Article 2707 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Good news! TOPS-20 v4.1 booted successfully
Date: 20 Dec 2000 01:27:46 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <91p1ui$qd7$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <fsCZ5.55241$%j3.692480@news6.giganews.com> <853dfrpl0z.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <91n7su$109j$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <mdd3dfk87cd.fsf@panix2.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977275666 27047 128.59.39.2 (20 Dec 2000 01:27:46 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2000 01:27:46 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2707

In article <mdd3dfk87cd.fsf@panix2.panix.com>,
Rich Alderson  <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote:
: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) writes:
: > What command do I give to a Linux FTP client to get a verbose directory
: > listing from TOPS20?  DIR, LIST and NLIST all return names only; no dates.
: 
: NONE of the above.
: 
: Verbose directory listings in the Tops-20 FTP server and client are
: implemented via the STAT command, as follows:
: 
: 1.  The client issues "STAT *.*"
: 2.  The server returns a list of all the files in the remote directory
: 3.  The client CDRs down the list, issuing "STAT <name>.<typ>.<gen>" for each
:     file on the list
: 4.  The server returns verbose data for the file in question
: 5.  The client formats the verbose data and outputs it to the user.
: 
: I don't know why it was done this way; it appears to be a holdover from TENEX
: on the ARPANET.
: 
: Perhaps someone should smarten up the Unix ftp clients...
: 
Done:

C-Kermit>ftp ? Hostname; or FTP command, one of the following:
 account     chmod       help        open        rename      system
 append      close       idle        options     reset       type
 bye         delete      mget        put         rmdir       umask
 cd          directory   mkdir       pwd         site        up
 cdup        features    modtime     quote       size        user
 check       get         mput        reget       status      vdirectory
C-Kermit>help ftp vdirectory

Syntax: FTP VDIRECTORY [ filespec ]
  Asks the server to send a directory listing of the files that match
  the given filespec, or if none is given, all the files in its current
  directory.  VDIRECTORY is needed for getting verbose directory
  listings from certain FTP servers, such as on TOPS-20.  Try it if
  FTP DIRECTORY lists only filenames without details.

C-Kermit>ftp cu20b.arpa  ; (not the real hostname)
 Name (cu20b.arpa:fdc):
331 User name ok. Password, please.
 Password:
230- User FDC, job 13, logged in at
230- Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:00:57 -0800 (PST).
230
Remote system type is TOPS20.
Default transfer mode is TEXT ("ASCII")
  C-Kermit>ftp dir
  CU20B:<FDC>
  CKERMIT.DIRECTORY.1
  CKERMIT2.TXT.1
  GNUEMACS.INIT.1
  KERMIT.DIRECTORY.1
  LOGIN.CMD.1
  226 Transfer completed.
C-Kermit>ftp vdir
  CU20B:<FDC>CKERMIT.DIRECTORY.1;P20200;A,0,15-Jan-1999 13:41:26-PST,
  15-Jan-1999 13:41:27-PST,14-Sep-1999 17:49:06-PDT,FDC,FDC
  CU20B:<FDC>CKERMIT2.TXT.1;P775200;A,166,15-Jan-1999 13:43:17-PST,15-Jan-1999
  13:43:17-PST,15-Jan-1999 14:35:06-PST,FDC,FDC
  CU20B:<FDC>GNUEMACS.INIT.1;P775200;A,8,25-Jan-1997 10:46:54-PST,25-Jan-1997
  10:46:54-PST,25-Jan-1997 10:49:34-PST,FDC,FDC
  CU20B:<FDC>KERMIT.DIRECTORY.1;P20200;A,0,25-Jan-1997 10:45:59-PST,25-Jan-1997
  10:45:59-PST,14-Sep-1999 17:49:07-PDT,FDC,FDC
  CU20B:<FDC>LOGIN.CMD.1;P775200;A,1,25-Jan-1997 10:43:05-PST,25-Jan-1997
  10:43:05-PST, 8-Sep-2000 16:15:37-PDT,FDC,FDC
C-Kermit>

Yes, C-Kermit now includes an FTP client:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ck71.html

The current test version (Alpha.01) pointed to by the URL above doesn't have
the FTP VDIRECTORY command in it, but by working copy does, and so Alpha.02
will have it.  I'll try to remember to post an announcement here.

C-Kermit is available for UNIX (all kinds), VMS, and several other OS
families.  The Windows version is called Kermit 95.  So far only the UNIX
and Windows versions are getting FTP clients.

(And no, it doesn't do TYPE TENEX -- does anybody care?)

- Frank

P.S. TOPS-20 users who try C-Kermit might notice a familiar look & feel.


Article 2800 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Good news! TOPS-20 v4.1 booted successfully
Date: 21 Dec 2000 20:07:51 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <91tnun$4rs$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <fsCZ5.55241$%j3.692480@news6.giganews.com> <3A424950.301C6AB5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <7xae9pty56.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3A42507C.AA5846B7@bartek.dontspamme.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977429271 4988 128.59.39.2 (21 Dec 2000 20:07:51 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2000 20:07:51 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2800

In article <3A42507C.AA5846B7@bartek.dontspamme.net>,
Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:
: Paul Rubin wrote:
: > I thought there had already been a couple of C compilers written for
: > the 10.  Anyway it seems more in the right spirit to use the old
: > MACRO-10 implementation of kermit if possible.
: 
: Very true - got one in your pocket? :)
: Does this exist anywhere anymore?
: 
Of course:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20*.*

The one-and-only source file is:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.mac

The executable is here:

  1. ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/kermit20.exe
  2. ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/kermit20ftp.exe
  3. ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/kermit20bin.exe

which is the same 36-bit binary in three different formats:

  1. Kermit/DUMPER format
  2. "SET TYPE IMAGE 36 LOCAL, SET TYPE IMAGE 8 REMOTE" TOPS-20 FTP PUT format
  3. Binary-mode FTP format.

- Frank




Article 2740 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Communicating with PDP-10 emulator
Date: 20 Dec 2000 16:01:29 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <91ql4p$m3k$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3A3A338C.8DE7FFA5@bartek.net> <91ocrp$81m$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012191858240.261-100000@bony.umtec.com> <3A40150C.3C98C1F7@bartek.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977328089 22644 128.59.39.2 (20 Dec 2000 16:01:29 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2000 16:01:29 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2740

In article <3A40150C.3C98C1F7@bartek.net>,
Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.net> wrote:
: ...
: Doing FTP into the [TOPS10] emulator would be easy (maybe) if something
: were written to take the data and interface to a mounted disk structure.
: No biggy. 
: 
: Looking at how things are going, and the TOPS-10 7.x monitors, I came
: to realize that Ethernet emulation would only supply DECNET, at the most.
: This helps, if I can contact it with my VAX, but I doubt it.
: 
It would seem somewhat impractical to require a VAX sitting next to your PC
to make effective use of the PDP-10 emulator on the PC :-)  Anyway, although
I confess I never tried Linux DECnet, most of the comments I've heard about
it have not been reassuring.

Anyway, maybe a LAT box would do just as nicely?

: TCP/IP (Arpanet) seems to be beyond TOPS-10's scope, so the best I can
: hope for is a terminal server interface for TELNET and some sort of
: home-grown interface for FTP, or somehow mounting a structure under
: TOPS-10 that points at a local filesystem. NFS ... I have the sources
: around here somewhere for 4.3BSD, but Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD should 
: yield their NFS underbellies for me :)
: 
Remember: if you can get Telnet or serial port access into TOPS-10 (or -20),
you can use Kermit to transfer files in and out:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/

TOPS-20 Kermit is a plain old MACRO program:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.mac

that anybody can build on any TOPS-20 system.  I don't think it requires
any "modern" JSYS's but who remembers.  Documentation is here:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.doc <-- plain text (not Word!)
  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.ps  <-- PostScript
  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.mss <-- Scribe source

There are also pre-built binaries here (1):

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/kermit20.exe
  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/kermit20ftp.exe

It's quite slow (2), but that's another matter -- if anybody was interested,
development could be revived to add some of the modern performance features.
At least it gets files in and out reliably.

TOPS-10 Kermit is another matter, unfortunately.  It's written in the
dreaded Bliss-36 because the same code was also used for VMS (Bliss-32) and
P/OS (Bliss-16).  It was done at Stevens Institute of Technology, who were
big on all three platforms at the time (circa 1984-86).

Unfortunately I don't seem to have a copy of the TOPS-10 Kermit executable.
Maybe there's one on a DECUS tape in Tim Shoppa's archives?  It would
probably be called K10MIT.EXE.  Meanwhile the sources and docs are here:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k10*.*

(1) I really should remember this better, but as I recall there were several
"standards" for storing 36-bit binaries on 8-bit-byte file systems.  The one
that Kermit-20 uses is the same one DUMPER uses to put binary files on tape:
the 36-bit word is divided into five 7-bit bytes, which are dealt into five
8-bit bytes, with the last having its 8th bit set to the original word's
leftover bit.  That's the format of the kermit20.exe file (which transferred
itself Unix).

The kermit20ftp.exe file was uploaded to Unix with TOPS-20 FTP using:

  set type image 36 local
  set type image 8 remote

I ftp'd this one back to TOPS-20 using the same FTP settings and it starts
up OK.  I'm not sure how you could FTP the kermit20.exe file -- probably
you can't.

(2) Remember, the RSX20F front end is the reason why original Kermit was
so slow.  It was slow on purpose.  Modern Kermit is a fast as you want it be.

- Frank


Article 3083 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: New TOPS-20 aware FTP client
Date: 7 Jan 2001 23:58:38 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <93avre$goc$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978911918 17164 128.59.39.2 (7 Jan 2001 23:58:38 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 23:58:38 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3083


C-Kermit 7.1 Alpha.02:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ck71.html

was announced just now on comp.protocols.kermit.misc.  It includes
TYPE TENEX support, as well as a VDIRECTORY command that gets verbose
directory listings from the TOPS-20 FTP server.  And a lot of other
stuff :-)

- Frank


Article 3346 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: New release of DEC-20 Kermit
Date: 29 Jan 2001 23:50:45 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <954vkl$jf1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 980812245 19937 128.59.39.2 (29 Jan 2001 23:50:45 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2001 23:50:45 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com comp.protocols.kermit.misc:326 alt.sys.pdp10:3346


This is to announce (no kidding) Version 5.1 of DECSYSTEM-20 KERMIT,
replacing version 4.2 of September 1988.  Version 5.1 adds long packets,
which were never done before because long packets would crash a real
DEC-20.  But virtually no real DEC-20s exist any more; all current DEC-20s
are either non-DEC clones, or else running on other hardware under
emulation.  So now you can use DEC-20 Kermit to transfer files with packets
up to 9K in length; the previous maximum was 94 bytes.  This gives speed
improvements up to about a factor of 20 (i.e. 2000%).

This update was made in anticipation of the release of publicly available
KL10 emulators capable of running under Linux or other common platforms.
Since any emulator will probably not include Internet support, a way is
needed to import and export files: DEC-20 Kermit (the very first Kermit
program (*)) lives again!  Now when you log in to the DEC-20 (or emulator)
from a PC or other computer running a Kermit-capable terminal emulator, you
can run DEC-20 Kermit to exchange files with your computer, and the
transfers will not be as agonizingly slow as they would have been without
this update.

Installation instructions:

  Download the new Kermit source (one file) in text mode from the
  Kermit Project archive in text ("ASCII") mode:

    ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.mac

  Note: this is a MACRO-20 source file; it is not any kind of "package",
  tarball, ZIP archive, compressed, encrypted, or anything else.  It's
  just PLAIN TEXT (if you use DEC-20s you know what plain text is).
  Rename it to KERMIT.MAC, then:

    load kermit
    save

This produces a KERMIT.EXE file, which is DEC-20 Kermit.  Install it
somewhere in SYS:, or else redefine SYS: to include the directory where
KERMIT.EXE is.  Give it execute permission, e.g. P775252.  Documentation
for the update is here:

    ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/d/k20mit.txt

(*) The first Kermit file transfer occurred on April 29, 1981, between
    two copies of DEC-20 Kermit over a loopback connection between two
    serial ports on the Columbia University DEC-20.

- Frank


Article 3352 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: New release of DEC-20 Kermit
Date: 30 Jan 2001 15:31:59 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <956mpf$qhh$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <954vkl$jf1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A762DDC.FBD6FB61@yk.rim.or.jp>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 980868719 27185 128.59.39.2 (30 Jan 2001 15:31:59 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2001 15:31:59 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com comp.protocols.kermit.misc:329 alt.sys.pdp10:3352

In article <3A762DDC.FBD6FB61@yk.rim.or.jp>,
Ishikawa  <ishikawa@yk.rim.or.jp> wrote:
: > This is to announce (no kidding) Version 5.1 of DECSYSTEM-20 KERMIT,
: > replacing version 4.2 of September 1988.  Version 5.1 adds long packets,
: > which were never done before because long packets would crash a real
: > DEC-20.
: 
: I crashed the DEC-20 because of such long transfer until
: a DEC engineer told me why after we sent them a crash dump tape.
: 
: Essentially I was told that the tty input queue was
: very short since nobody was going type in very quickly and
: I was overflowing it!  Oh, the joy of "mainframe" programming!
: 
Yes, this is the entire reason for the original 94-byte limit on the length
of a Kermit packet.  The initial design of the Kermit protocol was very much
a lowest-common-denominator affair -- a protocol that would not break the
DEC-20 and would also work with the IBM mainframe.  But it was also
deliberately extensible, and that's why we've been able to grow it over the
years.  Unfortunately, many people have yet to see past the original design
and still, after nearly 20 years, believe the protocol is intrinsically slow.

: Care to comment where [the KL20] emulator will be available?.
: 
Tune in to alt.sys.pdp10 for fairly constant updates.

- Frank


Article 3510 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.voicenet.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Kermit (Was: Barb, DSKB is not in catalog!)
Date: 15 Feb 2001 16:09:45 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <96gv09$hjs$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3A85706B.B4A96DC3@nospam.nospam> <uitmdafwq.fsf@nonews.net> <96e538$d0h$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <96gff2$ltm$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 982253385 18044 128.59.39.2 (15 Feb 2001 16:09:45 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2001 16:09:45 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3510

In article <96gff2$ltm$3@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
: But NFT could transfer foreign files to and from the -10.  Isn't
: there a way that NFT and your KERMIT could commit a handshake?
: (I don't recall what the file transfer program was on  the -20 side.)
: 
NFT.  NFT is like Kermit.  It's a file-transfer program.  The difference
is that NFT is a DECnet client -- you need an NFT server on the other
end, over a DECnet connection.  In other words, NFT works only within
the DEC universe (yes, I too have heard that "DECnet is available for
Linux" but I have yet to be convinced that it works).

Kermit does not need DECnet.  It works over TCP/IP or serial ports
and/or modems (and in some implementations also X.25 and other
networking methods), and versions of Kermit are available for
practically every computer and operating system that has ever existed.

Kermit is available for the DECsystem-10 and the DECSYSTEM-20.  It's
available for DOS and Windows.  It's available for every known variety
of UNIX.  It's available for VMS, RSX, RT11, RSTS, TSX+, IAS, ...
It's available for MVS, CMS, CICS, VOS, AOS/VS, ...  It's available
for Plan 9, OS-9, QNX, ...

So as you can see, it's both platform-independent AND works on
different kinds of connections, AND does not require a proprietary
networking method.  We've been working on it for 20 years so it shouldn't
be surprising that it can be useful in certain situations.  Those
who are not familiar with Kermit can get a brief overview here:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kermit.html

- Frank


Article 5283 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Kermit-10 for TOPS-10 7.03
Organization: Kilonet.net
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <3B2E69F6.A8EC10D2@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc)
X-Accept-Language: en
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:56:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134
X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 992897804 24.186.100.134 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:56:44 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:56:44 EDT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5283


Go here for the ".tap" image for Kermit-10 for TOPS-10 (and
TOPS-20), complete with TOPS-10 7.03 .EXE and .REL/.UNV files.

http://pdp10.kilonet.org/files/k10mit-135.tap.gz

Frank, I incremented the edit level to 135, which involved the
following:

Changing CAXx macros to CAM and CAI where appropriate. This was
to fix a bug somewhere in TOPS-10 GLXUNV(?) macros where it would
use CAI where CAM was necessary.

Created a K10MIT.MIC file so you can do "DO K10MIT" and it would
compile correctly.

I tested it with a shareable high-seg, but the above link only
includes a private high-seg. Change "/SAVE" in k10mit.ccl to
"/SSAVE" to enable shareable high-seg. Your mileage may vary.

The default restore point for the above tape is [76,5,KERMIT].
This was my account as a systems guy at LIRICS.

Caveats:

This was tested using simh-2.6 with the DZ11 support I mashed in.
I got 2200 CPS from a Sparc-10 2x60Mhz w/Solaris 8 connecting
into a Celeron 533 running simh.

This should work with TS10 as a tape image, and using c-kermit
to telnet into the console (or KLINIK) should work fine.

The DZ11 support for simh does not work with C-Kermit 7.0, as 
Kermit tries to do something strange with the telnet session
on setup. C-kermit 6.0.192 works fine.

A workaround for the C-kermit 7.0 problem is to telnet into
your local machine, and then telnet into the simulator from
a UNIX shell.

aak


Article 5306 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Kermit-10 for TOPS-10 7.03
Organization: Kilonet.net
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3B2F8E40.B5E1D85F@bartek.dontspamme.net>
References: <3B2E69F6.A8EC10D2@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9gnd54$k2f$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B2F6044.42CA4210@bartek.dontspamme.net> <tiv1vve4puv600@corp.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc)
X-Accept-Language: en
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:41:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134
X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 992972505 24.186.100.134 (Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:41:45 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:41:45 EDT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5306

Timothy Stark wrote:
> 
> I downloaded your copy of k10mit-135.tap.gz but I tried to restore it
> on my TS10 emulator, it attempted to restore k10misc.bli (or .mac),
> it started to report record errors then my emulator crashed.  With
> t10backup program, it resulted the same.  It said that it is
> corrupted tape image.  Please check it.

I tested it yesterday and had no problems, but today I saved the file
and got only 500K of it. The original .tap image is 1.4megs, while the
gzip'd file is 500K+. When I saved the file, it came across as
uncompressed, but only 500K size. 

I did it again, right-clicking on the file and this time got the full
1.4megs and the tape image worked fine.

I put it up with a different suffix so that Netscape doesn't try to
un-gzip it on the fly. Try:

http://pdp10.kilonet.org/files/k10mit-135.tap.gzip

Again, right-click on the link above, and "save link as". It will
come down gzip'd and you'll have to do:

gzip -dc <k10mit-135.tap.gzip >k10mit-135.tap

or,
mv k10mit-135.tap.gzip k10mit-135.tap.gz
gzip -d k10mit-135.tap.gz

aak


Article 5307 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Kermit-10 for TOPS-10 7.03
Date: 19 Jun 2001 19:01:41 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <9go7il$1ni$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3B2E69F6.A8EC10D2@bartek.dontspamme.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 992977301 1778 128.59.39.2 (19 Jun 2001 19:01:41 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2001 19:01:41 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5307

In article <3B2E69F6.A8EC10D2@bartek.dontspamme.net>,
Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:
: 
: Go here for the ".tap" image for Kermit-10 for TOPS-10 (and
: TOPS-20), complete with TOPS-10 7.03 .EXE and .REL/.UNV files.
: 
: http://pdp10.kilonet.org/files/k10mit-135.tap.gz
: 
: Frank, I incremented the edit level to 135...
:
Thanks, I'll update the master copy.  Where's the new source?
(If it's also in the .tap archive, I'm not set up to extract it.)
Ditto for the .MIC file.  The /pub/ftp/files/ directory isn't
open...

: Changing CAXx macros to CAM and CAI where appropriate. This was
: to fix a bug somewhere in TOPS-10 GLXUNV(?) macros where it would
: use CAI where CAM was necessary.
: 
This I find a bit worrisome -- Kermit-10 was build and used all
over the place in the 80s without complaint.  If the CAX macros
are generating bad code, then (a) might it not be a problem in
the emulator, and (b) wouldn't this affect a lot more programs
that Kermit?  Has anybody tried building GALAXY components?

: This was tested using simh-2.6 with the DZ11 support I mashed in.
: I got 2200 CPS from a Sparc-10 2x60Mhz w/Solaris 8 connecting
: into a Celeron 533 running simh.
: 
And long packets were being used, right?  (the main feature of
Dan Norstedt's 3(134) edit from Sep 1989)  Yuk, just think what it
would be without them...

: This should work with TS10 as a tape image, and using c-kermit
: to telnet into the console (or KLINIK) should work fine.
: 
: The DZ11 support for simh does not work with C-Kermit 7.0, as 
: Kermit tries to do something strange with the telnet session
: on setup. C-kermit 6.0.192 works fine.
: 
I would be interested in pursuing this.  Can you give details?
You can tell C-Kermit 7.0 to "set telnet debug on" to watch the
Telnet negotiations.  You can also change the Telnet policies
of C-Kermit 7.0 with "set telopt" commands ("set telopt ?" for
a list -- feel your way thru as with a TOPS-20 program).

: A workaround for the C-kermit 7.0 problem is to telnet into
: your local machine, and then telnet into the simulator from
: a UNIX shell.
: 
I'm sure we can do better than that.  C-Kermit 7.0 works fine for
Telnetting into a *real* DEC-20 and uploading or downloading files
with long packets (using the recently updated Kermit-20).

- Frank


Article 5663 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!easynews!feed.news.qwest.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Tops-20, kermit and getting things in and out of simh
Date: 21 Jul 2001 15:57:22 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <9jc8p2$mtv$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <8f576ee9.0107171324.50c57b2@posting.google.com> <9j4bfs$khd$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <8f576ee9.0107190019.3fe17b7@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 995731042 23487 128.59.39.2 (21 Jul 2001 15:57:22 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2001 15:57:22 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5663

In article <8f576ee9.0107190019.3fe17b7@posting.google.com>,
tom m <tom0565@yahoo.com> wrote:
: > It's the classic bootstrap problem.  If you had Kermit in the first place,
: > you wouldn't have trouble getting it :-)
: 
: Right.  Kermit is step one.  After that, everything else can flow from
: there.
: ...
: > What kind of computer are you sending it from, using which Kermit program
: > and version, over what kind of connection, with what settings?
: 
: This is all occuring on an intel redhat 7.1 linux system.  Kermit
: version 7.0.197.  Telneting into the virtual dz11 interface. Settings,
: no settings I've used seem to make a difference.  transmit /text
: 
It works for me (with toad.xkl.com).

: I did have the same telnet negotiation problems that were posted
: previously, so I actually kermit to localhost and telnet from there. 
:
The double hop is bound to cause trouble -- multiple levels of buffering,
flow control, pty's, who knows what else.

: I'm able to transmit files to the local unix host, but can't seem to
: get kermit not to time out at 10th line or so when talking into the
: emulator.
: 
If you can't make a telnet connection directly from Kermit to the TOPS-20
emulator, that's a good indicator that other things won't work either.
The DZ-11/Telnet-Server shim has to be fixed to implement Telnet protocol
properly.  Perhaps more to the point, the underlying OS (Linux in this case)
also has to have an adequate PTY driver.  Recent experience(*) has shown
that quite a new UNIX-based OS's fall down flat when their ptys are stressed,
e.g. by transferring files through them with Kermit.  Two examples are
AIX and OpenBSD.

In the meantime, C-Kermit has enough controls to let you work around almost
any problem.  When a Telnet server misnegotiates Telnet protocol, you can
use C-Kermit's SET TELNET and SET TELOPT commands to adapt Kermit's
negotiation policies to practically any situation: "help set telnet",
"help set telopt" for details.  If C-Kermit seems to stall making the
initial connection, it is often sufficient to use (in C-Kermit):

  telnet /nowait hostname

Once you have a connection that works interactively, you might still have
trouble with TRANSMIT.  This is to be expected, because TRANSMIT is not
an error-detecting-and-correcting protocol.  Here again you have lots of
adjustments available to work around almost any problem: "help transmit"
and "help set transmit" explains them.

Finally, when bootstrapping Kermit with TRANSMIT, it's better to have a
short bootstrap file than a long one.  KERMIT.MAC is 12000 lines (407K).
KERMIT.EXE, on the other hand, is 140K, but obviously you can't TRANSMIT
it.  The trick would be to find a text-encoded compression method that
can be used on the executable, similar to gzipping and uuencoding on Unix,
but that is friendly to 36-bit binaries.

I notice that gzip and uuencode are actually available on toad, but
gzip doesn't handle 36-bit executables:

  @ gzip kermit.exe
  GZIP: kermit.exe has byte size > 8; bytes > 255 will be truncated
   do you wish to proceed (y or n)? n
	  skipped
  @

I'm probably not remembering some common technique from the 70s and 80s
for shipping 36-bit binaries around...

(*) C-Kermit 8.0 Beta includes a new SSH command, which works by starting
    the external SSH program on a pty, thus allowing SSH to be the transport
    for Kermit connections, and therefore allowing file transfer, scripting,
    character-set translation, etc, over SSH.  This works great on some
    UNIXes, not so great on others, and not at all on still others.

- Frank


Article 6044 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc
From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: KS10 stuff, and hardware wanted...
Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:01:24 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <9no0sk$fj1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0109100747410.470-100000@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net> <3B9E6D3F.2349DC9A@ins-msi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1000310484 15969 128.59.39.2 (12 Sep 2001 16:01:24 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:01:24 GMT
Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6044

In article <3B9E6D3F.2349DC9A@ins-msi.com>,
Jeff Campbell  <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> wrote:
: Can't help with the hardware, but you might try using kermit on the VAX
: instead of SET HOST/DTE.
: 
It's here:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.html

The commands you would want are:

  log session <filename>  ; To log everything to a file
  set escape <number>     ; In case you need to change the escape char
  set carrier-watch off   ; Don't require carrier -- stay connected
  set port txa0:          ; Or whatever
  set speed 1200          ; Or whatever
  set flow xon/xoff       ; If the 2020 FPE supports it this should help
  set parity none         ; (or use "even" if required)
  connect

Use Ctrl-\, then letter "c", to escape back to the C-Kermit prompt.

You can also push stuff at the 2020 in a smarter way than you're doing
now, with Kermit's TRANSMIT command.  At the C-Kermit> or K-95> prompt,
type "help transmit" and "help set transmit" for info.

If you have trouble, let me know; I'll be glad to help.  In particular,
if you need to push arbitrary 8-bit data thru the connection, some
additional setup (and precautions) will be needed.

- Frank