancestory in a project at > some university to play music. Apparently under TOPS-x0 (don't recall if > it was -10 or -20) in a timesharing environment it was not possible to > make the music play properly. Does anyone out there remember more details > on this? That's curious, because for many years the leading centers for computer music in the world, CCRMA (Stanford University) and IRCAM (Paris, France) used heavily-modified versions of TOPS-10. -- Mark -- DoD #0105, R90/6 pilot, FAX: (206) 685-4045 ICBM: N 47 39'35" W 122 18'39" Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 1406 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: 36-bits or none at all! In-Reply-To: shoppa@altair.krl.caltech.edu's message of 5 Dec 1995 17:21:01 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <4a1v1t$5s1@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:26:21 GMT Lines: 15 Sender: alderson@netcom19.netcom.com In article <4a1v1t$5s1@gap.cco.caltech.edu> shoppa@altair.krl.caltech.edu (Tim Shoppa) writes: >OBpdp-10: Was there ever any attempt to port, say, BSD or some other flavor of >Unix to the PDP-10? Yeah--by the original developers. The reason Unix was written for the PDP-7 was that they couldn't get funding for a -10 purchase... (Source: Ritchie) -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1412 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!usenet From: Vance Socci Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: DEC Versions 1,2,3 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 12:22:48 PDT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: vsocci.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Hi everyone, Just got back from trudging the Fall DECUS '95 trade show, where XKL and I showed off the first public exhibition of TOPS-10 running on a TOAD. (Yes, you could even type "MAKE LOVE" at it and it would give the appropriate response). Here, for your amusement, I will recount a little story I told a few newbie DEC employees (oh, I'm sorry, am I supposed to say "Digital"?) . . . There are 3 major versions of DEC: DEC 1.0, DEC 2.0, and DEC 3.0. DEC V1.0 (1958-1975): Hi, were Digital Equipment corporation. Here are some nifty computers to help you get some work done. Feel free to hook them up to anything you want, here's all the code, have fun! If you have any trouble, we're here to help. DEC V2.0 (1976-1992 or so): Hi, we're Digital, you're not. Here are our computers. Buy them or else. What, you say you're having trouble getting your work done on them? Too bad, change the way you work to fit how our computers work. What, you want to hook up non-Digital things to it? WE'LL SUE!! Whose computer do you think it is, anyway? DEC V3.0: (1992- ): We're sorry, we won't do it again . . . /evs Article 1491 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news1.digital.com!decwrl!amd!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: jcgreen@ix.netcom.com(John C Green Jr ) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Working for PDP-10 Engineering in '68 ... a personal account Date: 2 Jan 1996 20:45:29 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4cc5h9$btj@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sj23-21.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jan 02 12:45:29 PM PST 1996 I graduated in JUN68 with BSEE and joined PDP-10 Engineering (rather than being one of 300 engineers designing the IBM System/360 Model 195 which was my only other computer offer). There were two major transitions going on then: * Digital was growing from small to large * The industry was going from discrete components to ICs I was the 11th engineer in PDP-10 Engineering--each was given lots of responsibility. My first assignment was as Project Engineer of the RP10--a PDP-10 disk controller for RP-02 (Digital's name for OEMed Memorex 660--IBM 2314 type) 25 MB disks. The RP10 listed for $29K, the RP-02 for $25K. They ended up selling 300 RP10s and 1500 RP-02s for a list of $8.7M of controllers + $37.5M of disks which I felt was quite a bit of responsibility when June grads were making $6,800 to $8,600 (actual numbers from my school's placement office for jobs accepted in JUN68). The next Spring I saw a job posting. The PDP-11 product line (no product had yet been announced) was looking for a JUN69 graduate to design a disk controller to the same RP-02. Only the candidate was to be a Junior Engineer understudying a Senior Engineer for his first project. Digital had made the transition from small to large. New hire June grads were in training for the first year. All my Senior labs were with ICs. When I started at Digital I asked for an approved parts list. My manager said, "We don't use ICs. The last time we evaluated them they didn't have enough noise rejection." (Of course not if you take every pin of every chip and bring it out to a Gardner-Denver wirewrap backplane 15.5 inches wide and 21.0 inches high or bigger!) As a result the RP-10 was 6' high, 19" wide, had 144 lights, and almost 500 discrete component circuit cards! Anyway I'm only 49yo, but I designed a major piece of digital logic for a major computer vendor with discrete components. Back in '69 when the RP10 and RP-02 first shipped the disk was $25K/25MB or $1000./MB. A recent Fry's ad in the San Jose Mercury offers a Conner IDE hard drive at $249./1.6GB or $0.156/MB (over 6400 times cheaper)--but that's another story. 36-bits or none at all! :-) - - - Internet Marketing and Business Development 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JohnCGreen@aol.com Article 1510 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JohnCGreen@aol.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 Engineering in '68 ... a personal account Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:59:21 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4csbb4$4o5@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4cfi93$52o@ss2.digex.net> <4ch6u3$agc@goonsquad.spies.com> <4ck43g$r07@netnews.intertel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sj18-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jan 08 4:02:44 PM PST 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 farmergord@maestro.intertel.net () wrote: >Al Kossow (aek@goonsquad.spies.com) wrote: >: From article <4cfi93$52o@ss2.digex.net>, by doug@ss2.digex.net (Doug Humphrey): >: > As someone who had RP02's and an RP10 in his dining room for a >: > while, I would like to say thanks! Your work with Flip Chips is >: > appreciated. >: In the late 70's my desk was about 10 feet from an RP02. If you >: recall, it had a mechanical cyl lock that would set when it was on >: cyl (tick). >: tick, tick tick, tickticktickticktickticktick arggggggggg! >: ..thing drove me nuts >If you think _one_ was noisy... I was the site FS rep for >one KA10 site that had about five of them in a row, and they were >in 'washing machine' mode all day every day. >Ah, the good ole days. The sounds of Teletypes, card readers, drum >printers and RP02's. For those of you who don't know what we're talking about the RP-02 used a linear motor to move the head assembly. There was a rack machined with teeth spaced 0.02 in. apart. There were two pawls offset by 0.01 in. arranged such that either one or the other of them would mesh with a few teeth and hold the head assembly in place. There were 203 cylinders 0.01 in apart. A bank of RP02's up close would make quite a racket. I had to test a maximum configuration of 8 for weeks in the mill on floor 5-0, below milll pond level and untouched by sunlight. But that's another story. Article 1509 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JohnCGreen@aol.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:59:24 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4csbb7$4o5@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ch6u3$agc@goonsquad.spies.com> <8B8625E.0BBD000016.uuout@compudata.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sj18-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jan 08 4:02:47 PM PST 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) wrote: >AK>In the late 70's my desk was about 10 feet from an RP02. If you >AK>recall, it had a mechanical cyl lock that would set when it was on >AK>cyl (tick). >AK>tick, tick tick, tickticktickticktickticktick arggggggggg! >AK>..thing drove me nuts >Worse still was the sound of yet another head crashing on the (damnit, >the manual is even stuck back behind the 370 JCL book so I don't have >the number) KA-10 swapping drum. I forget the manufacturer, but I think >by the time we took the LIRICS drum out of service, about half of the >256? heads were each making the sound of nails on a chalkboard, each at >its own separate frequency. > dmr Sorry your "PDP-10 Reference Handbook, Order code: ATX, $5.00 each. Discounts available on 5 or more copies. Copyright 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971 by Digital Equipment Corporation" is being contaminated by a 370 JCL book. Mine's right here ... Oh yes, starting on page 1-197 .. "RC10 Disk/Drum System. RC10 control requires DF10 data channel. Up to four RD10 disks and RM10B drums in any mix ... " The RD10 disk, which is manufactured by Burroughs, can store 512,000 36-bit words in blocks of thirty-two words each. ... "The RM10B drum, which is manufactured by Bryant, is smaller but faster than the disk. It can store 345,600 words in 64-word blocks." The RM10B spun at 5/6 speed on 50Hz. Article 1518 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.netusa.net!not-for-mail From: rwarren@alpha.netusa.net (Robert John Warren) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: LIRICS (was Re: Working for PDP-10 En) Date: 11 Jan 1996 00:41:24 -0500 Organization: Network Internet Services (516) 543-0240 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4d27u4$bet@alpha.netusa.net> References: <4ch6u3$agc@goonsquad.spies.com> <8B8625E.0BBD000016.uuout@compudata.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.netusa.net In article , Howard Siegel wrote: >david.razler@compudata.com writes: >> I forget the manufacturer, but I think >> by the time we took the LIRICS drum out of service, about half of the > ^^^^^^ >Wow. There's a name I haven't heard in about 20 years! I remember getting >a tour of the facility back in the early/mid 70's. First time I'd ever seen >a DECsystem-10, though I'd been using them for a couple of years by then, >but over leased lines. > >Remind this old addled brain... What was the machine complement back then >and when did LIRICS get broken up and begat NCODE? If memory serves, NCODE & NAG came into exsistance in the 1975-76 school year. They had setup a PDP-11/50 with RSTS-E (still can't get over BASIC written in BASIC, and getting system error messages). Back then (1975 - 1983 [RIP KA-10/50 #103]) System was 64K, 4 RP-02, DL10, PDP-8/I (communications). My memory becomes a little foggy after that. In 1978-79, in came the KS-10s. One new machine about every 8 months until there was just no more room for the KA. Thats when LIRICS donated the KA to a school for special children, who had alot of fun pulling all of that wire from the backplanes. :( [weep] -- rwarren@netusa.net Network-USA Internet Access Provider 516-543-0240-D Robert John Warren Systems Administrator, Network-USA 516-543-0234-V WWW: http://www.netusa.net/ Finger guest@netusa.net for info. 516-543-0274-F Dial-Up SLIP/CSLIP/PPP, Shell/I-Net. Telnet-In accounts. Home of Tsunami Article 1520 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!fly.compudata.com!bbs!david.razler From: david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: LIRICS (was Re: Working f Message-ID: <8B8A04C.0BBD000021.uuout@compudata.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 01:16:00 -0400 Distribution: world Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245 Reply-To: david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) References: X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.22 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.20 Lines: 55 HS>david.razler@compudata.com writes: HS>> I forget the manufacturer, but I think HS>> by the time we took the LIRICS drum out of service, about half of HS>the ^^^^^^ HS>> 256? heads were each making the sound of nails on a chalkboard, HS>> each at its own separate frequency. HS>Wow. There's a name I haven't heard in about 20 years! I remember HS>a getting tour of the facility back in the early/mid 70's. First HS>a time I'd ever seen DECsystem-10, though I'd been using them for a HS>couple of years by then, but over leased lines. HS>Remind this old addled brain... What was the machine complement back HS>then and when did LIRICS get broken up and begat NCODE? No idea. LIRICS, named by ace secretary Karen Pepe, began as fallout from the famous Huntington Project (1968-7?) and began with a PDP-8I, 16K core, and a 128K swapping disk - 12 users on genuine 103 Bell Datasets. In the summer of '71, we got our KA-10, and turned the '8 into a giant UART (DCA-680) and initially ran about 72 users, with 2 RP-02s, @128Kw core, four TU-56 dectape drives, ptr/ptp. Status symbol was having your own dectape that Karen would mount for you if she was in a good mood. By '72, we were growing, a couple of mux's to central points, some schools ordering more than one Teletype ASR-33 and acoustic modem. A 256 Kw box, DEC's newest design, appeared. By '77 we had the swapping drum, four RP-02's 1 magtape, communications equipment from hell, and a few other cabinet-size boxes filled with misc. I/O bus equipment. In 1980 I stopped by after losing a bid on the `10. I had a beat-up PDP- 9 and was desperate for B-213 modules, the ones both machines were made of, and which had an annoying habit of smoking the pull-up resistors no matter how many watt carbon resistors you put on the board. I just wanted a handful out of the drum controller, but was refused. Suffolk County BOCES, the unit that oversaw LIRICS and all county special ed services gave the entire computer to a class of mildly retarded children to teach them how to desolder. Yep, for real. I fought like hell, but couldn't even sneak a module or two off the gutted backplanes. LIRICS had switched over to four 20XX machines, a number I hear grew before someone ousted(?) long-time project operator Gerald Damm and decided that Commodore Pets were the classroom computer of the future, may the BOCES school board members of the time be wrapped in endless lengths of wire-wrap wire. dmr [david.razler@compudata.com] þCMPQwk1.429542> Article 1528 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!fly.compudata.com!bbs!david.razler From: david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: LIRICS (was Re: Worki Message-ID: <8B8C557.0BBD00002A.uuout@compudata.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 22:47:00 -0400 Distribution: world Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245 Reply-To: david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) References: <4d27u4$bet@alpha.netusa.net> X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.22 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.20 Lines: 53 RJ>In article , RJ>Howard Siegel wrote: RJ>>david.razler@compudata.com writes: RJ>>> I forget the manufacturer, but I think RJ>>> by the time we took the LIRICS drum out of service, about half of RJ>the > ^^^^^^ RJ>>Wow. There's a name I haven't heard in about 20 years! I remember RJ>getting >a tour of the facility back in the early/mid 70's. First RJ>>a time I'd ever seen DECsystem-10, though I'd been using them for a RJ>couple of years by then, >but over leased lines. RJ>> RJ>>Remind this old addled brain... What was the machine complement back RJ>then >and when did LIRICS get broken up and begat NCODE? RJ>If memory serves, NCODE & NAG came into exsistance in the 1975-76 RJ>school year. They had setup a PDP-11/50 with RSTS-E (still can't RJ>get over BASIC written in BASIC, and getting system error messages). RJ>Back then (1975 - 1983 [RIP KA-10/50 #103]) System was 64K, 4 RP-02, RJ>DL10, PDP-8/I (communications). My memory becomes a little foggy RJ>after that. That KA-10 had much more on it before it died, we had that bastard drum, four RP-02s at least one 256Kword core box, four TU-55s, a 7-track(?) magtape, etc. The PDP-8/I, son-of-Huntington Project machine was turned into the giant UART for the `10, running the DCA-680 communications interface. Anyone knowing the whereabouts of Bruce Maier, Gerry Damm or Karen Pepe, Barry (forgotten last name) as well as any of the other LIRICS regulars, please contact me. dmr RJ>In 1978-79, in came the KS-10s. One new machine about every 8 months RJ>until there was just no more room for the KA. Thats when LIRICS RJ>donated the KA to a school for special children, who had alot of fun RJ>pulling all of that wire from the backplanes. :( [weep] Actually, the problem was that the "school for special children" and LIRICS were -both- owned by the Board of Cooperative Educational Services (BOCES) of Suffolk County, NY, the reason they rejected all the bids offered on KA-10 #103. If the thing had to die, I wouldn't mind the -backplanes- going as much as I minded the modules going - (as I said, I had a PDP-9 at the time, based on the same B flipchips) (The bids ran along the lines of OK, I'll take it! as the bidders, high school and college students all, were universally poor). dmr Article 1525 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!hookup!nic.ott.hookup.net!netnews.intertel.net!maestro.intertel.net!farmergord From: farmergord@maestro.intertel.net () Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: 12 Jan 1996 19:37:08 GMT Organization: Interactive Telecom, Inc. (613) 727-5258 Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4d6d95$5ke@netnews.intertel.net> References: <4ch6u3$agc@goonsquad.spies.com> <8B8625E.0BBD000016.uuout@compudata.com> <4csbb7$4o5@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: maestro.intertel.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] John C Green Jr (JohnCGreen@aol.com) wrote: : david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) wrote: : >AK>In the late 70's my desk was about 10 feet from an RP02. If you : >AK>recall, it had a mechanical cyl lock that would set when it was on : >AK>cyl (tick). : >AK>tick, tick tick, tickticktickticktickticktick arggggggggg! : >AK>..thing drove me nuts [ snip ] : .. : "RC10 Disk/Drum System. RC10 control requires DF10 data channel. Up to : four RD10 disks and RM10B drums in any mix ... : " The RD10 disk, which is manufactured by Burroughs, can store 512,000 : 36-bit words in blocks of thirty-two words each. ... : "The RM10B drum, which is manufactured by Bryant, is smaller but : faster than the disk. It can store 345,600 words in 64-word blocks." : The RM10B spun at 5/6 speed on 50Hz. The neatest thing about the RM10B was the conical shape of the rotating drum. It spun on a vertical axis, and when the unit was powered down, the drum would 'fall' downwards after about 25 minutes, thus pulling the drum away from the heads before a full stop occured. This action was purely mechanical, triggered by the drum's speed falling below a certain rate. Best part: the action was accompanied by a _loud_ THUNK. A little spooky when the entire computer room is powered off for some reason and is totally silent. Oh yes, the condition of the drum's bearings was gauged by the time it took for the drum to retract, 17 minutes (as I recall) was the lower limit. gord (meandering down memory lane) Article 1552 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!news1.cris.com!news From: Dick Maliska Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: 25 Jan 1996 02:33:32 GMT Organization: Countryside Software Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4e6q5s$sfg@spectator.cris.com> References: <4e4100$svv@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crc5-fddi.cris.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2 (Windows; U; 16bit) The Bryant Drum was contained within a (Dec) standard 19" rack. The Burroughs Disk was contained in a blue container which (as I recall) was about 4 1/2 or so feet long by about 4 feet high by about 18" thick. -- Regards, Dick Maliska (Rmaliska@cris.com) COUNTRYSIDE SOFTWARE SERVICES. (508) 692-3124 Hardware/Software Support, Networking and Application Development. "These are the days of miracles and wonder. This is the long distance call." - Paul Simon Article 1553 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!shellx.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@shellx.best.com (J.Smith and J.O'Halloran) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Anybody save the good SPRs? Date: 25 Jan 1996 00:08:10 -0800 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 52 Message-ID: <4e7dpa$ofe@shellx.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shellx.best.com Summary: Classics? Anyone still got copies of the TOPS-10 Software Dispatch? Some of the SPRs were real classics. From: bob.christiansen@ccmail.bsis.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:53:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10 Homepage To: js-cgi@inwap.com Joe...Stumbled across your PDP-10 homepage last night, and shed a few tears. I worked at University of Queensland (Australia) when we got our first KA-10 (Serial#s 3 & 4 as I recall - 2 Series Monitor - no swapping - "Core is available but not for you!"). Worked as an operating system programmer maintaining and 'enhancing' 4-series then 5-series monitors. I wish you could post the text of some of the SPRs from the old days...they were hilarious...some great flames before flames were so named. Went to the UK in '76 to work at Time Sharing Limited (PDP-10 based bureau) as Systems Engineering Manager and worked with the Systems Concepts guys on the device drivers for the SA-10. Company was bought by ADP Network Services so moved to the US and worked 'till 1983 on various PDP-10 operating system things. (We modified the KL-10 microcode to emulate the Xerox Sigma-7 instruction set so that one of our clients could run programs for which they had lost the sourcecode - and the Sigma-7!) Got to know Wachs & Flemming well and was saddened to learn of their passing - though Jim had had a close call or two before). Keep up the good work! It is surely a labor of love! Bob Christiansen (PDP-10 '69 thru '83) From: js-cgi@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Subject: Re: PDP-10 Homepage To: bob.christiansen@ccmail.bsis.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 23:16:38 -0800 (PST) > I wish you could post the text of some of the SPRs > from the old days...they were hilarious...some great flames before > flames were so named. I ended up throwing out all the Software Dispatches just before I left CSM. I didn't even save my own SPRs. I wish I knew what happened to our microfiche. I don't know of anyone that still has the Dispatches. -- Joe Smith or work phone: (408)922-6220 CA license plate: "POPJ P," 36-bits forever! (4 Tymshare PDP-10s still going!) Humorous disclaimer: "My Amiga 3000 speaks for me." http://www.inwap.com/ Article 1554 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!bugs From: bugs@netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Subject: Re: Anybody save the good SPRs? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <4e7dpa$ofe@shellx.best.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:39:42 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: bugs@netcom17.netcom.com inwap@shellx.best.com (J.Smith and J.O'Halloran) writes: >Anyone still got copies of the TOPS-10 Software Dispatch? >Some of the SPRs were real classics. Amongst my personal treasures I still have a copy of the "security" SPR collection from the 6.03a-7.01 time frame. I will try to dig it up and see whats funny. They never did publish the "loading your own sys:pfh.exe" doesn't set the meddle bit bug :-) Also sorry to hear about JMF. Back when 7.02 came out he spent a little bit of time trying to help me get it to run on the KL10 model A we had. (KL1059). Even though 7.02 wasn't officially supported on the model A he was willing to make some suggestions and listen to the problems that I was having. You just don't see that kind of developer commitment these days (except in the free OS'es now). It got so bad that they eventually would not allow these guys to attend the Decus symposia! :-) Regards, Mark Hittinger Netcom/Dallas bugs@freebsd.netcom.com Article 1569 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-30? Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:34:12 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4ednvn$2mm@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <8B9819E.0BBD00003D.uuout@compudata.com> <4ebp82$9l0@nntp4.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sj34-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 27 9:39:03 AM PST 1996 davidb@ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts) wrote: >david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) writes: >>[Startup to design PDP-30, a PDP-10 compatible.] >You must be referring to XKL, Inc. and the TOED-1. More likely he's referring to the SC Group SC-40, a PDP-10 clone. However the SC group is not a startup, it's a 30 year old small business. Mike Levitt started doing business in Cambridge MA as Systems Concepts in about '66 and Stewart Nelson soon joined him. They moved the then 4 man company to San Francisco CA in '70. They moved to Reno NV in about '91 and renamed the company the SC Group. One claim to fame was the SA10 [PDP-10 memory and I/O bus to IBM Selector Channel bus converter] which was installed on at least 10% of all PDP-10s. From their Web page: The SC-40 is a very high-performance system. Its CPU can run at an average rate up to 8 times that of the DEC KL10, yet a complete system -- CPU, memory, and I/O channels -- fits in a standard 20-inch cabinet. The Web site has a much longer description. Contact information: Phone: 702-826-7100 Fax: 702-826-7133 E-mail: info@scgroup.com Web: http://www.scgroup.com/ Address: The SC Group 1575 DeLucchi Lane, Suite 224 Reno, NV 89502 [Disclaimer: I was employee 5 of Systems Concepts, the first hired after the move to San Francisco. Although I haven't worked there in over 25 years I'm still friends of the principals.] - - - NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS - - - Internet Marketing and Business Development 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com Article 1566 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:34:03 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4ednvf$2mm@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4e4100$svv@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4e6q5s$sfg@spectator.cris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sj34-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 27 9:38:55 AM PST 1996 Dick Maliska wrote: >The Bryant Drum was contained within a (Dec) standard 19" rack. >The Burroughs Disk was contained in a blue container which (as I recall) >was about 4 1/2 or so feet long by about 4 feet high by about 18" thick. PDP-10 engineering was in 5-5. Building 5 has a loading dock on 5-4. Trucks used to bump the building pretty hard. My office was 5-5 Pole 41A almost directly opposite the loading dock. One day I had both my feet up on the legs of my wheeled chair. When a truck hit the building moved at least an inch under me. Anyway before I joined Digital in JUN68 a memo had already been written saying that all Burroughs Disks should be aligned with the loading dock to prevent head crashes. Eventually Digital stopped using the loading dock. This eliminated the possibility that the 120' x 600' 1905 vintage post and lintel wood frame and brick construction building would be pushed into the mill pond. - - - NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS - - - Internet Marketing and Business Development 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com Article 1596 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.supranet.com!news2.net99.net!news.cais.net!primus.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!pgh!powell From: powell@pgh.nauticom.net (Reed Powell) Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 04:40:59 GMT References: <4e4100$svv@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4e6q5s$sfg@spectator.cris.com> <4edc7u$g0s@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> Organization: Nauticom - Internet Access Provider X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 54 Timely tidbit, discovvered as I was looking for old SPRs for one of the other threads here: I have the script for Peter Hurley's History of The DEC-10/20 speach which he gave at the fall '84 20th anniversary event. There is a page with the following highlights: (SHOW THE DISK PICTURE) 1) KA-10 RD10 BURROUGHS DISK SINGLE PLATTER - FIXED HEAD DISK TRUCKS HITTING THE BUILDING CAUSED THE HEADS TO CRASH ACTUALLY MEASURED BUILDING MOVEMENT AT SEVERAL INCHES (IE, HUNG PENCIL ON STRING FROM CEILING) 2) GIANT BRYANT A) WE CHOSE DUAL ACTUATOR MODEL B) NEVER RELIABLE C) DIAGNOSTIC COULD WALK IT AROUND THE ROOM D) MADE NICE COFFEE TABLES - GREAT SPIRAL ETCHES another page a few slides later (this is unrelated to the topic at hand) had the following bit of humor: EVOLUTION OF A NAME 1) VIROS OR VIRUS (JOHN LENG) 2) MANAGEMENT SAYS TO CHANGE THE NAME TO TRICK THR RUMOR MILL 3) SNARK - FROM A POEM BY LEWIS G. CARROL 4) KRANS - WE DECIDED TO ENCRYPT "SNARK" UNFORTUNATELY, IN SWEDISH KRANS MEANS FUNERAL WREATH 5) SNARK - SO BACK TO SNARK 6) TOPS-20 - MARKETING DEMONSTRATES ITS IMAGINATION -reed Alan H. Martin (amartin@denton.zko.dec.com) wrote: : In article <4e6q5s$sfg@spectator.cris.com> Dick Maliska writes: : >The Bryant Drum was contained within a (Dec) standard 19" rack. : > : >The Burroughs Disk was contained in a blue container which (as I recall) : >was about 4 1/2 or so feet long by about 4 feet high by about 18" thick. : Well, that settles that. The Stevens "faha" stood alone in a corner. By the : time I came on the scene it was surrounded by 4 posts holding theater : crowd-control ropes to keep people from bumping into it, although I don't : remember the tale about what prompted *that* innovation. : /AHM/THX : -- : Alan Howard Martin AMartin@TLE.ENet.DEC.Com Article 1598 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet From: brider@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Mitchell") Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Message-ID: Organization: Compulink Information eXchange References: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:10:03 GMT X-News-Software: Ameol Lines: 30 My memories of the Burroughs disk are as follows:- At Hatfield Polytechnic, in the UK, an RC10 was delivered with the original KA10 and the instructions said that it should be protected and mounted facing North-South, or East-West (I wish I could remember which!). So, it was stood in the corner of the room, out of line with the other cabinets and we guessed that it must have something to do with the large, vertical magnetic disk interacting with the Earth's magnetic field (!!). A strong fence was built around it. Later I heard the story that the development lab in Maynard was on floor 5 of building 5 and, if you know the layout of the Mill, you will know that building 5 was next to a cliff and there was an entrance and loading bay from the top of this cliff directly into floor 5. Apparently, a truck reversed up to the loading bay and hit the building, causing the wooden structure to shake and all the heads on the RC10's in the lab touched the disks! From then on all RC10's were oriented so that they were perpendicular to the loading bay and these instructions found their way to the UK where they were applied to the Hatfield system! In a similar vein, the instructions that were sent to Hatfield Polytechnic for dealing with a system crash at this time (1970) was that we should take a dump of memory on a Dectape and leave it on Tony Wach's desk.... Is it true that Jim Flemming and Tony Wachs are no longer with us? I read, recently, that Peter Conklin has died, and David Stone passed away a few years ago. I hope there isn't a curse on Dec-10 people.... By, the way, I am Chris Mitchell and I worked on 10's and 20' in the UK and Europe for DEC in the 70's and 80's. Article 1600 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!winternet.com!news.minn.net!network.com!news From: wex@bytex.network.com (Paul M. Wexelblat) Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.191.236.14 Message-ID: Sender: news@network.com Organization: NSC/BYTEX/STK X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2 References: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:51:46 GMT Lines: 57 brider@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Mitchell") wrote: >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 >Path: network.com!msc.edu!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!peer-news.britain.eu.net!demon!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet >From: brider@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Mitchell") >Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En >Message-ID: >Organization: Compulink Information eXchange >References: >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:10:03 GMT >X-News-Software: Ameol >Lines: 30 > . . > >Is it true that Jim Flemming and Tony Wachs are no longer with us? I >read, recently, that Peter Conklin has died, and David Stone passed away >a few years ago. I hope there isn't a curse on Dec-10 people.... > >By, the way, I am Chris Mitchell and I worked on 10's and 20' in the UK >and Europe for DEC in the 70's and 80's. I certainly hope there's no curse on us :-> Of the other few -10 monitor group folks I know or know of... Ernie Socci is still around (worked in the CMU scheduler) Don Lewine it too Bob Clements too I worked on SCNSER and the IPCF stuff for a few years and put the ANF-10 software into the monitor. (I also have/had some code in Tenex (at BBN) and TOPS-20 at DEC) I find I have some obscure -10 stuff from Ed Services (A couple of 10 or 20 Monitor internals courses and a -10 networks course.) Is there a definitive location that wants to save this stuff? (I also have the Digital Song book Featuring such hits as: I'm a PDP-10 Wizard (tune: Yankee Doodle Dandy) Crash's song (for Donaleen) Build-Sell-Fix (wiffenpoof - the Support services Anthem) and many more :-> Oh Yes, Ralph Alter is on the net too, (PDP-6 TECO) I'm Paul Wexelblat (the pmw at the top of those listings from 5.02 to 7.01) {More core available, but not for you) ...wex wex@cs.uml.edu -- ...wex Article 1607 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En In-Reply-To: stevens_j@eisner.decus.org's message of Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:49:32 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:53:31 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com In article <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> stevens_j@eisner.decus.org (Jack H. Stevens) writes: >In article , wex@bytex.network.com (Paul M. Wexelblat) > writes: >> I find I have some obscure -10 stuff from Ed Services >> (A couple of 10 or 20 Monitor internals courses and >> a -10 networks course.) >> Is there a definitive location that wants to save this stuff? >How about trying The Computer Museum, in Boston? (also at http://www.tcm.org) Bad idea. The Computer Museum has buried any interesting (read "36-bit") hardware. They were given, for example, the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory PDP-6 in 1984, after it was shown at the Fall DECUS Symposia (for the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing). It has never been made available for public view; as far as anyone can tell, it has disappeared from the face of the earth. So even if they expressed interest, I'd be highly dubious about the chances of anything like this surviving very long at the Computer Museum. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1621 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!news From: jeverett@wwa.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Nostalgia--PDP10 Reference Handbook Date: 20 Feb 1996 16:36:38 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Chicagoland Internet Services (http://www.wwa.com) Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4gctam$d7i@kirin.wwa.com> References: <4gcm7b$o0v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool1-039.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 In article <4gcm7b$o0v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jmfbah@aol.com says... > >I was going through some of Jim's stuff and ran across this manual (the >second edition...not the phone book). Remember the following? LOADER, >SRCCOM, BINCOM, TENDMP, FUDGE2, and GLOB. > >/BAH Yup Barb, I remember all of them. Reminds me of a story. Jim and I (along with Kerry Bensman) were working on a thing called the Real-Time Monitor back in 1969 (I think). There was a recession on and DEC had just gone a full quarter without delivering a single PDP-10. We got a contract to build a special configuration for ORELA (Oak Ridge Electron Linear Accelerator?), and Jim got pulled to work on that project. At that time LOADER was the only way to link the monitor, but it required more total core than it took to just run the system; so DEC had loaned additional boxes of core to several sites so they could maintain their systems. Remember, this was before virtual memory. Someone figured we could pick up some revenue by providing a way to load the monitor without the additional memory. If we got around this problem we could ask those sites to give back the loaner memory; the assumption being that rather than give it up they would pay for it. So I got pulled from the Real-Time Monitor project to make LOADER work with less core. I turned LOADER into a kludge called MONLOD, which built the load image on disk instead of in core. Performance sucked, but it did the trick. As I recall, generated several hundred thousand dollars in incremental revenue at a time it was sorely needed. The Real-Time Monitor never did get built. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) Article 1625 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!homer.alpha.net!news.jersey.net!news.win.bright.net!news.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news1.sunbelt.net!nntp.develop.bsis.com!usenet From: Bob Christiansen Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Nostalgia--PDP10 Reference Handbook Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:48:47 -0500 Organization: Broadway & Seymour Lines: 13 Message-ID: <312B3EDF.D0E@bsis.com> References: <4gcm7b$o0v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.116.23.64 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) In going through my archives, I found the course materials from my original PDP-10 monitor and engineering course in 1970. It includes the Program Logic Manual, which is a compilation of the 'Ten Time-Sharing Internal Memoranda' issued in 1969, complete with hand-drawn logic flow-charts drawn with a warped template. It also has a copy of Tom Hastings' MONITOR.OPR (Monitor Assembly & Load Instructions)dated 9 JAN 1970, still with my incredulous annotations. The purple ink from the spirit copier they were produced on is fading fast. I may need to store them in nitrogen? Perhaps in the Library of Congress? Bob Article 1624 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!lead.zk3.dec.com!zk2nws.zko.dec.com!denton.zko.dec.com!amartin From: amartin@denton.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: 21 Feb 1996 13:12:21 GMT Organization: DEC Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: denton.zko.dec.com In article alderson@netcom.com writes: >In article <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> stevens_j@eisner.decus.org >(Jack H. Stevens) writes: ... >>How about trying The Computer Museum, in Boston? (also at http://www.tcm.org) > >Bad idea. The Computer Museum has buried any interesting (read "36-bit") >hardware. They were given, for example, the Stanford Artificial Intelligence >Laboratory PDP-6 in 1984, after it was shown at the Fall DECUS Symposia (for >the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing). > >It has never been made available for public view; as far as anyone can tell, >it has disappeared from the face of the earth. I'm hazy on dates, but if the 6 in question was donated before the museum's move from MR2 to Boston, you ain't likely to see it in one piece ever again. They had a garage sale of unwanted items in the MR1 cafeteria one Saturday before the move, and were selling a PDP-6 module-by-module. An S6205K "Arithmetic Registers" module (1-bit slice of AR/MQ/MB/) went for $7, autographed by Gordon Bell. I asked him whether read-in mode was implemented as a diode array encoding instructions. He said no, and kindly recommended the 6205 as a particularly central module to have, instead. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@TLE.ENet.DEC.Com Article 1629 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En In-Reply-To: ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk's message of 22 Feb 1996 13:24:01 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4ghqph$kk4@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:12:21 GMT Lines: 13 Sender: alderson@netcom15.netcom.com In article <4ghqph$kk4@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) writes: >... a machine as rare (I guess) as a PDP6. It was indeed rare: Only 23 were ever produced before KO shut down the product line. As far as I know, the Stanford AI Lab -6 was the only one still around in 1984... -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1630 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!nwnews.wa.com!news.halcyon.com!Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:02:38 -0800 Organization: Pandamonium Reigns Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panda.wa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> On 21 Feb 1996, Alan H. Martin wrote: > I'm hazy on dates, but if the 6 in question was donated before the museum's > move from MR2 to Boston, you ain't likely to see it in one piece ever again. > They had a garage sale of unwanted items in the MR1 cafeteria one Saturday > before the move, and were selling a PDP-6 module-by-module. An S6205K > "Arithmetic Registers" module (1-bit slice of AR/MQ/MB/) went > for $7, autographed by Gordon Bell. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! They killed our 6!!!! That PDP-6 was in production use at Stanford up until 1980. To the best of my knowledge it was the last functioning PDP-6 in the world. It was the third CPU in a tri-processor KL/KA/PDP-6 system. The main function of the PDP-6 system was to control the DACs and Samson synthesizer for the Music group. It had this huge memory box for its 64K of memory. I remember that its OS was called Mule. When SAIL moved from the DC Power building to Margaret Jacks Hall, the Music group and the PDP-6 stayed. However, the PDP-6 was retired and they bought a Foonly to control the stuff. It languished there until 1984, when it was donated to the Computer Museum during the DECUS 20th Anniversary ceremony. I remember that one of its register bits was stuck, but the hackers present were able to concoct a neat light show program that worked around the stuck bit. It is a terrible, horrible tragedy to hear that DEC's infamous hatred of the PDP-6 (reportedly, when a PDP-6 was traded in for a KA, field service would crack the PDP-6's backplane to make sure it was never used again) came to the extent of destroying the final instance of one, and a museum piece at that. The 6205 board is a historic (hysteric?) board, and very nicely represents the PDP-6. It's even more bizarre than the KA's B138 module. Bell wrote that the 6205 was the reason why DEC didn't use large boards for many years afterwards; it was a nightmare to service. Perhaps this is why DEC wanted so much to destroy all PDP-6s... ;-( I have a 6205 from Berkeley's PDP-6, as well as a couple dozen B138s from SAIL's KA. There is no way that I'll part with my 6205, but I'll be happy to let go of some B138s together with photocopies of the prints. Although much more common than 6205s, the B138 has its own interesting history. Make an offer. ;-) -- Mark -- DoD #0105, R90/6 pilot FAX: (206) 842-0758 ICBM: N 47.36'24" W 122.34'08" TOPS-20: A Great Improvement Over Its Successors Article 1660 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:51:30 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 159 Message-ID: <4h150k$gf2@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4ghqph$kk4@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <4gokic$qgb@caesar.ultra.net> <4gsb13$p1o@i <4gsvqj$af7@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca13-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Feb 28 12:50:28 AM PST 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) wrote: >JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) writes: > >>It is impractical to keep old equipment working beyond its >>original design life. If we had a working museum with >>George Washington's >Absolutely false. And I speak from experience. Last week I >restored a 1965 (the same sort of vintage as the machines >being discussed here) Hewlett-Packard frequency counter. >That instrument will now be pressed into service in my >workshop. All the components in it, apart from things >like case panels that never wear out, are available with no >problems. I suspect suitable spares are available for PDP6 >parts. The problem is with skilled technicians, not parts. The PDP-6 was a dog. It took the entire design team (logic designers Gordon Bell and Alan Kotok and circuit designers Joe Sutton and Pat Sullivan (circuit designers don't get the respect of logic designers, but that's another story)) a year on the road to make them work in the first place. After they settled down DEC hired superior people (such as Bob Clements, an MIT degreed Electrical Engineer, who later was the project engineer of the KA10) to maintain them. Bob once spent 8 hours finding a marginal 6205 module in the machine at Brookhaven National Labs. People of that talent will not make a career of keeping a PDP-6 at TCM operational. In the case of your frequency counter we are talking about: * a trivial device manufactured by a company known for its conservative design * built in large numbers * well documented with a theory of operation manual * being restored by an experienced engineer who is not being paid for his time The PDP-6 had inadequate circuit design: * transistors stacked as high as 5 deep i.e. 5 Vce drops to ground for a grounded signal * the legendary 6205 card * the ludicrous connectors on the handle end of the 6205 * AC coupling of the carry bit of the adder plus: * every wire in the machine hand soldered on both ends even though wire-wrap had been in general use for several years at other companies * DEC was a startup with under 200 people when the project was started; they were naive and didn't understand the difficulty of the project they were undertaking The PDP-6 was a disaster. If Digital had taken orders for 50 they would have been driven bankrupt. TCM would be unable to maintain a PDP-6 even if they wanted to. Perhaps I should have said: It is impractical to keep obscure, poorly designed, complicated, old equipment working beyond its original design life. >Think of all those wonderful old steam engines that are run >one weekend a month (or even more frequently). They're over >100 years old in a lot of cases, but they are still >maintained. OK, so things like bearings are not original any >more, but surely having the machine working is worth more >than that. A steam engine is a piece of cake to keep working compared to a PDP-6. Most operational steam engines are kept working by rail fans who volunteer their time. Some are kept working by profit making companies. In an extreme example of profitability the Silverton--Durango line pulls 10 cars with perhaps 400 people paying about $30 each to ride about 8 hours round trip all Summer long. 400 * 30 * 120 = $1.44 million. If I could figure out how to get that kind of revenue from having a PDP-6 operational I'd try hard to find someone to make a career of keeping it up. Most tourist railroads don't make money, close, and sell their rolling stock; most tourist railroads run mostly diesels. Out here in San Jose we have 5 beautifully restored trolleys that operate Summer weekends. They were some of a large number used as a shanty town in the depression and abandoned ever since. They were restored by trolley fans as a labor of love. >>hatchet being used daily to quarter cherry logs we'd be on >>our 10th head and 50th handle by now. Would it still be >>George Washington's hatchet? >Firstly, some computer parts do not wear out, and are not >going to need to be replaced. In that category are circuit >boards, connectors (unless they're continually being plugged >in and unplugged), case parts, chassis parts, probably >resistors, etc. So you will end up with a substantially >original machine. >The components that are removed can be kept, labeled, and >stored either inside the machine, or with the documentation. >I've done that when restoring a rare machine on many >occasions. Then you can go back to the >original system if you want to (but it won't work). Again the problem is the lack of skilled technicians, not parts. >Secondly, which of these would you prefer - and remember, >we're talking about the last known example of a machine, and >it's probably been repaired over its working life so that >the components are not all original : >a) The machine as delivered to the museum (i.e. as it last > ran, probably with a fault that caused it to be finally > switched off), probably with some non-original components > put there in normal maintenance. It is never > turned on, and probably wouldn't work if it was. > >b) The machine as delivered to the museum, but with faulty > components replaced by identical, but more modern ones. > The people doing the restoration learn how the machine > operates, and carry this knowledge onwards to the next > generation. The machine is either run daily, or on > special open days. > >c) The machine is dismantled, and the parts are sold to > members of the public who want a piece of 'computer > history' on their bookshelves. Most of these people > wouldn't know what a PDP6 was if it lept up and bit them > :-) Netcom must have missed the post making the original claim that TCM is selling parts from a(n almost) complete CDC-6600, thought to be the last surviving example. If it's true then I'd be amazed, saddened, and outraged. The 6600 was a masterpiece. >>I believe the BCM does an excellent job of preservation. >>It does a [poor job of showing its historical collection]. > >You have a right to your opinion, but I disagree with it. > >I will never donate any of my collection to the BCM or any >affiliated organisation. We agree to disagree. - - - NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS - - - Internet Marketing and Business Development 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com Article 1663 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!news From: jeverett@wwa.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: 28 Feb 1996 17:07:02 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Chicagoland Internet Services (http://www.wwa.com) Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4h223m$8eh@kirin.wwa.com> References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4ghqph$kk4@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <4gokic$qgb@caesar.ultra.net> <4gsb13$p1o@i <4gsvqj$af7@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <4h150k$gf2@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool2-057.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 In article <4h150k$gf2@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, JCGreen@ix.netcom.com says... > >The problem is with skilled technicians, not parts. The PDP-6 >was a dog. It took the entire design team (logic designers >Gordon Bell and Alan Kotok and circuit designers Joe Sutton >and Pat Sullivan (circuit designers don't get the respect of >logic designers, but that's another story)) a year on the >road to make them work in the first place. After they settled >down DEC hired superior people (such as Bob Clements, an MIT >degreed Electrical Engineer, who later was the project >engineer of the KA10) to maintain them. Bob once spent 8 >hours finding a marginal 6205 module in the machine at >Brookhaven National Labs. Let me back up what John says. I may be one of the very few people who monitor this group who actually worked on a PDP-6, in fact on the development -6 in Maynard; first floor, building 12 (I think that was the building number), right across the hall from KO's office. With all the resources we had at our disposal, it still was everything DEC could do to keep the damn thing up. I think for a period of a couple of years it was Leo Landry's career to keep the thing running. He had backup from people like Kotok and Clements (Gordon was by this time at CMU), and Dave Gross, Tom Eggars, etc. Still the thing crashed multiple times per day. Granted that many of the outages were software related, particularly while we were developing the swapper, but enough were hardware failures to give some indication of the magnitude of the projected effort to keep one functional. While it might be nice from a nostalgic point of view to see a real PDP-6 running, I have to reluctantly agree it would be somewhat impractical. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) Article 1646 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Computer Museum Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:33:26 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4gscok$9ls@cloner3.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca30-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Feb 26 5:32:04 AM PST 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 carl@1unique.com (Carl Baltrunas & Cherie Marinelli 1.6v2) wrote: >In article <8BB550B.0BBD000076.uuout@compudata.com> (alt.sys.pdp10), >david.razler@compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) writes: >> AR>awolf@loa.com (Keith Pepin/AmigaWolf/VAXwolf/DECwolf) writes: >> >> >Well, least time I was in Boston and visited the Museum, I was rushed through >it, but I can certainly say that I wasn't even tempted to bother going back >to see what I missed. I was very disappointed the last time I was there too. I preferred it when the PDP-1 (with Spacewar), CDC-6600, Illicac IV, and SAGE were on display. >The San Francisco Exploritorium has more interesting COMPUTER stuff, and it >is a hands-on place with mostly science stuff and not computer stuff. >Maybe it would be better to cultivate the Smithsonian as a place to donate >a few boxes to in order to see them preserved. Even if you don't see them >that often, you at least know that they won't be cut up and sold as trinkets. The BCM has an excellent historical collection. They do a lousy job of displaying it. As has been reported the San Jose Mercury News had a recent article claiming the BCM was searching for space in Silicon Valley to display its historical collection. I'll be in line on opening day. >Someone there should be easily convinced that this is a treasure of history. >At least in the computer field. Like a Sigma 7, an SDS 930 or 940, PDP-6, >KL-10, etc... ome of the original timesharing machines. The original timesharing machines were MIT (modified 7094), BB&N (PDP-1) and Rand Corporation (PDP-1). The first vendor supplied timesharing was much later--1964, Digital PDP-6. - - - NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS - - - Internet Marketing and Business Development 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com Article 1668 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!pfarrell From: pfarrell@netcom.com (Pat Farrell) Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <4gsvqj$af7@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <4h150k$gf2@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4h223m$8eh@kirin.wwa.com> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:50:25 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: pfarrell@netcom3.netcom.com In article <4h223m$8eh@kirin.wwa.com> jeverett@wwa.com (John Everett) writes: >In article <4h150k$gf2@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, JCGreen@ix.netcom.com says... >>The problem is with skilled technicians, not parts. The PDP-6 >>was a dog. > With all the resources we >had at our disposal, it still was everything DEC could do to keep the damn >thing up. While I never worked on the ancient iron, I started on a KA-1040. I clearly remember being told that the KA10 was designed to replace the PDP-6 as a maintenance redesign, not for performance. It wasn't clear that the KA-10 was any faster at execution, and it duplicated the 6's design with only a small number of new instructions or features. My understanding was that the KA-10 was designed as a PDP-6 that was practical. Cheaper to build and much cheaper to run and keep up. No one who ever even looked at a KA or even KL backplane would expect all that wirewrap to work (1) for a long time or (2) if you _ever_ moved it. BTW, I was also told by DEC sources at the time of the KL's announcement that the cost of the PDP-11/40 front end was less than the cost to buy the switches and wire them on an KI. Since a KL would have required lots more than the KI, it was much cheaper to the the 11. Too bad, I still like blinking lights. Pat Pat Farrell grad student http://www.isse.gmu.edu/students/pfarrell Infor. Systems and Software Engineering, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA PGP key available via finger or request #include standard.disclaimer Article 1674 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 04:10:52 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 145 Message-ID: <4h5tao$9i1@cloner4.netcom.com> References: <1996Feb14.164932.1@eisner.decus.org> <4gf5nl$kun@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4ghqph$kk4@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <4gokic$qgb@caesar.ultra.net> <4gsb13$p1o@i <4gsvqj$af7@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> <4h150k$gf2@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4h4uef$qjr@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca12-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Feb 29 8:10:00 PM PST 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) [who incorrectly attributed this to me JCG] writes: >Firstly, some good news that hopefully will let us get a >good night's sleep again. >I have been informed in private e-mail that the Boston >Computer Museum still has an intact PDP6 and an intact >CDC6600 (serial number 1, I believe!). Thus a lot of the >earlier comments on what the computer museum was doing are >quite simply incorrect. > >[Discussions on preservation techniques and whether machines > can be kept running should continue, but I think we can all > stop flaming the BCM.] >JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) [this is where my >stuff really starts JCG] writes: >>engineer of the KA10) to maintain them. Bob once spent 8 >>hours finding a marginal 6205 module in the machine at >>Brookhaven National Labs. > >One thing that helps is that the available test equipment has >improved massively since the days of the PDP-6. Digital >storage 'scopes are relatively common these days, and are very >useful for tracing timing problems in older machines. Remember >that the first logic analyser came out in about 1972. PDP-6 was so sensitive (putting a scope probe on a pin could frequently make a problem go away) that Alan Kotok seriously considered issuing an ECO to add a 1" twisted-pair to nowhere on a pin pair as a TINY capacitor to simulate a scope probe. >[Suggests volunteers could keep PDP-6 up.] Read jeverett@wwa.com (John Everett) <4h223m$8eh@kirin.wwa.com> post in this thread to get another opinion of this possibility. >[Some volunteers are VERY good.] >>[problems included ...] >>* the legendary 6205 card > >Could you enlighten me on this, please. Mechanics: The 6205 was about 10.5" x 12", a DEC System Module. It had 2 connectors of about 20 pins on EACH end. There were 37 of them in adjacent slots. The handles were connected by two bus-bars of 20 wires. They were soft, like 1/16" by 1/8" lead bars and could be peeled back to remove a module. They totaled about 1480 connections. The life expectancy was about 10 peelings. Logic: The PDP-5 had been successful with a pair of cards implementing a 1-bit slice of AC, MQ, MA, MB, adder, shifter. The PDP-6 team decided to go one better. The 6205 on a single card had 1-bit slice of AC, MQ, MA, MB, adder, and shifter. It was a disaster. AC carry: the carry propagation from one bit to the next was an AC pulse, not a DC level. Some 6205s were noisier than others. You gradually tuned a PDP-6 to have the noisiest modules to the left where their noise would have fewer bits to propagate their noise to. If too much noise propagated a carry would be seen and added when none was intended. The 6205 had a price of $1K. What to do with a flaky 6205: * The production technicians tended to throw them out the window and into the mill pond * When discussing 6205 problems with me the national service manager opened a locked drawer of his desk that contained about 25 6205s he didn't ever want to see in the field again. Knowing they had a list price of $1K he couldn't bring himself to throw them in the mill pond * One time Bob Clements spent over 4 hours finding a noisy 6205. Having been the longest time he had spent finding a problem to date he wrote on it "NFG RCC". Some months later he spent 8 hours finding a noisy 6205 in the Brookhaven machine. When he finally removed it he noticed the notation "NFG RCC" on the card. A few seconds later he lost his balance and the card split in two over his knee. He never encountered the module in a machine again * There are lots of ways to skin a cat >>* every wire in the machine hand soldered on both ends even >> though wire-wrap had been in general use for several years >> at other companies > >Why is that a major problem? A lot of hand-soldered stuff of >that period is still working. It depends on the number of solder joints. The PDP-6 type 166 processor was 4 19" bays 6' tall. The Fast Accumulators (16 36- bit registers) were another bay. That's a lot more solder joints than a Tektronix Type 547 scope. Also if you've got a flaky design it helps to know the exact routing of every signal wire. With Gardner-Denver wire-wrap robots you know they're all the same. With human assemblers you don't. >>Perhaps I should have said: >> It is impractical to keep obscure, poorly designed, >> complicated, old equipment working beyond its >> original design life. > >I don't see why volunteers can't maintain the PDP-6. If you >are worried that enthusiasts can't do a good job, well then I >can assure you that you're wrong. And there are enthusiasts >maintaining one-of-a-kind machines already. Paid professionals couldn't keep PDP-6s working when they were new. Enthusiasts would have a very difficult time 30 years later. See: jeverett@wwa.com (John Everett) <4h223m$8eh@kirin.wwa.com> for a second, concurring opinion. >>Netcom must have missed the post making the original claim >>that TCM is selling parts from a(n almost) complete CDC-6600, >>thought to be the last surviving example. If it's true then >>I'd be amazed, saddened, and outraged. The 6600 was a >>masterpiece. > >I still disagree with selling off spares in a gift shop. There >are several issues here : I've since confirmed: * Lawrence Livermore Labs donated CDC-6600 #1 to BCM * BCM loaned it back to LLL, it having not moved * It was later crated by LLL and is still on LLL premises If BCM succeeds in building a Silicon Valley facility for adults then I assume it will be moved there. BCM has been selling 6600 parts for a long time; I bought a logic module about a decade ago. - - - NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS - - - Internet Marketing and Business Development 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com Article 1745 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!usenet From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: PDP-6 vs Piper Cub [take two] Date: 9 Mar 1996 14:46:54 GMT Organization: Carbon & Silicon Alliance Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4hs5ku$dct@caesar.ultra.net> References: <4hevqa$oj7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4hqk0o$noe@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; Linux 1.2.1 i586) X-URL: news:4hqk0o$noe@zk2nws.zko.dec.com Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1745 alt.folklore.computers:54792 amartin@denton.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin) wrote: >In article <4hevqa$oj7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) writes: >>As I've said and John Everett has confirmed, the problem of >>maintaining a 32 year old PDP-6 is not lack of parts, it is >>lack of skilled technicians. ... > >Could someone clear something up for me? If I recall correctly, Al >Blackington once told me years ago that the PDP-6 was a bitch to keep running >because, in marked contrast to all the -10's (and how many other PDP's?), it >was an *asynchronous* design. In particular, it was quite prone to wedge in >the middle of instructions waiting for a dropped signal that was never going >to arrive. > >So, would one of the people who actually worked on the hardware like to >confirm, clarify or refute this for me? > /AHM/THX To quote directly from the "Programmed Data Processor-6 Handbook" (DEC pub. nr. F-65, dated 8/64 top of page 23 under "TIMING": "PDP-6 processors are not synchronized by a clock. Therefore, PDP-6 systems run asynchronously with as high a duty factor as possible for each unit." I guess that answers that question; I'd been curious myself, so I just looked it up. Thankfully, I'd kept a copy of the "Handbook" I found at work! Even synchronous processors can wedge between time-states; if a condition to pre-enable the next time-state is broken, said state will never be entered with the result of a hang. Finding these problems could be a real joy. Microprogrammed systems are less susceptible to faults like this, but I have seen them vector off uncontrollably into the microstore.... -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@swec.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| Article 1770 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: doug@ss1.digex.net (Doug Humphrey) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: PDP-6/10 Date: 12 Mar 1996 14:20:27 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA: 800-969-9090 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4i4ipr$sjq@ss1.digex.net> References: <4hevqa$oj7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4hqk0o$noe@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <3145680C.61A500ED@swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ss1.digex.net Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1770 alt.folklore.computers:55148 > I'd like to take this opportunity to retract a _big_ blunder I >made earlier in stating that the KA-10 was a synchronous design. >Having checked my book (KA-10 Central Processor Handbook), it states >explicitly that the KA-10 is _Asynchronous_ in operation. My most >humble aplogies for the erroneous information. > > I will agree with Tom, though, that the async designs were not all >that bad to work on. If the machine in question had a decent diagnostic >indicator panel (and the KA certainly did), it was remarkably easy >to see where the machine hung up (what instruction, what address, >what time-state, and in many instances what data) by examining the >lights. Of course, we all know that the most important feature required for this type of debugging was the *lamp test* button - which the KA was not really equiped with (well, you could make them all light, but there wasn't a button to do it on mine (SN 9 and 44, maybe they added it later?)) or, later, the upgrade LED's... Yes, lights are sorely missed. Of course, with the speed of current systems they would just be a blur anyway... Doug Article 1763 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!usenet From: tk@ai.mit.edu (Tom Knight) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: PDP-6/KA documentation Date: 11 Mar 1996 22:57:44 GMT Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <4hs35d$3re@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ht11t$i6f@caesar.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: watt.ai.mit.edu In-reply-to: "Carl R. Friend"'s message of 9 Mar 1996 22:34:37 GMT Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1763 alt.folklore.computers:55062 >>> "Carl" == Carl R Friend writes: Carl> I'm moping for exactly the opposite reason. When I departed my Carl> first employment (where I was lucky enough to work on -10s) I Carl> "willed" my (somewhat) personalised documentation to the bloke I Carl> thought best to carry the torch. Included in those archives Carl> were things I dearly wish I had today, and have a sightly Carl> greater appreciation of today (detailed KA, KI, and KL-10 timing Carl> readouts, for example). These are also things that, I imagine, Carl> are gone today. I've got complete print sets, hardware manuals, and card schematics for both the PDP-6 and KA-10. Anyone who REALLY wants a set can get one from me. If enough people want them, I'll scan them and put them on the net. On another topic, I installed the "magic/more magic" switch on the MIT-AI PDP-6 which was mentioned here recently. Originally, the switch was labelled "magic" and implemented a now-forgotten special mode in the machine (I think it had to do with allowing user mode I/O instructions for device codes > 700, if I recall). The feature was permanently removed, the switch stayed, and someone later labelled the other position "more magic." At this point, it was disconnected, except for a wire to ground. I think the story from there is apocryphal. Article 1781 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!racer.tay.dec.com!dave From: dave@racer.tay.dec.com (dave) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-6 vs Piper Cub [take two] Date: 12 Mar 1996 15:19:47 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4i44mj$7ug@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> References: <4hevqa$oj7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4hqk0o$noe@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> <4hs5ku$dct@caesar.ultra.net> Reply-To: dave@racer.tay.dec.com (dave) NNTP-Posting-Host: racer.tay.dec.com X-Newsreader: mxrn 6.18-32 Tom Knight wrote: > With the > asynchronous design, you usually could locate the problem by looking > at the lights, which would show what subroutine the logic was in, and > thus, where the pulse had been lost. Lights were not just for the hardware folks. I remember spending quite a bit of time figuring out where software errors were, and what a machine was doing just by looking at the lights on the CPU of the KA. It was really nice, and quite easy, once one got the "feel" of the system. Of the two KA's I did most of my work on, they did seem to have their little differences, certainly a personality. Dave, who's last KA was #1 in the Doomsday lab, right before it was scrapped. (1979??) Article 1803 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster From: 71531.1503@compuserve.com (dave avery) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Computer Museum (long) Date: 15 Mar 1996 03:14:12 GMT Organization: the Avia Group Lines: 32 Message-ID: <4iana4$kec@dub-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> References: <4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu><4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <4i6ka9$e9s@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: 71531.1503@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dd54-170.compuserve.com X-Newsreader: NeoLogic News for OS/2 [version: 4.5 YO Beta] Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1803 alt.folklore.computers:55472 In message <4i6ka9$e9s@newsbf02.news.aol.com> - jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH)13 Mar 1996 08:58:33 -0500 writes: :> :>One of the stories of the PDP-10 Adventure game..... :>It essentially stopped monitor development for a few days. There were :>programmers who played this game for at least 3 days non-stop, night and :>day, all weekend. The game was completed with the exception of 1 point. :>Now these monitor developers don't f.... around. To be a monitor :>developer, one needs that kind of curiosity that refuses to be quenched :>until all questions of a particular aspect are answered. The game wasn't :>complete until that last point was scored and there was nothing obvious :>about where the point came from. Solution? Set address break; and that's :>how they found the last point. Jim was amused for at least a week when :>he heard 1) how long these people played with no sleep and 2) how they :>finally solved the last point problem. I don't remember who all played :>that weekend but maybe someone who did can expand on the story since my :>info is second-hand. I was in training at the -10 plant when Adventure arrived... I remember the stories going around that the programmers in the tops-10 group and the fortran-10 group convinced Crouther to give them a complete copy of the sources by sending him decompiled sections of the program and insisting that they could decompile all of it in a few weeks. I hand carried a Dec-tape of Adventure back to the Chicago field service office and in a week or two almost every Decsystem-10 and -20 in the area had a copy running on them ( in [6,6] if nowhere else) dave Article 1810 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!usenet.cisco.com!cronkite!billw From: billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Computer Museum (long) Date: 16 Mar 1996 00:59:04 GMT Organization: cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <4ho1js$1l0@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> <4hplm3$cp0@kirin.wwa.com> <4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: puli.cisco.com In-reply-to: phr@netcom.com's message of Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:05:26 GMT Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1810 alt.folklore.computers:55596 The unix version floating around is in C, but it looks like it was transliterated from fortran. You HAVE seen the (Tom Digby?) story "The Programmer and the Elves?" ? BillW Article 1804 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-feed.iguide.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!world.std.com!cstacy From: cstacy@spacy.boston.ma.us (Christopher C Stacy) Subject: Re: The Computer Museum (long) In-Reply-To: phr@netcom.com's message of Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:05:26 GMT Message-ID: Sender: cstacy@world.std.com (Christopher C Stacy) Organization: Christopher C. Stacy References: <4ho1js$1l0@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> <4hplm3$cp0@kirin.wwa.com> <4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:15:13 GMT Lines: 1 Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1804 alt.folklore.computers:55489 ADVENTURE was originally written in FORTRAN on the PDP-10 at Stanford. Article 1790 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Adventure on PDP-10 (was Re: The Computer Museum (long)) In-Reply-To: dkw@cs.brandeis.edu's message of 12 Mar 1996 20:02:20 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u9/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <4ho1js$1l0@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> <4hplm3$cp0@kirin.wwa.com> <4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:55:15 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: alderson@netcom18.netcom.com Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1790 alt.folklore.computers:55338 In article <4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> dkw@cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg) writes: >In article <4hplm3$cp0@kirin.wwa.com>, jeverett@wwa.com (John Everett) writes: >>Let my put in a vote for the original PDP-10 Adventure game, a seminal piece >>of software if there ever was one. As a 350 point cavemaster, I would really >>enjoy a chance to play it again, even with the clunky TTY interface. >>"... and disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke." >I'm not sure the PDP-10 version was the original. In 79 or so, a friend of >mine had the sources to Adventure. They were in FORTRAN, and the comments >made it clear that it had been ported at least a couple of times. We tried >(but failed) to reverse engineer the wizard password, which allowed you to >play at any time during the day. The PDP-10 version was not the first, written by Will Crowther for a CDC box (probably the 6600, but don't hold me to that). It *was* the second version, expanded to the 350-point Classic version by Don Woods of the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. All the versions since are based on the SAIL port. David Long of the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business Computing Facility (which had two of the four DEC20s on campus in the late 70s and early 80s) is responsible for expanding the cave in a number of ways, and pushing the point count up to 500, then 501 points. I liked a lot of his additions, though I felt that changing the Balrog to a Wumpus was Not the Right Thing. Most of DL's work was in the data files, but he did make some changes to the parser as well. Still and all, I'd vote for ZORK as the greatest time-sink on the PDP-10. On the other hand, it got me interested in Lisp (in the form of Muddle) and that changed some of my linguistics research. For a while. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 1792 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!info-server.bbn.com!clements From: clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: PDP-6 vs Piper Cub [take two] Date: 13 Mar 1996 14:29:50 GMT Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4i6m4u$d94@info-server.bbn.com> References: <4hevqa$oj7@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4hqk0o$noe@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lion.bbn.com Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1792 alt.folklore.computers:55347 In article <4hqk0o$noe@zk2nws.zko.dec.com> amartin@denton.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin) writes: >Could someone clear something up for me? If I recall correctly, Al >Blackington once told me years ago that the PDP-6 was a bitch to keep running >because, in marked contrast to all the -10's (and how many other PDP's?), it >was an *asynchronous* design. Well, the answer is "Yes and No". The PDP-6 was asynchronous. But so were the PDP-10's (except for the KL-10). So not much marked contrast there. There were a number of reasons why the PDP-6 was hard to keep running, but that wasn't particularly one of them. If the machine did hang in the middle of an instruction, it was pretty easy to tell how far it had gotten (all those lights were there for a reason) and thus pin down what small section of logic must have failed. I don't recall hangs in the middle of a processor sequence being that common a failure mode. Memory cycles to the external busses, yes. But not very often within the processor. >Alan Howard Martin AMartin@TLE.ENet.DEC.Com Bob Clements, K1BC, clements@bbn.com, (w) +1 617 USE K1BC [Erstwhile PDP-6 field engineer, later KA-10 project engineer] Article 1820 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!usenet.cisco.com!cronkite!billw From: billw@puli.cisco.com (William ) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ADVENT.FOR on PDP-10 Date: 18 Mar 1996 01:09:14 GMT Organization: cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <4hplm3$cp0@kirin.wwa.com> <4i4l8c$i3q@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <4igfoc$ker@shellx.best.com> <4ighr6$1nu@shellx.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: puli.cisco.com In-reply-to: inwap@shellx.best.com's message of 17 Mar 1996 00:17:42 -0800 Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1820 alt.folklore.computers:55745 >It originated on the PDP-10. I believe it was at SU-SCORE.ARPA. SCORE was a dec-20 (thus "score".) SU-AI ("SAIL") preceded it, and ran WAITS (more tops10-like.) BillW