Article 2531 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!not-for-mail From: wtgraham@acs.ucalgary.ca (William Tom Graham) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 31 Dec 1996 22:40:24 -0700 Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5actc8$18h0@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <32BA9A97.41C6@s054.aone.net.au> <19961222154000.KAA19100@ladder01.news.aol.com> <59k038$mm8@kirin.wwa.com> <32C8D7F4.167E@s054.aone.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: wtgraham@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1386 alt.sys.pdp10:2531 In article <32C8D7F4.167E@s054.aone.net.au>, Mark & Suzanne wrote: >John Everett wrote: >> But wait...I thought PAL was the PDP-8 assembler. > >I believe PAL-8 was the assembler used on PDP-8. > >ps. PAL-8 probably was Paper tape Assembler Linker for PDP-8 ? >Anyone know ? The pdp-8 had a few assemblers: PAL III, MACRO-8, PAL-D, PAL8, SABR, and PALTS-8 (the PAL-D version that ran under TSS/8). According to DEC's "programming languages" (volume 2 of the pdp-8 handbook series): "PAL III (an acronym for Program Assembly Language, version III)" "The PAL-D Disk Assembler ..." "SABR (Symbolic Assembler for Binary Relocatable programs)" "PAL8 is an advanced symbolic assembler for the PDP-8 series computers, designed to run under the PS/8 Operating System. It is an 8K, two pass assembler (with an optional third pass listing) which is generally compatible with PAL-III, MACRO-8, and PAL-D." Would anyone be interested in seeing the FOCAL-8 chapter? I took the liberty of typing it in, and have it in softcopy. Also, does anyone have a spare copy of volume 1 of the pdp-8 handbook series, "Introduction to Programming"? It covered the pdp-8 machine architecture, instruction set and assembly language, as I recall. I borrowed the computer lab's copy one weekend in 1978, and haven't seen one since. - William T. Graham - Article 2535 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 2 Jan 1997 22:47:01 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1391 alt.sys.pdp10:2535 From article <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net>, by mike@kronos.egr-ri.ids.net (Mike Umbricht): > > What are the similarities and differences bewteen PAL-8 and PAL-10? DEC did most of their early software development for the -8 on cross-assemblers, by the end of the 1960's, this was being done using a the PDP-10; PAL-8 was essentially compatable with the PDP-10 assembler being used -- once you expunged the PDP-10 symbols from the symbol table and defined the appropriate PDP-8 stuff. Of course, customers were doing plenty in versions of PAL or MACRO-8 (I have paper-tapes of both), and there was plenty of interchange between the two worlds. Once OS-8 was up and running, it became an effective development environment for PDP-8 code, particularly once TECO was ported to the -8. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2538 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!newshub2.home.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news.webspan.net!usenet From: "k. danzig" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:47:46 -0800 Organization: d.f.m. corp. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <32CD8C92.41EB@webspan.net> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: raghead@webspan.net NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3-04.lkd.nj.webspan.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1396 alt.sys.pdp10:2538 Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: > > From article <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net>, > by mike@kronos.egr-ri.ids.net (Mike Umbricht): > > > > What are the similarities and differences bewteen PAL-8 and PAL-10? > > DEC did most of their early software development for the -8 on > cross-assemblers, by the end of the 1960's, this was being done > using a the PDP-10; PAL-8 was essentially compatable with the > PDP-10 assembler being used -- once you expunged the PDP-10 symbols > from the symbol table and defined the appropriate PDP-8 stuff. > I'm not sure what you mean, PAL-10 is how we slaves often wrote code until we had OS/8 running and PAL-8. The assembler we used under TOPS-10 for the 10's was MACRO-10 if I remember correctly. We outputed paper tape that went right on the '33's. Many of the best PAL tricks I learned where from reading DEC's diags (also done in PAL-10). > Of course, customers were doing plenty in versions of PAL or MACRO-8 > (I have paper-tapes of both), and there was plenty of interchange > between the two worlds. Once OS-8 was up and running, it became > an effective development environment for PDP-8 code, particularly > once TECO was ported to the -8. I always did better before TECO as the CCL remembered my files between PAL and the editor and when we patched TECO in it wasn't the same. I just realized that I have sitting a bootable RK05 with OS/8 on it under a pile of books. Anybody want to pay shipping? > > Doug Jones > jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2539 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!usenet.logical.net!news.nap.net!news.wwa.com!news From: jeverett@wwa.com.defeat.uce.bots (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 4 Jan 1997 17:37:40 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Chicagoland Internet Services (http://www.wwa.com) Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool10-018.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1397 alt.sys.pdp10:2539 In article <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu says... > >From article <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net>, >by mike@kronos.egr-ri.ids.net (Mike Umbricht): >> >> What are the similarities and differences bewteen PAL-8 and PAL-10? > >DEC did most of their early software development for the -8 on >cross-assemblers, by the end of the 1960's, this was being done >using a the PDP-10; PAL-8 was essentially compatable with the >PDP-10 assembler being used -- once you expunged the PDP-10 symbols >from the symbol table and defined the appropriate PDP-8 stuff. This is almost correct. When Roger Pyle and I were writing the PDP-8 Disk Monitor System (circa 1967), the only assembler available was the paper tape based PAL-III. We prepared our source on the PDP-6 using TECO and punched a source paper tape which we assembled on the -8. As part of the Disk Monitor System project I took the guts of PAL-III and turned it into PAL-D, the first disk based PDP-8 assembler. I then left that project to (along with Don Witcraft) write TSS/8. We quickly realized we needed an assembler with more symbol table space (and perhaps externals) and turned to Bob Bowering for help. Bob was the author of MACRO for the -6 and -10. Based upon specs provided by Don and me, Bob wrote PAL-X in a very short time. Note that Bob had just created MACRO-10, which was at that time was saved as MACROX.SAV (I think perhaps to distinguish it from PDP-6 MACRO), and commonly pronounced "MACK-rocks". >Of course, customers were doing plenty in versions of PAL or MACRO-8 >(I have paper-tapes of both), and there was plenty of interchange >between the two worlds. Once OS-8 was up and running, it became >an effective development environment for PDP-8 code, particularly >once TECO was ported to the -8. By the time OS-8 appeared, I was in the PDP-10 Monitor Group and of course denied any knowledge whatsoever of the PDP-8. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2542 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!newshub2.home.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 4 Jan 1997 12:47:46 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <19970104124600.HAA16431@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <32CD8C92.41EB@webspan.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com "k. danzig" wrote: References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool13-024.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1402 alt.sys.pdp10:2548 In article , francini@ultranet.com says... > >In article <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com>, jeverett@wwa.com.defeat.uce.bots >(John Everett) wrote: > >> In article <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu >> says... > >> [...] >> I then left that project to (along with Don >> Witcraft) write TSS/8. > >I don't suppose you might know of anyplace where I could lay my hands on a >copy of TSS/8, do you? I've got a rather nice PDP-8/e emulator and would >love to be able to run a copy of the first ever computer O/S I ever saw... > You might try searching through dejanews, I seem to recall some postings (primarily in a.s.pdp8) by people who had copies of TSS/8. >> By the time OS-8 appeared, I was in the PDP-10 Monitor Group and of >> course denied any knowledge whatsoever of the PDP-8. > >I'm curious: was the "wall" between PDP-8 and PDP-10 people anywhere near >as high as the wall that later developed between PDP-11/VAXland and the >TOPS people? Having experienced the latter in my 7+ years in 10-land, it >seemed to be pretty bad... If there was a wall it was between the PDP-10 monitor group and everyone else. DEC's corporate culture at that time was pretty much a meritocracy, with the -10 folks (at least in the Programming Department) being top dogs. We were an arrogant lot and tended to look down our noses at people playing with "those little systems". Since the PDP-5/8, PDP-4/7/9/15, and later the PDP-11 never posed a threat to the -10's pre-eminent position in the DEC hierarchy, the level of animosity never reached that which later existed between the 36 and 32 bit worlds. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2549 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 7 Jan 1997 16:41:42 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5atuc6$iqe@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1403 alt.sys.pdp10:2549 From article <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com>, by jeverett@wwa.com.defeat.uce.bots (John Everett): > > If there was a wall it was between the PDP-10 monitor group and everyone > else. DEC's corporate culture at that time was pretty much a meritocracy, > with the -10 folks (at least in the Programming Department) being top dogs. I've been doing a survey of DEC's advertising, and it's interesting to note that most of the ads DEC ran between 1965 and 1970 were for the PDP-8; DEC started vigorously advertising the -8 in May 1965, and they continued that campaign through the 1960's. Starting around 1970, though, DEC's advertising shifted focus, with much of their high-visibility advertising in general circulation publications (for example, in Scientific American) shifting to the PDP-10. With this shift came a change in advertising style: PDP-8 ads always had photos of the machine, frequently with teddy bears, roses or other "cuddly" props, and emphasized the personal connection between user and computer. PDP-10 ads, on the other hand, were more likely to be print only, or print augmented with cartoon drawings -- after all, most PDP-10 users never saw the machine -- they saw a teletype and modem, and their use with the machine were through the medium of textual input and output. DEC made a big point about the PDP-10 being the dominant ARPAnet host, and they pushed it as a deparemental supercomputer, able to handle the entire computing load of an entire large university department. The term supercomputer had no generally accepted definition in the early 1970's, and DEC used it quite heavily in their print advertising for the -10. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2550 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.4.164.94!gail.ripco.com!news.wwa.com!news From: jeverett@wwa.com.defeat.uce.bots (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 8 Jan 1997 16:52:32 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Chicagoland Internet Services (http://www.wwa.com) Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5b0jcg$8fo@kirin.wwa.com> References: <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> <5atuc6$iqe@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool10-012.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1407 alt.sys.pdp10:2550 In article <5atuc6$iqe@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu says... > >Starting around 1970, though, DEC's advertising shifted focus, with much of >their high-visibility advertising in general circulation publications >(for example, in Scientific American) shifting to the PDP-10. With this >shift came a change in advertising style: > >PDP-8 ads always had photos of the machine, frequently with teddy bears, >roses or other "cuddly" props, and emphasized the personal connection >between user and computer. PDP-10 ads, on the other hand, were more likely >to be print only, or print augmented with cartoon drawings During the mid-60s DEC made it a point to portray themselves as "all cuddly and user friendly" computer company, I believe to seperate themselves from IBM and the seven dwarves. The corporate teddy bear was always prominently displayed in the DEC booth at trade shows. I wish I still had a copy of a memo from Ken Olsen complaining about the appearance of the bear at a show in 1966 or '67. He made it very clear that in the future someone needed to take responsibility for making sure the bear's fur was brushed and his bow crisply pressed. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2552 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!news.peritus.com!telgar!jcook From: jcook@telgar.westboro-ma.peritus.com (C. James Cook) Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Message-ID: <1997Jan8.134956@telgar> Sender: jcook@telgar (C. James Cook) Organization: Peritus Software Services, Inc. X-Newsreader: xrn 7.04-beta-2 References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:49:56 GMT Lines: 34 Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1408 alt.sys.pdp10:2552 In article <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com>, jeverett@wwa.com.defeat.uce.bots (John Everett) writes: |> In article , |> francini@ultranet.com says... |> >... |> >I'm curious: was the "wall" between PDP-8 and PDP-10 people anywhere near |> >as high as the wall that later developed between PDP-11/VAXland and the |> >TOPS people? Having experienced the latter in my 7+ years in 10-land, it |> >seemed to be pretty bad... |> |> If there was a wall it was between the PDP-10 monitor group and everyone |> else. DEC's corporate culture at that time was pretty much a meritocracy, |> with the -10 folks (at least in the Programming Department) being top dogs. |> We were an arrogant lot and tended to look down our noses at people playing |> with "those little systems". Since the PDP-5/8, PDP-4/7/9/15, and later the |> PDP-11 never posed a threat to the -10's pre-eminent position in the DEC |> hierarchy, the level of animosity never reached that which later existed |> between the 36 and 32 bit worlds. I remember a third-hand story... ACM speakers sometimes were hosted at DEC buildings. At one talk in Tewksbury (home of Vax folks), someone from Maynard (home of the PDP-10/20 folks) wore a shirt reading "Nuke Tewksbury". This was a takeoff on all the "Nuke the baby gay whales" or "Nuke Jane Fonda" jokes of the time. This was all taken in fun by those attending. Well, all but one. Vax's architect & VP, Gordon Bell, asked for details, which were cheerfully provided by the shirt-wearer. Gordon then hauled a bunch of managers into his office. They came out white-faced, under the threat that heads would roll if it happened again. DEC banned the shirt. The shirt salesman, another DEC employee, had to re-order more shirts to sell. They now sold like hotcakes. Urban myth? I don't know. But it makes for a good story. Article 2553 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!usenet From: "Carl J. Appellof" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Wall dividing 32 and 36 bit work Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 09:03:54 -0800 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <32D3D37A.68DC@zso.dec.com> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chmist.zso.dec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) > In article , > francini@ultranet.com says... > >I'm curious: was the "wall" between PDP-8 and PDP-10 people anywhere near > >as high as the wall that later developed between PDP-11/VAXland and the > >TOPS people? Having experienced the latter in my 7+ years in 10-land, it > >seemed to be pretty bad... I worked in -10 land at the same time as you, John. I would not have said there was a "wall" between the -10 and VAX software groups. It was more like a state line. I don't think the VAX folks paid much attention to us 36-bitters (pun intented) near the end. In hardware-land in Marlboro, the wall was more of a permeable membrane, with lots of the Jupiter guys being reassigned to the Venus (VAX 8600), then later the AquaVAX. Neither of those machines really fit into the mainstream of VAX hardware, though. -- Carl Appellof not speaking for Digital Equipment Corporation Article 2558 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!usenet From: "Carl J. Appellof" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wall dividing 32 and 36 bit work Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:01:45 -0800 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 19 Message-ID: <32D6E679.127B@zso.dec.com> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> <32D3D37A.68DC@zso.dec.com> <32d95281.181517237@news.sn.no> <5b5mvn$l7c@transfer.stratus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chmist.zso.dec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Tom Moser wrote: > > "AquaVAX"? > > > > Aquarius? Of course, "Aquarius". "Expensive Boat Anchor" might be more like it. A couple of them saw life as VAX 9000s in customer installations. I think the project was originally named "Aquarius" because the plans were for it to be liquid-cooled. A follow-on air-cooled project called "Aridus" (as in "arid", or "dry") was in the works too. Late in the project, they decided to drain the water out of the AquaVAX and sell it dry. It sunk like a stone in the marketplace. -- Carl Appellof not speaking for Digital Equipment Corporation Article 2559 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!usenet From: "Carl J. Appellof" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wall dividing 32 and 36 bit work Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:06:41 -0800 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32D6E7A1.39@zso.dec.com> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> <32D3D37A.68DC@zso.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chmist.zso.dec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Eric Werme wrote: > > Indeed. I worked on ANF-10, the TOPS-10, non-DECnet compliant network (it > was up and running before DECnet specs ever started). I remember going to > a networking meeting at the Mill on day and in the round of introductions > said I worked on "TOPS-10 networks". Several people in the room were > startled to hear that TOPS had networking! Funny thing happened a few years later (1985 or so). Me and Bob Houk (ANF maintainer at the time) and a few other folks trooped up to Littleton to hear a talk on a brand new concept called "link state routing", which was going to drastically improve the DECnet Phase IV routing algorithms in preparation for the BIG networks in Phase V. As soon as Bob heard a description of the algorithms from the network architect, he said "That's what ANF-10 has been using all along!" -- Carl Appellof not speaking for Digital Equipment Corporation Article 2560 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!usc!usc!not-for-mail From: tli@skat.usc.edu (tli) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wall dividing 32 and 36 bit work Date: 11 Jan 1997 00:39:43 -0800 Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 20 Sender: tli@skat.usc.edu Message-ID: <5b7jkf$1r7@skat.usc.edu> References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <32D3D37A.68DC@zso.dec.com> <32D6E7A1.39@zso.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu Funny thing happened a few years later (1985 or so). Me and Bob Houk (ANF maintainer at the time) and a few other folks trooped up to Littleton to hear a talk on a brand new concept called "link state routing", which was going to drastically improve the DECnet Phase IV routing algorithms in preparation for the BIG networks in Phase V. As soon as Bob heard a description of the algorithms from the network architect, he said "That's what ANF-10 has been using all along!" This isn't so surprising. Both are an outgrowth of work at BBN for Arpanet routing. You'll be pleased to know that that same protocol designed for Phase V is part of what's holding the Internet backbone together today. You may also be saddened to hear that it's the same protocol... with no progress since then. ;-( Tony -- Good Happens -- just a whole lot less frequently Article 2563 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!alingo.zk3.dec.com!werme From: werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wall dividing 32 and 36 bit work Date: 13 Jan 97 22:59:53 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <32D3D37A.68DC@zso.dec.com> <32D6E7A1.39@zso.dec.com> <5b7jkf$1r7@skat.usc.edu> Reply-To: werme@zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: alingo.zk3.dec.com tli@skat.usc.edu (tli) writes: > As > soon as Bob heard a description of the algorithms from the network > architect, he said "That's what ANF-10 has been using all along!" >This isn't so surprising. Both are an outgrowth of work at BBN for Arpanet >routing. You'll be pleased to know that that same protocol designed for >Phase V is part of what's holding the Internet backbone together today. >You may also be saddened to hear that it's the same protocol... with no >progress since then. ;-( Don't be too sure of that. While I didn't design the ANF-10 protocols, I don't recall that the people who did had any ties to BB&N at all. I left C-MU in 1974 where I did a lot of ARPAnet support (I think I installed the first FTP client on the ARPAnet in September 1972 before visiting my family in Germany. There were no servers to try it against and when I got back found it didn't work. Sigh. I was not real strong on the IMP-IMP protocol, and I've forgotten the details of the ANF-10 routing code so I may be mistaken. NCL, the ANF-10 transport protocol, was designed by scaling DDCMP (DECs link level protocol) up a level and doing some other straightforward stuff. I did write specs for adding multi-path support (I don't remember if I implemented it) and hierarchical routing (which I definitely did not). -- <> Eric (Ric) Werme <> This space under reconstruction <> <> <> <> Article 2565 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!usenet From: Stu Grossman Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: pdp-8 PAL8 assembler Date: 08 Jan 1997 22:55:31 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5agtj9$1ee@paperboy.ids.net> <5ahdt5$hko@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5am4h4$dlk@kirin.wwa.com> <5atsoj$1qf@kirin.wwa.com> <1997Jan8.134956@telgar> NNTP-Posting-Host: critters.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1421 alt.sys.pdp10:2565 > I remember a third-hand story... > > ACM speakers sometimes were hosted at DEC buildings. At one talk in Tewksbury > (home of Vax folks), someone from Maynard (home of the PDP-10/20 folks) > wore a shirt reading "Nuke Tewksbury". This was a takeoff on all the > "Nuke the baby gay whales" or "Nuke Jane Fonda" jokes of the time. > This was all taken in fun by those attending. > > Well, all but one. Vax's architect & VP, Gordon Bell, asked for details, > which were cheerfully provided by the shirt-wearer. Gordon then hauled > a bunch of managers into his office. They came out white-faced, under the > threat that heads would roll if it happened again. DEC banned the shirt. > The shirt salesman, another DEC employee, had to re-order more shirts to > sell. They now sold like hotcakes. > > Urban myth? I don't know. But it makes for a good story. This is based on a true story, but the details are a quite different. First, this occurred between sometime '81 and '84 (83ish time frame seems about right). At that time the 10/20 folk were in Marlboro, not Maynard. There was, let us say a certain amount of enmity between the Marlboro folk who did 10's and 20's and the Vax group which was in Spitbrook. Tewksbury was close enough to Spitbrook, and sounded better when combined with nuke, hence the slogan `Nuke Tewksbury'. It's also possible that this sentiment might have had something to do with the fact that Tewksbury was where the DECnet architects were. People in LCG were never totally happy with DECnet... So, if memory serves me, one fine day, there was a party at the Computer Museum comemmerating some event. An aquisition of some sort, or getting some old computer running again. I don't recall. During those days, the museum was in MR2 (I think that's called MRO2 today) which was the building right next door to MR1, where LCG still reigned. Smelling free food and liquor, an expedition from LCG was mounted to attend the party. I believe that a person who we will call Mark H. was among the raiding party. Apparantly, Gordon noticed his shirt, and asked for a closer look. Gordon saw the offending words, and was apparantly not pleased. I *think* what happened was that either the shirts were banned at company events, or some sort of a dress code for public events was instituted. What is for certain is that the story grows in the telling... :-) Stu Article 2564 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet From: brider@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Mitchell") Subject: Re: IFN FTDATE97,<...> Message-ID: Organization: Compulink Information eXchange References: <5baumi$l8c@kirin.wwa.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:54:57 GMT X-News-Software: Ameol Lines: 17 Let's see, now.... The date was a count of the number of days since 1st January 1964 except that each month was assumed to have 31 days, so one year has 12*31 days = 372... Eleven years have 4092 days and 12 bits represent 4096 days, hence 5th January 1975 was a bad hair day. Moving on, 33 years = 12276 days and 3*4096 =12288 which means that 13th January 1997 is, indeed the third great overflowing! Gosh, doesn't time fly. I remember in the UK that the only system we couldn't fix in time was the one at Farnborough which was used to bend and try to break the prototype Concorde super-sonic passenger plane in a huge heat exchanger. They bought the system with 4S72, or was it 4N50 and, even in those days, were not entitled to upgrade to 5-series. And they wrote all their results to Dectape which was a particular DATE75 problem area. A third party was involved to sort them out but I never found out what the outcome was... Chris Mitchell Article 2574 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!uucp5.uu.net!world!dpbsmith From: dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith) Subject: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:19:07 GMT Lines: 12 Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80250 comp.text:2911 alt.sys.pdp8:1467 alt.sys.pdp10:2574 alt.sys.pdp11:2106 I have posted a reproduction of the documentation for a VERY early word-processor-like program, which ran on a PDP-1 with 4K words (9K bytes) of RAM in 1963. I think the program was written by Pete Samson, although no names appear in the documentation. For your nostalgic pleasure: http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/tj2.html Comments welcome. -- Daniel P. B. Smith dpbsmith@world.std.com Article 2577 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!news.ford.com!swestin From: swestin@dsg145.nad.ford.com (Stephen Westin ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 31 Jan 1997 13:46:21 GMT Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 34 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dsg145.nad.ford.com In-reply-to: rjm@europa.ox.ac.uk's message of 31 Jan 1997 10:25:25 -0000 Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80267 comp.text:2914 alt.sys.pdp8:1470 alt.sys.pdp10:2577 alt.sys.pdp11:2110 In article rjm@europa.ox.ac.uk (Bob Manners) writes: > > I have posted a reproduction of the documentation for a VERY early > > word-processor-like program, which ran on a PDP-1 with 4K words (9K bytes) > > of RAM in 1963. I think the program was written by Pete Samson, although > > no names appear in the documentation. > > 4Kwords == 9Kb. I take it that the PDP-1 had an 18 bit word length then? You betcha. My impression of the PDP genealogy: PDP 1,4,7,9,15: 18-bit machines PDP 5,8,12: 12-bit PDP 6,10,20: 36-bit PDP 11: 16-bit PDP 2: Never built PDP 3: Designed, never built by DEC, but rumor has it a customer bought DEC modules and assembled one. Don't know word length. PDP 13: Never existed PDP 14: Industrial automation controllers. Don't know word length PDP 16: Not a machine, but a system of register-transfer modules (memory, ALU, etc) from which a customer could build various computer-like devices. I used them in a class at Michigan; I believe DEC donated lots of 'em after they died in the market. They came out just in time to be obsoleted by the increasing level of integrated circuits of the time. -Stephen H. Westin swestin@ford.com The information and opinions in this message are mine, not Ford's. -- -Stephen H. Westin swestin@ford.com The information and opinions in this message are mine, not Ford's. Article 2582 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!news.seinf.abb.se!news.mdh.se!columba.udac.uu.se!Zeke.Update.UU.SE!Zeke.Update.UU.SE!not-for-mail From: bqt@Zeke.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 31 Jan 1997 18:50:49 +0100 Organization: Update Computer Club Lines: 49 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: zeke.update.uu.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80284 comp.text:2920 alt.sys.pdp8:1476 alt.sys.pdp10:2582 alt.sys.pdp11:2116 In swestin@dsg145.nad.ford.com (Stephen Westin ) writes: >In article rjm@europa.ox.ac.uk (Bob Manners) writes: > >> > I have posted a reproduction of the documentation for a VERY early >> > word-processor-like program, which ran on a PDP-1 with 4K words (9K bytes) >> > of RAM in 1963. I think the program was written by Pete Samson, although >> > no names appear in the documentation. >> >> 4Kwords == 9Kb. I take it that the PDP-1 had an 18 bit word length then? > >You betcha. My impression of the PDP genealogy: > >PDP 1,4,7,9,15: 18-bit machines >PDP 5,8,12: 12-bit >PDP 6,10,20: 36-bit *Sigh* There never was any such beast as the PDP-20. >PDP 11: 16-bit >PDP 2: Never built True, but it was reserved for a 24-bitter according to MRC. >PDP 3: Designed, never built by DEC, but rumor has it a customer > bought DEC modules and assembled one. Don't know word length. 36-bits. One was built in 1960, according to MRC. >PDP 13: Never existed >PDP 14: Industrial automation controllers. Don't know word length 12-bit, but with a 1-bit accumulator. >PDP 16: Not a machine, but a system of register-transfer modules > (memory, ALU, etc) from which a customer could build various > computer-like devices. I used them in a class at Michigan; I > believe DEC donated lots of 'em after they died in the market. > They came out just in time to be obsoleted by the increasing > level of integrated circuits of the time. And it was a 16-bitter according to MRC. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Article 2578 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 31 Jan 1997 15:09:02 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 18 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5ct1ue$k2m@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80272 comp.text:2915 alt.sys.pdp8:1471 alt.sys.pdp10:2578 alt.sys.pdp11:2111 From article , by rjm@europa.ox.ac.uk (Bob Manners): > 4Kwords == 9Kb. I take it that the PDP-1 had an 18 bit word length then? Exactly. The PDP-1, PDP-4, PDP-7, PDP-9 and PDP-15 were related in that regard. The later 18 bit machines were not compatable with the PDP-1, though. DEC Press has come out with a wonderful book, Digital At Work, that includes photos and overviews of the specs for most of the PDP machines, as well as predecessors like the MIT TX0. You can find a short table of these attributes in the first part of the alt.sys.pdp8 FAQ. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2579 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!ard12 From: ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 31 Jan 1997 15:32:12 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 23 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5ct39s$j7b@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <5ct1ue$k2m@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: club.eng.cam.ac.uk Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80274 comp.text:2916 alt.sys.pdp8:1472 alt.sys.pdp10:2579 alt.sys.pdp11:2112 jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >DEC Press has come out with a wonderful book, Digital At Work, that includes >photos and overviews of the specs for most of the PDP machines, as well as >predecessors like the MIT TX0. Yes, that book is rather fun but there are a number of errors in it that may be confusing at first. I seem to recall that one of the pictures of a 'PDP11 System' is actually a VAX 11/730 (or maybe the other way round), etc. My favourite error is the fact that a very nice picture of a PDP8 of some flavour has been printed left-right reversed, or at least, I think it has (unless there was an ASR-33 like teletype with the punch on the right, and a single DECtape drive that filled the _right_ hand half of the rack panel). None-the-less, there's a lot of good stuff in it, and it's certainly worth buying if you are interested in the old DEC machines. > Doug Jones -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Article 2581 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Digital at Work (Was: TJ-2, ... early word-processor ...) Date: 31 Jan 1997 16:48:02 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 24 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5ct7o2$10u4@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5ct39s$j7b@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80280 comp.text:2919 alt.sys.pdp8:1475 alt.sys.pdp10:2581 alt.sys.pdp11:2115 From article <5ct39s$j7b@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, by ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell): >>DEC Press has come out with a wonderful book, Digital At Work, ... > > Yes, that book is rather fun but there are a number of errors in it that > may be confusing at first. I seem to recall that one of the pictures of a > 'PDP11 System' is actually a VAX 11/730 (or maybe the other way round), > etc. My favourite error is the fact that a very nice picture of a PDP8 of > some flavour has been printed left-right reversed, ... I hadn't noticed that one! Page 50, lower left. Not only is the tape reader-punch on the ASR 33 on the wrong side, and the TU 55 drives with their tape reels on the wrong side, but you can clearly read the unit number on the upper drive -- a backwards 4. I get the feeling that layout professionals really like people to face to the right in profile views, and that that photo is as likely to have been left-right reversed when it was originally run as an advertising photo back in the 1970's as it is to have been reversed in for the book. I've seen other left-right reversals in DEC ads from that era. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2586 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!kirin.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 1 Feb 1997 17:11:07 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Midwestern Internet Services (www.wwa.com) Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5cvtfc$22j$3@kirin.wwa.com> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <01bc0fe8$97d6d740$0b4284a9@wardch> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool12-028.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp1.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80328 comp.text:2924 alt.sys.pdp8:1485 alt.sys.pdp10:2586 alt.sys.pdp11:2121 In article <01bc0fe8$97d6d740$0b4284a9@wardch>, ccw@mail.idt.com says... > >Along with the knowledge that the Data General Nova was decended from the >PDP-8 >(Edson DeCastro worked on both) Ain't revisionist history wonderful! Actually the Nova was descended (as opposed to decended) from the PDP-X (or X-project) at DEC. This was DEC's first attempt at a 16 bit machine, rejected by the operations committee. Eventually a new design emerged as the PDP-11. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2596 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 3 Feb 1997 14:16:43 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 8 Message-ID: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com You've been talking about a program called nroff. Since I was the first group leader of the RUNOFF group at DEC, would you mind enlightening me? We had a NRUNOF (sp?) for a while when the commands were being modified so that semi-colons could be a terminator character of a formatting command and the commands were shortened to 1-2 characters. /BAH Article 2601 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.109.2.48!bonkers!not-for-mail From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 3 Feb 1997 16:14:05 -0600 Organization: none Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5d5nvd$sqt@bonkers.taronga.com> References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.taronga.com X-No-Archive: yes Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2601 In article <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com>, JMFBAH wrote: >You've been talking about a program called nroff. Since I was the first >group leader of the RUNOFF group at DEC, would you mind enlightening me? Early in the history of UNIX, back before Version 7 and the great UNIX explosion, there was a fairly simple text processor used for formatting the manual pages. It was inspired by "RUNOFF" and called "ROFF" (when you work on ASR33 teletypes, you like making command names short!). Joe Ossanna did an enhanced version of this program, with pretty sophisticated (for the time) macro facilities. It came in two versions: "nroff" (new roff) generated lineprinter output, and troff (typesetter roff) generated output for the Graphic Systems C/A/T phototypesetter. Later versions of troff and ditroff (device independent typesetter runoff ) supported more devices. Later, the GNU folks did a from-scratch version of nroff/troff called groff and it's what most rational systems use for their UNIX manuals these days. It generates lineprinter and postscript output, mostly. The *roff family aren't near so sophisticated as TeX, but they're a heck of a lot easier to use... especially when it comes to debugging errors in your markup... TeX's error cascades are, well, pretty amazing. -- The Reverend Peter da Silva, ULC, COQO, BOFH. Reality is the stuff that's still there when you turn the video off. Article 2612 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 5 Feb 1997 13:14:12 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 60 Message-ID: <19970205131400.IAA07892@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <1997Feb4.152438.27876@indyvax.iupui.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2612 mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) wrote: >> In article <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com>, <> JMFBAH wrote: >>You've been talking about a program called nroff. Since I was the first >>group leader of the RUNOFF group at DEC, would you mind enlightening me? >Hey, kudos to you and all the RUNOFF group. Thank you. Maybe it's time to document more of the ways we used to work when Digital was DEC. As the programming staffs grew, the work load at Tape Prep grew. The jobs would come in, be assessed for length of time the job would take, and get put into a priority list. It got so complex that nobody (writers, reproducers, nor programmers) were getting their jobs done on time. So Tape Prep was reorganized into three groups: 1) the RUNOFF group which would handle all work that needed to be done in RUNOFF, 2) the quick-turnaround group which took in jobs that could be done in less than an hour or so, and 3) all the rest of the jobs. At that time, all documentation that was published and shipped by DEC was done on typewriters by a group of (about) 20 women. None of that stuff was on-line. A few exceptions were the -10 functional specs and (I think) the processor manual. After getting broken in, I decided that everything should start to be done on-line. I began a campaign to convince writers to type their stuff on-line; there were some who preferred to write on paper but not many. It took some convincing that a complete retyping of a chapter wasn't needed just because they added one text line; this was the case when the documents were done by typewriters. The RUNOFF group gradually transformed itself into a real typesetting group (long after I left). RUNOFF was not very good at manipulating text for publishing but it was very useful. For instance, double columns that were automatically left/right justified and space-filled were impossible to do, but we managed [smiling emoticon here]. I believe that the only job I ever turned down was submitted by a one of the five V.P.s (for the life of me I can't remember the name). My boss was insistent that I do the job for fear that the VP would get unhappy. I pointed out that he would be even more unhappy when we produced a sloppy job that took 20 hours/month to do. What he really wanted was a VISICALC piece of software. This was in 1972; there was no such thing. I turned down the job, explaining to him that it was more efficient for someone with good secretarial skills to do the job since the software didn't exist. I was always sorry that all those women (of the typing pool) were eventually put out of a job but I was not sorry to finally get that documentation into bits. Interestingly enough, the person who made a transition to typing on-line from the pool was a woman who was considered to be backward; but she could type 120 w.p.m. When she was being trained to work on a computer, the decision was being made that she wouldn't be able to learn RUNOFF. The plan was that she would WYSIWYG the documentation into a file, and someone, like me, would insert RUNOFF commands to do the formatting. That was unacceptable and I insisted that she be taught RUNOFF commands, monitor-level commands and everything in between. She learned and she just loved it. /BAH Article 2613 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!kirin.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 5 Feb 1997 15:47:27 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Midwestern Internet Services (www.wwa.com) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5daa2f$lfc$1@kirin.wwa.com> References: <5d5nvd$sqt@bonkers.taronga.com> <1997Feb4.152438.27876@indyvax.iupui.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool20-019.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2613 In article <1997Feb4.152438.27876@indyvax.iupui.edu>, mwood@indyvax.iupui.edu says... > >> In article <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com>, >> JMFBAH wrote: >>>You've been talking about a program called nroff. Since I was the first >>>group leader of the RUNOFF group at DEC, would you mind enlightening me? > >Hey, kudos to you and all the RUNOFF group. I think you perhaps misunderstand, Barb (JMFBAH) was not responsible for the creation of RUNOFF, but for its DEC-wide adoption as a documentation standard. The story of RUNOFF's creation is another piece of DEC folklore. Some person (who's name is lost to history) had created a "text-processing" program that ran on the PDP-10. He wanted to sell it to DEC. He came to Maynard one Friday and demonstrated it to a group of us -10 types. He was careful to remove the program from System 2 before he departed, but left behind some documentation. On Monday, Bob Clements showed us how he had spent his weekend. He had written a program that basically conformed to the guy's documentation. Bob called his weekend project RUNOFF. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2617 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!thvv.vip.best.com!user From: thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Runoffs (was: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 15:45:01 -0800 Organization: Multicians Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5d5nvd$sqt@bonkers.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: thvv.vip.best.com X-url: http://www.best.com/~thvv/multics.html Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2617 Peter da Silva wrote: >Early in the history of UNIX, back before Version 7 and the great UNIX >explosion, there was a fairly simple text processor used for formatting >the manual pages. It was inspired by "RUNOFF" and called "ROFF" (when you >work on ASR33 teletypes, you like making command names short!). Jerry Saltzer wrote the RUNOFF command for CTSS on the MIT 7094. I remember using it for documentation in 1965, so it was a public command by then. Saltzer acknowledged inspiration from TJ-2 and expensive typewriter. I believe the R formatter of ITS came after RUNOFF. Doug McIlroy, Rudd Canaday, and Dennis Ritchie wrote a version of runoff for 645 Multics in BCPL, so that the Multics group could use its own system for documentation. Both of these runoffs took input lines beginning with dot as command lines. Bob Morris and Dennis Ritchie moved the BCPL runoff to BTL's GE-635 and called it roff. McIlroy then wrote a roff from scratch in BCPL, expanding and improving on runoff; Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie then wrote a machine-language version of roff for their new system, UNIX, about 1970, to justify the purchase of the PDP-11. DEC's RUNOFF command might have been inspired by CTSS's, since the DEC engineers who went to MIT in the 60s would have seen it. Or it might have been an independent invention, with a coincidence in names. Article 2620 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!usenet From: tk@ai.mit.edu (Tom Knight) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Runoffs (was: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1) Date: 07 Feb 1997 17:43:12 GMT Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5d5nvd$sqt@bonkers.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watt.ai.mit.edu In-reply-to: thvv@best.com's message of Thu, 06 Feb 1997 15:45:01 -0800 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2620 In article thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) writes: > I believe the R formatter of ITS came after RUNOFF. R was well after runoff -- done in the Dynamic Modelling Group (home of Zork) and well after the more popular TJ-6 formatter used for ITS documentation. Article 2623 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Runoffs (was: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1) Date: 8 Feb 1997 16:49:05 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Midwestern Internet Services (www.wwa.com) Lines: 50 Message-ID: <5diaq1$6cn$2@kirin.wwa.com> References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5d5nvd$sqt@bonkers.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool12-020.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2623 In article , thvv@best.com says... > >DEC's RUNOFF command might have been inspired by CTSS's, since >the DEC engineers who went to MIT in the 60s would have seen it. >Or it might have been an independent invention, with a coincidence >in names. The following is from Bob Clements, the author of DEC's PDP-10 RUNOFF. The reason I'm posting (as opposed to Bob) is self-explanatory: "Hi, John, I haven't been posting lately due to getting ticked off at the resulting junk email. Haven't had time to fix the environment to hide my address properly. Feel free to post this if you omit the cleartext form of my email address. In article <5daa2f$lfc$1@kirin.wwa.com> you write: >The story of RUNOFF's creation is another piece of DEC folklore. Some person >(who's name is lost to history) had created a "text-processing" program that >ran on the PDP-10. [...] >On Monday, Bob Clements showed us how he had spent his weekend. He had >written a program that basically conformed to the guy's documentation. Bob >called his weekend project RUNOFF. Well, this isn't how I remember it, and it gives me too much credit. I don't remember anyone coming to offer such a program to DEC, but it might have happened. The actual origin of RUNOFF on the -10 was indeed me, but I didn't write it from scratch or from specs. I did a fairly direct translation of the source code for SDS-940 RUNOFF, which was written at UCB. I had to redo the I/O and system call stuff, of course, but the text formating logic was all straight out of the Berkley code. If you can find a copy of the source code of RUNOFF, you'll see big sections with registers named A, B and X (I think that's right), which were the main registers of the 940. It didn't have general registers like the DEC machines. That code was just plain copied. Today, I suppose you'd get in trouble for that. In those days, it wasn't that big a deal. Mea culpa." -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2608 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!lead.zk3.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!alingo.zk3.dec.com!werme From: werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 4 Feb 97 14:35:40 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> Reply-To: werme@zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: alingo.zk3.dec.com Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2608 jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) writes: >You've been talking about a program called nroff. Since I was the first >group leader of the RUNOFF group at DEC, would you mind enlightening me? nroff is an old time Unix program that replaced roff, and older and, as far as I know, lost program. (And probably no loss.) troff is a nroff variant designed to talk to the Graphic Systems phototypesetter, but various paths exist to talk to PostScript an other current printing systems. Nroff files generally include macro libraries, typcically for man pages or one of two for documents. Random nroff sample: .IP "\fBgateway\fP \fIhost\fP True if the packet used \fIhost\fP as a gateway. I.e., the ethernet source or destination address was \fIhost\fP but neither the IP source nor the IP destination was \fIhost\fP. \fIHost\fP must be a name and must be found in both /etc/hosts and /etc/ethers. (An equivalent expression is .in +.5i .nf \fBether host \fIehost \fBand not host \fIhost\fR .fi .in -.5i which can be used with either names or numbers for \fIhost / ehost\fP.) .IP "\fBdst net \fInet\fR" True if the IP destination address of the packet has a network number of \fInet\fP, which may be either an address or a name. Upper case commands are usually macros: .IP - Indent Paragraph .in - Indent (inches, points, etc) .nf - no fill .fi - fill Embedded commands can change fonts - \fB bold, \fI italics. I forget what \fR and \fP are, but you get the idea. I assume PDP-10 RUNOFF and nroff have a common ancestor, but have never been curious to look into it. The macro language in nroff has variables and string processing functions that let the clever author do some remarkable things. -- <> Eric (Ric) Werme <> This space under reconstruction <> <> <> <> Article 2610 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!uucp6.uu.net!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 In-Reply-To: werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com's message of 4 Feb 97 14:35:40 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:09:29 GMT Lines: 13 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2610 There was R which ran under ITS and used similar dot commands as I remember, and I thought R started life on CTSS. Can't say that with any authority, just vague memories. The point being that there was some relationship between "R" and "RUNOFF", the letter R wasn't coincidental. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | http://www.std.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 2618 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Paul Wexelblat Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Imlac PDS-5? Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 21:41:19 -0500 Organization: None obvious Lines: 22 Message-ID: <32FA964D.31E3@concentric.net> References: <5csjas$4qk@reader.seed.net.tw> <5d8rb7$675@ss1.digex.net> <5dc7rc$qrr@skat.usc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc038040.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80701 comp.text:2954 alt.sys.pdp8:1529 alt.sys.pdp10:2618 alt.sys.pdp11:2162 tli wrote: > > Doug Humphrey wrote: > Does anyone remember the Imlacs? Fortran language only > as far as I know, but I only goofed on them a little bit. > Pretty early devices... > > Yeah, but then again, I'm a Mudder. Mudd had an Imlac running as late as > 1982. > > Tony > -- > Good Happens -- just a whole lot less frequently Yeah, We had an Imlac at BBN in the Early 70's. I don't remember much about it excepth that its assembly language was virtually identical to a DEC system (maybe even the PDP-1) but it had another processor in it that ran some graphics stuff (a "display list). It was sitting back near the MTIMP (The Mag Tape IMP - yes, back then there was a serious attempt to do realtime mag tape transfers over the ARPAnet; this was before TCP/IP, though :-> ) ...wex Article 2621 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!flying!frisbie From: frisbie@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Imlac PDS-5? Message-ID: <1997Feb7.103733.1048@flying-disk.com> Date: 7 Feb 97 10:37:33 PDT References: <5csjas$4qk@reader.seed.net.tw> <5d8rb7$675@ss1.digex.net> Organization: Flying Disk Systems, Inc. Lines: 13 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80751 alt.sys.pdp8:1543 alt.sys.pdp11:2165 comp.text:2957 alt.sys.pdp10:2621 In article <5d8rb7$675@ss1.digex.net>, doug@ss1.digex.net (Doug Humphrey) writes: > Does anyone remember the Imlacs? Remember them? I have an Imlac PDS-1 here in my office, along with the manuals and print sets. The last time I turned it on, it still worked. -- Alan E. Frisbie Frisbie@Flying-Disk.Com -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. -- 4759 Round Top Drive (213) 256-2575 (voice) -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 (213) 258-3585 (FAX) Article 2626 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Paul Wexelblat Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 21:49:41 -0500 Organization: None obvious Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> References: <5csjas$4qk@reader.seed.net.tw> <5de8lo$n2o@news.usf.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc038034.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80824 comp.text:2960 alt.sys.pdp8:1552 alt.sys.pdp10:2626 alt.sys.pdp11:2170 Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > > dski@cameonet.cameo.com.tw wrote: > : I've heard others compare WordStar to nroff, troff, et al, and I can't > : for the life of me figure out where this notion comes from. > > The dot command formatting engine? I could guess, but I expect that it's not common knowledge that WortStar _was_ written by a PDP-1 programmer. Wordsatr (as orifginally written for the Imasi (I think)) predates RUNOFF (predicessor to nroff). I don't know TJ-2, but I did write a text justification program for the PDP-1 that was implemented in Logo. (I also wrote some of Logo, that was written for the PDP-1 in Assembler - Midas (predicessor to MACRO) but that's a different story. Please address specific follows-up to alt.folklore.computers as I dont subscribe to all the crossposted groups mentioned. ...wex Article 2627 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 9 Feb 1997 03:49:34 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5djhge$s2g@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80827 comp.text:2961 alt.sys.pdp8:1554 alt.sys.pdp10:2627 alt.sys.pdp11:2171 From article <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net>, by Paul Wexelblat : > > I could guess, but I expect that it's not common knowledge that WortStar > _was_ written by a PDP-1 programmer. Wordsatr (as orifginally written for the > Imasi (I think)) predates RUNOFF (predicessor to nroff). ????? RUNOFF (on MULTICS) dates from the late 1960's. That begat RUNOFF on the Bell Labs GCOS system (I have the manuals for it that I got when I worked at Bell in 1973), and that begat NROFF and TROFF in around 1973. (The CAT Phototypesetter was still a hot new toy at Murray Hill when I was there). Nothing developed for the IMSAI predates any of this!!!! A far more interesting lineage is the one that links TJ-2 to HTML. Anyone want to lay it out in full? (Hint: HTML grew in the context of SGML, which originally grew in the context of a type formatter on the IBM-360 family, which was based on ideas developed at IBM Cambridge Labs, which had a connection with work done on CTSS at MIT -- the common ancestor from which RUNOFF grew, by the way -- which was, no doubt, inspired by TJ-2.) Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2602 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!nntp1.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: xeno357@ix.netcom.com (Max ben-Aaron) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 3 Feb 1997 22:51:48 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 69 Message-ID: <5d5q64$o22@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos-ma10-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Feb 03 2:51:48 PM PST 1997 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80467 comp.text:2936 alt.sys.pdp8:1502 alt.sys.pdp10:2602 alt.sys.pdp11:2139 High their: In the late 60's & early 70's I worked for a company (Medidata, later Searle Medidata) which started life as a not-for-profit spin-off from Lincoln Lab. (as I have heard), called American Science Institute. The chief engineer, Ed Rawson was a friend of Dec's Olsen and he managed to get hold of the modules used for the prototype PDP-2 which never reached the market. ASI used them to build their own machine (designed, I believe, by Chuck Corderman) which they called "Casino" and was sometimes jocularly referred to as a PDP-2 1/2. Casino was noteworthy for having, very early in trhe game, graphics capabilities. It also had some special terminals which had labels that cannot be repeated on this (family) newsgroup. Mb-A ================================================================= In swestin@dsg145.nad.ford.com (Stephen Westin ) writes: > >In article rjm@europa.ox.ac.uk (Bob Manners) writes: > >> > I have posted a reproduction of the documentation for a VERY early >> > word-processor-like program, which ran on a PDP-1 with 4K words (9K bytes) >> > of RAM in 1963. I think the program was written by Pete Samson, although >> > no names appear in the documentation. >> >> 4Kwords == 9Kb. I take it that the PDP-1 had an 18 bit word length then? > >You betcha. My impression of the PDP genealogy: > >PDP 1,4,7,9,15: 18-bit machines >PDP 5,8,12: 12-bit >PDP 6,10,20: 36-bit >PDP 11: 16-bit >PDP 2: Never built >PDP 3: Designed, never built by DEC, but rumor has it a customer > bought DEC modules and assembled one. Don't know word length. >PDP 13: Never existed >PDP 14: Industrial automation controllers. Don't know word length >PDP 16: Not a machine, but a system of register-transfer modules > (memory, ALU, etc) from which a customer could build various > computer-like devices. I used them in a class at Michigan; I > believe DEC donated lots of 'em after they died in the market. > They came out just in time to be obsoleted by the increasing > level of integrated circuits of the time. > >-Stephen H. Westin >swestin@ford.com >The information and opinions in this message are mine, not Ford's. >-- >-Stephen H. Westin >swestin@ford.com >The information and opinions in this message are mine, not Ford's. Article 2604 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!news.kei.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!news.ford.com!swestin From: swestin@dsg145.nad.ford.com (Stephen Westin ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 04 Feb 1997 13:37:32 GMT Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <5d5qms$bfs@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dsg145.nad.ford.com In-reply-to: xeno357@ix.netcom.com's message of 3 Feb 1997 23:00:44 GMT Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80493 comp.text:2939 alt.sys.pdp8:1505 alt.sys.pdp10:2604 alt.sys.pdp11:2142 In article <5d5qms$bfs@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> xeno357@ix.netcom.com (Max ben-Aaron) writes: > High their: > > Was the PDP-14 "LINC", a commercial version of a control computer built > at MIT'S Lincoln Lab? Nope. The LINC-8 was a PDP-8 (I?) sharing a box (and, I think, memory) with a LINC. It was a commercial product from DEC, and worked because both the '8 and the LINC were 12-bit machines. The LINC had a bunch of analog I/O and was useful for monitoring and controlling lab experiments. The PDP-12 was the next generation of the LINC-8, and the LINCtape evolved into DECtape. I seem to recall that Cooley Lab at the University of Michigan wrote a simple operating system for the LINC-8 which went on to become OS/8. -- -Stephen H. Westin swestin@ford.com The information and opinions in this message are mine, not Ford's. Article 2605 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 4 Feb 1997 15:01:55 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5d7j13$k66@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80496 comp.text:2940 alt.sys.pdp8:1506 alt.sys.pdp10:2605 alt.sys.pdp11:2143 In article <5d5qms$bfs@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> xeno357@ix.netcom.com (Max ben-Aaron) writes: > Was the PDP-14 "LINC", a commercial version of a control computer built > at MIT'S Lincoln Lab? The first LINC was built in 1962 at Lincoln Labs using DEC logic modules. By the end of 1963, an additional 20 or so machines had been built by their end-users. At first, users simply purchased parts from DEC, but then DEC began to sell the parts as a kit -- was this the first computer sold in kit form? -- and as I understand it, DEC even allowed some customers to assemble and test the machine at Maynard and then haul it home ready to run. In late 1964, DEC began to manufacutre and sell ready-to-run LINC systems, made to order. All this happened before the 1965 introduction of the PDP-8 and well before the 1966 introduction of the LINC-8 (a machine that could run both the PDP-8 and LINC instruction sets. Eventually, DEC built and sold 21 LINC systems, while customers built 29. In addition, DEC sold 142 LINC-8 systems, and something like 3500 PDP-12 systems were sold to follow up on that success. Others also came out with LINC clones, for example, the Spear MicroLINC. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2606 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:23:04 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32fa53c5.38320830@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <5d5qms$bfs@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.116.105.92 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80497 comp.text:2941 alt.sys.pdp8:1507 alt.sys.pdp10:2606 alt.sys.pdp11:2144 swestin@dsg145.nad.ford.com (Stephen Westin ) wrote: | In article <5d5qms$bfs@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> xeno357@ix.netcom.com (Max ben-Aaron) writes: | | | | > High their: | > | > Was the PDP-14 "LINC", a commercial version of a control computer built | > at MIT'S Lincoln Lab? | | Nope. The LINC-8 was a PDP-8 (I?) sharing a box (and, I think, memory) | with a LINC. PDP-8. the PDP-8/I-LINC machine was the PDP-12 | It was a commercial product from DEC, and worked because | both the '8 and the LINC were 12-bit machines. The LINC had a bunch of | analog I/O and was useful for monitoring and controlling lab | experiments. The PDP-12 was the next generation of the LINC-8, and the | LINCtape evolved into DECtape. | The PDP-14 was a semi-custom machine controller. David M. Razler david.razler@worldnet.att.net Article 2614 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!uucp6.uu.net!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: A Microsoft Future? (was: VMS vs. WNT Clusters) Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA References: <5c53ph$nep@explorer.csc.com> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 02:53:46 GMT Lines: 22 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com comp.os.vms:59593 alt.sys.pdp10:2614 In article <5c53ph$nep@explorer.csc.com>, Robert Koehler wrote: >Eric Wyn Jones (01248-382407) (e.w.jones@bangor.ac.uk) wrote: > > >: While we are talking history (CDC ,Cyber etc !) > >: Can anybody confirm that the last release of TOPS-10 was 7.02 ? > >No, it was not. After TOPS-10 was retired at about 7.x or so, DEC decided to >make another update in order to add Ethernet support. I think they called >it 10.0 Actually, the last TOPS-10 released by Digital was 7.04. There were some updates which included enough changes some insiders considered the result 7.05. I'm not sure when Ethernet support was added but it was probably 7.01 if not before. I don't know what XKL calls their version of TOPS-10. The web page at toad.xkl.com doesn't say. Sam Article 2631 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!francini From: francini@ultranet.com (John J. Francini) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A Microsoft Future? (was: VMS vs. WNT Clusters) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:26:04 -0500 Organization: Appletree Systems Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <5c53ph$nep@explorer.csc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d24.dial-1.nsh.nh.ultra.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2631 In article , weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) wrote: > In article <5c53ph$nep@explorer.csc.com>, > Robert Koehler wrote: > >Eric Wyn Jones (01248-382407) (e.w.jones@bangor.ac.uk) wrote: > > > > > >: While we are talking history (CDC ,Cyber etc !) > > > >: Can anybody confirm that the last release of TOPS-10 was 7.02 ? > > > >No, it was not. After TOPS-10 was retired at about 7.x or so, DEC decided to > >make another update in order to add Ethernet support. I think they called > >it 10.0 > > Actually, the last TOPS-10 released by Digital was 7.04. There were > some updates which included enough changes some insiders considered > the result 7.05. I'm not sure when Ethernet support was added but it > was probably 7.01 if not before. No, it wasn't until 7.03 that the Ethernet (the NI-20) and the KLIPA CI bus disk/clustering interconnect (CI-20) were supported. I strongly remember being quite envious of the 7.03 ship party T-shirt, which had "CI told you NI knew we could do it!" on the back. (I came into DEC10 Development just after 7.03 shipped.) Now, some versions of in-house 7.02 likely had the KLINIA and KLIPA support in them, but as far as shipping versions went, the first one that went out the door that had the support was 7.03. > > I don't know what XKL calls their version of TOPS-10. The web page > at toad.xkl.com doesn't say. > > Sam Dunno either; when I saw a rough version of TOPS-10 at the San Francisco DECUS in 95 it was 7.04 of some flavor. It would be nice if XKL managed to get the final frozen sources, but I haven't a clue. John Francini -- ---- +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace; | | that two or more are called a law firm; and that three or more become | | a Congress. And by God I have had _this_ Congress!" | | -- John Adams | +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 2630 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!thvv.vip.best.com!user From: thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Augment/NLS Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:38:47 -0800 Organization: Multicians Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: thvv.vip.best.com Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2630 Dr. Douglas Engelbart gave a talk today at JavaSoft about the activities of the Bootstrap Institute. He was going to demonstrate their Open Hyertext system and explained that Augment/NLS had been written for a PDP-10 when he was working at Tymshare in the late 1970s, and that it had never been ported, so the Bootstrap Institute still runs a "DEC-20" system in Fremont, CA. For the demo, Dr. Engelbart set up a Sparc SS-20 which was going to run his software under a PDP-10 simulator. Alas, the demo never got off the ground; due to configuration problems, all we saw was Smalltalk error messages. He said that the little Sparc pizza box outperformed the whole set of PDP-10 cabinets. Article 2635 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!void.agames.com!albaugh From: albaugh@agames.com (Mike Albaugh) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Runoffs (was: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1) Date: 11 Feb 1997 17:09:41 GMT Organization: Atari Games Corporation Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5dq94l$53q@void.agames.com> References: <19970203141600.JAA28526@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5d5nvd$sqt@bonkers.taronga.com> <5diaq1$6cn$2@kirin.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: java.agames.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2635 John Everett (jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com) wrote: : The following is from Bob Clements, the author of DEC's PDP-10 RUNOFF. : The actual origin of RUNOFF on the -10 was indeed me, but I didn't : write it from scratch or from specs. I did a fairly direct translation : of the source code for SDS-940 RUNOFF, which was written at UCB. Hmmm, I thought it looked familiar, but the "Runoff"-like thingy on the [SX]DS-9[34]0 :-) was, AFAIK, called "Autosecretary". I may even have a manual buried in those boxes of books in the attic. I never actually had an account on the '940, being an undergrad at the time, but I _did_ pull cable for its terminals and once even repair one of the boards in the terminal interface. For you young'uns, this was a rack of DEC "System Modules" (Preceded Flip Chips, and were also used on the PDP-6 we had) where each line interface (what we'd call a UART today) used two or three cards. I know the tranmitter and receiver were separate, I just don't recall whether there was also a separate "control" card. Perhaps I can stir some memories out there. These little wonders were so well designed that the later UARTs from Western Digital and General Instruments pretty much copied them verbatim (Perhaps they were designed to DEC spec), and I always get a little peeved when I run into a serial interface that is _less_ well designed but done later (8530, 8250, Rockwell VIA...) Anyway, the odd thing I remember about Autosecretary was that it output a tape that had to be flipped over and fed to a Flexowriter. Apparently Friden and Teletype had differing ideas about where the sprocket holes should go :-) : If you can find a copy of the source code of RUNOFF, you'll see big : sections with registers named A, B and X (I think that's right), Matches my recollection, although as I said before I did not get _that_ close to the machine. Amazing what a machine with 16K of 24-bit words per process (about 64 or 128K total) could do. OTOH, the limited per-process space made "fork" the tool of choice for task decomposition, and I'm still living with _that_ headache today on my company-issue Unix machine, _years_ after per-process address space made single-address-space tasks possible... (I also blame them for making "delete" the default "interrupt" key. Made using the paper-tape reader a real thrill :-) : Today, I suppose you'd get in trouble for that. In those days, it : wasn't that big a deal. Mea culpa." As I recall, Project Genie (the 930->940 conversion and software development) was ARPA-funded, and the source code was freely distributable. Mike | albaugh@agames.com, speaking only for myself Article 2636 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.170.183.55!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!news.uregina.ca!usenet From: bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 11 Feb 1997 20:07:03 GMT Organization: University of Regina, Dept. of Computer Science Lines: 70 Message-ID: <5dqjh7$dkg@sue.cc.uregina.ca> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <01bc0fe8$97d6d740$0b4284a9@wardch> <5cvtfc$22j$3@kirin.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: borealis.cs.uregina.ca Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:80949 comp.text:2968 alt.sys.pdp8:1571 alt.sys.pdp10:2636 alt.sys.pdp11:2186 In article , Alan Bowler wrote: >In article <5cvtfc$22j$3@kirin.wwa.com> jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) writes: >>In article <01bc0fe8$97d6d740$0b4284a9@wardch>, ccw@mail.idt.com says... >>> >>>Along with the knowledge that the Data General Nova was decended from the >>>PDP-8 >>>(Edson DeCastro worked on both) >> >>Ain't revisionist history wonderful! Actually the Nova was descended (as >>opposed to decended) from the PDP-X (or X-project) at DEC. This was DEC's >>first attempt at a 16 bit machine, rejected by the operations committee. >>Eventually a new design emerged as the PDP-11. > >It is not all that revisionist. While the Nova was a 16 bit system, >it had a very pdp-8 flavour to it. The fact that internal to DEC >there was a (rejected) intermediate design between the PDP-8 and the Nova >doesn't much change the fact that it is a "spiritual" decendant of the >PDP-8. Here's what the Great Microprocessors List has to say about the various descendants of the PDP-8 - the complete descriptions are available in the list from my home page,or the CPU Info Center at: http://infopad.eecs.berkeley.edu/CIC/ Great Microprocessors of the Past and Present (V 9.2.2) [...] Section One: Before the Great Dark Cloud. [...] Part V: The 6809, extending the 680x (1977) Like the 6502, the 6809 was based on the Motorola 6800 (1974), which was initially based on the design of the big endian DEC PDP-8, though the 6809 expanded the design significantly. [...] Section Two: Forgotten/Innovative Designs before the Great Dark Cloud [...] Part VI: Intersil 6100, old design in a new package The IMS 6100 was a single chip design of the PDP-8 minicomputer (1965) from DEC (low cost successor to the PDP-5 (1963)). The old PDP-8 design was very strange, and if it hadn't been so popular, an awkward CPU like the 6100 would have never had a reason to exist. [...] Part VII: NOVA, another popular adaptation Like the PDP-8, the Data General Nova was also copied, not just in one, but two implementations - the Data General MN601 (MicroNova), and Fairchild 9440. However, the NOVA was a more mature design (by PDP-8 designer Edson DeCastro, who came to Data General from DEC). [...] Another CPU, the PACE, was based on the NOVA design, but featured 16 bit addressing, more addressing modes, and a 10 level stack (like the 8008). The 32 bit ECLIPSE (pre 1983) was Data General's successor to the 16 bit Nova. [...] Part VIII: Signetics 2650, enhanced accumulator based (1978?) Superficially similar to the PDP-8 (and IMS 6100), the Signetics 2650 was based around a set of 8 bit registers with R0 used as an accumulator, [...] -- John Bayko (Tau). bayko@cs.uregina.ca http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko Article 2638 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rwa From: rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:27:10 GMT Organization: Athabasca University Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5dt21u$f2l@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <01bc0fe8$97d6d740$0b4284a9@wardch> <5cvtfc$22j$3@kirin.wwa.com> <5dqjh7$dkg@sue.cc.uregina.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: aupair.cs.athabascau.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #10 (NOV) Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81013 comp.text:2970 alt.sys.pdp8:1576 alt.sys.pdp10:2638 alt.sys.pdp11:2194 I've edited heavily since my comment is a brief one. bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) writes: > Here's what the Great Microprocessors List has to say about the >various descendants of the PDP-8 - the complete descriptions are [...] > Like the 6502, the 6809 was based on the Motorola 6800 (1974), which >was initially based on the design of the big endian DEC PDP-8, though >the 6809 expanded the design significantly. [...] It's not at all clear to me what the line of descent between a machine (6800) with two accumulators (mostly orthogonal) PC relative displacement branches condition codes 8-bit organization hardware stack index register vectored interrupts (admittedly primitive) and a earlier machine (pdp8) with one accumulator and a totally non-orthogonal quotient register page relative branches no condition codes 12 bit organization no stack no index register (I don't count mem locs 0010 .. 0017 as index registers) flat interrupts might be beyond that fact that they're both small 2s complement von Neumann machines. I've hacked on both and they have totally different `feels'. In short, the 6800 doesn't seem to share a lineage with the pdp8. The intersil 6100, definitely. regards, Ross -- Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca Article 2639 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 12 Feb 1997 20:12:00 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5dt86g$eua@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5dt21u$f2l@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81020 comp.text:2971 alt.sys.pdp8:1580 alt.sys.pdp10:2639 alt.sys.pdp11:2195 bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) writes: > Here's what the Great Microprocessors List has to say about the >various descendants of the PDP-8 - the complete descriptions are > Like the 6502, the 6809 was based on the Motorola 6800 (1974), which >was initially based on the design of the big endian DEC PDP-8, though >the 6809 expanded the design significantly. [...] No! As near as I can tell, the 6800 had nothing to do with the PDP-8. Single accumulator machines were the rule, not the exception, from 1946 when Berks, Goldstein and Von Neumann first proposed the fetch-execute cycle as we know it, and the late 1950's. In the 1960's, virtually all of the significant minicomputers were single-accumulator machines, and strong shawows of that world-view held on in the first generation of microprocessors. The only major micrpocessor today with strong vestiges of this worldview is, of course, the Intel family of 80x86 machines. Anyway, someone needs to get their hands on the documentation for Motorola's first 8-bit processor, the MDP-1000, released in 1968. It wasn't a microprocessor, it was a minicomputer, made with TTL, I think, but I'll lay odds that the 6800 architecture draws on the experience of the MDP-1000 far more than it draws on the PDP-8. Also, John Bayko's list completely missed the HP 21XX series of minicomputers. Both the HP 21XX and DG NOVA series can be described as 16 bit versions of the PDP-8, but in widening the word, the two teams came to different conclusions about what to do with the extra bits (HP used 2 accumulators, DG used 4, and so on). DG was a DEC spinoff, while HP (or rather, an HP subsidiary) was a major OEM customer of DEC PDP-8 hardware in the mid 1960's -- so major that, according to an interview published by CHAC, HP seriously considered buying DEC before they decided to make their own machines. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2646 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!news.clark.net!gagner From: gagner@clark.net () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 15 Feb 1997 00:38:27 GMT Organization: The Washington Law Group PC Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> References: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> <5djhge$s2g@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 100-explorer.clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81185 comp.text:2982 alt.sys.pdp8:1600 alt.sys.pdp10:2646 alt.sys.pdp11:2212 In article <5djhge$s2g@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: >From article <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net>, >by Paul Wexelblat : > >(The CAT Phototypesetter was still a hot new toy at Murray Hill when I >was there). > I'm probably wrong on the 'who was first' here, but the Typeset-10 group at DEC (Tim Stein and myself, and others) wrote a driver for the CAT pretty early after its introduction. It was a neat little typesetting machine, and we were glad to get one because it was the first 'real' typesetting machine we had in house. I recall the date as 1973-74 or so, but could be wrong. Others who worked on Typeset-10 included Dan Bricklin. Typeset-10 was roughly modeled after Typeset-8, which was a wildly popular newspaper production system. The -10 version (in MACRO-10) had a number of innovative features, including a neat hyphenation algorithm that used a cute hashing algorithm derived from the -10's ability to do infinite level indirection and clever bit operations. It ran circles around anything else that we knew of. The Typeset-10 language was, in fact, modeled after the way that MIDAS (the -10 assembler at MIT) handled macros. You could do integer arithmetic in it, using the algorithms from Peter Sampson's wonderful STRING language, which allowed for infinite precision. Also, if you wanted, you could ouput the results directly was word strings in english, or as roman numerals. Originally, Typset-10 had been planned to use RUNOFF syntax, but it was clear that such a syntax was too cumbersome. Some vestiges remained, which was unfortunate or we would have invented TEX. > >A far more interesting lineage is the one that links TJ-2 to HTML. Anyone >want to lay it out in full? (Hint: HTML grew in the context of SGML, >which originally grew in the context of a type formatter on the IBM-360 >family, which was based on ideas developed at IBM Cambridge Labs, which >had a connection with work done on CTSS at MIT -- the common ancestor >from which RUNOFF grew, by the way -- which was, no doubt, inspired by >TJ-2.) I recall using RUNOFF or something very like it on the 7094 CTSS system at MIT, which would have been in the mid/late sixties, and of course MIT-AI later had a much more powerful version for both the PDP-6 and later for the PDP-10. So I'd put the evolutionary chain as CTSS --> MULTICS/MIT-AI and lots of branches after that. None of which is to speak of Electric Typewriter, and the many other efforts that were going on at the same time, including a truly bizzare text processor in use on the Phoenix machine at MITRE, which Joe Morris probably remembers much better than I do. Article 2648 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!eastnews1.East.Sun.COM!walters.East.Sun.COM!usenet From: rdh@urq (Robert Houk - SMCC Bos Desktop Hardware) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 16 Feb 1997 17:22:18 -0500 Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. -- SMCC ESSG/WGS Lines: 43 Sender: rdh@urq Message-ID: References: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> <5djhge$s2g@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> Reply-To: rdh@UrQ.East.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: urq.east.sun.com In-reply-to: gagner@clark.net's message of 15 Feb 1997 00:38:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp8:1613 alt.sys.pdp10:2648 alt.sys.pdp11:2215 In article <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> gagner@clark.net () writes: >(The CAT Phototypesetter was still a hot new toy at Murray Hill when I >was there). I'm probably wrong on the 'who was first' here, but the Typeset-10 group at DEC (Tim Stein and myself, and others) wrote a driver for the CAT pretty early after its introduction. It was a neat little typesetting machine, and we were glad to get one because it was the first 'real' typesetting machine we had in house. I recall the date as 1973-74 or so, but could be wrong. Others who worked on Probably pretty accurate, as the CAT (wasn't it "CATT" or "C/A/T/T", or something like that?) was "well established" (and later nicknamed by me as the "grind grind stink stink" machine) by the end of 1975 when I got there and inherited ITPS-10 (aka Typeset-10 in drag). Typeset-10 included Dan Bricklin. Typeset-10 was roughly modeled after Typeset-8, which was a wildly popular newspaper production system. The -10 version (in MACRO-10) had a number of innovative features, including a neat hyphenation algorithm that used a cute hashing algorithm derived from the -10's ability to do infinite level indirection and clever bit operations. It ran circles around anything else that we knew of. As I very vaguely recall, I timed it at around 2000 lines/second on a KI-10, which I thought was pretty amazing, all things considered. Originally, Typset-10 had been planned to use RUNOFF syntax, but it was clear that such a syntax was too cumbersome. Some vestiges remained, which was unfortunate or we would have invented TEX. I wrote a RUNOFF macro for it, and managed to hornswoggle a friend into completing Conklin's (?) abortive RUNOFF/TYPESET interface, so we could take standard RUNOFF input and "typeset it". People were pretty amazed to see hyphenated RUNOFF output come out on the line- printers, let-alone proportionally-spaced stuff on the Diablo! (Don't think we ever quite mastered footnotes, though...) Ah, the good ole days . . . I *still* don't like WYSIWSYG formatters like Word et al (although they do make tables a *lot* easier) -RDH Article 2649 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!d7 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 97 16:36:46 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: <5e9sl4$2i5$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> <5djhge$s2g@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d7.dial-13.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2649 In article , rdh@urq (Robert Houk - SMCC Bos Desktop Hardware) wrote: >In article <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> gagner@clark.net () writes: > > >(The CAT Phototypesetter was still a hot new toy at Murray Hill when I > >was there). > > I'm probably wrong on the 'who was first' here, but the Typeset-10 > group at DEC (Tim Stein and myself, and others) wrote a driver for > the CAT pretty early after its introduction. It was a neat little > typesetting machine, and we were glad to get one because it was > the first 'real' typesetting machine we had in house. I recall the > date as 1973-74 or so, but could be wrong. Others who worked on > >Probably pretty accurate, as the CAT (wasn't it "CATT" or "C/A/T/T", >or something like that?) was "well established" (and later nicknamed >by me as the "grind grind stink stink" machine) by the end of 1975 >when I got there and inherited ITPS-10 (aka Typeset-10 in drag). > > Typeset-10 included Dan Bricklin. Typeset-10 was roughly modeled > after Typeset-8, which was a wildly popular newspaper production > system. The -10 version (in MACRO-10) had a number of innovative > features, including a neat hyphenation algorithm that used a cute > hashing algorithm derived from the -10's ability to do infinite > level indirection and clever bit operations. It ran circles around > anything else that we knew of. > >As I very vaguely recall, I timed it at around 2000 lines/second on >a KI-10, which I thought was pretty amazing, all things considered. > > Originally, Typset-10 had been planned to use RUNOFF syntax, but > it was clear that such a syntax was too cumbersome. Some vestiges > remained, which was unfortunate or we would have invented TEX. > >I wrote a RUNOFF macro for it, and managed to hornswoggle a friend >into completing Conklin's (?) abortive RUNOFF/TYPESET interface, so >we could take standard RUNOFF input and "typeset it". People were >pretty amazed to see hyphenated RUNOFF output come out on the line- >printers, let-alone proportionally-spaced stuff on the Diablo! >(Don't think we ever quite mastered footnotes, though...) > >Ah, the good ole days . . . I *still* don't like WYSIWSYG formatters >like Word et al (although they do make tables a *lot* easier). 'ey Bob! I remember using that software to create great galleys. I also remember using your terminal, GT-40?maybe?. I seem to remember that it sounded like a small airplane. I would type in RUNOFF format, run the .RNO file through some kind of pre-formatter and then (somehow) get it printed on the machine that was on MRO-1. It produced great copy; a great leap forward from the Diablo. By the way, this is my first test of entering an item using this ISP. (AOL became a swear when it started to tell me to get off the system!). /BAH Article 2650 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp2.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!bh From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 17 Feb 1997 16:49:27 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 7 Message-ID: <5ea26n$1bk@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> <5e9sl4$2i5$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu Xref: nntp2.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2650 People in this thread have been comparing RUNOFF and friends with TeX. You might be interested to know that the PDP-10 was the host for an early TeX precursor, the professional typesetting system that I worked on (along with Lowell Hawkinson and some others) at Composition Technology circa 1970, I believe the first program that handled high-quality typesetting of mathematical formulas from user input in math terms rather than exact positional terms. Article 2619 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!bh From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 17 Feb 1997 16:49:27 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 7 Message-ID: <5ea26n$1bk@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <32FD3B43.5A91@concentric.net> <5e30i3$52s@clarknet.clark.net> <5e9sl4$2i5$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu People in this thread have been comparing RUNOFF and friends with TeX. You might be interested to know that the PDP-10 was the host for an early TeX precursor, the professional typesetting system that I worked on (along with Lowell Hawkinson and some others) at Composition Technology circa 1970, I believe the first program that handled high-quality typesetting of mathematical formulas from user input in math terms rather than exact positional terms. Article 2623 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.172.62.14!world!mv!news.wizvax.net!wilson From: wilson@dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Need RM03 packs... Date: 19 Feb 1997 03:29:45 GMT Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5eds39$5po$1@news.wizvax.net> References: <5edlph$gab@student.computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com In article <5edlph$gab@student.computer.org>, Chris Zach wrote: >So does anyone have any RM03 >packs that I could pick up? Preferably clean... I *had* some, haven't seen them in a while... I also found a place in MD that could clean + inspect them for something like $30-40 each, worth it if you don't want to trash your drive. >On a related note, I could use some filters for my RM02/03 drives. Does >anyone still sell them, or is this going to be a limited resource... I feel sure DEC still sells them, I've got a slightly oldish DAS catalog in front of me that gives the part # as 29-22925-00 but doesn't have a listing for it except as part of the PM kit 4A-PM116-00, which costs $131 but supposedly includes 2 of the filters and 10 prefilters (y'know, the things that the manual says to wash in warm soapy water but if you do they turn to dust and disappear). >Final question: Does anyone know if the RM80 supported 18bit access? They >have some more space than a RM02, and do use less current.... YES, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You *must* add a jumper between pins E06E1 and E06C2 of the RM adapter backplane (that's the cage that slides out of the base), and then you'll need to reformat it, but MARK in the ITS salvager does that just fine (note that as distributed, the RM80 version of NSALV 260 needs a patch to work correctly, see ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp10/its/build.info). The KS10 that I ran under ITS at Fornax in '92/'93 had an RM80 system disk and worked great, and running on 115V with no air filters is a Good Thing. John Wilson D Bit Article 2630 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 21 Feb 1997 18:17:16 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Midwestern Internet Services (www.wwa.com) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5ekorc$pr1$3@kirin.wwa.com> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <33052C5D.7312BF22@swec.com> <1997Feb20.143227.27963@indyvax.iupui.edu> <5ej2j4$3q5@student.computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool18-019.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81355 comp.text:2998 alt.sys.pdp10:2630 In article <5ej2j4$3q5@student.computer.org>, cz@alembic.crystel.com says... > >> The IBM 360/44 used core for all kinds of stuff that you might not expect, >> including registers. Again real registers were an extra-cost option I >believe. >> (It's also been many moons since I worked on one of these.) But you >couldn't >> load inner loops into the registers and jump to them like TECO reputedly >did on >> the PDP-10. > >Of course, the untimate hell was the PDP-8/S. With a 1 bit accumulator (ok, a >flip flop) I think it sequenced the instructions and data through the flip >flop one bit at a time. A true serial computer.... And performance to match. As a charter member of the PDP-8 programming group (when the "group" was Roger Pyle and me) I had to test everything I wrote for PDP-8/S compatibility. Some of the most boring hours I've ever spent. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2659 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.71.28.14!cmgi.com!usenet From: "Aron K. Insinga" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RIM10B bootstrap loader for the PDP-10 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 11:18:34 -0500 Organization: InfoMation Publishing Corporation Lines: 11 Message-ID: <331C4B5A.F9A@infomation.com> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <331A2ABB.7E05D27@swec.com> <5ffgdt$n2v@ss1.digex.net> <331B6E04.6FCF255E@swec.com> <5fft1m$pf2@ss1.digex.net> <331B7CDC.F650253@swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wd26.cmgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81970 alt.sys.pdp10:2659 Related story (from memory, so caveat emptor): They were built in areas of plants (ML, MR) which didn't have a raised floor with air conditioning blown underneath, so they took clean air from above and blew it down through the machine. If you did have such a raised floor, there was an ECO to reverse the fans to suck cold air up through the cabinets from underneath the floor. This also required turning the backplane for some option upside down in its cabinet to prevent the hot components that were carefully placed on one edge of the board from heating up the rest of the board. - Aron Insinga Article 2652 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Cooling airflow (was: RIM10B bootstrap loader for the PDP-10) Date: 6 Mar 1997 21:54:27 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5fneej$ghu@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81941 alt.sys.pdp10:2652 In article <331E24F3.259D6085@swec.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: > "Top-down" airflow was very common in DEC machines, the argument > being that some of these systems will be used in dirty environments > like factory floors. I know that the PDP-12 I just got through > resurrecting features top-down cooling, as did a couple of the -10s > that I worked on early on in my career (they got converted to bottom- > up cooling). Quote from DEC's Small Computer Handbook, 1973, page 8-11: ... in general, air enters standard cabinets through the top filter and exits at the bottom ... This applies to the standard DEC H960 "basic cabinet", a 6 foot 19" (EIA standard mounting rails) relay rack with side skins, rear door and fan/filter assembly built into the top. This cabinet was used for all kinds of DEC computer systems of that era, from the 12 bit PDP-8 on up into the 16-bit PDP-11, 18-bit PDP-15, and into the 36 bit world (although I think the PDP-10 CPU used a custom wide cabinet, with rows of H960 cabinets for peripheral interfaces). The earlier CAB-1 through CAB-8 series of DEC cabinets used prior to 1968 were built with a fan in the bottom. I don't know which way the air flowed in these cabinets, but the original PDP-8, 1966, had bottom up flow with the fans in the power supply assembly halfway up the cabinet and just below the CPU. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu Article 2651 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.this.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Cooling airflow (was: RIM10B bootstrap loader for the PDP-10) Date: 6 Mar 1997 22:24:12 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5fng6c$i7n@top.mitre.org> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <331A2ABB.7E05D27@swec.com> <5ffgdt$n2v@ss1.digex.net> <331B6E04.6FCF255E@swec.com> <5fft1m$pf2@ss1.digex.net> <331B7CDC.F650253@swec.com> <331C4B5A.F9A@infomation.com> <331E24F3.259D6085@swec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81920 alt.sys.pdp10:2651 swestin@dsg145.nad.ford.com (Stephen Westin ) writes: > "Carl R. Friend" writes: >> "Top-down" airflow was very common in DEC machines, the argument >> being that some of these systems will be used in dirty environments >> like factory floors. I know that the PDP-12 I just got through >> resurrecting features top-down cooling, as did a couple of the -10s >> that I worked on early on in my career (they got converted to bottom- >> up cooling). >I've used a number of DEC machines with top-down cooling. I've also >used the Evans & Sutherland PS390, which originally had bottom-up >cooling. Within a few months, the filter on the bottom had clogged, >causing it to overheat. The workaround was to rip the filter out until >the field engineer could come out and flip the fans for top-down flow >so it would ingest less dust. OTOH, at a PPOE we had a brand-new KL10 that ate circuit cards at an alarming rate (all at DEC's expense) until the airflow was turned around to use the air coming up from the raised flooring. DEC had been made aware that (like most computer rooms of the time) we used underfloor cooling exclusively, but still insisted on delivering and installing the machine with top-down airflow. DEC had some wonderful design concepts in the KL10, coupled with hideous physical implementations. My biggest squawk about the machine (I wasn't responsible for the KL10, but was involved with the electrical power for the computer center) was that that the machine was dumping ~15A of current down the ground wire, and the DEC CE could not understand why I was upset. (The KL10 used 3-phase AC power; there was significant current in the *neutral* line because the loads were badly unbalanced, but that's at least within Code specs. Current in the *ground* wire isn't supposed to be present.) Joe Morris Article 2658 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom6!alderson From: alderson@netcom6.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: RIM10B bootstrap loader for the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: doug@ss1.digex.net's message of 3 Mar 1997 20:14:30 -0500 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom6.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <331A2ABB.7E05D27@swec.com> <5ffgdt$n2v@ss1.digex.net> <331B6E04.6FCF255E@swec.com> <5fft1m$pf2@ss1.digex.net> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:49:08 GMT Lines: 15 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81967 alt.sys.pdp10:2658 In article <5fft1m$pf2@ss1.digex.net> doug@ss1.digex.net (Doug Humphrey) writes: >By the by, does anyone here know who I should contact at Compuserve to talk >about all of the 10's that they are discarding? They discarded all the DEC equipment quite some time ago, I believe, retiring it in favour of Systems Concepts boxen. There's only one guy in the entire company these days who knows anything at all about 36-bit computing; I imagine he's nervous... -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 2650 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!shell3.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@shell3.ba.best.com (Smith and O'Halloran) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RIM10B bootstrap loader for the PDP-10 Date: 6 Mar 1997 11:23:58 -0800 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5fn5ke$c6v@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <5ctbdp$cjd$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <331708A1.41C6@s054.aone.net.au> <331A2ABB.7E05D27@swec.com> <5ffgdt$n2v@ss1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:81910 alt.sys.pdp10:2650 In article <5ffgdt$n2v@ss1.digex.net>, Doug Humphrey wrote: >Yep - in the KA, the FM was able to turn on/off mainly because >there were KA machines out there which didn't have the FM option >(though, not too many of them) because back then this was damned >expensive stuff. At the going-away party for Stanford's PDP-10s, someone had an old catalog of 36-bit systems. It listed the 1010, 1020, 1030 and 1040 models. I asked about the KA's without FM and byte hardware, and he said that although DEC had such items in the catalog, none were ever sold. All customers opted for Fast Memory and byte-manipulation/floating-point hardware. I would like to know if there are any counterexamples; sites that admit to purchasing a KA without FM and FP. (I do not believe there are any.) I would also like to know there are any of these ancient catalogs still around. I want to get them scanned and posted to my website. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran and our cats See http://www.inwap.com/ for "ReBoot", PDP-10, and Clan MacLeod. Article 2667 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!europa.clark.net!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jimpy@aol.com (Jimpy) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RIM10B bootstrap loader for the PDP-10 Date: 7 Mar 1997 13:03:26 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 8 Message-ID: <19970307130300.IAA09156@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <5fn5ke$c6v@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com I worked in manufactiring on the PDP-10. I can't remember if any machines went to customer sites without the FM option on the KA10, but I do remember that a few machines were shipped without the floating point option. Jimpy Article 2671 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!news From: spring1@insync.net (spring1) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: 10's Inside DEC Date: 12 Mar 1997 02:28:24 GMT Organization: Insync Internet Services Lines: 4 Message-ID: <5g54c8$sqo@synthemesc.insync.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-164-75.insync.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Beta 3) (x86 32bit) Anyone here ever work at one of DEC's internal datacenters that used 10's? PK-1 was the biggest datacenter - full of them back in the late 70's & 80's. Article 2674 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jimpy@aol.com (Jimpy) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: 10's Inside DEC Date: 13 Mar 1997 01:44:59 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 5 Message-ID: <19970313014401.UAA03696@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <5g54c8$sqo@synthemesc.insync.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com I worked at the Westfield and Westminster data centers, latter transfered to Maynard, worked mainlt in the mill, but visited PK-1 quite often. Jimpy Article 2680 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!news From: spring1@insync.net (spring1) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: 10's Inside DEC Date: 14 Mar 1997 02:07:50 GMT Organization: Insync Internet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5gabtm$l7c@synthemesc.insync.net> References: <5g54c8$sqo@synthemesc.insync.net> <19970313014401.UAA03696@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-164-78.insync.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Beta 3) (x86 32bit) I worked in PK3, and then PK1 when it became DEC's main corporate datacenter. I wrote & supported many of the applications on the 10's 20's & RSTS machines. It was always impressive to go into the computer room. There must have been a half dozen 10's there, and a 2 or 3 20's, and a bunch of 11's. The computer room was the size of a football field (in fact I believe a football was tossed around in there during some 3rd shifts...) The whole place hummed from the systems and dozens of disk drives. Lots of funny stories. Like the time there was a water leak from the roof, and someone covered some of the 10's with the plastic emergency covers - but didn't turn them off... Had some memory problems for a while after that. DEC had a number of other datacenters running 10's: Westminster, Marlboro, The Mill, Westfield, Colorado Springs, Gevena, Galway Ireland, Puerto Rico, Nashua NH, Ayr Scotland, Phoenix, Reading England, Kaufbeuren Germany, probably a few more I don't remember. They were all connected very early on (early 70's) with an imprssive network for the time. Article 2672 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!d12 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 15:37:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 68 Message-ID: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <3314d52e.72198967@news.bright.net> <01bc2728$a1c8d580$7309cc96@eeestayl> <5fg8or$emo$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <01bc29c3$50cff9e0$6f09cc96@default> <5g4c08$96b$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> NNTP-Posting-Host: d12.dial-15.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:82132 alt.sys.pdp10:2672 In article <5g4c08$96b$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>, bqt@Zeke.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) wrote: >In <01bc29c3$50cff9e0$6f09cc96@default> "Slarty Bartfast" writes: > >>Johnny Billquist wrote in article >>> 4. What's your problem with 3-4 foot disks, or 3-phase motors? Both >>> were the normal look in the '60s and '70s... >>> >>> You are obviously a bit young for this... ;-) >>> >>> (I know of someone who burned a VAX8600 by reversing two phases just >>> a few years ago...) >>> >>> However, the story could a just a legend anyway, but from a technical >>> point of view, there is nothing wrong with it. >> >> Well i guess I have shown my age here, but it was a new one for me. >>I would love to here more about these *Monster* drives. > >Monster and monster... We have a couple of RP06 drives stored away here, which use 3-phase motors for the drives. They are approximately 1x1x1 meter, >176 Mbyte. The core drive is a Memorex, but DEC added a Massbus interface to >it, which is a box attached to the side of the main drive. > >I think the drive has something like 7 platters (just from memory, I'm not >looking at any from where I'm sitting), which means 14 surfaces. Of these, >the top and bottom surface isn't used, which leaves 12 usable surfaces. >The heads a pulled by a huge electronic magnet. There are some cute stickers >inside the drive about removing wrist watches and rings before servicing. >Also, you have a locking pin, which you can insert through the magnet, >to avoid a head movement. The mass and speed of the heads are enough to >remove a finger from your hand. > >I think the average seek time is something like 25 ms. > >Then we have th RP07, which is about the same physical size, 506 Mbyte >capacity. This one don't have removeable packs, but is faster. > >Each arm has two heads to reduce head movement, and there is an amplifier >directly on the head to pick up the signal. > >It can pump data at about 2.2 Mbyte/second, seek is less than 20 ms, >and it's a pretty nice drive, I think. :-) > Oh, dear! I think I'm beginning to feel my age. I _still_ don't consider the RP01/2/4/6s to be monsters; and the RP07s are new young things [tongue in cheek emoticon here]. I consider the monsters to be things like the Bryant Drum; they _were_ hazardous to your health just by running (usually after you). Another story is that JMF leaned against an RP04 (they were really good as a door jamb to lean against when talking to somebody) and later discovered that his credit cards weren't any good w.r.t. the magnetic strip. Also, when TW wrote the TOPS10 device driver for the RP07, I heard him remark that he didn't see the need for this disk drive. He figured that the disk space provided by the RP07 was overkill and that noone needed so much space. I really heard him figure that, assuming no one ever deleted a file on the RP07, it would take years to fill up that disk---three months later, he verbally ate his words; JMF and I made sure of that [grinning emoticon here]. /BAH Article 2678 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jimpy@aol.com (Jimpy) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: 14 Mar 1997 00:17:45 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com The RP06 has 20 surfaces, 19 are Read/Write surfaces for data and one surface is a servo track used to position the heads over the desired track. Yes, the RP06 has a 3 phase motor and it's phase sensitive. If the phases are not in the proper sequence the drive would never come on-line. Lots of fun when the customers electricians are doing some work or even the public utility decides to make some changes. The RD10(Bryant Drum) was also phase sensitive. The RP07 used a sealed Head-Disk Assembly (HDA), when it failed, and it failed very often the whole HDA was replaced at large prices to DEC. Don't foget the famous Bucode TU40 tape drives. You could write a tape and 5 minutes latter you were lucky if you could read it back. Jimpy Article 2686 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!d24 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 14:51:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: d24.dial-33.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 In article <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, "Henry W. Miller" wrote: >Jimpy wrote: >> >> The RP06 has 20 surfaces, 19 are Read/Write surfaces for data and one >> surface is a servo track used to position the heads over the desired >> track. >> >> Yes, the RP06 has a 3 phase motor and it's phase sensitive. If the phases >> are not in the proper sequence the drive would never come on-line. Lots of >> fun when the customers electricians are doing some work or even the public >> utility decides to make some changes. The RD10(Bryant Drum) was also phase >> sensitive. >> >> The RP07 used a sealed Head-Disk Assembly (HDA), when it failed, and it >> failed very often the whole HDA was replaced at large prices to DEC. >> > > At the USBR, we found that the RP07's had a MTBF of about 18 months. >If one lasted 19 months, I started getting twitchy and planning for a >six hour downtime to replace and restore. But, damn, they wre fast! > >> Don't foget the famous Bucode TU40 tape drives. You could write a tape and >> 5 minutes latter you were lucky if you could read it back. >> > > How about TU45's and their "write-only" tapes? > Chuckle...I was wondering when somebody would remember those pain-in-the-neck tapes...TW (who usually did the magtape device drivers in TOPS10) always claimed that "god did not mean for there to be magtapes". After using TU45s and dealing with maintenance/development of BACKUP, I had to agree. The ones I did like were the TU70s; those babies could hum! /BAH Article 2689 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: 17 Mar 1997 21:40:13 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access (tm) - Midwestern Internet Services http://www.wwa.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5gkdnt$aq1$1@kirin.wwa.com> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool3-010.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) In article <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net>, jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com says... > >TW (who usually did the magtape device drivers in TOPS10) > >/BAH Barb: Okay, now I'm hurt. -- jeverett@wwa.com (John V. Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 2691 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!d11 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 14:56:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Message-ID: <5gm5td$pd0$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net> <5gkdnt$aq1$1@kirin.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Lines: 22 In article <5gkdnt$aq1$1@kirin.wwa.com>, jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote: >In article <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net>, jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com says... >> >>TW (who usually did the magtape device drivers in TOPS10) >> > >Barb: > >Okay, now I'm hurt. > Oh, John. Mea culpa, mea culpa. I was remembering the Marlboro days when I was part of that wonderful group on a day to day basis. I humbly ask your forgiveness for not remembering those wonderful Mill days when I only tasted the flavor of the atmosphere 1/2 day a week (when I editted the monitor). I really should write about the day that you and Tom Hastings had a discussion about a MONGEN edit with me in physically in the middle of it all! May I? /BAH Article 2698 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: David G Cressey <73230.1665@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Other bootstraps. Date: 20 Mar 1997 21:04:27 GMT Organization: CRESSEY CONSULTING & SW Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5gs8or$g1l$1@mhafn.production.compuserve.com> All this talk about the RIM10B reminds me of a bootstrap I had to write. It had to fit in 16 words. Not the accumulators, but, I think, locations 20 through 37. It had to load ITS (well, actually a secondary loader that would load ITS) from a disk. Not only the pdp-10 code but also the channel program had to reside in the 16 words. That was tight! For those of you who may not recognize the reference, ITS was the incompatible timesharing system, which was built at the MIT AI lab to run their PDP-10s. I worked at Dynamic Modelling, just down the hall from AI. Regards, David Cressey -- | Any opinions expressed in this message are mine alone. | | 73230.1665@compuserve.com | Voice: 413-648-9523 | Article 2699 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!bh From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Other bootstraps. Date: 21 Mar 1997 01:26:14 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 5 Message-ID: <5gso3m$mm7@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <5gs8or$g1l$1@mhafn.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu Much as I love RIM10B, I think the award for tightest-coded bootstrap of all time has to go to the IBM 7094. Remember that? When you hit the "Load Cards" button on the console, the machine read three (3) words from a punch card, which then had to read in the rest of the card, and then a magtape. Article 2704 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:37:10 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5gurl4$og3@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net> <33328CFE.56BB@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca24-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Mar 21 2:39:00 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 "Henry W. Miller" wrote: >jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: >> >> In article <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, >> "Henry W. Miller" wrote: >> >Jimpy wrote: >> >> >> >> [RP06 ancecote] >> >> >> > >> >[RP07 anecdote] >> > >> >>[TU40 anecdote] >> >> >> > >> > How about TU45's and their "write-only" tapes? >> > >>[TU45 and TU70] >[SC SA-10] > While we're on the subject of old disks, I remember a particularly >nasty head crash at my old college involving an RP01 or RP02. I forget >which nowadays. Anyway, if you've ever seen the movie "The Wrath of >Kahn", when the Enterprise finally gets a shot off at the bridge of the >Reliant? That's how the top of the drive looked - there was glass and >aluminum shards all over the computer room, some of them embedded in the >wall! If some poor soul had been in the computer room at that time, >they would have been seriously injured, perhaps killed! Not likely an RP01. DEC took delivery of eight. No RP01s ever left the engineering development lab (5-0 and KA10 #1). The RP02s were working before any RP10 was installed in the software development lab (12-1 and KA10 #2). DEC talked Memorex into taking the RP01s back even though they were painted in DEC colors. - - - RP10 (controller for RP02) Project Engineer 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com Article 2714 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!d2 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 15:42:34 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5hbbmo$j9r$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net> <33328CFE.56BB@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gurl4$og3@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d2.dial-16.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2714 In article <5gurl4$og3@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) wrote: >"Henry W. Miller" wrote: > >>jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: >>> >>> In article <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, >>> "Henry W. Miller" wrote: >>> >Jimpy wrote: >>> >> >>> >> [RP06 ancecote] >>> >> >>> > >>> >[RP07 anecdote] >>> > >>> >>[TU40 anecdote] >>> >> >>> > >>> > How about TU45's and their "write-only" tapes? >>> > >>>[TU45 and TU70] > >>[SC SA-10] > >> While we're on the subject of old disks, I remember a particularly >>nasty head crash at my old college involving an RP01 or RP02. I forget >>which nowadays. Anyway, if you've ever seen the movie "The Wrath of >>Kahn", when the Enterprise finally gets a shot off at the bridge of the >>Reliant? That's how the top of the drive looked - there was glass and >>aluminum shards all over the computer room, some of them embedded in the >>wall! If some poor soul had been in the computer room at that time, >>they would have been seriously injured, perhaps killed! > >Not likely an RP01. DEC took delivery of eight. No RP01s >ever left the engineering development lab (5-0 and KA10 #1). >The RP02s were working before any RP10 was installed in >the software development lab (12-1 and KA10 #2). DEC talked >Memorex into taking the RP01s back even though they were >painted in DEC colors. >- - - >RP10 (controller for RP02) Project Engineer >21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 >Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com > Ah, we have something in common! I was the last developer to use System #2 before DEC got rid of it. Just wanted to let you know how long that particular piece of hardware lasted. I used System #2 to develop the USAGE accounting system. Nobody else wanted to use a KA (KLs were in vogue then) and it was a marvelous little system, hidden away in deep bowels of MR1-2. /BAH Article 2717 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!miwok!HSNX.wco.com!news.wco.com!not-for-mail From: "Henry W. Miller" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:54:20 -0800 Organization: USBR Lines: 73 Message-ID: <333A35BC.42D7@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> References: <5g6e1n$lf$1@decius.ultra.net> <19970314001700.TAA01630@ladder01.news.aol.com> <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gjh80$r9v$1@decius.ultra.net> <33328CFE.56BB@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> <5gurl4$og3@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> <5hbbmo$j9r$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hmiller.mistic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2717 jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: > > In article <5gurl4$og3@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, > JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) wrote: > >"Henry W. Miller" wrote: > > > >>jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: > >>> > >>> In article <332BE18B.88B@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, > >>> "Henry W. Miller" wrote: > >>> >Jimpy wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> [RP06 ancecote] > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> >[RP07 anecdote] > >>> > > >>> >>[TU40 anecdote] > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > How about TU45's and their "write-only" tapes? > >>> > > >>>[TU45 and TU70] > > > >>[SC SA-10] > > > >> While we're on the subject of old disks, I remember a particularly > >>nasty head crash at my old college involving an RP01 or RP02. I forget > >>which nowadays. Anyway, if you've ever seen the movie "The Wrath of > >>Kahn", when the Enterprise finally gets a shot off at the bridge of the > >>Reliant? That's how the top of the drive looked - there was glass and > >>aluminum shards all over the computer room, some of them embedded in the > >>wall! If some poor soul had been in the computer room at that time, > >>they would have been seriously injured, perhaps killed! > > > >Not likely an RP01. DEC took delivery of eight. No RP01s > >ever left the engineering development lab (5-0 and KA10 #1). > >The RP02s were working before any RP10 was installed in > >the software development lab (12-1 and KA10 #2). DEC talked > >Memorex into taking the RP01s back even though they were > >painted in DEC colors. > >- - - > >RP10 (controller for RP02) Project Engineer > >21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 > >Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com > > > Ah, we have something in common! I was the last developer to use System #2 > before DEC got rid of it. Just wanted to let you know how long that > particular piece of hardware lasted. I used System #2 to develop the > USAGE accounting system. Nobody else wanted to use a KA (KLs were in vogue > then) and it was a marvelous little system, hidden away in deep bowels of > MR1-2. > > /BAH Yes, they were great machines. Does anyone here remember "System 26", the KA-10 built from scrap at Bedford-U, not the KL system 1026. ? (Or BEDFRD::, the DEC training facility at Bedford, MA) If Dave Cressey is hanging around, I'm sure that he does. A guy named Del Lippert was in charge of Ed Services at Bedford. The BEDFRD:: node was also the only system as I recall on the DEC internal network to buck the "Digital Standard Node Naming Procedure". I asked Cressey why that was, and it stated that it was "A Del-Lippert-ate act..." System 26 was the Energizer Bunny of the PDP-10 world, it just kept running and running and running. None of the cabinents were painted quite the same shade of blue, and even the black cabinents were finished different. -HWM Article 2719 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!compuserve.com!newsgate.compuserve.com!not-for-mail From: David Cressey Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Old disk stories (Was--Doubtful Story I stand corrected) Date: 27 Mar 1997 18:00:42 GMT Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Lines: 63 Message-ID: <5hecka$4rd$1@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hd64-150.compuserve.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2719 "Henry W. Miller" writes: > > Yes, they were great machines. Does anyone here remember "System > 26", the KA-10 built from scrap at Bedford-U, not the KL system 1026. ? > (Or BEDFRD::, the DEC training facility at Bedford, MA) If Dave Cressey > is hanging around, I'm sure that he does. A guy named Del Lippert was > in > charge of Ed Services at Bedford. The BEDFRD:: node was also the only > system as I recall on the DEC internal network to buck the "Digital > Standard > Node Naming Procedure". I asked Cressey why that was, and it stated > that > it was "A Del-Lippert-ate act..." > > System 26 was the Energizer Bunny of the PDP-10 world, it > just kept running and running and running. None of the cabinents > were painted quite the same shade of blue, and even the black cabinents > were finished different. > > -HWM Hmmm... Here's my recollection: System 26 was reconstituted in the lab at Marlboro, not Bedford U. Before Ed Services concentrated its Boston area training in Bedford, there was Maynard for minicomputers, and Marlboro for Tens and Twentys. We had been using the services of the KL in the fishbowl to support our courses, but we were faced with too many cases where our students were descheduled from labs to make room for that KLs prime mission, which was to impress "real customers" (as opposed to our students ). So a hardware instructor (later a supervisor) started putting this thing together for us, that became "system-26". 26 from the processor serial number. I don't remember if the original purpose was to support software training or hardware training. But eventually it became a software machine, and we found that, for some courses, it did what we wanted better than the machine down the hall. I began managing it on an informal basis. Big mistake. Then I got sent on an 11-week assignment to teach assembler and monitor courses in South America (in Spanish!). when I got back, my greeting from a colleague who will remain nameless was: "Did you enjoy your vacation? How come system 26 is is still running the old software?" I almost decked him. I could easily be wrong about this next one, but I think that system 26 got left behind in Marlboro when we made the move to Bedford. I may have suppressed that phase of my existence. Or it may have been moved, but put in the hardware lab instead of the software lab. I don't remember making a comment about a "Del-Lipperate Act", but it sounds like me, all right. They say the memory is the second thing to go. I've forgotten what the first one is. Regards, Dave Cressey Independent Consultant Article 2716 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!paperboy.ids.net!kronos.egr-ri.ids.net!MIKE From: mike@kronos.egr-ri.ids.net (Mike Umbricht) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.text,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: TJ-2, a very early word-processor-like program for the PDP-1 Date: 27 Mar 1997 00:15:30 GMT Organization: The Retro-Computing Society of RI Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5hce72$226@paperboy.ids.net> References: <5d5q64$o22@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <3338DEBA.621E@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Reply-To: mike@kronos.egr-ri.ids.net NNTP-Posting-Host: kronos.egr-ri.ids.net Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:82751 comp.text:3088 alt.sys.pdp8:1687 alt.sys.pdp10:2716 alt.sys.pdp11:2293 In article <3338DEBA.621E@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, "Henry W. Miller" writes: >Max ben-Aaron wrote: >> >> Lincoln Lab. (as I have heard), called American Science Institute. The >> chief engineer, Ed Rawson was a friend of Dec's Olsen and he managed to >> get hold of the modules used for the prototype PDP-2 which never >> reached the market. ASI used them to build their own machine Are you sure this was the PDP-2, and not the PDP-3? According to _Computer Engineering_ by Bell, et al p. 141 "The PDP-2 designation was saved for a possible 24-bit machine, but none was ever built. DEC also never built a PDP-3, although one was designed on paper as a 36-bit machine.*" "*In 1960 a customer (Scientific Engineering Institute, Waltham, Massachusetts) built a PDP-3. It was later dismantled and given to M.I.T.; as of 1974 it was up and running in Oregon." It sounds remarkably similar. > Is there any publically available documentation about the PDP-2? I've >heard a little about it over the years, but no real details. In any case, I would also be interested in knowing more about the 2, and the 3. Anyone know where the above mentioned "PDP-3" wound up? Or if there any existing design prints? -mike