Article 2990 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!uucp3.uu.net!world!mbg From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: KA10 questions Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:38:14 GMT Lines: 34 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2990 At what point during the instruction execution cycle does the processor check for a halt condition? After executing the current instruction? Before? Do checks for traps and interrupts occur prior to fetch of the next instruction or after? Which occurs first, traps or interrupts? If an instruction references a location which does not exist (for example beyond end of physical memory), a NXM fault is generated. Does this also occur in user mode? (Or was the monitor expected to know what was available and just not hand out anything which didn't exist?) Thanks in advance... more questions possibly to follow. Remember, these questions relate to the KA10 (I'll have some for the KI10 and KL10 at a later time, maybe). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer p.s. Max address for the KA was 2^18-1, for the KI 2^22-1, what about the KL? +--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry | tcp/ip (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support and Engineering Group | or: gentry@rusure.enet.dec.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | (non-work): mbg@world.std.com | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "Still real-time after all these | | (603) 881 1055 | years." | +--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ Article 2993 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KA10 questions Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:51:15 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 59 Message-ID: <33CC3723.4993ED37@stoneweb.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2993 Megan, in article nr. wrote: > > At what point during the instruction execution cycle does the > processor check for a halt condition? After executing the > current instruction? Before? I'm assuming you're either inquiring about the HALT instruction or a front-panel key-press. For a key-press, I believe that the halt occurs between the end of the exec cycle and the next fetch cycle. For the HALT, it should occur during the exec cycle. > Do checks for traps and interrupts occur prior to fetch of > the next instruction or after? Which occurs first, traps or > interrupts? If I remember correctly (and I'm doing this without reference to the books), the -10 line is interruptable at the end of the effective address computation and at the end of the execution cycle. Long instructions (BLTs and the like) are interruptable during execution (they save state properly). Traps, as in the pdp11, don't exist on the -10. The -10 uses UUOs (esentially illegal/unassigned opcodes) for that function. They, I believe, get caught in the fetch cycle just following the effective address computation. > If an instruction references a location which does not exist > (for example beyond end of physical memory), a NXM fault is > generated. Does this also occur in user mode? Yes. NXMs are absolute and are generated by the memory control logic. The current mode doesn't mean anything. Keep in mind that in later -10s (like the KI), the entire user space was supposed to be mapped out by the monitor, and be valid, but hardware errors could still occur. > Thanks in advance... more questions possibly to follow. Remember, > these questions relate to the KA10 (I'll have some for the KI10 > and KL10 at a later time, maybe). > p.s. Max address for the KA was 2^18-1, for the KI 2^22-1, what about > the KL? For any of the -10 architectures the virtual address space is 18 bits wide. The KI, KL, and I believe KS implementations have physical memory addresses 22 bits wide. What happened Megan? A miraculous conversion? -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| Article 2992 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!hunter.premier.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!ix.netcom.com!netcom10!alderson From: alderson@netcom10.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Why Mainframes? In-Reply-To: csess@blaze.trentu.ca's message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:47:05 GMT Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom10.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <01bc8523$84da9b80$e12185c2@rashid1> <33C8D181.7125F907@stoneweb.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:35:12 GMT Lines: 36 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:89486 alt.sys.pdp10:2992 In article csess@blaze.trentu.ca (Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal) writes: >In article , >Bill Marcum wrote: >>In message , csess@blaze.trentu.ca >>(Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal) wrote: >>>if the 11 is substantially similar to the 10. >>It isn't unless you consider 16 bits to be substantially similar to 36. >What's a power of two (and change) among friends? >Is that an actual difference between them, or just an expression of how >different they are? People seem to be more excited about buses and I/O rather >than bits, and I kind of assumed that both things having "PDP" in their name >might (might!) have indicated some gross architectural similarities. Let's see: The instruction set, the memory architecture, the I/O architecture, the available peripherals (mostly), the marketing... The only thing similar between the -11 and the -10 is, in fact, the appellation "PDP" (which was DEC marketingese for "computer" early in the company's history and stood for "Programmed Data Processor," to get around GAO regs). The same is true of the other two families, the (18-bit) PDP-1/4/7/9/15 and the (12-bit) PDP-5/8/12: Only the names are similar to the 16- and 36-bit processors. Someone else was unsure about families other than the PDP-6/10; I think that should serve as a reminder to them... -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ Article 4821 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 26 Apr 1999 01:06:39 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7g16qf$s4l$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Lines: 108 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 925114003 231 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:128842 alt.sys.pdp10:4821 In article , Bill Vermillion wrote: >In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, >Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: > >>The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape >>and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero >>characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. ... > >Do you mean all 1's - that's the way you erased an error in a >tape - punch the holes all the way across. No, BINARY mode skipped all zeros. 36-bits of data were punched onto 6 frames of tape 6 bits at at time with the high-order (8th) bit set. Unpunched tape was ignored when reading in BINARY mode. In ASCII mode, all ones (377 octal, 255 decimal, 0xFF hex) indicated a manual correction. It was created by pressing the backspace button on the paper-tape attachment on the ASR-33 Teletype and then pressing the RUBOUT key. That was done only for paper tapes created off-line, when the Teletype's keyboard was connected directly to the paper tape punch. --------------------- 5.6 PAPER-TAPE PUNCH The device mnemonic is PTP; the buffer size is 43(octal) words (40(octal) data words). 5.6.1 Data Modes 5.6.1.1 ASCII, Octal Code 0 - The eighth hole is punched when necessary in order to make even parity. Tape-feed without the eighth hole (000) is inserted after form-feed. A rubout is inserted after each vertical or horizontal tab. Null characters (000) in appearing in the buffer are not punched. 5.6.1.2 ASCII Line, Octal Code 1 - The mode is same as ASCII mode. Format control must be performed by the users's program. 5.6.1.3 Image, Octal Code 10 - Eight-bit characters are punched exactly as they appear in the buffer with no additional processing. 5.6.1.4 Image Binary, Octal Code 13 - Binary words taaken from the outputt buffer are split into six 6-bit bytes and punched with the eighth hole punched in each line. Thre is not format control or checksumming performed by the I/O routine. Data punched in this mode is read back by the paper-tape reader in IB mode. 5.6.1.5 Binary, Octal Code 14 - Each bufferful of data is punched as one checksummed binary block as described for the paper-tape reader. Several blank lines are punched after each bufferful for visual clarity. 5.7 PAPER-TAPE READER The devise mnemonic is PTR; the buffer size is 43(octal) (40(octal) data) words. 5.7.1 Data Modes (Input Only) NOTE To initialize the paper-tape reader, the input tape must be threaded through the reading mechanism and the FEED button must be depressed. 5.7.1.1 ASCII, Octal COde 0, Blank tape (000), RUBOUT (377), and null characters (200) are ignored. All other characters are truncated to seven bits are appear in the buffer. The physical end of the paper tape serves as an EOF, but does not caus a character to appear in the buffer. 5.7.1.2 ASCII Line, Octal Code 1 - Character processin is the same as for ASCII mode. The buffer is terminated by LINE FEED, FORM FEED, or VT. 5.7.1.3 Image, Octal COde 10 - There is no character processing. The buffer is packed with 8-bit characters exactly as read from the input tape. Physical end of tape is the EOF indication but does not cause a character to appear in the buffer. 5.7.1.4 Image Binary, Octal Code 13 - Characcters not having the eighth hole punched are ignored. Characters are truncated to six bits and packed six to the word without further processing. This mode is useful for reading binary tapes having arbitrary blocking format. 5.7.1.5 Binary, Octal Code 16 - Checksummed binary data is read in the following format. The right half of the first word of each physical block contains the number of data words that follow and the left half contains a folded checksum. The checksum is formed by adding the data words using 2's complement arithemetic, then splitting the 36-bit sum into three 12-bit bytes and adding these using 1's complement arithemetic to form a 12-bit checksum. [This is the same algorithm used for reading 78 columns of 12-bit data from the card reader.] The data error flag is raised if the checksum miscompares. Because the checksum and word count appear in the input buffer, the maximum block length is 40. The byte pointer, however, is initialized so as to not pick up the word count and checksum word. Again, physical end of tape is the EOF indication, but does not result in putting a character in the buffer. [Pages 5-18 through 5-20 of the DECsystem-10 Monitor Calls Manual, DEC-10-MRRC-D (5.05 release of the monitor, June 1972).] -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 4882 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news From: "Chris Ward" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:27:58 -0400 Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7g9jfq$fdb@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <371F47A6.B8D17E18@stoneweb.com> <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7g1pd2$nt8$1@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-8.ts-1-bay.hob.idt.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:129108 alt.sys.pdp10:4882 I do not remember you, but I was not there in the early days of when it was as Stevens. I was there from 75-79. Chris Larry S. Samberg wrote in message <7g1pd2$nt8$1@ligarius.ultra.net>... >---------- >In article <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" > wrote: > > >> The KA which Chris used (#101) once had an intermittent in the FM ENB switch, >> causing the hardware ACs to be randomly switched in and out as the margin >> check/maintenance panel vibrated (or was tapped by the field servant). > > >Amazing! I was one of the first users of KA #101. Did I know Chris? Article 5468 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.mv.net!not-for-mail From: Dan Murphy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: KA-10 Pix Date: 17 Jul 1999 19:20:58 -0400 Organization: MV Communications, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: opost.com X-Trace: pyrite.mv.net 932253658 20018 207.22.41.2 (17 Jul 1999 23:20:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mv.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1999 23:20:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5468 I've pulled out some old b&w pix of the KA-10, including the BBN Pager and other misc. You can find them on http://www.opost.com/dlm/tenex/kapix.html These are circa 1970 -- back when men were men and computers weighted tons. dlm Article 1506 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20001009080048.03182.00000061@ng-ch1.aol.com> <6u3di4h15i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 11 Oct 2000 13:46:21 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 11 Oct 2000 13:50:34 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1506 Neil Franklin writes: > Them 512 instructions don't come lightly. It did take multiple racks > for the original, with the same manufacturing technology that put an > PDP8 into part of a rack. Admittedly lots of that space was core. The KA10 CPU logic occupied two bays, NOT including the core. However, it was built from R- and B- series logic modules; most modules of this series are only a few gates or flip-flops, roughly equivalent to 74xx SSI parts. There were a few fancier modules designed specifically for the KA10, such as the six-bit datapath slice. If the KA10 had been implemented using SSI and MSI TTL parts on hex-sided modules (like the PDP-11/45, for instance), the CPU probably would have occupied about a dozen modules. Of course, the KA10 was released in 1968 and the PDP-11/45 in 1972. Article 2989 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Monitor V4 sources. From: Paul Repacholi Date: 01 Jan 2001 12:07:55 +0800 Message-ID: <87wvcf29us.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 48 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 196.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 1 Jan 2001 11:25:01 +0800, 196.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!feed-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2989 All the file we currently have of the V4 monitor have just been mailed to TIm. Expect to hear RSN ;) A word about the machine they ran on. It was the first sold. Serial number #4, memory box SN #1. It had the harp. It was ordered without FM, but had it anyway. I think there was some 'discussion' post order, and it was added to the order. CPU, 48KW memory, PTR, PTP(? rollie), CDR, LPT, DIS, MTAx4, 32 lines plus CTY and TTY1, both KSR35s. Oh, and 8 DECtapes. There was also LP1, a Mohawk I think. There was a PDP-6 channel for the 2 CDC disks, and a DC-10 for the tapes. The tapes where a latter addition. TM10B with 4 TU-10s I think. Can't find my manual... Plus there was a real-time interface setup for the IR Spectrometer, and other stuff. Now the DISKS and LP1 ( why LP1 you are wondering... ) hung off a PDP-8. The 8 was the controler fot the disks, and the 6 was its 'FPU'... I think this would have to be one of the first for both these ideas. OK, the FPU is just a divide, but still! Special interface between the two, and from 8 to disks. The man who did the code for the 8 is still at UWA. When they come back from hols, I'll see if he will post anything he has, or send it to Tim. In 72 it was retired, replaced by a CDC Cyber 72. After about 3 months of quiet riot, a KA-10 was ordered. I think that was not a complete shock, as the tape and memory went onto the 10. That stayed till 80, when a KL-10E took over. That machine is in the next room. And I have the 8 under wraps as well! In fact, when I first joined ( belatedly ) DECUS, it was the machine I put on my membership form. It is a 'real' 8, none of this noncy suffix stuff ;) If anyone has any other old stuff, PLEASE get it out and into the archive. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. Article 2995 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Monitor V4 sources. Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:18:36 GMT Message-ID: <3a51005d.2886473@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <87wvcf29us.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.73 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978387310 30426 emut7d@203.59.69.73 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2995 Paul, You forgot to mention the PDP-8 disk drive controller and the remote peripherral computer interface. There was no PTP ever. You also forgot the Precision display which now resided in the ACMS-WA barn in Mundaring. The console was an ASR-33 (I almost lived on it Sunday Times photo to prove it). IGN has a bad memory for things he built on to it and mine is not much better. PO Dufty might remember, but much has passed under the bridge in his life. On 01 Jan 2001 12:07:55 +0800, Paul Repacholi wrote: > >All the file we currently have of the V4 monitor have just >been mailed to TIm. Expect to hear RSN ;) > > >A word about the machine they ran on. > >It was the first sold. Serial number #4, memory box SN #1. >It had the harp. It was ordered without FM, but had it anyway. >I think there was some 'discussion' post order, and it was added >to the order. >CPU, 48KW memory, PTR, PTP(? rollie), CDR, LPT, DIS, MTAx4, 32 lines >plus CTY and TTY1, both KSR35s. Oh, and 8 DECtapes. >There was also LP1, a Mohawk I think. >There was a PDP-6 channel for the 2 CDC disks, and a DC-10 >for the tapes. The tapes where a latter addition. TM10B with >4 TU-10s I think. Can't find my manual... Plus there was a >real-time interface setup for the IR Spectrometer, and other >stuff. > >Now the DISKS and LP1 ( why LP1 you are wondering... ) hung >off a PDP-8. The 8 was the controler fot the disks, and the 6 >was its 'FPU'... I think this would have to be one of the first >for both these ideas. OK, the FPU is just a divide, but still! >Special interface between the two, and from 8 to disks. > >The man who did the code for the 8 is still at UWA. When they >come back from hols, I'll see if he will post anything he has, >or send it to Tim. > >In 72 it was retired, replaced by a CDC Cyber 72. After about >3 months of quiet riot, a KA-10 was ordered. I think that was >not a complete shock, as the tape and memory went onto the 10. > >That stayed till 80, when a KL-10E took over. That machine >is in the next room. And I have the 8 under wraps as well! >In fact, when I first joined ( belatedly ) DECUS, it was the >machine I put on my membership form. It is a 'real' 8, none >of this noncy suffix stuff ;) > >If anyone has any other old stuff, PLEASE get it out and >into the archive. > >-- >Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., >+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. > West Australia 6076 >Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. --Rolie Baldock. email: Article 4741 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3AF46A42.D9486509@mail.bcpl.net> From: Ken McMonigal X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:01:54 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.19.142.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 989096512 207.19.142.90 (Sat, 05 May 2001 17:01:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:01:52 EDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4741 Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > > Patrick Scheible writes: > > > Some of the info you want is in > > > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt > > > > and about Tymshare's hardware in > > > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/ > > > > Hope this helps, > > I checked the links but there is just one thing about > memor (cache), but thanks anyway. So I have to ask again and maybe a > bit more specific. > > What were the memory and hardisk configurations options for a PDP-10 > at the beginnnng (1967-1970). How many users were to be served with > it? > > Regards > Friedrich Perhaps I can supply one data point (one machine) & you can gather others to determine ranges to get info you want. from the January 1973 report by Paul Jalics at CWRU: (summarizing here) The CASE-10 was used as a research tool & for system development & did not carry course-related or non-departmental loads. Configuration: KA processor 128K word core memory (MA-10 & MD-10) storage devices - DF-10 memory channel (to RC-10 & RP-10) RC-10 controller to RD-10 fixed head disk RP-10 disk pack controller (8 diskpacks) TD-10 Dectape controller (8 Dectape units) terminals - DA-10 interface/ PDP-8 / 2 ASR-33 / 8 VT02 displays DC-10 dataline scanner / 2 Datapoint 2200 / Datapoint 3300 /2 Imlacs (3 modems off DC-10) Evans & Sutherland LDS I display processor (3 displays) BA-10 printer controller / printer Notes: 1) As this info was taken from his thesis for the analysis of the PDP-10 TOPS-10 (10/50), it apparently pre-dated the addition of the BBN pager memory box, TENEX operating system, & IMP for ARPANET connection. 2) CASE-10 appeared with MIT-10, CMU-10, Harvard-10, Stanford-10, (U of) UTAH-10, (SRI-10, & BBN-10) on the ARPANET by April, 1971. So you might contact those universities for additional information. Article 4739 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3AF444EB.9E7EBE2@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:22:35 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 989101356 10501 63.73.218.130 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4739 Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > [typical memory and harddisk configuration] > of PDP-10? > > Can somesone point me to the right information? If you want to know what the minimum required configuration was to run a later version of TOPS-10 or TOPS-20, the place to look is in the DEC SPD's or the actual monitor installation guides. For early PDP-10 configurations, I think the best place to look for what a "typical" machine would be equipped with is the DECUS PDP-10 library entries. For starters, look at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/ and examine the "Requirements" section of the abstracts. You'll find that many early (as in late-60's or early-70's) programs needed a dozen or two kwords of core and DECTape drives, and that hard drive storage wasn't a necessity. Tim. Article 4729 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3AF3CC52.C4AE06AD@inwap.com> From: Joe Smith Organization: Chez Inwap X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Source code for 7.03 References: <3aae972c.2320196@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3AAE937E.52DF57E6@trailing-edge.com> <98nn00$hkh$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 10:05:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.107.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com 989057121 24.1.107.64 (Sat, 05 May 2001 03:05:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 03:05:21 PDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4729 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3AAE937E.52DF57E6@trailing-edge.com>, > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >Rolie Baldock wrote: > >> And what about the SOUP files are they available in source form? > > > >Are you referring to SOUPR? From SOUPR.MAN: > > Nope. He's talking about a SOUP (note the R) that generated > messes that not even JMF or TW could solve. They decided that > doing full blown maintenance releases were much easier on the > blood pressure. Ugh. A typical use of SOUP was to put the DECtape with original files on DTA0:, mount a scratch tape on DTA1:, and place the SOUP tape into the paper tape reader. "R SOUP" and go out for coffee. Not fun. OK for version 4S76 of the Monitor, back when disks and drums were optional. When did DEC stop sending out SOUP patches on paper tape? -Joe -- js-cgi@inwap.com See http://www.inwap.com/ for details Article 4733 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-249 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Source code for 7.03 Date: Sat, 05 May 01 09:40:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <9d0qhi$573$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3aae972c.2320196@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3AAE937E.52DF57E6@trailing-edge.com> <98nn00$hkh$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3AF3CC52.C4AE06AD@inwap.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa2SBChVbSdonZHNBKzdx/Fj6grIi9Tlu8g7s6I8bfL4zBZkhF5p64D X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2001 12:09:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4733 In article <3AF3CC52.C4AE06AD@inwap.com>, Joe Smith wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3AAE937E.52DF57E6@trailing-edge.com>, >> Tim Shoppa wrote: >> >Rolie Baldock wrote: >> >> And what about the SOUP files are they available in source form? >> > >> >Are you referring to SOUPR? From SOUPR.MAN: >> >> Nope. He's talking about a SOUP (note the R) that generated >> messes that not even JMF or TW could solve. They decided that >> doing full blown maintenance releases were much easier on the >> blood pressure. > >Ugh. > >A typical use of SOUP was to put the DECtape with original files on DTA0:, >mount >a scratch tape on DTA1:, and place the SOUP tape into the paper tape reader. >"R SOUP" and go out for coffee. Not fun. The times I remember it being used in-house was in the early 70s when the hardware was getting produced faster than the software. One the hugest headaches was ensuring that three guys doing three different projects started from the same base. It ended up being easier to mark the SOUP listings (I think...John Everett or Bob Clements would know since they lived it) and letting us (Tape Prep) than trying to SOUP. > >OK for version 4S76 of the Monitor, back when disks and drums were optional. > >When did DEC stop sending out SOUP patches on paper tape? I never saw patches on paper tapes. I don't remember duplicating that flavor of paper tape in Tape Prep. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 4742 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:18:21 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 56 Message-ID: <9d38dd$15eb$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> <3AF46A42.D9486509@mail.bcpl.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 989144301 38347 206.184.139.134 (6 May 2001 10:18:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:18:21 +0000 (UTC) Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4742 In article <3AF46A42.D9486509@mail.bcpl.net>, Ken McMonigal wrote: >Friedrich Dominicus wrote: >> >> What were the memory and hardisk configurations options for a PDP-10 >> at the beginnnng (1967-1970). How many users were to be served with >> it? >> >> Regards >> Friedrich > >Perhaps I can supply one data point (one machine) & you can gather others >to determine ranges to get info you want. The KA at the Colorado School of Mines was similar to what Ken reported. This is from memory. >Configuration: > >KA processor >128K word core memory (MA-10 & MD-10) CSM had 192 K words of core (128 + 64). The TOPS-10 Monitor took up about 92 K, leaving 100 K for user jobs. Except for when accounting ran at night, CORMAX was 40 K (enough for 2 big jobs and some smaller ones in core at the same time). >storage devices - > >DF-10 memory channel (to RC-10 & RP-10) >RC-10 controller to RD-10 fixed head disk CSM did not have an RD; we had swap space on DSKA. >RP-10 disk pack controller (8 diskpacks) If I remember correctly, DSKA was a single RP02 and DSKB was two RP03s. >TD-10 Dectape controller (8 Dectape units) We had two: DTA0-DTA7 and DTB0-DTB7 >terminals - > >DA-10 interface/ PDP-8 >DC-10 dataline scanner We had a 680I emulating a DC68 for current-loop ASR33 teletypes >BA-10 printer controller / printer Our BA-10 also had a card reader, a card punch, and a Calcomp 3-pen plotter. Tape controller and tape drives (TU10 and TU20?, 7-track and 9-track). -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. Article 4768 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au> From: Wilber Williams Organization: The University of Queensland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 72 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:18:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.45.132.11 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 989497119 203.45.132.11 (Thu, 10 May 2001 22:18:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:18:39 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4768 Ah yes... Another trip down memory lane. :-) Our KA's (a 10/55 dual processor system) originally arrived in 1968 with CPU's number 16 and 17. We had three MA-10 memories of 16Kwords each. Later we added three Ampex memories of 64Kwords each. The original configuration included two Burroughs RC10 (I think) fixed head disks, of total capacity about 2MB each, primarily as swapping disks. These took about five minutes to spin up to speed. Four RP02's (in colour coded units, so that the operators could say, "the red disk is busted") were later augmented by about a half-dozen RP03s. The CPUs had integrated paper tape readers and about two DECtape drives each. There were two 7-track tapes, and later two Ampex 9-tracks. A PDP-8 based DC68 Communications Subsystem provided terminal I/O to about 60 terminals, mostly 20mA current loop devices, running at 110 baud. I think our two manually-answered modems connected into this. Also a couple of CALCOMP plotters - a 565 and a big one. Our engineers did a lot of "customisation" and produced new circuitry to make all this work. To finish it off, we had a Card reader and line printer. In the fullness of time we added PDP-11s as "remote stations" to allow card entry and printout from the far corners of our campus and another nearby university. I still have the paper tape loaders for 48K and 64K versions of TOPS-10. I also have most of the maintenance manuals for the '8 and many for the KA. Wilber Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > > Patrick Scheible writes: > > > Some of the info you want is in > > > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt > > > > and about Tymshare's hardware in > > > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/ > > > > Hope this helps, > > I checked the links but there is just one thing about > memor (cache), but thanks anyway. So I have to ask again and maybe a > bit more specific. > > What were the memory and hardisk configurations options for a PDP-10 > at the beginnnng (1967-1970). How many users were to be served with > it? > > Regards > Friedrich -- Wilber Associate Director, Networks And Design Services +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@its.uq.edu.au | | Telephone : +61 7 3365 4232 | |ITS The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 3365 7539 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA Mobile : +61 412 210 063 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 4779 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-222 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration Date: Fri, 11 May 01 08:09:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <9dgfgc$i5b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au> <9de2mi$k7b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9deeqs$2l1l$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ0sUbuBeOx34MqfZPIQA0h5n9a+6ZfgxxMzOcY3rUYTtf/CNckp7ku X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 May 2001 10:39:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4779 In article <9deeqs$2l1l$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote: >In article <9de2mi$k7b$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>In article <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au>, >> Wilber Williams wrote: >>>Ah yes... Another trip down memory lane. :-) >>> >>>Our KA's (a 10/55 dual processor system) originally arrived in 1968 with >>>CPU's number 16 and 17. >> >> >>Couldn't have been a dual processor system. I was the one >>who put my group on the in-house system for load test >>and that was 1972. > >So you're saying that prior to 1972 the 1055 did not exist? I'm saying it didn't get shipped as a product. There may have been some sites that were running as a prelim field test (I'm not sure since I was in Tape Prep and I didn't have access to how the monitor group did its field testing at that time.) He certainly could have had two processors bought and had software done to run them as master/slave eventually ...those marketing people promised the universe in those days. However, in 1971 when I started working at DEC the monitor group was on 3-5 where we did the monitor edits. There was only one processor (System #2) there. Now I certainly could be all wet but I do remember that, when I got fired from Tape Prep, one of the things I had to do was remove the group from the test dual system because my replacement was incapable of doing any kind of field testing. One of the hardest things I had to do was to go to TW and apologize for dropping out of the load test. > >Maybe it was two independent KA systems that were later combined >into a dual processor (master/slave) configuration. I could certainly be wrong but the withdrawal out of load test was an embarrassment for me. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 4837 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail From: Wilber Williams Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:46:44 +1000 Organization: The University of Queensland Lines: 60 Message-ID: <3B00B4B4.7F9C7BEA@its.uq.edu.au> References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au> <9de2mi$k7b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3AFB28C5.FBCAB8B8@its.uq.edu.au> <9dgf32$i5b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chook.cc.uq.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 989902252 16170 130.102.128.100 (15 May 2001 04:50:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2001 04:50:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4837 OK, I've now had a chance to probe further into the history of our KA. When it arrived in 1968, there WERE two processors. One went into use, the other was left in its wrappings in the corner of the Computer Room until 1972. At that time, (with a new Director of the Computer Centre on board) it was discovered that all the transistor leads had corroded, and by tapping the boards you could make the transistors fall off! The second processor (unused until then) was used to get everything up and going again. The first processor was repaired, and I'm told that by the time that it was running again, the 5-series Monitor was available which allowed master/slave configurations. Is that story consistent with everyone's memories? I approached two of our old engineers, who swore that it was a single-processor machine. This had me really confused, since I wouldn't doubt their word, yet I have our 1975 "User's Guide" which says it was a dual-processor, and pictures of it as well!. And I DO have memories of starting the first processor, then going to the second and starting it at 400. The "new Director" of 1972 told me (just today) that the engineers kept the second processor a secret from him, and he only discovered it by accident! I'd like to thank you all for uncovering this piece of history! Wilber jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3AFB28C5.FBCAB8B8@its.uq.edu.au>, > Wilber Williams wrote: > >Can I have a chance to re-phrase that? It ran as a master/slave > >configuration, certainly not SMP. Sorry! > > > Nope. You can't rephrase that ;-). SMP didn't replace > master/slave until 1980 when we shipped 7.01 (SMP > is the reason that the major version number of the monitor > went from a 6nn to a 7nn). Might as well document the > rest... > > The version number went from a 4nn to a 5nn with the introduction > of the Level D disk system. (There may have been other aspects > to that release, too...John Everett could tell us more.) I was > only at a customer site when that happened. The version number > went from 5nn to 6nn when VM was done. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. -- Wilber Associate Director, Networks And Design Services +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@its.uq.edu.au | | Telephone : +61 7 3365 4232 | |ITS The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 3365 7539 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA Mobile : +61 412 210 063 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 4878 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail From: Wilber Williams Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:25:31 +1000 Organization: The University of Queensland Lines: 48 Message-ID: <3B0433BB.48E398F8@its.uq.edu.au> References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au> <9de2mi$k7b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3AFB28C5.FBCAB8B8@its.uq.edu.au> <9dgf32$i5b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B00B4B4.7F9C7BEA@its.uq.edu.au> <9dtl23$rm3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chook.cc.uq.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 990131421 27370 130.102.128.100 (17 May 2001 20:30:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2001 20:30:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4878 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3B00B4B4.7F9C7BEA@its.uq.edu.au>, > Wilber Williams wrote: > >OK, I've now had a chance to probe further into the history of our KA. > > > >When it arrived in 1968, there WERE two processors. One went into use, > >the other was left in its wrappings in the corner of the Computer Room > >until 1972. At that time, (with a new Director of the Computer Centre on > >board) it was discovered that all the transistor leads had corroded, and > >by tapping the boards you could make the transistors fall off! > > Good grief! Where was this system housed? In the plating room > of a foundry? No, it was in a purpose-built computer room in the basement of our building - the same one we use today. But at the time, they put offices for engineers/programmers/operators/training sessions within the computer room. So there was a lot of people-traffic through the place, bringing in dirt, etc. And we have a very high humidity climate here, which the A/Cs couldn't cope with because of the amount of time the doors were left open. I'm told that the combination of dust and humidity combined to attack the transistor leads. Alan Coulter (Director of 1972) said that he got all the engineers and techos to pull out all the boards, and scrub them down in the kitchen sink. They then replaced all the transistors on the boards. (I think that there are still lots of spare DEC transistors downstairs, if anybody needs some!) He then got the offices removed, and enforced strict policies on who could get into the computer room. And there weren't any more problems. I have MPEG'd a ten-minute movie made to publicise the opening of the Computer Centre in 1962, when our GE225 arrived. (That machine is still fairly intact, in storage, by the way.) If anyone is interested, I'll make it available. -- Wilber Associate Director, Networks And Design Services +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@its.uq.edu.au | | Telephone : +61 7 3365 4232 | |ITS The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 3365 7539 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA Mobile : +61 412 210 063 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 4895 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.voicenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail From: Wilber Williams Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:13:09 +1000 Organization: The University of Queensland Lines: 93 Message-ID: <3B074455.9C5180CF@its.uq.edu.au> References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au> <9de2mi$k7b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3AFB28C5.FBCAB8B8@its.uq.edu.au> <9dgf32$i5b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B00B4B4.7F9C7BEA@its.uq.edu.au> <9dtl23$rm3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B0433BB.48E398F8@its.uq.edu.au> <9e33j6$8c5$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chook.cc.uq.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 990332250 2175 130.102.128.100 (20 May 2001 04:17:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2001 04:17:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4895 Slowly, ever so slowly, the full story comes out in dribs and drabs... Here's an e-mail that I received yesterday from Alan Coulter, the Director of UQ Computer Centre from 1972-1995. "Dear Wilber, As you know the initial KA10 system was purchased in 1968 when the Computer Centre was a part of the Department of Electrical Engineering. When the newly established position of Director of the Computer Centre was advertised in May 1972, the advertisement stated that the current installation comprised a dual-processor PDP10 system with thirty-two remote terminals. I commenced at the Computer Centre in November 1972. I found that the system had not operated a dual processor system but there was a second processor stored under covers at the back of the computer room. Up until the addition of 64K of memory in Feb 1973 the system only had 48K of 36 bit memory, so that it would have been difficult to support around 30 terminals and two processors. Another major problem at that time was that I was informed that the system was heavily corroded and that this was the reason for high levels of downtime. There were two independent investigations in 1971 which found that high levels of dust and the possibility that the gold plating on some of the components was defective would have contributed to the corrosion. I think that an alleged earlier practice of switching off the computer and air conditioning system at weekends would not have helped. This was of major concern to me and indeed in a report to the Deputy Vice-Chancellor in February 1973 I wrote "I see no percentage at all in starting off this period with two leprous central processing units as the heart of our system". Any way after a programme over a number of months of scrubbing circuit boards in the Centre's tea room, drying them with hair dryers, repairing them we eventually achieved acceptable levels of up-time. A drama going on at the same time was that I wanted to change to a standard DEC 5-Series operating system wheras most of the staff of the Computer Centre wished to continue with the development of a UQ command system as part of the 4-Series operating system. I will not go into the details of this problem but it took a number of months to resolve. For all of these reasons it is safe to say that the KA did not operate as a dual processing system in 1973 but in the Feb 1974 issue of the Centre's General Information Manual it was shown as a planned development. I cant find any reports for 1974/75. Certainly by Feb 1976 the KA was operating as dual processor system with 240K words of memory and 11 disk drives (480M characters). Wilber I hope this provides some background for you. Best wishes Alan" So, there's another instalment of the story! jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > I assure you that every one of those KAs was checked out in > the mill. Pigeon droppings were the least of the worries. We also had/have problems with possums finding their way into the computer room and other areas. We once found a mouse cooked across a power supply in the KL. > > I'm trying to call you a liar or anything like that. ...and you probably meant to put the word "not" between "I'm" and "trying". Freudian slip? :-) -- Wilber Associate Director, Networks And Design Services +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@its.uq.edu.au | | Telephone : +61 7 3365 4232 | |ITS The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 3365 7539 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA Mobile : +61 412 210 063 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 4899 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-172 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: typical memory and harddisk configuration Date: Sun, 20 May 01 08:06:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <9e86p8$idg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87snilysfi.fsf@frown.here> <988998093.994714@dns2.serv.net> <87g0ekz4lb.fsf@frown.here> <3AFA8744.EDE39612@its.uq.edu.au> <9de2mi$k7b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3AFB28C5.FBCAB8B8@its.uq.edu.au> <9dgf32$i5b$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B00B4B4.7F9C7BEA@its.uq.edu.au> <9dtl23$rm3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B0433BB.48E398F8@its.uq.edu.au> <9e33j6$8c5$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B074455.9C5180CF@its.uq.edu.au> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZUgZtSj36gvB3xsU7IS3IsFpcvDe6VIwQPZnrvV803s/FJG4A9BKGe X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2001 10:37:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4899 In article <3B074455.9C5180CF@its.uq.edu.au>, Wilber Williams wrote: >Slowly, ever so slowly, the full story comes out in dribs and drabs... >So, there's another instalment of the story! What would we do without local politics. > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> I assure you that every one of those KAs was checked out in >> the mill. Pigeon droppings were the least of the worries. > >We also had/have problems with possums finding their way into the >computer room and other areas. We once found a mouse cooked across a >power supply in the KL. The women who worked in the Mill had rules about checking the toilets before sitting down on them. Spider bites in the nether regions was a common hazard. One did not walk down the corriders of the Mill with their mouth open unless extra protein was needed in the diet. I wonder what an OSHA-ite would say to that these days? > >> >> I'm trying to call you a liar or anything like that. > >....and you probably meant to put the word "not" between "I'm" and >"trying". Freudian slip? :-) > Aw, shit! No, not a Freudian slip. Just some kind of drastic interrupt system between brain and fingers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 5061 of alt.sys.pdp10: Message-ID: <3B201BAA.F3D151E3@Empire.Net> Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:26:18 -0400 From: John Sauter Organization: System Eyes Computer Store X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Write to Tape on TS10 References: <9fn0p7$oe9$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra140-233.empire.net X-Trace: News.Destek.net 991959981 hydra140-233.empire.net (7 Jun 2001 20:26:21 -0500) Lines: 9 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!News.Destek.net Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5061 Sometime around 1972, when I was supporting the KA10 at Sanders Associates, I rewrote the mag tape service routine. I sent it to DEC as an SPR, and I think that is what brought me to the attention of the monitor gurus. Looking at the posted excerpt, though, I do not recognize a single line. I conclude that the mag tape service routine was rewritten at least one more time in in TOPS-10's history. John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) Article 5476 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 12:06:52 -0700 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> <3A74A469.3345F5B2@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A74A674.6AD9A807@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3B3DE97D.590DBDAB@MA.UltraNet.Com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 993928016 42836 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: pat In-Reply-To: <3B3DE97D.590DBDAB@MA.UltraNet.Com> Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5476 On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Alan H. Martin wrote: > (Though I don't know whether or not a 1030 was ever built). Of course > if you want to say more there, feel free. I am pretty sure that a 1030 was built. There was a 1030 OS, and it was once listed in the DECUS library but was gone by the early 1970s. I've been trying to get my hands on a copy for the past 28 years. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 5473 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.voicenet.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:00:13 -0400 Lines: 115 Message-ID: <3B3DE97D.590DBDAB@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> <3A74A469.3345F5B2@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A74A674.6AD9A807@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZED9yu1w9VBB9flms3h4NtzjcYAnPNzLUOPfyPMEkuFtHSNyTgoofO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jun 2001 15:00:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5473 "Alan H. Martin" writes: > >Eric Smith wrote: >> >> I wrote: >> > There were order numbers in the super-secret Modules and Options List >> > for the "1020", which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10. However, that's >> > just an ordering number and AFAIK they were never called DECsystem-1020. >> >> "Alan H. Martin" writes: >> > Here's some corroboration. From http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt >> > 1010 KA10, 8Kwords, papertape, never built. >> > 1020 KA10, 8Kwords, DECtape, never built. >> > 1040 KA10, single user >> >> My point was only that there existed an order numer "1020" >> with various -xx suffixes which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10. >> It's in the Modules and Options List. This has nothing whatsoever >> to do with the name of the system, which was DECSYSTEM-2020. > >Sorry; I can imagine there were KS order numbers *containing* ``1020''. >I thought you meant there were order numbers *for* a putative KS-based >system, ``the 1020''. > > >(I'm still interested in knowing if there *was* a KA-based >DECsystem-1030, and what the configuration was). Found it earlier this month. The document refers to the PDP-10/10 through PDP-10/50, which is obviously an earlier nomenclature than DECsystem-1040, but with obvious correspondence. A 1030 was a 1020 with 16K instead of 8K, and ``additional I/O devices'' beyond the CTY and console PTR/PTP, and a pair of DECtapes. " The |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| Logic Handbook Flip Chip(TM) Modules 1967 Edition ... Part VI: Computer Catalog ... PDP-10 PDP-10 is an expandable, 36-bit computer system available in five configurations (PDP-10/10, 10/20, 10/30, 10/40, and 10/50) and offering optimum power and versatility in the medium price range. The PDP-10 includes an extremely powerful processor with 15 index registers, 16 accumulators, and 8,192 words of 36-bit core memory, a 300-character-per-second paper tape reader, a 50-character-per-second paper tape punch, a console teleprinter, and a two-level priority interrupt subsystem. PDP-10/20 adds two DECtapes, PDP-10/30 includes 16,384 words of memory and additional I/O devices. PDP-10/40 adds an extended order code and a memory protection and relocation feature. And PDP-10/50 permits swapping between 32,768 words of memory and fast access desk file via the multiplexer/selector channel, and includes multiprogramming time-sharing software. The PDP-10 is designed for on-line and real-time applications such as physics and bio-medical research, process control, as a departmental computation facility, in simulation and aerospace, chemical instrumentation, display processing and as a science teaching tool. The software package includes real-time FORTRAN IV, a control monitor, a macro assembler, a context editor, a symbolic debugging program, an I/O controller, a peripheral interchange program, a desk calculator and library programs. All software systems assure upward compatibility from the standard 8,192 words of memory through the multi-programming and swapping systems at both the symbolic and relocatable binary level. PDP-10 features a 1-microsecond cycle time, a 2.1-microsecond add time, I/O transfer rates up to 7,200,000 bits per second and a modular, proven software package that expands to make full use of all hardware configurations. Memory can be expanded in 8,192 word increments to the maximum directly addressable 262,144 words. [Facing page: B/W photo of a KA10 with bucket-style operator's chair] " Note: the word ``disk'' is misspelled as ``desk'' in ``swapping between 32,768 words of memory and fast access desk file via the multiplexer/ selector channel'' in the handbook itself. They were wise enough not to list any Computer Catalog entries in the 1-Apr-67 price list. A -10 wasn't exactly an off-the-shelf item. Joe, perhaps you would be so kind as to integrate the new facts from the above into http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt in your copious free time? Perhaps something like: " 1010 KA10, 8Kwords, papertape, never built. 1020 KA10, 8Kwords, DECtape, never built. 1040 KA10, single user 1050 KA10, multi user " => " 1010 KA10, 8Kwords, papertape, never built. 1020 KA10, 8Kwords, 2 DECtapes, never built. 1030 KA10, 16Kwords, 2 DECtapes, never built. 1040 KA10, single user 1050 KA10, multi user " (Though I don't know whether or not a 1030 was ever built). Of course if you want to say more there, feel free. /AHM/THX -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article: 16621 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? References: <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6tCn8.4749$T_.95368@iad-read.news.verio.net> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:54:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1017050050 130.94.177.175 (Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:54:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:54:10 GMT Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:16621 alt.sys.pdp8:5345 In article <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net>, John Sauter wrote: >Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > >And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was >a front-end. > >Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal >multiplexor on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do >with booting the KA10. The KA10 had a hard console >with lots of lights and switches, and booting was done >from its paper tape reader. > John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) The 8i was not a front-end. It was merely a device that could respond to RIM (Read-In Mode) which allowed the disk bootstrap program to be loaded from PDP-8 memory instead of from paper tape. Traditional boot: Set RIM device switches to the code for PTR. Put bootstrap tape into the paper tape reader. The first segment on the tape is the RIM10B loader. The second segment can be either a full-fledged BOOTS (a rather long paper tape with code that can accept a file name from the TTY and load the specified file from disk) or a short pre-boot that simply reads raw bootstrap blocks off of a reserved area of disk unit zero. Press the Read-In-Mode switch. Non-paper boot: Set RIM device switches to the code for PDP-8 interface. The disk pre-boot has already been put into the PDP-8's core memory. Press the Read-In-Mode switch. 1) Short read-the-boot-blocks routine gets sent to the KA with the PDP-8 acting like a virtual paper-tape reader. 2) Said routine locates logical disk 0, reads in the first part of the disk bootstrap, executes it (which reads in the rest of the full disk bootstrap code). This method simply saved wear-and-tear on the KA's paper tape reader. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. Article: 18063 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!dfw-peer!news.verio.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn.!not-for-mail From: Billy Joe Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 19:33:10 -0400 Organization: Very good. Message-ID: <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anyone.interested References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.570 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18063 Joe Smith seems to have said: >Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast >memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. The KA in our lab (known as the Doomsday Lab) did not have fast ACs. I specifically asked the Field Service guy who was working on it about that one day. Of course, your statement might still be correct, as the KA was serial number 1, and, technically, never sold. Article: 18110 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.zip.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 12 Oct 2002 00:50:29 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 30 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1034399592 11788 202.154.80.9 (12 Oct 2002 05:13:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 05:13:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p043.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18110 Billy Joe writes: > Joe Smith seems to have said: > >Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast > >memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. > The KA in our lab (known as the Doomsday Lab) did not have fast ACs. > I specifically asked the Field Service guy who was working on it > about that one day. > Of course, your statement might still be correct, as the KA was > serial number 1, and, technically, never sold. Ah.... I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or if it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run without FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... This was later expanded with a comment that DEC never sold a 36 bit CPU without FM. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. Article: 18115 of alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: <3DA8A932.60A30014@Empire.Net> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:58:58 -0400 From: John Sauter Organization: System Eyes Computer Store X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra141-30.empire.net X-Trace: news.destek.net 1034463541 198.144.141.30 (12 Oct 2002 18:59:01 -0400) Lines: 20 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.destek.net!not-for-mail Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18115 Paul Repacholi wrote: Ah.... I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or if it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run without FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... This was later expanded with a comment that DEC never sold a 36 bit CPU without FM. John Sauter responded: The fast memory on the PDP-6 was a separate bay, the 162. Simply leaving it out of the memory bus cabling should remove the fast memory from a PDP-6, so I believe that the PDP-6 could have been sold without fast memory. John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) Article: 18116 of alt.sys.pdp10 Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 12 Oct 2002 22:49:36 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 12 Oct 2002 23:11:09 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18116 Paul Repacholi writes: > I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was > fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or if > it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run without > FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... I can imagine reasons that they might have been reluctant to sell a machine without FM, since all the others they sold had it. However, I doubt that it was due to inexperience in running a system without FM. It was standard practice if the FM went bad to run the machine with the FM Enable switch turned off until FS repaired it. I was astounded to discover that the FM in the KA10 is implemented using integrated circuits! I'm pretty sure this was NOT the case for the PDP-6 FM. Article: 18121 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 14 Oct 2002 22:44:10 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 31 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87n0phkrlx.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1034606710 28879 202.154.80.9 (14 Oct 2002 14:45:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:45:10 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p218.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18121 Eric Smith writes: > Paul Repacholi writes: > > I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was > > fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or > > if it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run > > without FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... > I can imagine reasons that they might have been reluctant to sell a > machine without FM, since all the others they sold had it. However, > I doubt that it was due to inexperience in running a system without > FM. It was standard practice if the FM went bad to run the machine > with the FM Enable switch turned off until FS repaired it. > I was astounded to discover that the FM in the KA10 is implemented > using integrated circuits! I'm pretty sure this was NOT the case > for the PDP-6 FM. Once more with feeling, "Yeah, it's the F M alright!" `t was know as `The Harp' I'm told, as it had a set of conections soldered onto the non-socket side of the modules. So getting them out was the pits. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. Article: 108818 of alt.folklore.computers Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!prodigy.com!rip!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: asynchronous CPUs Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:31:44 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: <20030106211714.39332cfb.thvv@multicians.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.os.multics:2073 alt.folklore.computers:108818 In article , thvv@multicians.org says... > >I garbled a previous message a little. >I meant to say > >The GE645 [1966] and H6180 [1972] were quite different from >the other big machines I kenw about (and different from >today's PCs), because the CPU designs were asynchronous. >Signals were passed around with "strobes" saying when the >signal was ready. I had done a little CPU design myself >and was in awe of the elegance of building a machine with >no master clock, that just "ran as fast as possible." > >Recent articles that talk about how this new idea of >asynchronous design could make machines faster and more >efficient don't mention that the idea was used long ago. >Which CPUs of yore were asynchronous and which had master >clocks? The Digital Eqipment PDP10 KA has an asynchronous CPU. The later KI, KL, and KS models have synchronous CPUs.