Article 5542 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: MCA25 cache/pager question & other obscure hardware questions Date: 31 Jul 1999 23:22:39 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7o0p3f$c7c$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 933488563 206 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5542 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >Did the MCA25 cache/pager upgrade for the KL10 (which was standard on the >KL10-PW as used in the 1095 and 2065, IINM) require new microcode? As I remember, the answer is "no". It was not a new pager, it was a pager with a larger TLB (translation look-aside buffer). It meant that more virtual-to-physical translations were kept in the pager, which reduced the number of times that the microcode had to go to the page tables. As for the cache, there were simply more entries in the table that was indexed into by a portion of the physical address bits. The microcode was unaware of the increased table size; there simply were less cache misses than before. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 5547 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: madbeing@aol.coms1x (MadBeing) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: MCA25 cache/pager question & other obscure hardware questions Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Aug 1999 13:40:26 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990803094026.20390.00002644@ng-ch1.aol.com> Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5547 >Thanks for confirming that. I think there must have also been a single wire >change on the backplane for the signal that controls the address >multiplexers. There might have been such a mod. The FS guy we had was very good, fast and precise. I might have been out of the machine room when he did that piece. >Anyhow, since I don't have a set of MF20 prints, I have a few more >questiosn about that. > >The memory array boards in the MF20 and MG20 are 11 bits wide, and there are >four of them to make a 36-bit work plus 8 bits for ECC. The MF20/MG20 >backplane has room for three sets of four boards. Each MG20 set would be >1 Mword. The MG20 prints indicate that only two sets can be installed for a >total MG20 capacity of 2 Mwords. (And two of those could be used on a KL10 >to reach the maximum physical addressing limit of 4 Mwords.) I think the 2 set limit for the MG20 might have been related to either power or cooling limitations. I know that FS didn't like you to run the processor for any length of time with the cages opened. Anyway, I can't give you a definite on that one. If I can dig up one of my FS buddies from TOPS20 days they might remember. The power supplies on those systems were always a problem. It got to a point were FS cache'd a spare main power supply on site for us. >Since the MF20 used 16K DRAMs, I'd expect that each set would be 256 Kwords. >So was the maximum capacity of an MF20 768 Kwords? That seems like an >unusual size. Yes, that was the size of a max'ed out MF20. Its not really that unusual, just a multiple of 256K word chunks which was a pretty common unit to sell memory in those days. 768Kw is enough to timeshare quite a few people with good response. When I first started working at the site we had only 512Kw of MB core memory (which was _really_ slow) and we handled about 40 interactive users combined with batch cobol jobs running the university accounting systems. >And how many MF20s could be connected to a KL10? The KL10-PV prints show >up to four; was that the limit? This one I'm not sure of.. We had two KL's at our site. One ended up with a single MG20 and the other had two max'd MF20's. If you could put 4 on the processor there must have been an additional cab you needed to purchase because 2 mem units really filled up the M-box. Dan Smith "Old Programmers never die, They just jrst to a new address" Article 5549 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!nntp.ix.netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: MCA25 cache/pager question & other obscure hardware questions Date: 06 Aug 1999 23:26:55 GMT Organization: NETCOM On-line services Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <19990731082458.18167.00003577@ng-fn1.aol.com> Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: netcom16.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 06 6:26:55 PM CDT 1999 NNTP-Posting-User: alderson In-reply-to: Eric Smith's message of 31 Jul 1999 17:46:51 -0700 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5549 In article Eric Smith writes: >And how many MF20s could be connected to a KL10? The KL10-PV prints show >up to four; was that the limit? Yes, that was the limit, and you got 3MW on the system. One of our KLs at LOTS had that configuration until we got more MG20. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 7763 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!news.mindspring.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 Physical Memory Capacity? Date: 30 Mar 2000 01:22:59 GMT Organization: NETCOM On-line services Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20000318214233.01947.00006343@ng-dc1.aol.com> <38D53B78.EBC266E5@prescienttech.com> Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.66 X-Server-Date: 30 Mar 2000 01:22:59 GMT In-reply-to: "Carl R. Friend"'s message of Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:41:28 -0500 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:7763 In article <38D53B78.EBC266E5@prescienttech.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: >JimCook wrote: >> What is the physical memory capacity (address limit) of the various >> PDP-10 processors? >> KI-10? > 256 kw logical, 4 Mw physical (22-bit MA bus) >> KL-10? > Same as KI for -10s (-20s with segments _may_ be different) The hardware limit on the KL was, as you say, 4MW. On Tops-20, the logical address space prior to version 4 (extended addressing) was 256KW; after the invention of extended addressing on the KL (30 bits of address), the logical address space went to 8MW (23 bits of address). The XKL-1 CPU on the Toad-1 implements the full 30-bit physical address space as well as the 30-bit logical address space when running Tops-20; our Tops-10 implementation only went to 32MW physical so that we didn't have to schratz around with creating another level of page tables in an OS we didn't know as well. Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) Customer Advocacy, XKL LLC, 1993-now last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 8144 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.execpc.com!reader3-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!not-for-mail Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:43:13 -0500 From: "Robert J. Stevens" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Implementing shared memory on TOPS-20 References: <8d1vu4$i0d$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38f7f3d4$0$26042@news.execpc.com> Organization: ExecPC Internet - Milwaukee, WI NNTP-Posting-Host: aa3ab5bb.news.execpc.com X-Trace: Tl\okXWcmL7I5[332>a9Y;bfNiaEHUgJ7RYcgIRLSUE=FN0UQVRR\a5cBoPT_4]VQ;lD=NV0VOVD5YdN__\LJQD5F]oQm9]^\A2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@execpc.com Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8144 I have a box of Original Digital Diskettes I was given a few years ago. Here's a list AS-M329D-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V15-15 FLP A AS-M330D-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V15-15 FLP B AS-M331C-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V15-15 FLP C AS-M330C-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V14-45 FLP A AS-M330C-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V14-45 FLP B AS-M330B-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V14-45 FLP B MASTER <--- WRITTEN LABEL AS-M330D-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V15-15 FLP B WORKING SET <--- WRITTEN LABEL AS-M331B-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V14-45 FLP C MASTER 5&5.1<--- WRITTEN LABEL AS-M331C-BM TOPS-20 RSX20F V15-15 FLP C WORKING SET <--- WRITTEN LABEL AS-BB33A-BM KL10 MCRD V326 FLP AS-BB33A-BM KL10 MCRD V326 FLP Plus two Others marked REL 3 SYS FLOP "A" 9/8/78 REL 3A SYS A 12/12/78 What might these be worth and would anyone be interested. They all seem to be in very good shape and only a couple show any signs of being in the drives or having been used. MAKE ME AN OFFER Bob in Wisconsin Article 748 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit? References: <39a013e5.25745326@news.remarq.com> <399941CC.1CC6DFA5@netinsight.se> <8noeok$q6t$6@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Date: 20 Aug 2000 20:24:28 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 20 Aug 2000 20:30:25 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.folklore.computers:4285 comp.arch:1950 alt.sys.pdp8:336 alt.sys.pdp10:748 alt.sys.pdp11:360 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Now I'm not sure what you mean by architecture. Don't you > consider the KA and the KL, both PDP-10s, different hardware > architecture? We sure did. In the Blaauw & Brooks taxonomy [*], architecture is what is seen by the programmers. In that sense, the PDP-6 and KA10 are nearly identical. The later PDP-10 processors are mostly the same, with the addition of paging, which is mostly only an issue for the monitor developers. The implementation is how the logic design implements the architecture. The KA, KI, KL, and KS had very different implementations. Even within an implementation, there can be large differences in the realization, which is how the logic is physically implemented. For instance, the IBM 709 and 7090 had the same architecture and implementation, but the realization was tubes for the 709 and transistors for the 7090. [*] _Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution_, Gerrit A> Blaauw & Frederick P. Brooks Jr, Addison-Wesley, 1997 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201105578/ Article 2605 of alt.sys.pdp10: From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: about KL10 console? Date: 16 Dec 2000 18:03:32 -0500 Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 13 Message-ID: <91gsc4$omm$1@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3A3B60DD.929AB0F5@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Trace: 16 Dec 2000 18:05:03 -0500, dbit.dbit.com XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!not-for-mail Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2605 In article <3A3B60DD.929AB0F5@bellatlantic.net>, hg/jb wrote: >11/35-11/40 did go end of life after the 34 and 44 were announced.. I was told at one point, that LCG kept the 11/40 in production for their own purposes long after it was dropped as a separate product -- true? They certainly seemed to have their own silk screen for the front panel (which was remote mounted on the short+fat 20s). I've heard of 11/34s being used as FEs, my impression was that that was done in the field though, anyway the nice thing with the 11/40 is the non-volatile switch register. John Wilson D Bit Article 2696 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RH20 question, reposted References: X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 19 Dec 2000 13:42:31 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 19 Dec 2000 13:43:22 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nntp.flash.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2696 Erno Palonheimo writes: > I have a RH20 disk interface - how similar is this to RH11? Can it be > used in place of one and have the DEC operating systems support it? > And, how should it be installed and what cards should I have (I'm not > sure whether it's complete). It is going to be installed into a > pdp11/34 that used to be the console of a KL10. The KL10 is long > gone, sadly enough, but I'm about to revive the pdp11 part that was > left. The RH20 is not *anything* like an RH11. OK, the Massbus transceiver modules are the same, but everything else is different. The RH20 is *NOT* a Unibus device, and cannot be used in any way on a PDP-11. It plugs into dedicated slots of a KL10, and is electrically part of the KL10 C bus and E bus. If you have an RH20 with no KL10 to plug it into, the only use for it is to send it to someone who has a KL10. I volunteer. :-) Eric Article 2827 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:41:01 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 977546463 68580 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: sean In-Reply-To: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2827 On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Rolie Baldock wrote: > There is a lot of talk about emulators on this NG but what is the > difference between an emulator and a microcoded machine? It is my contention that there is no real difference between an emulator and microcode. The difference, such as it is, is that microcode tends to be written for a platform that runs no other software, whereas an emulator is typically written for a platform that runs a range of application software. Microcode also tends to be the sole application running on the hardware, wheras an emulator is often just a single process on a multiprogramming platform or even a timesharing system. I regard these differences as illusory. There is no clear black and white distinction. I understand that KL10 hardware was once microcoded to emulate an S/360. Re-read the previous statement carefully...it proves my point. If you restrict "PDP-10" to those machines which implemented the instruction set in hardware, then you'd be limited to the PDP-6, the KA10, and the KI10. Even then, the PDP-6 and KA10 used hardware subroutines (and thus were easily hacked to add other instructions), and the KI10 had somewhat of a proto-microcode. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 3380 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Help understanding interrupt processing Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3A764A09.8FEE136B@digiweb.com> <3A78E586.8864B7C7@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A7D0848.29678A56@mail.bcpl.net> <95lkti$15d3$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:28:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 981365328 144.132.244.163 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:28:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:28:48 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3380 in article 95lkti$15d3$1@nntp1.ba.best.com, Joe Smith at inwap@best.com wrote on 05/02/2001 18:32: > In article <3A7D0848.29678A56@mail.bcpl.net>, > Ken McMonigal wrote: >> Questions are: >> >> 1) Will instruction look-ahead affect the emulator? As I ask this, I >> am working on trying to find available on-line docs (for the -10) as >> well as my on-disk files on interrupts/exceptions/pipelines for >> non -10 systems. How does/did the hardware handle it? > > The PDP-10 (as sold by DEC) had no pipeline. > Instructions were executed one at a time. > Concepts like conditional execution and branch prediction are totally foreign. The closest a KL got to modern processor tricks was memory pre-fetches. JUPITER that got cancelled was meant to have more than one micro engine and pipelined instruction fetch and execute. Some other non-DEC KL equivalents IIRC did have pipelines there name escapes me ATM. Cheers Mark ;) Article 3382 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A7EA309.7B128B2@mail.bcpl.net> From: Ken McMonigal X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Help understanding interrupt processing References: <3A764A09.8FEE136B@digiweb.com> <3A78E586.8864B7C7@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A7D0848.29678A56@mail.bcpl.net> <95lkti$15d3$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:56:41 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.19.142.56 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 981377624 207.19.142.56 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:53:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:53:44 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3382 Joe Smith wrote: > > In article <3A7D0848.29678A56@mail.bcpl.net>, > Ken McMonigal wrote: > >Questions are: > > > >1) Will instruction look-ahead affect the emulator? As I ask this, I > >am working on trying to find available on-line docs (for the -10) as > >well as my on-disk files on interrupts/exceptions/pipelines for > >non -10 systems. How does/did the hardware handle it? > > The PDP-10 (as sold by DEC) had no pipeline. > Instructions were executed one at a time. > Concepts like conditional execution and branch prediction are totally foreign. > > On the KA, the fastest way to search for a string in a text buffer was > to use self-modifying code. If the inner loop could be implemented in > fewer than 12 instructions, the code would be loaded into the accumulators > ("Fast Memory") and the program would jump into the accumulators (where > the Program Counter has a value between 0 and 17 inclusive). > > > Are the instructions that are being sent to the > >emulator assumed to be executed without invoking look-ahead? > > In order to run with the existing TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 Monitors, it would > have to be done in such as way that the page-fault handler and interrupt > handler would not be able to see any affects of look-ahead. > > >Since "interrupt" is generally used to describe asynchronous > >I/O requests, this would seem to be more like an exception > >in a x86 when an arithmetic error occurs. Did the KI-10 have an > >instruction pipeline & will flushing of it be necessary? > > No pipeline. No flushing. > > >2) As I have never written an emulator, I was wondering how true > >to the initial product the user is expecting it to be? > > 100%. Should be able to run any and all of the user-mode diagnostics > and most of the kernel-mode ones. > -Joe > > -- > See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. Thanks for the info, Joe, as well as taking the time to wander through a rather long post. As always, you are very informative. I had not seen that technique of running in the accumulators before & think it is probably worthy of posting in alt.folklore.comp. Of course, today, with structured programming, self-modifying code is frowned upon. Also, with the newer architectures, it probably can cause ram cache misses and slow things up. I'm thinking of going through my old Univac-1108 assembler stuff to see if any equivalent technique as you described could occur. At our company, around 1974-1983, we used our own version of the the HP-2100 (micro-coded). We employed self-modifying code, although very rarely. One example that comes to mind was a shift or rotate command to properly normalize numbers for subsequent multiplication to ensure that overflows didn't occur. Of course, self-modifying code made for really fun debugging sessions! :) Article 3565 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: 36 bits Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:46:48 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <96k947$7u1$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 982367211 53708 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: del To: Frank da Cruz In-Reply-To: <96k947$7u1$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu> Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3565 On 16 Feb 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote: > So in fact, 36 bits ruled from 1952 to 1983 -- 31 years Try 1952 until 1988. DEC announced the cancellation in 1983, but new hardware and software came out for 5 years thereafter. In fact, there was even a new KL10 variant. So, 36-bits lasted 36 years. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 3580 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: 36 bits From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Organization: Everett Associates X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) References: <96k947$7u1$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6LSj6.2251$ws2.139496@ord-read.news.verio.net> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:28:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.70.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 982513730 157.238.70.4 (Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:28:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:28:50 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3580 In article , mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU says... > >On 16 Feb 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote: >> So in fact, 36 bits ruled from 1952 to 1983 -- 31 years > >Try 1952 until 1988. DEC announced the cancellation in 1983, but new >hardware and software came out for 5 years thereafter. In fact, there was >even a new KL10 variant. > >So, 36-bits lasted 36 years. Yes, "lasted" would be a much more appropriate term than "ruled". Have we forgotten that the late '50s and early '60s were "ruled" by byte oriented machines such as the IBM 1401 and it's various semi-clones (such as the Honeywell 200). Actually the term "byte" wasn't at that time used to describe this class of machines, they were contemporaneously refered to as character machines. In the mid-'60s IBM introduced the 360 series, which spearheaded the trend toward 32-bit machines. By 1970, 32 bits "ruled". The best that can be said of 36-bit machines is that they "ruled" a relatively small backwater of computing. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 3578 of alt.sys.pdp10: Message-ID: <3A8FC6C5.68C3FB16@ev1.net> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 04:57:41 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: 36 bits References: <96k947$7u1$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-176.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 982494122 taydal-207-55-144-176.ev1.net (18 Feb 2001 05:02:02 -0600) Lines: 22 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3578 Frank da Cruz wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > But we also know, or at least suspect, that the PDP-6 must have been > inspired at least in part by the IBM 7094, also a 36-bit machine, which is > not only where LISP came from (CARs and CDRs), but the first timesharing > (MIT's CTSS). The 7094 was preceded by the 7090, which in turn was > preceded by the 709 and that by the 701. The 701 was the world's first > production computer using binary (not decimal) logic, and it had 36-bit > words. So in fact, 36 bits ruled from 1952 to 1983 -- 31 years, which is > way longer than 16, 32, or 64 bits have ruled, so really, 36 bits are > normal and everything else is strange. > The first Lisp was actually done on an IBM 704...*not* an IBM 7090... although *older* versions of the Jargon file said the 7090. I have it on *very* good authority that the first Lisp was done on the IBM 704. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ Article 3733 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: O/S for PDP-10 plus PDP-10 FPGA box prototype Date: 5 Mar 2001 22:19:40 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9813ds$e0p$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3aa0266f.4659287@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3AA0844E.A2E68512@mail.bcpl.net> <3aa17069.4085815@news.m.iinet.net.au> <6uk8658w3r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 983830780 14361 206.184.139.134 (5 Mar 2001 22:19:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Mar 2001 22:19:40 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3733 In article <6uk8658w3r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: > >> We have enough info from Tom Stockebrand and others in this NG to put >> DECTAPEs on a KI/KA ten. > >Neat. Usually they only were on KL-10s. I like DECTAPEs since I first >saw this elegantly simple device running on an PDP-8/A. No, not usually on KL-10s. User-accessable DECtapes were ubiquitous on KA and KI but somewhat rare on KL. (The DECtapes that were attached to the console front-end were NOT assessable via the MOUNT command.) The Colorado School of Mines had a couple hundred student-owned DECtapes in the library when we upgrade from a KA to a KL + KS. Because we were keeping a lot of the KA peripherals, we ordered a KL-1091 with I/O-Bus adapter, and two TU55 transports. We ran into a couple of problems getting DTB defined (no problem with just a single DECtape controller; DTA). I ended up disassembling the DECtape formatter program, adding mnemonics to the re-created source, and defining a feature-test for DTA vs DTB. -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. Article 3882 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: From: Paul Repacholi Date: 16 Mar 2001 13:42:10 +0800 Message-ID: <87zoeml171.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 56 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.61.201.172 X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 13:27:57 +0800, 202.61.201.172 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3882 Eric Smith writes: > > Can anybody point me to > > some online mechanical photos or drawings, and module maps? > > Not much online yet. Module utilization for the KL10-PV APR (model B > backplane) and I/O backplane (from a DECsystem-1090) is at: Rough layout of a KL-10E: (from memory...) +-------------+ |---| Fan| *|Bat| | |----- -----| | | |CPU | |CPU | | E | |PS | |Box | |Reg | | | *|MFPS| | M | |und | |Box | +----| |----+ |--------|IO | |----| | |* CPU PS |MF | |4x | 3 Ph Ferro-resonant |20 |---|RH | 15V out to Regs |----| |CINI| | |----| | | | 11/40 FE | | IO box PS | | | +-- --+ | | | DH-11 TTY | | and cable | | trunk | | | +-------------+ Notes. Stuuf with * next to it is underneath BBU is for MF-20. 48V @ 60A good for 30sec! CPU reg out, 350A @ -5.2V 240A @ 2V Fugistsu SMPSs from an Armdahl ideal swap! ( and bring system power down to ~3-4KW ) MF PS is under CPU PS. Stuff on left is on swing out frames. IO PS is H744s in a ??? 11 family PS unit. Same as 40 almost. Forgot the KW-20 is on the right above the FE. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. Article 3923 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: <87zoeml171.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 16 Mar 2001 20:15:24 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 20:18:22 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!uninett.no!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3923 Paul Repacholi writes: > CPU reg out, 350A @ -5.2V 240A @ 2V Only 140A at -2.0V. The configuration is nine or ten regulators at -5.2V 35A, and four at -2.0V 35A. Article 3883 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: <98rmev$289m$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 16 Mar 2001 13:53:48 +0800 Message-ID: <87r8zyl0nn.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.61.201.172 X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 13:28:03 +0800, 202.61.201.172 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3883 Eric Smith writes: > jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John Francis) wrote: > > Half? Wasn't a standard KL-10 three bays wide? > > "Heinz Wolter" writes: > > Maybe I'm missing a box - my setup was separated > > into two parts - one has the RH, the 11/44 and I guess > > the other has the CPU. I hope I'm not missing > > the memory box... > > It sounds worse than that. You're missing not only > the memory, but also the RH20s (Massbus interfaces) > and DTE20s (front end and I/O processor interfaces). If they are 2 wide 'corp cab' vax like, then he has everything. THe RHs are in the IO box, above the 11/40, as is the DTE. The Memory, if it is MF or MG, is at the back of the IO cab. If it is MA... core, that would have been in the bottom of the CPU cab *I think* DEC in there infinite wisdom initialy would only ship MOS to 20s. We went through this with the UWA KL. They LENT 512K of core, until they changed the availabiliy... Would not even come at shipping a '20' to run Tops-10... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. Article 3930 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: <98rmev$289m$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <87r8zyl0nn.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 16 Mar 2001 21:01:53 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 21:04:51 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3930 Paul Repacholi writes: > If they are 2 wide 'corp cab' vax like, then he has everything. THe > RHs are in the IO box, above the 11/40, as is the DTE. The Memory, if > it is MF or MG, is at the back of the IO cab. If it is MA... core, > that would have been in the bottom of the CPU cab *I think* That's certainly not true of the 2060s and 2065s I've seen, they definitely had three corporate cabinets, and the DTE20s, RH20s, and memory are in a separate cabinet from the 11/40. I suppose it's possible that the 2040 might have fit in two cabinets. The 2040 didn't support the DMA20 memory interface. DIA20 I/O bus interface. If they also reduced the number of supprted DTE20s and RH20s, and only allowd for one memory box, and didn't have a BA11 expander on the 11/40, I can see how they might have just barely squeeze that all into two cabinets instead of three. However, I'm pretty sure my 2040 print set shows a three-cabinet configuration. Article 3922 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 16 Mar 2001 20:12:16 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 20:15:14 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3922 "Heinz Wolter" writes: > I don't remember seeing a pdp11 hiding in there...but ot's been years > I *DO* have a spare 11/45 - will that work - if I can get > it running RSX20F ? (offhand I can't remember the differences) > *** but I would be missing the DTE interface boards, no? > or are they housed in the 10 chassis with only a unibus cable going to the > 11? Yes, the DTE20s, RH20s, and the optional DIA20 and DMA20 do in what I call the "I/O Controller" cabinet. I'm not sure if there's a more official name for it. This is NOT the same cabinet that houses the PDP-11/40 front end. > Thanks for your help, Eric. Great web site, by the way.. Did you ever > build the dram board? you could use 36 bit wide parity 72 sticks if > you can find those these days...would he an interesting hardware hack. Not yet. I'll be trying to set up the DECSYSTEM-2065 later in the year. Since it already has working MG20 memory, the need to build a board is less urgent, but I'd still like to do it. If I do, I'll probably use a Xilinx Spartan II FPGA for control and ECC, and synchronous SRAMs for the memory. The objective is to make the memory operate as fast as the KL10 can handle. Article 4006 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: <87n1al6j0r.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 18 Mar 2001 23:48:19 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 18 Mar 2001 23:51:40 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!64.152.100.70!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4006 I wrote about the KL10 packaging: > Yes, the DTE20s, RH20s, and the optional DIA20 and DMA20 do in what > I call the "I/O Controller" cabinet. I'm not sure if there's a more > official name for it. > > This is NOT the same cabinet that houses the PDP-11/40 front end. Paul Repacholi wrote: > Yes, you are right. Just had a look. 3 corp cabs, not 2... What else > was in the 3rd one with the 40? Power controller in the bottom, but > is that all? The front end cabinet of a KL10-C, -E or -R (corporate cabinets) contains the 11/40, a BA11 expansion box, the RX01 dual floppy drive, and the power control. I think in some configurations there may also be MF20 memory boxes in this cabinet, though I'd have to dig out the MF20 installation docs to check. The BA11 expansion box is presumably present because it was expected that all the unit-record equipment and at least some of the terminal muxes would be on the front end Unibus, whereas on the tall-cabinet KLs (the 1080 and 1090) such things were on the KI I/O bus (attached to a DIA20). Article 4073 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: <87n1al6j0r.fsf@prep.synonet.com> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 21 Mar 2001 03:48:19 +0800 Message-ID: <87k85k2pdo.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.pe01.dial.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 21 Mar 2001 03:08:56 +0800, 172.pe01.dial.iqnet.net.au Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4073 Eric Smith writes: > The BA11 expansion box is presumably present because it was expected > that all the unit-record equipment and at least some of the > terminal muxes would be on the front end Unibus, whereas on the > tall-cabinet KLs (the 1080 and 1090) such things were on the KI I/O > bus (attached to a DIA20). Ah, I forgot the BA-11... I tossed several DHs and shoehorned one into the 40 cab. No need for the BA :) Hell, 32 lines is plenty for home! -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. Article 3907 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.nj.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "rich catena" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: Subject: Re: KL questions Lines: 106 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:42:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.95.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.nj.home.com 984778933 24.9.95.209 (Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:42:13 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:42:13 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3907 The 11 only booted off floppy as a last resort ( in troubleshooting situations) . normally it booted of a 16 bit formated section of a dual ported rp06 or 7. "Eric Smith" wrote in message news:qhd7biwidu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com... > "Heinz Wolter" writes: > > I visited my KL in storage for the first time in two years. > > The half-cabinet that is easily accessible shows an RH10. I think > > I can spot the half rack of the 11/44 on the other side of the bay. > > The RH10 is not part of a KL, although it certainly can be part of a > DECsystem-10 or DECSYSTEM-20. > > > Both cabinet halves are vax780 style, size and colour (sky blue?). > > There should be *three* cabinets that size. It's a DECsystem-1091 or 1095, > depending on whether it has the MCA25 pager & cache upgrade. > > One cabinet houses the main CPU card cage (about 54 slots of extended > hex cards of ECL logic). One cabinet houses the I/O control (RH20s, and > optionally DIA20 I/O bus interface and DMA20 memory bus interface) > and memory (usually MF20 or MG20 semiconductor, but could be MA20 or MB20 > core). One cabinet houses the PDP-11/40 front end processor, a BA11 > expander box, and an RX01 dual 8" floppy drive. > > If you're missing any of those three cabinets, you don't really have a > KL. Pray that the one you're missing is the front end, since you can > cobble up another PDP-11 to replace it. If you're missing the main CPU > or I/O cabinets, your screwed. > > > I thought KLs were DEC "terracotta"? > > Only if they're in DECSYSTEM-20s. > > > q1: can someone tell me what kl's booted the 11/44 off? RL02's? RX's? > > ie what did the 11/44 load the RSX variant from? > > was it a part of or file system on the 10's RP/RM disks? > > A KL does not have an 11/44. > > The KL's 11/40 boots RSX20F from an RX01. > > > q2: has anyone seen commercialmassbus plug-in compatible hard drive > > units? for SCSI drives preferably... is there any (small) market for > > such a beast? I'm sure people don't relish running noisy power hungry > > washing-machine sized RP's...I've got no RPs and no way to run > > anything unless I fake out the MASSBUS disks. > > Several companies have made Massbus/SCSI interfaces. Some worked in > 18-bit mode, and thus could be used on 36-bit machines. Others did not. > None were cheap. > > > q3: the power plugs look like 220v 3 phase hubbels- I heard some people had > > managed to rewire the transformers to use 220v single phase? > > Most of the stuff inside the KL runs on single phase. > > Except the APR (arithmetic processor, the "real" CPU). The first stage > power supply for that runs three phase through three step-down > transformers into a diode bridge to produce 12VDC at a rated 490A. By > using a three-phase bridge, the rectified waveform never drops below > 0.86 * peak, which substantially reduces the demand on the filter > capacitors. > > If you want to run it on single phase, you're going to need to > completely replace the input stage of the power supply, and you'll need > upwards of 50A of 120V. > > The alternative is to replace both the first and second stages of the > power supply. The APR cage actually needs nine tightly regulated > -5.2V at 35A supplies, and four -2.0V at 35A supplies. Using switching > power supplies at 80% efficiency, you would need 2397.5W input, or > 20A of 120V (assuming a unity power factor). > > Remember, that's just for the APR. I haven't even added up the > power requirements for the I/O controller cabinet an front end cabinet. > I imagine that you'll need at least another 20A for those. > > > q5: The DEC Datasystem 570, I was told repacked 11/70. None of my books > > mention that nomenclature.. anyone know? > > By amazing coincidence, I have one of those too. It is, as you say, just > a repackaging. > > > q6> I'm assuming all modern KLs used "mos" drams for memory and that > > it was housed in the CPU half of the cabinet. > > It's in the I/O controller cabinet of the CPU, with cables to the APR > cabinet. I think I vaguely recall that if you have MA20, MB20, or MF20 > memory, that some of it can wind up in the front end cabinet. There isn't > room in the APR cabinet for it. > > > Can anybody point me to > > some online mechanical photos or drawings, and module maps? > > Not much online yet. Module utilization for the KL10-PV APR (model B > backplane) and I/O backplane (from a DECsystem-1090) is at: > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pdp-10/kl10d_modules.html Article 3909 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news3.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: Subject: Re: KL questions Lines: 82 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:54:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.42.241.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news3.rdc1.on.home.com 984786849 24.42.241.65 (Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:54:09 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:54:09 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3909 Eric Smith wrote in message news:qhd7biwidu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com... > "Heinz Wolter" writes: > > I visited my KL in storage for the first time in two years. > > The half-cabinet that is easily accessible shows an RH10. > > I think > > I can spot the half rack of the 11/44 on the other > > side of the bay. > > The RH10 is not part of a KL, although it certainly can > be part of a > DECsystem-10 or DECSYSTEM-20. > > > Both cabinet halves are vax780 style, size and colour > > (sky blue?). > > There should be *three* cabinets that size. It's a > DECsystem-1091 or 1095, > depending on whether it has the MCA25 pager & > cache upgrade. > > One cabinet houses the main CPU card cage (about 54 > slots of extended > hex cards of ECL logic). One cabinet > houses the I/O control (RH20s, and optionally DIA20 > I/O bus interface and DMA20 memory bus interface) > and memory (usually MF20 or MG20 semiconductor, > but could be MA20 or MB20 core). One cabinet > houses the PDP-11/40 front end processor, a BA11 > expander box, and an RX01 dual 8" floppy drive. > > If you're missing any of those three cabinets, you don't > really have a KL. Pray that the one you're missing > is the front end, since you can cobble up another > PDP-11 to replace it. If you're missing the > main CPU or I/O cabinets, your screwed. > > > I thought KLs were DEC "terracotta"? > > Only if they're in DECSYSTEM-20s. > I thought the DEC-20's were two units wide, and about 5' high, but each unit had two standard 19" wide rack mount units.Don't know about 10's, though. I thought they were 6' racks, each of which contained one 19" rack. > > q3: the power plugs look like 220v 3 phase hubbels- > > I heard some people had managed to rewire the > > transformers to use 220v single phase? > > Most of the stuff inside the KL runs on single phase. > > Except the APR (arithmetic processor, the "real" CPU). > The first stage power supply for that runs three phase > through three step-down transformers into a diode > bridge to produce 12VDC at a rated 490A. By > using a three-phase bridge, the rectified waveform > never drops below 0.86 * peak, which substantially > reduces the demand on the filter capacitors. > > If you want to run it on single phase, you're going to need to > completely replace the input stage of the power > supply, and you'll need upwards of 50A of 120V. > Again, for 20's, they ran on three phase 208 volts, slightly non standard. But that's 208 volts phase to phase. Voltage from phase to neutral is 208/SQRT(3), (ask any *real* electrical engineer about 1.732, i.e. SQRT(3)) which is 120 volts, standard house voltage (but as you say, lots of current to feed the ECL). Don [e-mail address: that's not not, it's hot] Article 3920 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: From: Paul Repacholi Date: 17 Mar 2001 11:27:43 +0800 Message-ID: <87ofv1847k.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.61.201.181 X-Trace: 17 Mar 2001 11:10:27 +0800, 202.61.201.181 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3920 "Don Chiasson" writes: > I thought the DEC-20's were two units wide, and about 5' high, but > each unit had two standard 19" wide rack mount units.Don't know > about 10's, though. I thought they were 6' racks, each of which > contained one 19" rack. KL-10, B, C, and Ds where in Full height 19"racks. The KL-10E and KL-10RE, aka 1091 and 1095 where in double width corp cabs. Mine are distinctly BLUE. Well, the tops and fan trims anyway... The power is meant to be direct connected. I dont even want to think of the price for a plus and switched socket... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. Article 3928 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: <87ofv1847k.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 16 Mar 2001 20:56:05 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 20:59:03 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3928 Paul Repacholi writes: > The power is meant to be direct connected. I dont even want to think > of the price for a plus and switched socket... In the US they commonly have a fairly massive Hubbell pin-and-sleeve connector. This is the next step up from the more common twist-lock connectors. In the case of the KL10-E, I think what they're using is a 4P5W (four pole five wire) 60A 3-phase 120/208V connector, Hubbell part number HBL560P7W or C560P9W plug. These plugs are about 113 mm in diameter and 254 mm long. These connectors are in section F of Hubbell's catalog, which used to be available online in PDF format at http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/ but it appears that they're revising section F in the online catalog. Some of the material is available in individual data sheets in their PDF Data Library section. They conform to international standards IEC 309-1 and IEC 309-2, which specify a different pin configuration for every combination of number of poles, voltage, and current. So there should be a suitable connector for any supported KL10 configuration worldwide. I haven't priced these yet; I'll have to contact my local distributor, Bell Electrical. Article 3924 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 16 Mar 2001 20:17:51 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 20:20:48 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3924 "Don Chiasson" writes: > I thought the DEC-20's were two units wide, and about 5' high, > but each unit had two standard 19" wide rack mount units. Three cabinets. Only the front end cabinet uses standard 19" rack mount. > Don't > know about 10's, though. I thought they were 6' racks, each of > which contained one 19" rack. The earlier KL10s as used in the DECsystem-1080 and 1090 (but not the 1091 and 1095) are in 6' cabinets. Two of the cabinets are 23" racks, and one (the front end) is 19". Article 3926 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:47:32 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 984804455 32604 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: martell In-Reply-To: Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3926 On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Don Chiasson wrote: > Again, for 20's, they ran on three phase 208 volts, slightly non > standard. I assume that you mean "slightly non-standard" with respect to single phase "220 volt" power (which can be 220-240 volts). "220 volt" power involves two "hot" 110-120 volt (with respect to neutral) wires, at an 180 degree AC phase difference from each other, instead of a "hot" and a neutral. 208 volts is, of course, perfectly standard for three-phase, which has three "hot" 110-120 volt (with respect to neutral) wires at a 120 degree AC phase difference from each other. A "208 volt" peripheral is one which expects to use two wires of a three-phase power source, but is not three-phase. It will work on a "220 volt" power source, but the excessively hot voltage will presently fry the power supply unless it's of relatively modern manufacture. There are instructions in the RM05 service manual for how to rewire the power supply to 220-240V. I don't know if it's possible for TU77s or TU78s. The RP06 is an actual three-phase device. Not that anyone with any sense would actually use one, but if there is, I have a working RP06 drive free to anyone who will come and haul it out of my garage. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 3934 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 16 Mar 2001 22:18:00 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 22:20:59 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.voicenet.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3934 Mark Crispin writes: > The RP06 is an actual three-phase device. Not that anyone with any sense > would actually use one, but if there is, I have a working RP06 drive free > to anyone who will come and haul it out of my garage. I used to think so too, and someone here corrected me. Sure enough, a look at the prints reveals that it actually only uses two phases out of the three. The power chained to a second attached drive uses a different pair, i.e., if the main drive uses phases A and B, the second drive uses A and C (or B and C). Also, the power section of the maintenance manual reveals that the drive will work on 220-240V rather than 208V, with no change. In summary, it should be easy to wire up an RP06 to run on a single-phase 240V circuit, as is commonly found in US residences for electric ranges and clothes dryers. Article 3939 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KL questions References: From: Paul Repacholi Date: 17 Mar 2001 18:03:01 +0800 Message-ID: <87d7bg7lwq.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.61.201.210 X-Trace: 17 Mar 2001 20:41:03 +0800, 202.61.201.210 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3939 Eric Smith writes: > Mark Crispin writes: > > The RP06 is an actual three-phase device. Not that anyone with > > any sense would actually use one, but if there is, I have a > > working RP06 drive free to anyone who will come and haul it out of > > my garage. > I used to think so too, and someone here corrected me. Sure enough, > a look at the prints reveals that it actually only uses two phases > out of the three. The power chained to a second attached drive uses > a different pair, i.e., if the main drive uses phases A and B, the > second drive uses A and C (or B and C). I was sure it was a 3 phase motor, plus a fair lump extra for the electronics from one phase. RP07s are seriously 3 phase. Like about 70A/ph start current! Time to brave the Styx on go looking for the 667 manual. And the PR07 one. Ah Sperry 8470 service manual. No sign of the 667 one yet... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. Article 3942 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.voicenet.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RP05/6 power requirements (was KL Questions) Date: 17 Mar 2001 12:27:15 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9906pj$tg$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3942 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: > >The RP06 is an actual three-phase device. Not that anyone with any sense >would actually use one, but if there is, I have a working RP06 drive free >to anyone who will come and haul it out of my garage. > >-- Mark -- Actually, the RP05/6 and DCL are using two real phases. RP04's were three phases. The third phase was included to allow daisy chaining two RP06 together with one power lead and a special RP06->RP06 cable (which I've done ONCE at DEC Field Service) in cases where there were less than the needed number of connections under the floor. Two phases were used by each drive -- the RP06 used a two phase motor which would not have the propensity to spin backwards like the RP04 when plugged in to a three phase outlet wired by the site electricians. --Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" Article 5054 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: NIA20 ethernet interface (Re: RH20 Interface Status) References: X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 07 Jun 2001 11:15:08 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 7 Jun 2001 11:33:14 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5054 Timothy Stark writes: > Also, I found out that KLNI device. (KNI - device code 564) Hmmm. > it is micro-procesor for network interface! Does anyone have KLNI > specifications? Check KNISER.MAC and KNIPRM.MAC in TOPS-10 7.03. As sold, it is called an NIA20. It's an Ethernet interface that replaces two RH20s (numbers 4 and 5, IIRC). The CI20 interface also replaces two RH20s (numbers 6 and 7, IIRC). > It uses IPA20 interface (is reserved for 564 (KNI) and 574 (CI). Sounds like they are using "IPA20" as a name for the three-module set that goes in the RH20 backplane (M3001, M3002, M3003). In an NIA20, this connects to a box containing an LI0072. In a CI20, it connects to a box containing multiple modules, and I don't recall the module IDs. Maybe "IPA" stands for Intelligent Peripheral Adapter or some such. It has a bit-slice processor into which the KL must load microcode. Article 6424 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Price of maintenance on the PDPs Date: 22 Oct 2001 15:50:52 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 13 Sender: alderson+news@panix1.panix.com Message-ID: References: <9r0s8d$qr6$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1003780253 2224 166.84.1.1 (22 Oct 2001 19:50:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2001 19:50:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6424 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > The other day somebody asked me how much it cost to have DEC do maintenance. > I had no idea. What did we charge? Was it split up into hardware and > software? Was it a percentage of the cost of hardware? The last figure I knew was $40,000/year for the KL ($20,000/year educational discount)--the price was lowered just after we had sent in our $120,000 for 3 systems at LOTS, so we got two years' support for that payment. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article: 19881 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!dfw-peer!news.verio.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: How common is the TOAD-1? Date: 20 May 2003 21:33:10 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 21 Sender: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1053480790 23929 166.84.1.5 (21 May 2003 01:33:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 01:33:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:19881 Mark Crispin writes: > On Tue, 20 May 2003, David Evans wrote: >> Anybody know how many TOAD-1s are out there? Are they thick on the ground >> or almost rare? > I only know of two TOAD-1 machines outside of XKL. XKL has two TOAD-1 > machines on the Internet that I know of (one only accepts SMTP > connections though), and a handful of others. Double the outside sales number. Only one at XKL was outside the firewall when I left. > I suspect that fewer than a dozen were built. There were more than a dozen in use internally when I left. -- Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article: 21060 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!budd From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECtape on -10's Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 19 Jul 2003 15:33:28 GMT Organization: Boston University Computer Science Dept. Lines: 89 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 1058628808 13427 128.197.12.3 (19 Jul 2003 15:33:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:21060 In article , wrote: >In article , budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) wrote: >>home% grep ^102 ~ftp/pub/pdp10/bucs20-anon/decapr/decapr.txt.4 >>1025 TOPS-20 DEC H/W Eng DEC, Marlboro KL10 >>1026 TOPS-10 Development DEC, Marlboro KL1099 >Nitpick. #1042 was the second highboy in that SMP system. My search above only displayed serials 102x. The list I have contains over 30 KL systems with serials below 1100. >When we ran 3 CPUs, we added a KL1091 which was serial number 2nnn >[whoosh] those last three numbers just fell on my bit floor..2471? 2476 I thought it was also the ARPAnet TOPS-20 development system as well, but recently someone here with a knowledge of where the various cards and options were installed said they doubted that a 1091 could have BOTH an external memory controller (DMA20) *AND* a KI10 I/O bus adaptor (DIA20) which would have been required to talk to the IMP interface... >>1029 TOPS-20 DEC H/W Eng DEC, Marlboro KL10 >> >>I do remember hearing one had DECtapes. > >Both should have. Diagnostics were developed on them, too. Do you mean PDP-10 I/O bus (TD10) connected DECtapes? Of _course_ they had them on their front ends! Anything with a serial number below 2100 (or so) was manufactured as a 1090 (or 1080), in bright blue "high boy" (rack height) cabinets, with "external" core memory that had multiple ports, and could be used for SMP. The higher range were either 2040/2050/2060's (orange) or 1091's (a paler blue), in "corporate" (VAX height) cabinets, with "internal" semiconductor (MOS DRAM) memory. 2065's (and 1095) were manufactured in the FCC RFI safe boxes (designed for Jupiter) were any of the FCC cabinets blue?? Here is a complete list of all the 10's at DEC Marlboro in the 80's; 514 TOPS-10 Development DEC, Marlboro KI10 546 TOPS-10 Development DEC, Marlboro KI10 1025 TOPS-20 DEC H/W Eng DEC, Marlboro KL10 1026 TOPS-10 Development DEC, Marlboro KL1099 SMP 1029 TOPS-20 DEC H/W Eng DEC, Marlboro KL10 1030 TOPS-20 Hard Dev DEC, Marlboro KL10 1031 TOPS-20 Hard Dev DEC, Marlboro KL10 1042 TOPS-10 Development DEC, Marlboro KL10 SMP 2102 TOPS-20 Soft Dev DEC, Marlboro KL20 2116 TOPS-20 Soft Dev DEC, Marlboro KL20 2136 TOPS-20 Soft Dev DEC, Marlboro KL20 2137 TOPS-20 Soft Dev DEC, Marlboro KL20 2244 TOPS-20 Marketing DEC, Marlboro KL20 2263 TOPS-20 Diag. Eng. DEC, Marlboro KL20? 2476 TOPS-10 Digital Eq. Corporation Marlboro, MA KL10 2530 TOPS-20 DEC H/W Eng Marlboro, Ma KL10 2791 TOPS-20 Digital "EMILY" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2798 TOPS-20 Digital "ETHER" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2844 TOPS-20 Digital "ESTA" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2866 TOPS-20 Digital "CLOYD" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2871 TOPS-20 Digital "GIDNEY" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2906 TOPS-20 Digital "IBOX" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2933 TOPS-20 Digital "SAGE" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2942 10/20 Digital "CHIP" Marlborough, Ma 1091 2943 10/20 Digital "DALE" Marlborough, Ma 2060 2996 TOPS-20 Digital "RONCO" Marlborough, Ma 2060 3026 TOPS-20 Digital "SNAP" Marlborough, Ma 2060 3500 TOPS-10 Development/SIRUS DEC, Marlboro KL1095 4097 TOPS-20 Development DEC, Marlboro KS2020 4101 TOPS-10 Development DEC, Marlboro KS2020 4145 TOPS-10 DEC CSSE DEC Marlboro KS10 I remember the Venus (8600) project had some 2060's they used for development (wrote code to handle net lists in extended addressing FORTRAN), but they don't seem to appear on the list (it's possible they were absorbed by 36-bit engineering, and DO appear). The Jupiter microcode people had a system "IO - One of Jupiters Moons" -- I suppose that could have been #2530... On the topic of low serial number KL's, here are two other famous systems: 1038 ITS Macsyma Consort MIT, Cambridge KL10 1075 SAIL SAIL Stanford, CA KL10 Article: 21050 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!image.surnet.ru!WWW1.relcom.ru!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson-NOSPAM@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECtape on -10's Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:16:11 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:21050 There is an image of a PDP10 with DECtapes at: http://starfish.rcsri.org/rcs/DECsystem/1090/hybrid.jpg This machine was originally a KA10 and eventually turned into a KL10 1090. Most of the original KA10 peripherals were used on the KL10, including the DECtapes. In article , news@alderson.users.panix.com says... > >Just a question for curiosity's sake: Was the DT10 interface an available >option on KL-based systems, or only on KA- and KI-based systems? Was it rare >on KIs, even? > >-- >Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com > "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article: 21065 of alt.sys.pdp10 Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECtape on -10's References: Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 20 Jul 2003 00:15:07 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 20 Jul 2003 00:31:21 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:21065 budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) writes: > I thought it was also the ARPAnet TOPS-20 development system as well, > but recently someone here with a knowledge of where the various cards > and options were installed said they doubted that a 1091 could have > BOTH an external memory controller (DMA20) *AND* a KI10 I/O bus > adaptor (DIA20) which would have been required to talk to the IMP > interface... The 1091 I/O bay backplane probably doesn't have any slots for the DMA20, since internal memory was standard on those. It should have room for a DIA20 (or DIB20?) KI10 I/O bus adapter. Article: 21085 of alt.sys.pdp10 Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DIA vs DIB? References: <87k7adjibr.fsf_-_@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 21 Jul 2003 13:25:11 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 21 Jul 2003 13:41:43 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:21085 Paul Repacholi writes: > OK, what is the difference between a DIA and a DIB? As I understand it, just the backplane. The functionality is identical. This is what I've pieced together from various documentation, so it could be wrong; I haven't found any really definitive reference. In the I/O bay of the processor, the 1080 and 1090 have a backplane that has room for the DMA20 memory bus interface (only needed with external memory such as the DEC M[ABDEFGH]10 core memory or Ampex ARM10 semiconductor memory) and a DIA20, both of which are standard. The 1091, 1095, 2060, and 2065 instead have mounting space for a backplane that only has room for the I/O adapter, which is optional (possibly standard on the 1091 and 1095, the documents are inconsistent). The I/O adapter with backplane is called a DIB20. Article: 21340 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Reply-To: "Cray Guy" From: "Cray Guy" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Looking for 2060/2065 owners specifically PDP10 KL10E Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:08:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.93.99.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1061838512 65.93.99.102 (Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:08:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:08:32 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:21340 Other than the machines listed here, does anyone have a more complete list of KL10-x owners? I'm especially looking for other 2060/2065 owners. Paul Allen's machines would-be museum machines don't appear to be listed here;) http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:nWs-NFCOMZcJ:starfish.rcsri.org/rcs/DECsystem/FAQ/Serial_Number_Master.pdf+kl10e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Regards, Heinz Article: 21341 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson-NOSPAM@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Looking for 2060/2065 owners specifically PDP10 KL10E Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:20:49 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:21341 I have found most KL10 collectors to be very private. I have sent many emails asking for information on collector's machines and have received only a few replys. I would appreciate any help that you can provide to improve the list. In article , crayguy@sympatico.ca says... > >Other than the machines listed here, does anyone have a more complete >list of KL10-x owners? I'm especially looking for other 2060/2065 owners. >Paul Allen's machines would-be museum machines don't appear to be listed >here;) >http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:nWs-NFCOMZcJ:starfish.rcsri.org/rcs/DECs ystem/FAQ/Serial_Number_Master.pdf+kl10e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 > >Regards, >Heinz > >