Article 8457 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail From: bugs@netcom5.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news but... Date: 6 May 2000 02:52:00 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 64 Message-ID: <8f01cg$fom$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.69 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #120 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8457 Timothy Stark writes: >Does anyone have information about how to install TOPS-10 system from >scratch? That's why I need some information to format disk drive and >install TOPS-10 stuffs into it. I spent some time reading some of the limited docs I kept (treasures, not for sale) trying to jog some memories loose about how to do that. My experience is with KL10A and 6/7 pre 7.03 monitors. There was a diagnostic on the "KLAD" disk pack that we used to format the disks (rp04 rp06). A copy of the "KLAD" distribution would be a good thing to try and recover - it was a field service thing. Having made a formatted pack you could boot the initial monitor tape. I have dim memories of starting the monitor and selecting a particular option and entering the "once" dialog. That dialog was sort of a stand alone disk initializer that partially prepared (it was called "refresh") the disk. After booting the monitor you may have had to run a second user-level program called "twice" to do other file system things. I believe the "once dialog" was used to put the bootstrap on the disk, set up the swap file, the crash dump file, etc. One of the documents that I still have (tops-10 7.01 update document EY-CD139-SG-001) pulls a little more out of the old memory - the monitor reached a "STARTUP OPTION:" prompt and you can use /HELP there to see the "once" commands. /STANDALONE boots in standalone :-) You have to define a "SDL" or "system dump list" which is a series of disks that a crash dump will try to be written to. It doesn't sound like you are getting far enough to receive the "STARTUP OPTION:" prompt, so you are probably not dealing with a problem related to the initialization of "disk packs" yet. I bet you are getting caught by some device initialization code prior to the disks, although it is possible that the monitor is trying to see which disks are "spun up" prior to displaying "STARTUP OPTION:". After once/twice you'd boot and run mongen, turn on/off various feature test switches, assemble your monitor, put it out there and boot it! By the way I also have DEC-10/20 Processor Reference Manual AA-H391A-TK, a very old copy of "PDP-10 Reference Handbook order code AIW (1969!!), and for some bizarre reason I also kept the March 1982 CMCO software dispatch. I now realize I did not keep any documents for how to set up a system! There is a reference to "tops-10 monitor installation guide" with the SDC number of AA-5056B-TB in the 7.01 update document. Good luck to all emulator hackers, software distribution recoverers, and manual recoverers! Frankly we may need to build a monitor that meets the emulator half way. We can cut out vast chunks of code that support devices we would be insane to try and emulate (and are probably causing your emulator to wig out). Later Mark Hittinger (former KL1059 guy) Earthlink bugs@netcom.com Article 8461 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-112 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news but... Date: Sat, 06 May 00 07:42:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 77 Message-ID: <8f0s0q$epp$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8f01cg$fom$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Trace: 7j++sMmFQnn98AYhBg0bTZAPFXoCh0pqVf5u23j9Kbk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 May 2000 10:26:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8461 In article <8f01cg$fom$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, bugs@netcom5.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote: >Timothy Stark writes: >>Does anyone have information about how to install TOPS-10 system from >>scratch? That's why I need some information to format disk drive and >>install TOPS-10 stuffs into it. > >I spent some time reading some of the limited docs I kept (treasures, not >for sale) trying to jog some memories loose about how to do that. > >My experience is with KL10A and 6/7 pre 7.03 monitors. > >There was a diagnostic on the "KLAD" disk pack that we used to format >the disks (rp04 rp06). A copy of the "KLAD" distribution would be a good >thing to try and recover - it was a field service thing. No, no, no!!! Don't use the KLAD!!!! What he needs to do is find a MIGnnn.MEM. I have no idea how he would find one. Maybe Eric or Tim has one of them on their disks. What is really, really important is that he use a MIG (Monitor Installation Guide) that _matches_ AND I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH the monitor. Thus if your monitor is V7.03x, then you have to use the MIG703.MEM. I can't remember if I won the battle of putting this file on the Monitor Distribution Tape. >It doesn't sound like you are getting far enough to receive the >"STARTUP OPTION:" prompt, so you are probably not dealing with a problem >related to the initialization of "disk packs" yet. I bet you are getting >caught by some device initialization code prior to the disks, although >it is possible that the monitor is trying to see which disks are "spun up" >prior to displaying "STARTUP OPTION:". Well, it looked very strange that he typed in /TM03 but received the "source" message that the monitor was loaded from DSKB:SYSTEM.EXE[1,4]. That's not right. > >After once/twice you'd boot and run mongen, turn on/off >various feature test >switches, assemble your monitor, put it out there and boot it! Yes, but he can't do this yet. That why he was asking for a cross-assembler. > >By the way I also have DEC-10/20 Processor Reference Manual AA-H391A-TK, >a very old copy of "PDP-10 Reference Handbook order code AIW (1969!!), >and for some bizarre reason I also kept the March 1982 CMCO software >dispatch. I now realize I did not keep any documents for how to set up a >system! > >There is a reference to "tops-10 monitor installation guide" with the >SDC number of AA-5056B-TB in the 7.01 update document. It should be a file called MIGnnn.MEM. > >Good luck to all emulator hackers, software distribution recoverers, and >manual recoverers! > >Frankly we may need to build a monitor that meets the emulator >half way. We >can cut out vast chunks of code that support devices we would be insane to >try and emulate (and are probably causing your emulator to wig out). Well, we went through this discussion a couple of months ago. And I was soundly trashed by purists :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 8470 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <39148220.531B4E8D@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 20:35:44 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news but... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 957659745 15208 63.73.218.130 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8470 Timothy Stark wrote: > Ok, I am looking for MIG704.MEM file for TOPS-10 v7.04. I looked for it > through Tim's archives and can't find it. I don't think there is any such file there. Or anything matching MIG*.*, for that matter. I've looked through the filenames, and I've searched through the text for "Installation Guide" and haven't turned up anything promising. The closest we come are some of the *.BWR (Beware) files, which did contain some updates to the printed Installation Guide notes. The 7.04 Beware file, at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/TOPS10_704_MONITORANF_BB-X140C-SB/704.BWR simply refers you to: 3.0 INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS For normal installation, refer to the TOPS-10 Software Installation Guide. Without a printed copy of the Installation Guide, we pretty much have to stick to people's memories and the sources for guidance, it seems! Tim. Article 8478 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-251 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news but... Date: Sun, 07 May 00 08:55:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8f3klo$5gt$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39148220.531B4E8D@trailing-edge.com> X-Trace: HlP9k2o/Ucr5i9yFGgwNMXtjBl+pTFU/+RsEPwQKkF4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 May 2000 11:39:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8478 In article , Timothy Stark wrote: >Tim Shoppa wrote: >> The 7.04 Beware file, at > >> http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/TOPS10_704_MONITORANF_BB-X140C-SB/70 4.BWR > >> simply refers you to: > >> 3.0 INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS > >> For normal installation, refer to the TOPS-10 Software Installation >> Guide. > >Yeah. I looked into that and noticed it. :-( I learned that in this >file. It said that it requires BOOT V4 to load TOPS-10 7.04 properly. >Ah! I already had experience with it when I attempted to load a monitor by >using old BOOTM that does not use bootstrap information. Yea, there was a dependence. When you take your break, you might want to take a look at the MCO file that should have been shipped on the Monitor tape. It contains all of the publishable changes to the monitor and we wrote an MCO for just about each and every change. MCO stands for Monitor Change Order. The filename should be something like 704.MCO or some combination of the letters MCO and the version number of the release. In that file, should be a description of why the change caused these versions of BOOT and the monitor to be tied together. A perusal of the edit history of the file BOOT.MAC should also give you a clue. Tony Dzedzic would have done most of those changes, although it might be under DPM's name. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 8477 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-251 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news but... Date: Sun, 07 May 00 08:45:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 70 Message-ID: <8f3k36$5gt$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8f2cvi$5ct$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Trace: nd8bbJgPyl+R4iiqqF7gneoNFpPcLTcydVL1W8wwQjI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 May 2000 11:29:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8477 In article <8f2cvi$5ct$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, bugs@netcom5.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) wrote: >Timothy Stark writes: >>Ok, I am looking for MIG704.MEM file for TOPS-10 v7.04. I looked for it >>through Tim's archives and can't find it. > >Maybe look for mig704.rnm or .rno :-) I was not allowed to ship sources, so this is not good advice. If there's way to do wildcarding, look for MIG70?.???. I don't remember review a MIG704, nor do I remember arrangements for having a Token Dummy do an installation. Although all of shit went on with that 7.04 release. > >I don't remember there being one of these for each release. Sigh! There had to be if the installation procedures were changed. > I do remember >a "beware" file being attached to each release, look for *.bwr. What we >generally had was a document for a major release and the minor releases >that came afterwards generally had differences mentioned in the beware >file. No, no, no. A beware file would not have mentioned anything about installation procedures. I guarantee you that since I was the one who farted around with them all. However, it's a good point about pointing him at the beware files...and I mean _every_ beware file. For the CUSP tape, I combined all of the beware files into one, CUSP.BWR, when I redesigned the tape format into SFDs. >(i.e. you might find a mig700.mem in the 7.0 distribution and then >any changes from that would be in a ???704.bwr file on the 7.04 tape) No, NO, NOOO. The mig700 would have no bearing on a V7.04 installation. Things changed drastically between the ships of V7.00 and V7.04. Think DECnet, HSCs, RP07s, TU78s, etc. >You are certainly getting ready to step into the hostile >territory where your >brain will begin to hurt. Yup. I was going to tell him to take a break for a day or two to rest it :-). >Having access to an actually working KL-10 or >KS-10 would be quite helpfull to you at this point because you can code >small examples and try them out on a "reference implementation". > >These instructions (especially edit) have a lot of very weird boundary >condition behavior that I'm not sure anyone understands. Well, we won't even tell him that all the processors gave different results when zero was divided by zero. Jim "discovered" this based on an SPR. The SPR only talked about one processor but Jim got curious about the other processor. He got different results (but I don't remember what they were :-((( ) for a KA, KI, and KL. The KS didn't exist at the time. He chuckled for a week. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.