Article 4198 of alt.sys.pdp10: From: abaddon@ibm.net (Michael Ross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A -10/-20 in your house Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:15:05 GMT Message-ID: <3622818d.261510380@news1.ibm.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.92.192.241 X-Trace: 8 Oct 1998 09:15:05 GMT, 139.92.192.241 Organization: IBM.NET Lines: 24 X-Notice: Items posted that violate the IBM.NET Acceptable Use Policy X-Notice: should be reported to postmaster@ibm.net X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ibm.net Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsm2.ibm.net!ibm.net!news1.ibm.net!139.92.192.241 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4198 On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 17:08:06 -0700, lgreenwa@cts.com (Lawrence H Greenwald) wrote: >A while ago, some people were trying to save what may have been working >DEC-10/DEC-20 boxes that were about to go away. Some proposed to take it >their homes and get them up and running there. > >Did anybody ever get a system up and running at their home? Is it up now? >What kind of problems did you run into trying to get it to run, if you >ever did get it to run? > Well, I have a complete 2020 which is theoretically operational, but I can't boot from distribution tape. Console commands work ok! It's over a year since I spent any time on it, at some point I'll get back into it and perhaps ask for advice here. I also have a partial KL, the CPU and console (11/40) - I also had the I/O box, but it was lost, along with another 2020, when the site I was storing them on was cleared without anyone telling me! Mike Rangers Catering Corps - 'We boil for the One, we fry for the One' Article 4199 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!news.voicenet.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A -10/-20 in your house Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 02:47:07 -0700 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 907840033 22792 (None) 140.142.17.40 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dlg To: Lawrence H Greenwald In-Reply-To: Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4199 On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Lawrence H Greenwald wrote: > Did anybody ever get a system up and running at their home? I have had running 2020s at home since 1985. I have my original machine (s/n 4664, possibly the highest serial number assigned on 2020s?) plus the old SUMEX 2020 in running condition. One TU45 isn't working, and the LP05 didn't survive my move so got retired. But what I have is two 2020 systems, each with its own TU45, each dual ported to two RM03s and two RM05 disks. My best advice is; it is not for the faint of heart. -- Mark -- * RCW 19.149 notice: This email address is located in Washington State. * * Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message. * Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 4710 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!206.55.3.15!news.clark.net!not-for-mail From: cz@alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: AI.AI.MIT.EDU is coming back online Date: 23 Feb 1999 01:49:07 GMT Organization: IEEE Computer Society Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: <7at1ej$ioj$1@callisto.clark.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: alembic.crystel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.8 Beta(n) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4710 Ok. As they say: To everything, there is a time.... I just got the new power lines run into my spare bedroom//computer room. Two 20amp 120 volt circuits, and a 20amp 240 volt circuit. Enough power to fire up my 2020 (AI), a pair of RM03's, an RM80 (totally unformatted) and a TU77 (condition: Odd) Now, a question: When I try to boot off the TU77, I get a console error. Checking the Massbus registers, it appears that the 20 is setting an "Invalid density value" in the drive density CSR. Odd thing is I can't clear the error by poking INIT commands into CSR1. Does the 20 support the TU77 as a boot device, or am I going to have to roll a TU45 in here to get things up. Also does anyone have any diagnostics on RM03 packs (or even better, TOPS20)? I ate one of my T20 packs in a head crash a few years ago. Speaking of which: The pack failed as follows: Years ago I tried to clean the heads on an RM03 with 97% isopropyl alcohol and lintless swabs. Bad idea; just touching the heads must have screwed the flying geometry. When I put the pack in, and fired the drive up, the heads marched out and promptly gouged scores into the media. Didn't do any seeks, just plugged the outside track. Would it be suicide to put this pack into another RM03? Anyplace left out there that might be able to recondition a pack? Or was the outside track track zero? Thanks Chris Zach (PS: Once the TU77 is running, ITS goes up) -- Time to take time For Spring will turn to Fall In just no time at all... Article 4711 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!206.55.3.15!news.clark.net!not-for-mail From: cz@alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: AI.AI.MIT.EDU is coming back online Date: 23 Feb 1999 04:24:03 GMT Organization: IEEE Computer Society Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <7atah3$3m$1@clarknet.clark.net> References: <7at1ej$ioj$1@callisto.clark.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: alembic.crystel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.8 Beta(n) Cc: cz@alembic.crystel.com Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4711 > Now, a question: When I try to boot off the TU77, I get a console error. > Checking the Massbus registers, it appears that the 20 is setting an "Invalid > density value" in the drive density CSR. Odd thing is I can't clear the error > by poking INIT commands into CSR1. > Checking the books, I found that this error (Invalid Density) can be caused by a microcode failure in the 8915 bit fiddler board (the formatter on 18 bit TU77's). Now, the questions: Is it possible to find a new 8915-YA board? The one that I have will sometimes light it's red LED upon fireup. The light goes out in about 30 seconds. Other times it flickers upon power up, and that's all. Is it possible that the problem is in the 8905-YB Maint register? According to the basic block diagram, these two are linked at the hip somehow. I suppose I could pull the 8915 out of my TU45 (deep in storage) however I don't know if that's a YA, and if not, it won't work in a 125IPS tape drive (like the 77). And no, I don't want to try and fix the 45; it's a pneumatic nightmare... Or I could try swapping in a 8906 and see if I can get the drive to do anything. 8906's are a dime a dozen; are there any backplane changes between the TM03 16 bits and the TM03 18 bits? Any help appreciated. Getting this drive up is crucial. Chris Article 4739 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!peer.news.verio.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!world!mbg From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: KS10 knowledge needed Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:24:50 GMT Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 27 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4739 It appears that I have a chance at getting a decsystem-10 of my own... what is available is a KS10, with TM03 tape, TU77 tape and RP06 disks... oh yeah, it also has a DZ11 and a UBA... Is the KS10 cabinet a single rack or more than one? Would there be other racks for the tape and disk controllers? It's been a long time since I last even saw a -10, so I need to know dimensions of the above devices... Finally, if anyone is interested in helping dismantle this machine, please contact me off-line... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ Article 4740 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 18:14:09 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 43 Message-ID: <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 5 Apr 1999 22:14:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4740 Megan wrote: > > Is the KS10 cabinet a single rack or more than one? Would > there be other racks for the tape and disk controllers? The KS-10 itself is a single cabinet about three feet on a side and standing 4 or 5 feet tall. More or less. This includes the controllers but none of the peripherals, especially disk. Did the KS-10 support any disks _other_ than Massbuss-based ones (e.g. RP06)? > It's been a long time since I last even saw a -10, so I > need to know dimensions of the above devices... RP devices (with the attached DCL - Device Control Logic - "side- pack") were typically about two and a half feet wide and about three feet deep. If I recall correctly, they require three-phase power (or a good fake thereof) for operation. > Finally, if anyone is interested in helping dismantle this > machine, please contact me off-line... I have it on good authority that you'll not need to disassemble it if all you have is the processor -- two of them fit in the back of a Plymouth Voyager minivan. One belongs to a fellow at the RCS/RI; the other one is mine, and is currently in his care. Disks seem to be the bugaboo with these machines. If a substitute for the large/heavy/power-hungry/hard-to-maintain/etc disks could be found a KS would most likely make a wonderful little system. (I remember RP-series drives, especially the RP04, with loathing from my first job.) TOPS-10 anyone? -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ Article 4743 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!usenet From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 22:05:32 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 25 Message-ID: <370933AC.223C93C1@trailing-edge.com> References: <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: trailing-edge.wdn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4743 Carl R. Friend wrote: > > Megan wrote: > > It's been a long time since I last even saw a -10, so I > > need to know dimensions of the above devices... > > RP devices (with the attached DCL - Device Control Logic - "side- > pack") were typically about two and a half feet wide and about three > feet deep. Official spec is 40"H x 31"W x 32"D, 600 lbs. For comparison, washing machines are about the same size, but have a density so much lighter they may as well be styrofoam rocks you find falling on red shirts in old episodes of _Star Trek_. > If I recall correctly, they require three-phase power (or > a good fake thereof) for operation. You can, indeed, run two of them from one 120V 30A circuit with a three-phase converter on it, as long as you're careful about not spinning them both up at the same time. See the rec.crafts.metalworking FAQ for some good references about the different varieties of three-phase converters available. Tim. Article 4742 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed References: <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <370964b9.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 5 Apr 1999 21:34:49 -0500 X-Trace: 5 Apr 1999 21:34:49 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 18 Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4742 In article <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: > Did the KS-10 support any disks _other_ than Massbuss-based ones >(e.g. RP06)? No, and officially it was only the RP06 and RM03 that were supported. RM80 worked fine though... > I have it on good authority that you'll not need to disassemble it >if all you have is the processor -- two of them fit in the back of a >Plymouth Voyager minivan. That was one of the fancy enormous newer Voyagers with the dual sliding doors though, the older ones can only hold one KS at a time. An open-top trailer is great because you can stand racks up. John Wilson D Bit Article 4741 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!master.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail From: abaddon@ibm.net (Michael Ross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 02:40:00 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <370a731b.244791437@news.erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: BatDXMlxjIQnZs/XvuPlVjCgy8x9ll9b7yZExdXXVVw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 1999 00:41:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4741 On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:24:50 GMT, mbg@world.std.com (Megan) wrote: > >It appears that I have a chance at getting a decsystem-10 of >my own... what is available is a KS10, with TM03 tape, TU77 >tape and RP06 disks... oh yeah, it also has a DZ11 and a >UBA... > >Is the KS10 cabinet a single rack or more than one? Would >there be other racks for the tape and disk controllers? > snip... pic on my webpage.. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Orchard/1200/default.html KS and all controllers 1 5' rack IIRC, TU77 1 full rack, the TM03 is IIRC the formatter/contoller fits in same rack (an 11/04 sized box) and the RP06 is a large washing machine. enjoy! If you need s/w or docs please get in touch. Mike Rangers Catering Corps - 'We boil for the One, we fry for the One' Article 4746 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.cwix.com!192.26.210.166!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!news.primate.wisc.edu!oanews!nntp!news From: "A. J. Corda" Subject: Needed: RM80 (for KS10 restoration project) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <370A49A8.41C6@nswc.navy.mil> Sender: news@relay.nswc.navy.mil (NNTP NEWS) Reply-To: acorda@geocities.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center - Dahlgren Div. Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:51:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; IRIX 5.2 IP22) Lines: 47 Xref: news3.best.com comp.sys.dec:49778 alt.sys.pdp10:4746 I've finally managed to partially satisfy my nostalgic obsession to resurrect a PDP-10. I just recently located a KS10, and, after a 480 mile mile trip in the back of my poor little pickup truck, it is now safely sitting in front of my garage (still in the truck... It will be _in_ the garage as soon as I can con a couple of my friends into giving me a hand. This is not a light load :-) The next thing I'm going to need is a Massbus drive (preferably, an RM80) If anyone has one of these that they would be willing to part with, please drop me an email note. I'm located in Virginia, but I'm willing to drive a reasonable distance to pick one of these critters up (the closer the better, of course :-) Shipping would be impractical. The other possibility is to build an adapter that I could stick in a PC which would emulate a Massbus device, but to do this, I'd need pretty complete specs on the Massbus (i.e. pinouts, timing, etc.) Does anyone happen to have this info? I've done a dejanews search, but nothing really useful turned up. If I can locate a partially complete RM80 (i.e. one with the Massbus to modified-SMD adapter still present and intact in the drive pedistal, then I might try to build an adapter to emulate the modified-SMD interface supported by the massbus adapter cardset. I suspect this might be a simpler emulation, but it would still require info on the modified-SMD interface supported by the RM80. If anyone has details on this interface, please let me know! BTW, I'm also on the lookout for TOPS-10 and/or TOPS-20 load tapes (or images thereof, or bits and pieces... whatever I can find that will get me closer to bringing this critter back to life! -Thanks in advance... -al -acorda@geocities.com Article 4748 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Needed: RM80 (for KS10 restoration project) References: <370A49A8.41C6@nswc.navy.mil> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <370ad1f8.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 6 Apr 1999 23:33:12 -0500 X-Trace: 6 Apr 1999 23:33:12 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Lines: 33 Xref: news3.best.com comp.sys.dec:49792 alt.sys.pdp10:4748 In article <370A49A8.41C6@nswc.navy.mil>, A. J. Corda wrote: >The next thing I'm going to need is a Massbus >drive (preferably, an RM80) If anyone has one of >these that they would be willing to part with, >please drop me an email note. I'm located in >Virginia, but I'm willing to drive a reasonable >distance to pick one of these critters up (the >closer the better, of course :-) Shipping would >be impractical. Actually it might not be 100% impossible, just a little expensive. I bought my first RM80 (the *working* one) from JT Computer Marketing in Texas, and IIRC the shipping (to upstate NY) was something like $200. Which of course is a whole lot but less than half what it cost to drive to Houston for the KSes themselves. >I suspect this might >be a simpler emulation, but it would still >require info on the modified-SMD interface >supported by the RM80. If anyone has details >on this interface, please let me know! I've got pinouts for both DEC SMD (for a while) and Massbus (as of just now) on my FTP/HTTP site. No timing diagrams of course, so it's not all that useful, slightly better than nothing though. http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp10/info/massbus.txt http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp10/info/smd.dec or: ftp://ftp.... John Wilson D Bit Article 4747 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!peer.news.verio.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in4.uu.net!world!mbg From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: Several KS10s becoming available in Massachussetts Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:35:53 GMT Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 52 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4747 [Already sent to the classic computer collectors mailing list] Just wanted to let eveyone know that I have been contacted by someone who works for a company where they have three (3) KS10s. One of the machines is *CURRENTLY OPERATIONAL*. One was shut down several months ago, and the person who wrote to me doesn't know about the third. There are nine (9) RP06 disk drives distributed between the three systems, two additional ones are broken. Two tape drives are on line (with problems) and one is broken (one TM03 and two TU77s). The computers are in a room without a raised floor, so the cables are simply laying around. The terms are that we (whoever) takes the equipment must do so at their own cost, and must take everything, including cables and non-working units. Dismantling can start April 21st, removal has to be by April 27th. No later than this. The KS10s take up about 6sqft of floor space each, and are about 600 lbs., the RP06s apparently take up about 7-9 sqft and I don't know how much they weight. I don't know about the tape drives. Someone told me it may be between 6000 and 8000 lbs all together... Systems are located in Cambridge, Massachussetts. We need to give an answer by April 13th at the latest. I suspect that if it isn't saved, it will go to the scrapheap, landfill, crusher, . So, is anyone game? Please contact me off-list. I'll *try* to coordinate this. This is a chance to handle some *REAL IRON*... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ Article 4749 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed Date: 7 Apr 1999 12:24:33 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7egbdh$grf$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com> Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 923513079 202 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4749 In article , Sarr J. Blumson wrote: >In article <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com>, >Carl R. Friend wrote: >> >> TOPS-10 anyone? > >My recollection is that running TOPS-10 on a KS10 required some non standard >microcode, and maybe some hardware hacks as well; I know that they passed >through System Concepts on the way to becoming "ADP OnSites". DEC turned that into a fully supported product. The microcode is not nonstandard, it is merely "KS-10 microcode with KI-style paging" instead of "KS-10 microcode with KL-style paging". There are no hardware hacks at all. The boot tape (1600 bpi, 1/2-inch) has the KS-10 microcode for TOPS-10 and SYSTEM.EXE for KS. On the same tape you would usually have BACKUP.EXE and then the full-save of DSKB. After reformatting the system RP06, we would restore [1,*] from the boot tape, then get the most recent all-files save to restore the rest of the UFDs. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 4750 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed References: <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com> <7egbdh$grf$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <370c1022.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 7 Apr 1999 22:10:42 -0500 X-Trace: 7 Apr 1999 22:10:42 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Lines: 20 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4750 In article <7egbdh$grf$1@shell3.ba.best.com>, Joe Smith wrote: >In article , >Sarr J. Blumson wrote: >>My recollection is that running TOPS-10 on a KS10 required some non standard >>microcode, and maybe some hardware hacks as well; I know that they passed >>through System Concepts on the way to becoming "ADP OnSites". > >DEC turned that into a fully supported product. The microcode is not >nonstandard, it is merely "KS-10 microcode with KI-style paging" instead of >"KS-10 microcode with KL-style paging". There are no hardware hacks at all. Nitpick: it appears that ADP wasn't shy at all about making hardware hacks on their OnSite KS10s (mine all have hacked CSL boards with special firmware, and they substituted a different tape controller, plus I have what appears to be a totally custom memory controller built by SC which I believe was for the OnSites, 1024KW memory addressing or something). But those don't have anything to do with the ability to run TOPS-10. John Wilson D Bit Article 4753 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 knowledge needed Date: 11 Apr 1999 13:52:28 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7eq9es$lvs$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com> <7eq0ti$qkn$1@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf1-023.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4753 In article <7eq0ti$qkn$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >In article , > sarr@qix.rs.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) wrote: >>In article <370935B1.53AF4459@stoneweb.com>, >>Carl R. Friend wrote: >>> >>> TOPS-10 anyone? >> >>My recollection is that running TOPS-10 on a KS10 required some non >standard >>microcode, and maybe some hardware hacks as well; I know that they passed >>through System Concepts on the way to becoming "ADP OnSites". >> >Phooey. TOPS-10 ran just fine. We supported it from the beginning >of its questionable life. As the person who ported TOPS-10 to the KS, and an ADP employee at the time, let me state that 1) Barb is correct, there were no special hacks required to run TOPS-10 on the KS, and 2) they did NOT pass through SC on their way to becoming ADP/Onsites. As a "late life kicker" we contracted SC to do some hardware mods so that we could offer SMP Onsites. This project was code named "SuperSite", and wasn't a screaming success. -- jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Things have gotten so bad I feel the need to disguise my email address. And I don't like this explanation because I just hate long signatures. Article 4796 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in2.uu.net!world!mbg From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: Re: The Computer Museum did WHAT???? [was Re: YKYBHTLW] Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:38:18 GMT References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.far Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 33 Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:128776 alt.sys.pdp10:4796 alderson@netcom.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes: >In article <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> "Alan H. Martin" > writes: >>When the Computer Museum was selling off PDP-6 boards at the MR cafeteria >>garage sale >My blood pressure just went through the roof. Please, tell me you were joking! Well, that won't be the fate of the three KS10s a team of people worked at moving today... a company in cambridge was getting rid of them, and if we hadn't come along, they would have ended up as landfill or in a crusher... From what I understand, they were the last decsystem-10s in commercial use in the new england region. One is finding a new home in New Hampshire... the other two will be at the Rhode Island Computer Museum... we'll be unloading the trucks tomorrow. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ Article 4813 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in2.uu.net!world!mbg From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: Re: The Computer Museum did WHAT???? [was Re: YKYBHTLW] Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:26:30 GMT References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.far <7futjl$um6$1@antiochus.ultra.net> Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 28 Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:128822 alt.sys.pdp10:4813 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >Megan, where is the R.I. museum? I have to admit that I don't know what city/town it is in... I followed someone's badly hand-drawn map to it today, but it took me 2.5+ hours from Framingham to find it. It only took me 73 minutes to return. I plan on returning in the near future to help setup the machines. It may be awhile before they have the three-phase that the RP06s require, but we can at least power up the system box and see if the console works. I have listings of the KS uCode (Version 101) and the KS10 console code (with ADP modifications) as well as a KS10 printset (for KS10A and KS10B -- what is the difference?). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ Article 4848 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Re: PDP-6 Date: 27 Apr 1999 02:00:55 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7g3uc7$4ft$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <37200ACD.896E0BCE@watson.ibm.com> <3721f08d.0@news.wizvax.net> <7futp4$um6$2@antiochus.ultra.net> Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 925203660 238 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4848 In article , Sam Weiner wrote: >The ability for most software (both user and system) to run unchanged >on most models was a great feature but even FORTRAN programs if they >used extended addressing would not run on the KS. Well, FORTRAN programs that used extended addressing would not run on the KL. Single-section KLs, that is. A KS was very much like a single-section KL, and there were a lot of single-section KLs out there. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 4885 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: [cz@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Christopher R. Zach)] RH11's and SMD Disks Date: 29 Apr 1999 17:11:23 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7gasfb$3qa$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <871zh3z08g.fsf@valhalla.seastrom.com> <3728A248.563A870D@trailing-edge.com> Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 925431090 215 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com vmsnet.pdp-11:8431 alt.sys.pdp10:4885 > >The disk controller in the KS10 is not an RH10/RH20; it's an RH11 > >(RH11C to be exact if my memory is not faulty) with a couple of extra > >bits. It uses the parity or somesuch. > > The RH11-C is a bit different than the RH11, but not in having extra support > for 18 bits per se. What the RH11-C appears to be is a straight RH11 that is > jumpered for massive (like 32 words at a shot) Hog mode DMA. Just to make things clear, both quotes are right. The RH11-C differed from the vanilla RH11 in two respects: 1) It used the parity lines as data lines in order to read and write 18-bit quantities instead of 16-bit quantities. 2) It was jumpered to hog the bus for 16 memory cycles (32 halfwords). There is a paragraph on page A-1 of the KS10-BASED DECSYSTEM-2020 TECHNICAL MANUAL that says: An NPR device cannot hog the bus for more than two memory cycles unless it is the only device connected to a UBA. (The RH11 disk controller in the standard 2020 configuration is jumpered to hog the bus for 16 memory cycles, however, it has a dedicated UBA.) In addition to hog mode (as set by jumper on the RH11), the UBA had to be programmed to operate in Fast Mode. Only one UBA at a time could be run in Fast Mode, and that was the UBA that served the RH11-C disk interface. Fast Mode write to memory: even word: accept 18-bit word from devices, store in buffer on UBA. odd word: combine new 18-bit word with previous, write 36 bits to mem. Fast Mode read from memory: even word: fetch 36 bit from memory, deliver 18 bit, keep other 18 in UBA. odd word: take 18-bit word from UBA buffer, deliver to device. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 4895 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: [cz@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Christopher R. Zach)] RH11's and SMD Disks References: <871zh3z08g.fsf@valhalla.seastrom.com> <3728A248.563A870D@trailing-edge.com> <7gasfb$3qa$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <3729c48f.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 30 Apr 1999 10:56:15 -0500 X-Trace: 30 Apr 1999 10:56:15 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 16 Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com vmsnet.pdp-11:8438 alt.sys.pdp10:4895 In article <7gasfb$3qa$1@shell3.ba.best.com>, Joe Smith wrote: >Just to make things clear, both quotes are right. The RH11-C differed >from the vanilla RH11 in two respects: > >1) It used the parity lines as data lines in order to read and write > 18-bit quantities instead of 16-bit quantities. Nitpick: looking at the RH11AB prints, it appears that it too had 18-bit data paths (I think using PA/PB just like the RH11C). Anyway I agree that the M7294-M7294YA substitution appears to be the only (non-jumper) difference between the AB and the C. The other boards seem to all be vanilla... John Wilson D Bit Article 5111 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Re(12): Living legends Date: 15 May 1999 15:01:20 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7hk280$ju5$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <373866b7.703033408@news.supernews.com> <7hbsf3$b7t$10@antiochus.ultra.net> <3739aa93.74960537@news.supernews.com> <7hef4n$eic$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <373b217a.170935392@news.supernews.com> <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf8-034.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.folklore.computers:130261 alt.sys.pdp10:5111 In article <7hh2ic$qqn$4@antiochus.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >It was an age-old tradition in TOPS10 (remember that >we shipped the sources to our customers) that the original >author of the source could put his/her full name in the >TITLE statement. After that, in the SUBTTL statement, anybody >who modified the source put their initials to document an edit >trace. So, it was not unusual for customers to see a long >string of /XXX/YYY/ZZZ. Some people yearned to have their >initials in that line and others played the game of trying >to guess who's who. Just about everything that I've done >at DEC since I started working there was indicated with >my initials. It's a long time habit. Not quite everyone yearned to have their initials in that SUBTTL line. Very few of the sources I mucked about in got a "/JE" appended. I figured it was just another way customers could find out who to pester about their favorite bugs/dreams. When I had left DEC and came back as an ADP employee to port TOPS-10 to the KS10, I put my initials in every module I touched. I figured as an ADP employee I was safe from the entreaties of DEC customers, so I'd make up for all those years of hiding my identity. Unfortunately, when the KS10 line of development was SOUPed back into the mainstream development sources (perhaps by you, Barb?) the person who resolved the conflicts didn't chose to preserve my initials. Sigh! ;-) -- jeverett(at)wwa(dot)com (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 6191 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 Unibus Map From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Organization: Everett Associates X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Distribution: world References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 21 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:13:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.73.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 944323992 157.238.73.229 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:13:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:13:12 GMT Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6191 In article , pat@transarc.com says... > >Yes, I am following up to my own message ... > >I've located a copy of the KS10 Hardware Reference, which has actually >answered most of the questions I've asked here over the past couple of >weeks (yay!). > >I'm still looking, though, for a reasonably detailed reference for the >RH11 Massbus adapter - there is an abbreviated description in the KS10 >Hardware Reference, but even between that and code examples I have, I >don't know that it's enough info to program against. I've just emailed Pat offering to help, since I wrote the MBA/RH11/RM03-RP06 code for TOPS-10. As I said in my email to him, it might help if I had access to a set of CREF listings of the monitor. Are they available anywhere still?? -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 6192 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 Unibus Map References: Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <384999a7_2@news.wizvax.net> Date: 4 Dec 1999 17:45:59 -0500 X-Trace: 4 Dec 1999 17:45:59 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 189 XPident: wilson XPident: Unknown Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6192 In article , Pat Barron wrote: >I'm still looking, though, for a reasonably detailed reference for the >RH11 Massbus adapter - there is an abbreviated description in the KS10 >Hardware Reference, but even between that and code examples I have, I >don't know that it's enough info to program against. There's not much to the RH11 itself, since most of the time its job is just to pass register accesses through to the selected drive (naturally the address bits go through a ROM so the device registers come out in somewhat scrambled order). The only description I found of an RH that wasn't full of inaccuracies is the one in the PDP-11/70 Processor Handbook (which of course is actually for the RH70, but from a software point of view the only difference there is the extra BAE register and the fact that DMA is direct to memory and doesn't go through the Unibus map). The most annoying thing I ran into (in doing the RH11/RH70 emulation in E11) was in the fact that the interrupt behavior isn't documented correctly, I had to go to the prints to understand it. I'm not sure they did what they did on purpose, since it acts differently from almost all other PDP-11 peripherals. I might as well just clip out the comment block from E11's CS1 handler since it explains what I figured out: ;+ ; ; CS1 776700/772440 Massbus reg 00 ; ; 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 1 0 ; +--+---+----+-+---+----+-----+---+--+-----+--+ ; |SC|TRE|MCPE|X|DVA|PSEL| BAE |RDY|IE| FUN |GO| ; +--+---+----+-+---+----+-----+---+--+-----+--+ ; ; SC RO Special condition (OR of TRE, MCP, or ATA), causes int if IE ; and RDY are both also set. ; TRE RCL Transfer error (set by leading edge on OR of DLT, UPE, NXD/NXF, ; NXM, PGE, MSX, MDP). Writing 1 clears all RH errors (TRE, MCP, ; bits 8-15 of RHCS2), as does writing a data xfr cmd (5X, 6X, ; 7X) and GO to RHCS1, or writing 1 to CCLR. ; MCPE RO Massbus control bus parity error (while reading drive reg). ; X* RO Not used, but comes from drive (0 in practice). ; DVA* RO Drive available, unit selected by CS2 exists and is powered on. ; (Dual-ported drives or single-port drives converted to dual- ; port by an RH01 can turn it off when not available, single-port ; drives have it wired high). ; PSEL RW* Port select (0=Unibus A, 1=Unibus B). RO while RDY clear. ; We have only one Unibus so this bit does nothing. ; BAE RW* Unibus address extension. Cleared by CCLR. ; *Locked against writes when RDY=0. ; RDY RO Ready for next data transfer cmd, causes int if IE=1. ; or, WO Causes immediate int if ones are written to both RDY and IE in ; the same xfr, but doesn't actually change RDY and causes no ; further action. ; IE RW Interrupt enable, cleared when int is acknowledged (really!). ; FUN* RW Function code, drive-specific. ; GO* RW Start function, cleared on completion. ; ; *X, DVA, FUN, and GO bits are in drive, others are in RH. ; ; If a DATOB writes only the high byte, no Massbus register access occurs. ; ; The RH only gets personally involved in data transfer commands, i.e. opcodes ; 5X (write checks), 6X (writes), and 7X (reads). Writing one of these clears ; RDY until it completes (I think this means when the drive drops OCC, the ; Massbus "data bus occupied" signal). Opcodes 0X-4X pass through the RH to ; the drive regardless of whether RDY is set (for overlapped seeks, rewinds, ; etc.). ; ; If a data transfer command is written to RHCS1 when RDY=0 already, PGE, TRE, ; and SC are set and the command is not written over the Massbus. ; ; The interrupts are a little odd. IE is the interrupt enable as usual, but it ; is automatically cleared each time the interrupt is acknowledged. The ; leading edge of RDY copies IE to the INTR (int request) flip flop, which is ; also set by writing ones to both RDY and IE in the same write (note that this ; doesn't really alter RDY though), while the AND of SC, RDY, and IE drives the ; INTR REQ line directly, bypassing the flip flop. Clearing IE doesn't clear ; the flip flop, but clearing SC will cancel a pending int if INTR wasn't also ; set. Unlike other devices, setting IE when RDY is already set does not cause ; an immediate int. How much of this behavior was actually intended? ; ;- regnam rh11, mbcs1: xor dx,dx ;reg 0 [...] Careful with the thing about writing ones to RDY and IE to force an interrupt; some of the documentation makes it sound like this writes to RDY, but it really is a read-only bit, this thing about writing ones is a special case (an AND gate checks out the data written but doesn't store RDY) for forcing an interrupt on an idle RH, RSTS uses it to auto-detect the RH vector and I'm sure other OSes do too. In E11 I chose to untangle the Massbus register numbers to get their real values so the code would be easily reusable in case I ever get around to doing a VAX-11/780 or KL10 emulator, where (unless I misunderstand) the registers aren't gratuitously moved around like in the RH11. I guess there's no need to do that in a KS emulator, but in case you care, here's the little chart I made for myself that shows the RH11 Unibus-CSR-to-Massbus-register relationships. BTW, the register select is 5 signals (pairs really) on the Massbus, I don't know of anything that uses more than 4 bits' worth (maybe the TU78?). comment _ ; ; Massbus registers: ; ; Register is located in: *=RH, ^=mixed, nothing=drive/formatter ; ; addr reg # name RMxx RP04/05/06/07 RS03/04 776700 00 CS1^ CSR #1 776702 -- WC* word count 776704 -- BA* bus addr 776706 05 DA desired addr 776710 -- CS2* CSR #2 776712 01 DS drive status 776714 02 ER1 err #1 ER (err reg) 776716 04 AS attn summary 776720 07 LA look ahead 776722 -- DB* maint data buf 776724 03 MR1 maint reg 1 MR (maint reg) MR (maint reg) 776726 06 DT drive type ;; RMxx/RPxx only: (not RS0x) 776730 10 SN serial # 776732 11 OF offset 776734 12 DC desired cyl 776736 13 HR maint hldg reg CC (current cyl) 776740 14 MR2 maint reg 2 ER2 (err #2) 776742 15 ER2 err #2 ER3 (err #3) 776744 16 EC1 ECC posn 776746 17 EC2 ECC pattern ;; end of disk-only stuff 776750 -- BAE* bus addr ext 776752 -- CS3* CSR #3 ; ; TU77: ; addr reg # reg # 772440 00 CS1^ CSR #1 772442 -- WC* word count 772444 -- BA* bus addr 772446 05 FC frame count 772450 -- CS2* CSR #2 772452 01 FS formatter status 772454 02 ER err reg 772456 04 AS attn summary 772460 07 CC check character 772462 -- DB* maint data buf 772464 03 MR maint reg 772466 06 DT drive type 772470 10 SN serial # 772472 11 TC tape control 772474 -- BAE* bus addr ext 772476 -- CS3* CSR #3 00 CS1 RW, action 01 DS/FS RO 02 ER/ER1 RO 03 MR/MR1 RW, action 04 AS RW, action 05 DA/FC RW, action (right?) 06 DT RO 07 LA/CC RO ;; tape and moving head disk only: 10 SN RO 11 OF/TC RW ;; disk only: 12 DC RW 13 HR/CC RO? 14 MR2/ER2 RW/RO 15 ER2/ER3 RO 16 EC1 RO 17 EC2 RO _ As I'm sure your documentation explains, the CS1 register is a mess because bits 12 and 5:0 are on the drive but the other bits are in the RH11. Other registers are either one or the other. BAE/CS3 are only on the RH70 so don't worry about them. Massbus has a 16-bit control bus and an 18-bit data bus, which are completely separate (no wonder the cable is so thick!), so while only one device can be doing a data transfer at any one time, drive register accesses to any device are possible any time so any other drive(s) can be doing non-data things (like spacing magtapes or seeking disks or whatever). The RDY bit in CS1 only has to do with the current data transfer command, other stuff is none of the RH's business, the drives report completion of non-data commands using ATTN. The TE16/TU45/TU77 in particular is unusually ATTN-happy... John Wilson D Bit Article 6194 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: FA: M8629 HUGE memory board for collector, from PDP-11 machine References: Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <38499ddf_1@news.wizvax.net> Date: 4 Dec 1999 18:03:59 -0500 X-Trace: 4 Dec 1999 18:03:59 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 25 XPident: wilson XPident: Unknown Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6194 alt.sys.pdp11:6177 In article , News wrote: >Here I have for auction an old and HUGE memory board from a PDP-11 computer, >dated 1978. Look at this very nice piece of memory !!! Gold plated chips >(hundreds of 2K ICs, all C2117-3, predecessors of the well known 4116 >chips). Actually, the M8629 comes from a DEC KS10 36-bit computer, not a PDP-11 at all. Which actually makes it rarer, except that that particular board is one of the easier ones to find (I've got piles of them, and aftermarket clones too, in case anyone is reviving a KS and needs some), but some of the other CPU boards (all of which are in the M861x and M862x range) are less common, if you can find any of those please post and I'm sure you'll find a buyer. I've been told that the KS10 memory system was actually designed before the 16K DRAMs were available, they built the prototypes using 4K DRAMs and trusted that the 16K ones would be out in time for the product release. Nice move, they were right! Another nice thing is that the memory controller (MMC) is separate from the memory arrays (MMA), so all the ECC and refresh stuff only had to be done once rather than duplicated for each board. So it could be very cheap to add memory (although I don't whether DEC passed the cost savings on to customers) John Wilson D Bit Article 6195 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!not-for-mail From: Enrico Badella Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: FA: M8629 HUGE memory board for collector, from PDP-11 machine Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 15:32:19 +0100 Organization: SoftStar Lines: 24 Message-ID: <384D1A73.2913B449@softstar.it> References: <38499ddf_1@news.wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.softstar.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,it Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6195 alt.sys.pdp11:6184 John Wilson wrote: > > Nice move, they were right! Another nice thing is that the memory controller > (MMC) is separate from the memory arrays (MMA), so all the ECC and refresh > stuff only had to be done once rather than duplicated for each board. So This is certainly a nice feature I never though of. How were the refresh signals passed from board to board? Just a normal flat cable? Mabye this is a dumb question, but I've never seen one of these boards 8-( e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== Article 6196 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: FA: M8629 HUGE memory board for collector, from PDP-11 machine References: <38499ddf_1@news.wizvax.net> <384D1A73.2913B449@softstar.it> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <384d5fe8_3@news.wizvax.net> Date: 7 Dec 1999 14:28:40 -0500 X-Trace: 7 Dec 1999 14:28:40 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 24 XPident: wilson XPident: Unknown Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:6196 alt.sys.pdp11:6185 In article <384D1A73.2913B449@softstar.it>, Enrico Badella wrote: >> Nice move, they were right! Another nice thing is that the memory controller >> (MMC) is separate from the memory arrays (MMA), so all the ECC and refresh >> stuff only had to be done once rather than duplicated for each board. So > >This is certainly a nice feature I never though of. How were the refresh signals >passed from board to board? Just a normal flat cable? Mabye this is a dumb >question, but I've never seen one of these boards 8-( The whole mess goes in a special card cage so the backplane is specially wired to distribute everything properly. The MMC goes in the left-most slot, and you fill in MMAs towards the right (up to 8 total). I guess DEC only got into the "all slots are created equal" thing on their smaller machines, like Omnibus PDP-8s, and MicroVAXen (where non-standard signals have to be passed over the top of the boards using jumper blocks or ribbon cables). They weren't at all shy about having wire wrap rat's nests in the backplanes of their bigger machines, where each slot was made for one particular board. Well it's certainly convenient having your UBAs and MMAs automatically fall at the right addresses (because of per-slot device selects) w/o having to mess with links or DIP switches or anything... John Wilson D Bit Article 8134 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!lax.uu.net!pao.uu.net!fox.almaden.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!newshost.transarc.com!pat From: Pat Barron Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: A few questions about the KS10 micromachine ... Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 14 Apr 2000 20:56:42 GMT Organization: Transarc Corporation Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: smithfield.transarc.ibm.com Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8134 So, I'm going though the KS10 microcode sources, trying to figure out how the micromachine works. There are a few things I'm just not clear on from what I have seen so far. 1) What is the SCAD? From what I've read to this point, it appears to be some type of ALU-like thing, with floating point? 2) What do the SC and FE fields do? They seem to have something to do with the SCAD? 3) Is the representation of floating-point numbers in the microcode the same as the PDP-10 representation? If not, then what do floating- point numbers look like in the microcode? 4) How wide are the registers in the register file. They seem to have bits numbered from -3 thru 36 - that would make them 40 bits wide? 5) Does anyone have a data sheet for the AMD 2901? I can't seem to find such a thing on-line. Before you ask, yes, I am toying with the idea of emulating a KS10 at the microcode level - I figure a 500 MHz Athlon ought to be able to run PDP-10 code that way at least as fast as a real KS10. And yes, I am somewhat insane, thanks for asking ... :-) Thanks, --Pat. Article 8137 of alt.sys.pdp10: Message-ID: <38F79F3E.FBD9B95A@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:44:14 -0600 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A few questions about the KS10 micromachine ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.46 X-Trace: 14 Apr 2000 15:18:59 -0700, 207.153.6.46 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 23 Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!news.dra.com!newsxfer.visi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.46 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8137 > So, I'm going though the KS10 microcode sources, trying to figure out > how the micromachine works. There are a few things I'm just not clear > on from what I have seen so far. > > 5) Does anyone have a data sheet for the AMD 2901? I can't seem to > find such a thing on-line. The 2901 chips 2901-2901A-2901B-2901C are a obsolete product. I do have the data sheets on the 2901C version of the chip, but only in paper form. The 2901 is 4 bit register/alu block. There is 16 general registers as well as a Q register used as extension register for bit shifting. There may be data sheets still on the web for 16bit versions of the 2901 chip, but nobody uses bit slice any more. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." The Lagging edge of technology: http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/woodelf/index.html Article 8172 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!194.176.220.129!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.kersur.net!not-for-mail From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A few questions about the KS10 micromachine ... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:46:09 -0400 Organization: Kersur Technologies Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8dasj0$ve$1@news.kersur.net> References: <38F79F3E.FBD9B95A@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nas-2-162.boston.navipath.net X-Trace: news.kersur.net 955839904 1006 216.67.2.162 (15 Apr 2000 23:05:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kersur.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2000 23:05:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8172 Short of getting a copy of any of several editions of AMD's long-gone "Bipolar Microprocessors Databook", the best way to learn about the 2901 and its companion family is to get a copy of the book, "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by John Mick and James Brick, published by McGraw-Hill in 1980, ISBN 0-07-041781-4. Mick and Brick were 2900 family application engineering managers at AMD, and they collected and edited all the 2900 family application notes into a 398 page book that is an excellent tutorial, not only for the 2900 family, but for bit-sliced and microprogrammed computer design in general. The book includes the complete designs for two 16-bit minicomputers, and is fascinating reading. New-old-stock 2901 chips are still available, should anyone want 'em, from surplus places such as Alltronics, BG Micro and Unicorn Electronics. Ben Franchuk wrote in message <38F79F3E.FBD9B95A@jetnet.ab.ca>... > >> So, I'm going though the KS10 microcode sources, trying to figure out >> how the micromachine works. There are a few things I'm just not clear >> on from what I have seen so far. >> >> 5) Does anyone have a data sheet for the AMD 2901? I can't seem to >> find such a thing on-line. Article 8145 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Bill Westfield Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A few questions about the KS10 micromachine ... Date: 14 Apr 2000 23:27:36 -0700 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 13 Message-ID: <54hfd3najr.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@flipper.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8145 Xilinx offers an "Intellectual Property" product that builds a 2901 in one of their FPGAs - they might have enough of a datasheet to get a reasonable understanding of the parts. Cypress and IDT (I think) both did 16bit wide versions of the 2901 (eg cy7c9101) that were used fairly widely in bitslice controlled interface board of cisco routers, relatively recently (say, up though a cisco-7000.) (I'm not sure whether any of those are still sold, though, and I couldn't find any online datasheets for them either...) BillW -- (remove spam food from return address) Article 8186 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.new-york.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A few questions about the KS10 micromachine ... Date: 16 Apr 2000 12:06:37 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8dcacd$30mh$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <38F79F3E.FBD9B95A@jetnet.ab.ca> <8dasj0$ve$1@news.kersur.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 955886797 99025 10.0.0.43 (16 Apr 2000 12:06:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Apr 2000 12:06:37 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8186 In article <8dasj0$ve$1@news.kersur.net>, Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote: >Short of getting a copy of any of several editions of AMD's long-gone >"Bipolar Microprocessors Databook", the best way to learn about the 2901 >and its companion family is to get a copy of the book, "Bit-Slice >Microprocessor Design" by John Mick and James Brick, published by >McGraw-Hill in 1980, ISBN 0-07-041781-4. Also, if you can find it, the last fifth of "OSBORNE 16-Bit Microprocessor Handbook" is about the 2900 series. McGraw-Hill (again) 1981 ISBN 0-931988-43-8. -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. "[Deep Impact]: the tragedy of Bad Science hitting the planet." -- David Jacoby Article 8336 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-102 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Looking for EXE/RDI specifications Date: Fri, 28 Apr 00 07:21:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8ebnna$bh1$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <0m4O4.1251$F.33163@news4.giganews.com> X-Trace: Tp8rhyGA973UzKEQzJM73HBmZ+M6cd9ipy/jlYMTgxI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Apr 2000 10:04:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8336 In article <0m4O4.1251$F.33163@news4.giganews.com>, Timothy Stark wrote: >Timothy Stark wrote: >> I am looking for EXE/RDI file specification. Does anyone have any >> information about that? Please let me know. I need specs to implement >> EXE/RDI loading routines into my emulator. > >Well, I resolved a problem with exe loading routines. Today I implemented >the exe loading routines into my emulator. Now it loaded and ran >'ksboot.exe' successfully. Now I saw 'BOOT V4(76)' message on my >emulator after it initilized and turned paging mode on. It seems worked >so well for printing characters in paging mode! Wow! You're working fast. Are you for real? :-) > >However, somewhere messed up EPT mapping cause 'ksboot.exe' crashed after >print "BOOT V4(76)". I am debugging my emulator to find a hidden bug >right now... Note that the BOOT that displays V4 (KSBOOT.EXE) is not the same as BOOTM. They're completely different critters. The BOOT is a rewrite of the old boot and should be doing things more sensible (but the developer was not thinking about emulation at the time). So, if you need to take a look at its source, you need to find the files that were shipped in the BOOT subdirectory rather than the BOOTM subdirectory on the CUSP tape. However, Tim's areas have some consistency problems (not Tim's fault, merely an effect of not ever having a complete product ship) so I believe that anything taken before 7.03 will have to use the old BOOT (we called it BOOTS) rather than that new BOOT. Spelling, including capitalization on TOPS10 was very important, so you really do need to pay attention to files and docs that refer to stuff that is spelt slightly different. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 8413 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.org.decus,comp.emulators.misc Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator References: <8epvur$rep$1@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <39108b99$0$206@nntp1.ba.best.com> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <3910d117_1@news.wizvax.net> Date: 3 May 2000 21:23:35 -0400 X-Trace: 3 May 2000 21:23:35 -0400, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 53 XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!194.176.220.129!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8413 alt.folklore.computers:156291 comp.org.decus:6109 comp.emulators.misc:62645 In article <39108b99$0$206@nntp1.ba.best.com>, Edward A. Falk wrote: >Timing is another problem. I've heard that there was an early >version of a PDP-10 emulator that was failing under Tops-10 because >emulated disk I/O was happening too fast. IIRC, this was a spot in ITS (in DSKDMP I think?) under KLH's KS10 emulator (I heard about it but didn't see it), where it would start a disk I/O transfer using a buffer which included the code currently being executed, and then it would jump out of the way before the disk had a chance to start DMAing stuff in. But on an emulator, the easiest way to emulate disk I/O is to suspend instruction execution do the entire I/O "instantaneously" between instructions, so it would fill the whole buffer before the next instruction was fetched. Since it worked fine on real KS10s, this bug is the emulator's problem, just like the thing you described with executing random data and living to tell about it. I had similar problems with my PDP-11 emulator, and worked around them by putting in a queueing system so that most operations of most devices can be delayed by a configurable # of instruction fetches before that operation is begun (at which point it still may happen in a flash, if it's to a file or device that's accessed using blocking I/O). It's a big pain but this makes it possible to address the actual problem, that the user code assumes it can always finish the last N instructions before a particular spot, before there's any possibility that the device will have completed (or even begun) the operation. Anyway, although I've never finished a KS10 emulator, I've done plenty of work on one and I really think that the instruction set *is* the main concern. It's freakin' huge!!! The paging and UMR and interrupt systems have to be done right too, but they aren't all *that* complicated, at least on the KS. Some of the devices will be tricky, especially the TU77 since the TM03 documentation is so full of nasty little omissions etc., but generally the device support in the OSes for the KS10 is terrible so there just aren't that many devices to worry about in the first place. Do a TU77 and an RP06 and a DZ and you're practically there! The KS10 OSes don't support many of the other zillions of older PDP-11 disk/tape devices that *would* have worked (the RK611 even has an 18-bit mode, and the RK11D can be ECOed into an RK11E too), so you can skip all of those, and the KS10 didn't live long enough to really overlap with the newer PDP-11/VAX stuff (no MSCP at all, and no DELUA, the DEUNA was around but drew too much current to actually install one). So you're off the hook for all that stuff too. AFAIK no serial mux besides the DZ11 was ever officially supported on the KS10 (which is ironic because the KS10 CPU's backplane is actually made from a DH11 PCB with different wire wrap!), there was the DUP11/KMC11 set that was used for sync serial I/O but you're probably not going to get much call for that on a Unix or Windows based emulator. The DZ is dead easy, so really, serial I/O is no biggie either. John Wilson D Bit Article 8411 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Timothy Stark" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: Subject: Re: PDP-10 Emulator Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 19:05:58 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-O1ketSx3KOc+F7NeYLYgG+XHaxF6MAdBWn8DVdR1nU9lwVTfBHqOhryGwPgurDxdDKjg/V52sIiV+2K!rV5SnovQdLmr/KrzKIcYS8wmowDPt/8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:07:52 -0400 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8411 Hello Folks: I read all articles about this subject "PDP-10 Emulator". Well, there are existing PDP-10 emulators. I was able to get my emulator to print "BOOT>" prompt with KL paging system mode turned on. My goal is print a dot. I am writing my KS-10 emulator in progress and am implementing RH11/TM02/TM03 interface and testing it. I played with KSBOOT.EXE and it worked so well and did not crash my emulator. :-) I entered '/tm02' at a BOOT> prompt and got result message - "No TM02 or TM03 drive" before I started to implement my RH11 interface. Yes, I will release my KS10 emulator under GPL license soon but I do not know when yet. Then, I will work on it to expand to KL10 emulator then PDP6/KA10/KI10 later. I learned that my monitor sources support KL10 too but was compiled with KS10 default. I got them from Tim's archives. I know that a sin (fear) controls some authors keep their emulators from people's hands. Indeed, my KS10 microcode sources, monitor sources, TOPS-10 sources and other resources do help my KS10 emulator development so much. -- Tim Stark Article 8575 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!verio.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RH11 Interface - disk access - need more information... From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Organization: Everett Associates X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) References: <391AB9B3.3039ECD7@trailing-edge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 69 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:28:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.70.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 958141737 157.238.70.118 (Fri, 12 May 2000 14:28:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:28:57 GMT Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8575 In article <391AB9B3.3039ECD7@trailing-edge.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com says... > >John Everett wrote: >> >> In article , sword7@speakeasy.org >> says... >> > >> >I am implementing the RP/RM routines for RH11 interface in my emulator. It >> >was almost done but.... I was looking for RP/RM disk drives information but >> >I found much documentation from Bob's PDP-11 emulator (pdp11_rp.c and >> >pdp11_rp.h). However, I learned that RP/RM interface uses 16-bit words fo >r >> >disk access but.. I learned that TM02/03 interface uses 18-bit word >> >addressing for word count. Frame count uses 8-bit byte addressing. The >> >TM02/03 interface worked so well with my emulator... >> > >> >With RP/RM interface, should I use 18-bit word addressing or 16-bit word >> >addressing? If 16-but word addressing, how convert 16-bit word to 36-bit >> >word and via? >> >> Since I wrote the TOPS-10 RH11 interface code, you'd think I could be more >> help than this; but that was 22 years ago and the memory fades. However, one >> thing I do remember is that the key to this can be found in a global >> subroutine called MAPIO. If someone can provide you with a copy of the sourc >e >> with the FTKS10 conditionals present, you should be able to figure it out. > >I believe the routine in question is at > >http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/TOPS10_703_DISTR_BB-X140B-SB/KSSER.MAC > >The relevant section starts: > >;ROUTINE TO SET UP UNIBUS ADAPTER MAPPING REGISTERS FOR A GIVEN >;IOWD FOLLOWING THE PAGING OF A JOB. PRESERVES T1-T4, P3, P4. >; >;CALL MOVE T2,IOWD >; MOVEI P1,0 ;FIRST CALL >; MOVE P3,LOC OF CHANNEL DATA BLOCK >; MOVE P4,FRAME-COUNT,,CHARS/WD IF TU45 >; PUSHJ P,MAPIO >;RETURN CPOPJ IF IOWD EXCEEDS AVAILABLE PAGING REGISTERS >; CPOPJ1 P2=ADDRESS OF FIRST PAGING REGISTER USED >; P1=ADDRESS OF NEXT PAGING REGISTER TO BE USED > >MAPIO:: TLNN T2,-1 ;0 OR CHANNEL JUMPS ARE ILLEGAL > STOPCD CPOPJ##,DEBUG,IEZ, ;++IOWD EQUALS ZERO > PUSHJ P,SVEUB ;SAVE AND SETUP UBR > While it's kind of fun to read my own code after all these years, now I'm not so sure MAPIO is the right place to find the relevant information. Perhaps I'm thinking about a routine originally written for the DC10 that I modified for the KS. :-) Also went to the referenced web site and looked at the source. I noticed someone edited my name from the SUBTTL line in KSSER. Instead it reads DMCC (Dave McClure?) and DBD (Doug Detroy?). Sigh! :-( -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 8542 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RH11 Interface - disk access - need more information... References: Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <391afb37_1@news.wizvax.net> Date: 11 May 2000 14:25:59 -0400 X-Trace: 11 May 2000 14:25:59 -0400, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 43 XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8542 In article , Timothy Stark wrote: >I am implementing the RP/RM routines for RH11 interface in my emulator. It >was almost done but.... I was looking for RP/RM disk drives information but >I found much documentation from Bob's PDP-11 emulator (pdp11_rp.c and >pdp11_rp.h). However, I learned that RP/RM interface uses 16-bit words for >disk access but.. I learned that TM02/03 interface uses 18-bit word >addressing for word count. Frame count uses 8-bit byte addressing. The >TM02/03 interface worked so well with my emulator... > >With RP/RM interface, should I use 18-bit word addressing or 16-bit word >addressing? If 16-but word addressing, how convert 16-bit word to 36-bit >word and via? Not sure quite what you mean by "addressing" here, but I'll blab a bit and hopefully cover what you're really asking. The Massbus is effectively in two pieces, one side does register accesses and the other side is used for data transfer. They're basically separate, even though they run through the same big honking cable. The register access side is 16 bits wide (for compatibility with PDP-11s etc., you don't want to have bits that some hosts can't reach), and the data transfer side is 18 bits wide (only 16 of which are used in the 16-bit modes, again to make PDP-11s happy). So, the frame count register is 16 bits wide, and so are all the other visible registers in the TM02/03 or the RP06 DCL or the RMxx "RM adapter". The RH11C is *almost* a standard PDP-11 controller, I can't find my printset and don't have a machine set up to test but I'm 99% sure that even when used with 18-bit Unibus, the RHBA and RHWC registers are still 16 bits wide and you have to use the BA extension bits in RHCS1 (or anyway, *one* of the extension bits, since the UBA's map covers only the low half of the Unibus space). The disk data are transferred via DMA and since the disks are formatted with 18-bit data, there's no re-packing required as with 8-bit tape data, so the 18-bit words come across the Massbus and through the Unibus w/o being messed up. Then the UBA handles the KS10 memory transfer, optionally collecting two halfwords into an entire word before performing DMA (for "fast" mode), but it can do them individually (it looks like writing to memory destroys the whole word for the first byte/halfword in a word, but the others are done using read-modify-write). John Wilson D Bit Article 8862 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: More about RH11 interface... References: X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 01 Jun 2000 23:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 53 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 1 Jun 2000 23:17:57 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8862 "Timothy Stark" writes: > I learned that TM02 and TM03 > controllers supports up to 64 tape drives per RH11 controller. Up to eight tape formatters (TM02, TM03, ?TM78?) on a Massbus. Up to eight tape transports on a formatter. > What is difference between TM02 and TM03 tape controllers? I think the TM02 only supports 800 bpi (and perhaps 200 and 556 on 7-track?), whereas the TM03 supports 800 and 1600. But I don't know for sure because all my drives are on TM03s, and I don't have TM02 docs. > Someone said that all registers on each drive. However, RH11 documents said > that there are 6 local registers in controller but 16 remote registers are > in each drive. When change a unit in CS2, all drive registers are > automatically located to the new desired drive. Yes. > I believe that tape and > disk units can be mixed on same MASSBUS controller. Theoretically possible. Not done in practice. Might work on some operating systems, but most don't support it. It certainly isn't supported on the KS10. > However, I found out > that tape's registers are very different from disk's registers. Yup. > Yes, CS3 > and BAE registers have different addresses between tape and disk drives but > are local registrers in MASSBUS controller. Hmm. I don't have my RH11, RH20, RH70, or RH780 prints handy, but it's certainly the case that the registers that are local to the Massbus interface have basically the same function for both discs and tapes. This follows logically from the fact that the Massbus interface doesn't really *know* which kind of device it's talking to. Note that the Massbus controllers present the registers to the host computer at relative addresses that are almost unrelated to the address on the bus. So if you compare the addresses in a device manual with those used by software, you'll certainly get confused. I've never figured out why they did this; it seems completely arbitrary and unhelpful. If memory serves, the register addressing/mapping is done by a PROM on some of the Massbus interfaces, and by hardwired logic in others. Article 8864 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: More about RH11 interface... References: Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <393764f8_1@news.wizvax.net> Date: 2 Jun 2000 03:40:40 -0400 X-Trace: 2 Jun 2000 03:40:40 -0400, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 52 XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8864 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >Note that the Massbus controllers present the registers to the host >computer at relative addresses that are almost unrelated to the >address on the bus. So if you compare the addresses in a device manual >with those used by software, you'll certainly get confused. I've >never figured out why they did this; it seems completely arbitrary >and unhelpful. Seems crazy to me too. However, I don't think this happens all the time; IIRC, on the RH780, the registers appear in actual physical order, and I think maybe on the RH20 too (picked through the prints at one point). The RH11 and RH70 mix it all up (fortunately the same as each other at least), in case anyone cares, this is the mapping (using 776700 as the base addr): Unibus Massbus Name(s) ====== ======= ======= 776700 00 CS1 776706 05 DA/FC 776712 01 DS/FS (RO) 776714 02 ER/ER1 (RO) 776716 04 AS (shared in all drives, presumably parity is ignored) 776720 07 LA/CC (RO) 776724 03 MR/MR1 776726 06 DT (RO) 776730 10 SN (RO) 776732 11 OF/TC 776734 12 DC 776736 13 HR/CC 776740 14 MR2/ER2 (RO if ER2) 776742 15 ER2/ER3 (RO) 776744 16 EC1 (RO) 776746 17 EC2 (RO) 776750 20 IA 776752 21 ID Note that Massbus has 5 address bits but most devices fit in 4. Naturally there has to be an exception -- the TU78 has 18 regs. ILR sets if you touch a nonexistent reg. Also, before I forget -- the RH11 works very differently with data transfer vs. non-data-transfer commands. The READY bit in RHCS1 only has to do with data transfer commands, which are opcodes 51-77, and are assumed to use the data half of the bus (and thus DMA through BA and WC). Only one of those can be outstanding at a time, which is why the controller has a centralized READY bit to cover it. But the register half of the Massbus is never tied up, so you can poke drive regs any time (although you'll get an RMR error from the drive if you write one of its regs while it's busy with something). The non-data-transfer commands all indicate completion with attentions. John Wilson D Bit Article 8863 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: More about RH11 interface... References: Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <393760ed_1@news.wizvax.net> Date: 2 Jun 2000 03:23:25 -0400 X-Trace: 2 Jun 2000 03:23:25 -0400, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 50 XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:8863 In article , Timothy Stark wrote: >I am re-writing my RH11 routines half-way.. I learned that TM02 and TM03 >controllers supports up to 64 tape drives per RH11 controller. I have a >question for you. What is difference between TM02 and TM03 tape >controllers? I'm not sure about *all* the differences, but the two I have noted down are: * bit 5 of drive type register is 1 on TM03, 0 on TM02 (just for ID) * bit 13 of TC reg is "SAC" (slave address change) on TM03, and it's set any time the slave select bits change. but it's TCW (tape control write) on TM03, and sets any time the reg is written (even if the slave select bits are unchanged). I kind of think I remember this having some side-effect on some delay somewhere, which doesn't need to be restarted if it's the same slave, but IIRC that's the formatter's business and nothing that you need to emulate. >I believe that tape and >disk units can be mixed on same MASSBUS controller. However, I found out >that tape's registers are very different from disk's registers. Definitely true. >Yes, CS3 >and BAE registers have different addresses between tape and disk drives but >are local registrers in MASSBUS controller. The CS3 and BAE registers appear only on the RH70, not the RH11, so don't worry about this. And it's not exactly a tape vs. disk distinction; the rule is, CS3 and BAE are jumpered to immediately follow the *last* existing Massbus register, so it differs between disks and tapes only because they have a different number of registers. But it also differs between RS03/04 fixed-head disks (which have only 8 regs in the drive) and the RPxx/RMxx pack drives (which have 16). >That's why I am figuring out to implement routines to access local and drive >registers for mixed tape and disk drives per same MASSBUS controller. Yeah, you just need to split out which regs are in the RH and which are in the formatter or drive. CS2, WC, BA, and the maintenance data buffer register are on the RH, so you don't have to mess with per-drive data there (it's OK if the currently selected drive doesn't even exist). CS1 is half-and-half so you OR together the values on reads, and distribute the bits accordingly on writes. Everything else goes to Massbus regs in the currently selected drive. John Wilson D Bit Article 4312 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nuq-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen.news.verio.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!newshost.transarc.com!pat From: Pat Barron Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Do KS10 support Ethernet? Date: 15 Jun 2000 20:43:29 GMT Organization: Transarc Corporation Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <4J925.173295$701.2240811@news4.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: smithfield.transarc.ibm.com In-reply-to: Timothy Stark's message of Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:00:16 GMT Xref: dfw-artgen.news.verio.net alt.sys.pdp10:4312 In article <4J925.173295$701.2240811@news4.giganews.com> Timothy Stark writes: > [...] I know DZ-11 for > terminals. I never heard of CD11 before. What is that? I'd forgot to mention - I think the CD11 is a card reader? I don't know how something like that would get into a network module, or if you found it in a different place ... the PDP-11 Field Guide lists an M7249 module as "CD11 Hollerith Check (Multiple ones error detector)", which gives me even more confidence that it is, in fact, a card reader. --Pat. Article 4318 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nuq-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen.news.verio.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Do KS10 support Ethernet? Date: 15 Jun 2000 13:13:56 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <4J925.173295$701.2240811@news4.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 961110837 6562 128.171.80.135 (15 Jun 2000 23:13:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 23:13:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Xref: dfw-artgen.news.verio.net alt.sys.pdp10:4318 >>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy Stark writes: Timothy> I never heard of CD11 before. What is that? IIRC it was a 1200 CPM card reader :-) It's older than the manuals I have handy :-( Article 4320 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nuq-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen.news.verio.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon1.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <394985AC.8FEA17F3@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net Organization: The Keltic League X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Do KS10 support Ethernet? References: <4J925.173295$701.2240811@news4.giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:36:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.169 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon1.ba-dsg.net 961119418 138.88.35.169 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:36:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:36:58 EDT Xref: dfw-artgen.news.verio.net alt.sys.pdp10:4320 there was a cr11, like the cr8e, program interrupt device. there was a KG11, prior to the 2652 and SMC5025 chips with CRC check built in. bob Jim Thomas wrote: > > >>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy Stark writes: > > Timothy> I never heard of CD11 before. What is that? > > IIRC it was a 1200 CPM card reader :-) It's older than the manuals I have > handy :-( Article 1426 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-83 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: A bug in MTBOOT.RDI (TOPS-20 v4.1) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 07:19:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8rf0of$5m4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8r71ms$lor$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> X-Trace: CMtcCVVwd43H4Jn51YDmYbhpXea9I0b75IQZjNUtp4o= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2000 10:28:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1426 In article , Timothy Stark wrote: >Mark Crispin wrote: >> Yup. It's a known bug. At J3+6, there is a >> WRCSTM [77B5] >> that should be >> MOVX T1,77B5 >> WRCSTM T1 >> or possibly >> WRCSTM [77B5]-ENT(16) > >> I'm not sure why/how this worked on a real KS. > >> There is another bug. At CHKCHN (under IFN SMFLG), there is a >> CAIG P,MAXCHN1 >> that should be >> CAIG P,1 > >Mark: > ... Yes, that is another programming error. >MTBOOT.RDI indeed is buggy. :-( I can't believe that it works fine on a >real KS10... You have to remember that the KS10 was designed for ADP to run TOPS10. It is quite possible that an installation from scratch was never done for the V4.0 release. The KS that we had was rarely used by the -20 monitor group so any work done on the KS part of TOPS-20 probably started with a disk pack that was ready to run rather than a blank one. Somehow a niggle in my head is saying that a new KS system that was shipped to a customer came with a disk that was ready made for running. If that was the case, then the manufacturing guys were the ones who built it. And I can tell you from experience that those guys were not methodical _at all_. My last triumph was getting the contents of the KLAD pack out of their hands. > >TOPS-20 v4.1 for my emulator is not supported at this time. I believe >that TOPS-20 distribution without source code is much difficult to debug >than TOPS-10 with source code. That's why I can't fix them. :-( I gave >up. If its source code is released into Tim Shoppa's archives or so, I >will resume. One of the side effects of not shipping sources is that the source tape will not match the general distribution tape. That was true with the -20 ships until management finally figured out that an engineer should be designing the build and packaging procedures. That was another accomplishment of mine. There was a gap after Alan Frantz left that non-engineer types did all the decision making for the packaging on both the -10 and -20. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 1790 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP10 (KS10) Emulator status. Date: 29 Oct 2000 20:53:07 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8ti2nj$sga$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <8t3v2j$j87$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <6EhJ5.86142$bI6.2817650@news1.giganews.com> <8t6qvc$cgo$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 972852787 29194 206.184.139.134 (29 Oct 2000 20:53:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 2000 20:53:07 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:1790 In article <8t6qvc$cgo$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <6EhJ5.86142$bI6.2817650@news1.giganews.com>, > Timothy Stark wrote: >>Hehe. Yeah. I agree with you. I have not implemented DZ-11 devices yet >>because I need DZ-11 functional specs. However, I can implement KLINIK >>for second terminal soon. > >I didn't know that KLINIK could have two terminals. >As far as I knew the KLINIK line was to pretend that >the especially blessed person dialing in should have >all the privs as if he were physically at the console. >And I thought the console was limited to one line. >The CTY had power, even more than [1,2] jobs. > Remember, Barb, that the KS10 had a REMOTE DIAGNOSIS switch with three positions: DISABLE = Ignore RD, CD, RI and all other signals from the KLINIK line. ENABLE = Allows free acces to the system without password protection. This is like the KL KLINIK; the lines wired in parallel. PROTECT = Allows access to the system with a password. There was a separate command you had to type on the console to tell the 8080 front end what the password was. When the FE called up the modem connected to the KLINIK line, he would be asked for the password. If it matched, the KLINIK line would be connected to the console. If it did not match the line would be an ordinary terminal line. I forget now whether the line was CTY+1 or CTY-1, but it did allow logging in as a "normal" user (such as [6,6] or [6,10]). -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. Article 2099 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 System Reference? Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 21:44:10 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 975735850 17206 17.205.21.66 (2 Dec 2000 05:44:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 2000 05:44:10 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2099 In article , aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: > A long time ago, Pat Barron wrote: > > >I'm working on a similar project (though I haven't touched it in some > >time). The only System Reference I can help with is the KS10 reference. > > Eric Smith scanned in the '82 processor reference manual, and I just > finshed scanning the '70 reference 'phone book' on the KA. Both are up at > www.spies.com/aek/pdf/pdp10 > typo on my part. the correct url should be http://www.spies.com/aek/pdf/dec/pdp10/ -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." Article 2244 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A3100C0.B4F570B4@bartek.net> From: Arthur Krewat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90q2s5$1o0a$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A30E2C7.47025F46@bartek.net> <90qq1b$a5m$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:44:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.213.53 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 976290284 24.190.213.53 (Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:44:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:44:44 EST Organization: Optimum Online Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2244 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >6.03a has support for the 1091, but looking at SYSINI.MAC, I find > >nothing for the KS10, just a lot of KA/KI/KL stuff... > > > >Now, that has me wondering... how the HELL did we run 6.03 (not 6.03A!) > >on a KS10? > > It shouldn't have been hard to tweak it. 6.03A was only a maintenance > release. I'm wondering... > I seem to recall a 1091 LIR. So that means that the 1091 did > run under 6.03. I simply cannot recall who did the packaging > for the KS. Can somebody give John Everett a kick and ask him > to lurk the weekend? I know he wrote about the KS project > quite a while back. Now that I'm thinking about it, I recall that when we got the KS10's, the only thing that ran on them was TOPS-20. (this was before I worked there by a year or two). Of course, we were a TOPS-10 shop, so that was unacceptable. I asked a co-worker, and learned that my future boss used the existing KA10 to hack the 6.03 binaries so they would boot on a KS10. As soon as he could boot 6.03, he altered the sources accordingly and recompiled. I don't think we ever had a "real" distribution tape for 6.03... I'm not sure how much he had to do to get it working, but I seem to remember a "KSSER.MAC", which doesn't exist in the 6.03 archives. I believe he stole the KLSER.MAC and modified to fit... how hard would it be to get a KS10 running hacked KL sources? Would you need "tops-10" paging? :) art k. Article 2279 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A3247FE.CE2B9607@bartek.net> From: Arthur Krewat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90q2s5$1o0a$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A30E2C7.47025F46@bartek.net> <90qq1b$a5m$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A3100C0.B4F570B4@bartek.net> <90tcm3$ops$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 15:01:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.213.53 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 976374060 24.190.213.53 (Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:01:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:01:00 EST Organization: Optimum Online Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2279 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > >Now that I'm thinking about it, I recall that when we got the KS10's, > >the only thing that ran on them was TOPS-20. (this was before I > >worked there by a year or two). > > Well, that sounds screwier still since the KS was built for > ADP. That's the way it happened at BOCES III in Dix Hills... the Ks10's would run TOPS-20, not -10, and they had to MAKE it work. > >As soon as he could boot 6.03, he altered the sources accordingly and > >recompiled. > > He might have taken the -20 equivalent of KSSER and hacked it > into 6.03 but I have no idea why he would have had such a mess. I doubt it - the only TOPS-20 we had was the "red" diagnostic pack. > >I don't think we ever had a "real" distribution tape for 6.03... > > You would have never had 6.03 without a "real" distribution. You're > confused because we didn't begin to ship the CUSP tape with the > monitor tape until 7.01. Before that, customers got 23 "cusp tapes" > with one monitor tape as the installation set. Old customers > only got dribbles of tapes getting sent to them as somebody inhouse > put out a release of _a single piece of software_. We were not > coordinated at all. The -20 group "fixed" this in their procedures > by making it impossible to ship single products. We had two > extremes back then and nobody paid any attention to packaging > from an engineering point of view until I started rattling the > cages. I did a complete inventory of all tapes around 5 years after the KS10's came in - I never found the 6.03 monitor tapes, nor anything else, but a copy of the KS10 Diagnostics - which I think is the same as the one on Tim Shoppa's site. We did have an RP06 that came straight from DEC with the 6.03 monitor on it. Boy, did we protect that pack with our lives! > > Would you > >need "tops-10" paging? :) > > Define paging. I think you're confusing the hardware stuff > with the way JMF moved things around for the user. There was a discussion when Tim Stark first started his emulator, about the need for TOPS-10 paging vs TOPS-20 paging. Apparently there are versions of KS10 microcode for each. Maybe since ADP needed to run TOPS-10 on them, they needed TOPS-10 paging - 7.0x TOPS-10 (I think) uses TOPS-20 paging. (whatever that means!). For all I know, ADP helped my boss to fix up 6.03 to run... Office gossip/history is a misleading mother... And, back to my original question... how much hacking would it really take to get 6.03 running on a KS10? If you had to choose KA, KI or KL, which platform is closest to the KS and what would you steal to make it work? art k. Article 2292 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: KS10 TOPS-10 vs. TOPS-20 (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90q2s5$1o0a$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A30E2C7.47025F46@bartek.net> <90qq1b$a5m$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A3100C0.B4F570B4@bartek.net> <90tcm3$ops$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Dec 2000 18:01:45 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 9 Dec 2000 18:05:06 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2292 In article <3A3100C0.B4F570B4@bartek.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: > Now that I'm thinking about it, I recall that when we got the KS10's, > the only thing that ran on them was TOPS-20. (this was before I > worked there by a year or two). jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Well, that sounds screwier still since the KS was built for > ADP. You were there and I wasn't, but I never heard that the KS was "built for ADP". What I heard was that it was ONLY going to support TOPS-20, until ADP insisted that it must run TOPS-10 (and did the port, IIRC). After all, the KS10 is part of a DECSYSTEM-2020. It's not part of a DECsystem-10xx for any value of xx. This suggests that it was not planned to run TOPS-10. I recently learned that SC built a custom replacement memory system for the KS10, in order to build SMP systems! Article 2316 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-71 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Debugging GALAXY Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 12:21:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 93 Message-ID: <9100co$6vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90q2s5$1o0a$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A30E2C7.47025F46@bartek.net> <90qq1b$a5m$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A3100C0.B4F570B4@bartek.net> <90tcm3$ops$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A3247FE.CE2B9607@bartek.net> X-Trace: 25LewqqtRUI/JYCtvBA9/kGa/gSUMLx355k4bIRqgck= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2000 13:27:52 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2316 In article <3A3247FE.CE2B9607@bartek.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> >Now that I'm thinking about it, I recall that when we got the KS10's, >> >the only thing that ran on them was TOPS-20. (this was before I >> >worked there by a year or two). >> >> Well, that sounds screwier still since the KS was built for >> ADP. > >That's the way it happened at BOCES III in Dix Hills... the Ks10's >would run TOPS-20, not -10, and they had to MAKE it work. What year was this? Is it possible that you bought somebody else's installation without going through DEC? > >> >As soon as he could boot 6.03, he altered the sources accordingly and >> >recompiled. >> >> He might have taken the -20 equivalent of KSSER and hacked it >> into 6.03 but I have no idea why he would have had such a mess. > >I doubt it - the only TOPS-20 we had was the "red" diagnostic pack. I have no idea what a red pack looked liked. That was down on my list of "Things to examine". > >> >I don't think we ever had a "real" distribution tape for 6.03... >> >> You would have never had 6.03 without a "real" distribution. You're >> confused because we didn't begin to ship the CUSP tape with the >> monitor tape until 7.01. Before that, customers got 23 "cusp tapes" >> with one monitor tape as the installation set. Old customers >> only got dribbles of tapes getting sent to them as somebody inhouse >> put out a release of _a single piece of software_. We were not >> coordinated at all. The -20 group "fixed" this in their procedures >> by making it impossible to ship single products. We had two >> extremes back then and nobody paid any attention to packaging >> from an engineering point of view until I started rattling the >> cages. > >I did a complete inventory of all tapes around 5 years after the KS10's >came in - I never found the 6.03 monitor tapes, Right. If anything it would have been 6.03A. You must not have paid a maintenance fee. > ... nor anything else, but >a copy of the KS10 Diagnostics - which I think is the same as the one >on Tim Shoppa's site. > >We did have an RP06 that came straight from DEC with the 6.03 monitor >on it. Boy, did we protect that pack with our lives! And that sounds like a KLAD. The only RP06 disk pack we shipped was a KLAD and it didn't have "modern" software until I stamped my foot at manufacturing. >For all I know, ADP helped my boss to fix up 6.03 to run... >Office gossip/history is a misleading mother... And, from what you tell me, your site got everything from under the table. That's why you never had a complete set of anything. > >And, back to my original question... how much hacking would it >really take to get 6.03 running on a KS10? I thought I did answer it. My manpower estimate (which was always shy by 300%) is 3 man years to hack; 2 man years for monitor debugging; 5 man years to retrofit the CUSPs. >If you had to choose >KA, KI or KL, which platform is closest to the KS and what would >you steal to make it work? I wouldn't steal any. I would copy a KS save set from Shoppa's archive. 6.03 had great problems. That why we made 7.01. And I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with FAILSA , MPB and the absence of VTTECO, MIC, SET W F, PATH, and the FILDAE. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 3270 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TS-10 emulator status. From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Organization: Everett Associates X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3xDb6.1405$ws2.91181@ord-read.news.verio.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:37:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.71.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 980354239 157.238.71.25 (Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:37:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:37:19 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3270 In article , sword7@grace.speakeasy.org says... > >However, I still am not finishing my TS-10 emulator project because >LP20, DZ11, and other few devices had not implemented yet. Tim, are you just trying to get LPT output routed to a printer, or are you committed to emulating devices as originally configured by DEC? I'm asking, because it seems to me emulating an LP11 would be easier than an LP20. While DEC never released a KS-10 with an LP11, while I was with ADP all of our LPT support was via LP11s. The LP11 device service routine, while not on any DEC release tapes, may still be available from sources I am still in touch with. BTW, even while I was porting TOPS-10 to the KS, using an LP20 never made any sense to me. Because of the "NUXI problem" one had to manipulate the output stream a byte at a time to get it into an order that made sense to the UBA for a DMA transfer to the LP20. I seemed to me that if you had to handle the data a byte at a time anyway it was just as efficient (more efficient?) to simply ship it to a "byte at a time" device like the LP11. Besides, the LP11 was a lot cheaper than an LP20. For this reason, the LP20 service routine was one of the few pieces of the KS-10 implentation I wasn't responsible for. Doug Detroy implemented that module. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 3388 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 micromachine... Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:05:23 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3A7F31B3.42BAE145@prescienttech.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZeDGzG3O4uiFYkZ8kZKeWlohjGM0LCgoNYh5H+LX+G0F04BIBae9Br X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 2001 23:05:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3388 Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > Possibly stupid questions... > > Given a working KS10 and the microcode for it, is there a way to read > the contents of the microcode dispatch ROM from the console? Didn't the dispatch table get loaded with the standard microcode? Have a look at the microcode on Tim Shoppa's site to see it that's the case. I suspect, but cannot prove, it is. > What is the 1-microsecond clock used for? What happens if I turn it > off? What happens if the clock is "off" (I.E. not exactly a > microsecond?) This was probably used for process accounting. If I recall it correctly, the actual job scheduler used the line-clock. I'll see if I can scrape up enough time between shovelling excursions to take a gander at the KS u-code. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ Article 3389 of alt.sys.pdp10: From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 micromachine... Date: 5 Feb 2001 18:12:32 -0500 Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 13 Message-ID: <95nc10$l1a$1@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3A7F31B3.42BAE145@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Trace: 5 Feb 2001 18:12:30 -0500, dbit.dbit.com XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.171.236.116 XPident: Unknown Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!not-for-mail Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3389 In article <3A7F31B3.42BAE145@prescienttech.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: > Didn't the dispatch table get loaded with the standard microcode? >Have a look at the microcode on Tim Shoppa's site to see it that's >the case. I suspect, but cannot prove, it is. IIRC, the KS10 DROM is an honest-to-god ROM. Which is one of the problems if you want to have fun with hacked microcode, I think a bunch of invalid opcodes all point to the same address so there's no way to tell them apart w/o requiring a different DROM. John Wilson D Bit Article 3391 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!sakura.lunar-tokyo.net!dseagrav Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: KS10 micromachine... In-Reply-To: <3A7F31B3.42BAE145@prescienttech.com> Message-ID: References: <3A7F31B3.42BAE145@prescienttech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:56:42 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.251.101.202 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 981417359 209.251.101.202 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:55:59 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:55:59 CDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3391 On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Carl R. Friend wrote: > Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > > > Possibly stupid questions... > > > > Given a working KS10 and the microcode for it, is there a way to read > > the contents of the microcode dispatch ROM from the console? > > Didn't the dispatch table get loaded with the standard microcode? > Have a look at the microcode on Tim Shoppa's site to see it that's > the case. I suspect, but cannot prove, it is. That can't be right, unless the dispatch table is in the CRAM. When I microcoded my KS, it was done entirely with DC commands. > > What is the 1-microsecond clock used for? What happens if I turn it > > off? What happens if the clock is "off" (I.E. not exactly a > > microsecond?) > > This was probably used for process accounting. If I recall it > correctly, the actual job scheduler used the line-clock. Oooh, goody. Article 3465 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.slurp.net!sakura.lunar-tokyo.net!dseagrav Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: KS10 ucode vs. the 2901... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:05:33 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.251.101.202 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 982083871 209.251.101.202 (Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:04:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:04:31 CDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3465 The KS10 ucode destination control != the 2901's idea of a dest code. Here's the translations. I think this is correct. KS10 DEST 2901 DEST NOTE 0 2 RAMFILE = F, Y = A 1 3 RAMFILE = F, Y = F 2 0 Q = F, Y = F 3 1 Y = F 4 4 Q=F*2, Y=F 5 5 Q=F*2, RAMFILE=Q, Y=F 6 6 Q=F/2, RAMFILE=Q, Y=F 7 7 RAMFILE=F/2, Y=F Comments? Article 3668 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Kermit (Was: Barb, DSKB is not in catalog!) Date: 27 Feb 2001 01:17:11 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 22 Message-ID: <97ev6n$1e0v$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3A85706B.B4A96DC3@nospam.nospam> <96e538$d0h$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <96gjqn$ltm$12@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 983236631 47135 206.184.139.134 (27 Feb 2001 01:17:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2001 01:17:11 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3668 In article <96gjqn$ltm$12@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article , > Mark Garrett wrote: >>Much easier the otherway around, map the unix filesystem to TOPS-20. We >>already have the example on KL's mapping FE the front end >>file system being mounted and access under a running >>TOPS-20. > >I think you're a tad confused. The front-end file system was not >access simultaneously by RSX20-F and TOPS20 over the same port. There >was a reason that a hardware port of the front end RP06 was _only_ used >by the PDP-11, leaving the other hardware port for access by the PDP-10. >Also if you did a directory from the -10 side of the RSX20-F file >structure, it appeared as one big file called FE.SYS to the PDP-10 >monitor. Barb's right. On the KS, however, the 8080 did sneak in and diddle with the RH11's registers behind the 2020's back. The data stored in SMFILE.SYS was formatted to make life easier for the 8080. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. Article 4364 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Tops10 a "baroque" operating system? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3AD0B1FD.6DE2F34A@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3AD082F8.B0B4A84A@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:51:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.97.75 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 986755865 24.186.97.75 (Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:51:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:51:05 EDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4364 JD wrote: > > > What bells and whistles are you talking about? > > > At the point I encountered Tops10 (I do not remember the version number) it > was very simple indeed: no IPCF, no QUASAR, ORION, PULSAR, ACTDAE, FILDAE, > account verification, etc.; user information all kept in ACCT.SYS; none of > these options around when, where, or at what priority people could log in; > not even, if I recall correctly, SFDs. A lot of this stuff looks like an > attempt to make up for an architecture that started out less flexible than > it ultimately needed to be. Musta been version 5. I worked with 5.06 for a year before the KA was "upgraded" to five KS10's that ran 6.03 that included SFD's, but not this QUASAR/PULSAR/ORION stuff. > It also seems odd that there are lots of ways of doing the same thing in > this version, ranging from the fact that you can write /NOFOO or /FOO:NO to > the fact that there seem to be 3 or 4 different places (INITIA, LOGIN, SET > TERMINAL etc.) for setting terminal types. And there are those wonderful > 6-character DEC error message codes. And switches with nested parameters, > e.g. /TERMINAL:(LENGTH:20) that look like something out of OS/360. Yeah, there is a lot of that - it's a natural thing over the life of on OS that has gone through 7 major revisions. Different people working on it like something their way - so to add the "/NOFOO" switch that they want to use, they go hack SCAN(?) to allow "/NO...". Meanwhile, it already supports "/FOO:NO" ... > I'm not trying to start a holy war here, just observing that earlier > versions of Tops10 had a far simpler "look and feel" than this one. No problem there... I was just getting your opinion so I could look at it from your perspective. On my boot disk for TOPS-10 7.03 under TS10, I disabled some of the daemons already :) I have a copy of a TOPS-10 6.03A SYSTEM.EXE that ran on a KS10. I plan on getting a 6.03A version of TOPS-10 to run under TS10. You'd be welcome to it if I ever get it off the ground. > My > impression (which may well be wrong) is that Tops20 aged more gracefully in > this regard, perhaps because more of these features were built in from the > start. But perhaps this shift toward the baroque is what happens to all > operating systems as they grow up. I'm not very familiar with TOPS-20, except as a hacker ("break and enter" type). It struck me as being clean and straightforward, although a little bloated for my taste. It was a pig compared to TOPS-10 in terms of memory use (?). art k. Article 4458 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TS10 happiness Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3AD87BDC.426AF9A7@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3AD7ADFF.51EF7F36@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:36:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.97.75 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 987266168 24.186.97.75 (Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:36:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:36:08 EDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4458 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have successfully gen'd a TOPS-10 7.03 system > using TS10 under Solaris 8 x86. Using a SINGLE rp06, a > typical DESTROY and normal MIG install, it boots fine. > This was from today's CVS from source-forge. > > Is it impossible to boot from RPA0+RPA1 (had both and destroyed them > resulting in a DSKB that spanned two RP06's) ?? Just answered my own question, from the 703MIG: 6.2.1 Creating a Front-end File System Directory Area If you are installing a new KS system, you must create a directory area on disk for the microprocessor file system. This area must be [6,2020], and it is recommended that you use the structure that resides on RPA0. Do not use a multiple-unit file structure for the microprocessor file system. aak Article 4626 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer1.tiac.net!posterchild2.tiac.net!news@tiac.net From: Bob Supnik Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: ITS 1-proceed flag Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:48:56 -0400 Organization: www.us.inter.net Lines: 51 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip240.bedford3.ma.pub-ip.psi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4626 The last work item on my ITS list is the 1-proceed capability. It is rather complicated, so I wanted to check out my understanding of its operation, as derived from the KS10 microcode. [An initial question: did ITS require it for operation? The ITS KS10 microcode is conditionalized for three features: PC sampling, 1-proceed, and jump PC (JPC). The first two are enabled, the third is not.] 1-proceed is PC flag<8> (reuse of address inhibit). It can only be set by a "traditional" style JRSTF or JEN. (The ITS KS10 microcode still has the extended JRSTs but doesn't check for 1-proceed in those code paths.) If set, 1-proceed allows the next instruction to execute but then causes a trap through UPT 432/433. The instruction being "1-proceeded" executes as though PC flag<8> was clear; that is, if it is flag-saving jump, PC flag<8> will be clear. There are special cases: - If the instruction following the "1-proceeded" instruction page faults on fetch, the page fault is supressed and the 1-proceed trap occurs instead. [Because the KS10 prefetches the next instruction, normally page faults normally occur before traps.] - If the instruction being "1-proceeded" faults during execution, the page fault PC flags will have the 1-proceed flag set, so that when execution is retried, the 1-proceed trap will occur. - If an interrupt occurs while the "1-proceed" instruction is executing, the interrupt PC flags (for JSR, not for XPCW) will have the 1-proceed trap flag set. The KS10 implements this feature entirely through internal state flags. When a JRSTF or JEN with flags<8> set is seen, an internal flag, FLG.1PROC is set (flags<8> is not set in the hardware). During decode, an extra check is put in to test for FLG.1PROC. If set, then another internal flag, FLG.2PROC, is checked. If FLG.2PROC is clear, it is set, and normal execution occurs. If FLG.2PROC is set, the 1-proceed trap is sprung, and both FLG.1PROC and FLG.2PROC are cleared. The interrupt JSR and page fault handlers check FLG.1PROC and, if it is set, set flags<8> in the save flags word. The fetch trap handler checks FLG.2PROC and, if it is set, takes the 1-proceed trap instead. Comments welcome. /Bob Supnik Article 4643 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!grolier!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Bob Supnik Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: ITS 1-proceed flag Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:40:27 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 50 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4643 On further reflection, I think that the KS10's implementation is broken. On the KS10, FLG.1PROC and FLG.2PROC are supposed to work rather like the VAX T and TP bits. FLG.1PROC (VAX T) is checked after interrupts and traps are processed; if set, it sets FLG.2PROC (VAX TP) to trigger the trap before the next instruction. For the KS10 (not the VAX), the problem is that FLG.2PROC is checked at the same point that FLG.1PROC is checked - after interrupts and traps, not before. Imagine this scenario: n-1/ set FLG.1PROC via JRSTF n/ fetch check FLG.1PROC/2PROC; 1PROC set, hence set 2PROC execute n+1/ interrupt... 1-proceed set in saved flags : JRSTF from interrupt n+1/ fetch check FLG.1PROC/2PROC; 1PROC set, hence set 2PROC n+2/ fetch check FLG.1PROC/2PROC; 2PROC set, hence trap The 1-proceed trap at the end of instruction n has been missed. This is because the state of 2PROC is not saved (no equivalent to VAX TP). To make this work, 2PROC would need to be checked BEFORE interrupts and traps, not after. /Bob On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:48:56 -0400, Bob Supnik wrote: >The last work item on my ITS list is the 1-proceed capability. It is >The KS10 implements this feature entirely through internal state >flags. When a JRSTF or JEN with flags<8> set is seen, an internal >flag, FLG.1PROC is set (flags<8> is not set in the hardware). During >decode, an extra check is put in to test for FLG.1PROC. If set, then >another internal flag, FLG.2PROC, is checked. If FLG.2PROC is clear, >it is set, and normal execution occurs. If FLG.2PROC is set, the >1-proceed trap is sprung, and both FLG.1PROC and FLG.2PROC are >cleared. > >The interrupt JSR and page fault handlers check FLG.1PROC and, if it >is set, set flags<8> in the save flags word. > >The fetch trap handler checks FLG.2PROC and, if it is set, takes the >1-proceed trap instead. Article 4728 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!24.0.0.38!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3AF3C6E2.594862B4@inwap.com> From: Joe Smith Organization: Chez Inwap X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DZ11, TOPS-10 stuff, etc. etc. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 09:42:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.107.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com 989055723 24.1.107.64 (Sat, 05 May 2001 02:42:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:42:03 PDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:4728 Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Small nitpick with ts10 - Can you make the system serial number a settable > item in the config file? In the real world, nobody had the same serial > number. No, no, no. You guys are not following all the steps in the MIG. All real KS-2020's have the same serial number until SMFILE is run. Zane's "TOPS-10 v7.03 Install Proceedure" left out one important step. > DECSYSTEM 2020 DIAGNOSTICS FE-FILE PROGRAM > VERSION 2.5, TOPS-10, KS10, CPU#=5000 > [FOR HELP TYPE "HELP"] > SMFILE>WRITE SETUP DSKB:[1,4] > SMFILE>WRITE RESET > SMFILE>READ DEC:T10KL.ULD SMFILE>SERIAL 4267 ; Enter the CPU's serial number here > SMFILE>WRITE CRAM > SMFILE>WRITE BOOT DEC:KSBOOT.EXE > SMFILE>WRITE DONE > SMFILE>EXIT To repeat, the customer is supposed to set the serial number immediately after reading in the microcode file (before writing CRAM). -Joe -- js-cgi@inwap.com See http://www.inwap.com/ for details Article 5142 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: TOPS-10 6.03 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3B26DEAA.3E0D226C@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3B24FA9C.492DB07C@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3B26A144.86E2EF4@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:36:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 992403419 24.186.100.134 (Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:36:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:36:59 EDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5142 Henry Miller wrote: > > Arthur, > > "Arthur Krewat" wrote in message > news:3B26A144.86E2EF4@bartek.dontspamme.net... > > > > I have gotten TOPS-10 6.03 to boot and run > > > > Anyone from ADP out there ? :) > > > > Well, my mother-in-law used to work for ADP; she could > probably get you payroll/tax information, but no TOPS sources. Ouch... and for whom ? :) > Just to be clear, are you looking for 6.03 or 6.03A ? For the longest time, and I was the one hacking the monitor for the site consisting of 5 KS10's running 6.03, I thought it was plain 6.03. I found an installation monitor for 6.03A living as SYS000.EXE in an old system backup, AFTER the logical end-of-tape on a 1/2" personal backup I had... Now, I am convinced it was 6.03A, since I have checked some other backups I had made, and they plainly state 6.03A. It's been fun... again, ANYONE HAVE 6.03A for KS10? ? ? huh, please? Don't ask why, I'm just nostalgic... if I could, I'd love to run TOPS10 5.06 on a KA10 again ... I once got a view of it through a window... aak Article 13070 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: sea-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen.news.verio.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: RM03 on a KS10 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:27:42 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1005596867 13482 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: ken To: Michael Thompson In-Reply-To: Xref: dfw-artgen.news.verio.net alt.sys.pdp10:13070 Please use a real email address when asking questions. The answer to your question is that even a single RM03 is sufficient to build a workable KS10 system. However, the controller on the RM03 needs to be wired to allow 18bit transfers. Unlike RM05s, the controllers on many RM03s, even those sold for PDP-11 systems, are wired appropriately. It's just a couple of jumpers as I recall. You will, of course, need to format the disks using the KSFORM magtape. If the disk won't format, it may need the rewriting. On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Michael Thompson wrote: > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a KS10 (and Megan Gentry's ADP KS10). They > don't have three-phase power available so using the RP06 disks is a problem. > They just picked up an 11/70 that came with two RM03 disks. I believe that the > RM03 uses single-phase power. Is it possible to build a workable KS10 with only > two RM03 disks? -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article: 17585 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Need KS10 Power Supply Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:40:55 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: <3D302813.BC2BD318@softstar.it> <3D3EF27F.1FAC5186@trailing-edge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:17585 The outputs are: V1 5V @ 30A V2 5V @ 60A V3 12V @ 10A V4 15V @ 3A V5 5V @ 5A In article <3D3EF27F.1FAC5186@trailing-edge.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com says... > >Michael Thompson wrote: >> >> I put images of the outside and inside of the KS10 power supply > >I hope this doesn't sound like sacrilege... but have you considered >a non-Mighty-Mite power supply solution? 5V 100A supplies are >available both new and surplus, but in different (larger) physical >packages, which would necessitate at least some re-wiring and maybe >some new holes. > >What is the Mighty-Mite in the KS10 supposed to put out, anyway? >In the past I've seen 5V@100A, 5V@200A, and 2.5V@300A LH units at >hamfests and the like. > >Tim. -- Michael Thompson m_thompson@NOSPAMids.net Article: 17791 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-131 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DEUNA in a KS10 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 02 13:02:34 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYZLcV7kpES0FHKg9RK8JB4X42ruFPCTT3v5uXTA21T+g67lJ7hNhpm X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2002 14:15:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:17791 In article , m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) wrote: >The KS10 microcode V124 documents say "7.03 is expected to include a DEUNA >driver for the KS10, both to support DECnet and LAT." > >The tops10_704_monitoranf_bb-x140c-sb file has the following code: >IFN M.KS10, ;FORCE LOADING OF DEUNA DEVICE SERVICE > >;GENERATE MONGEN'ED DEVICE TABLES FOR ETHERNET >IFN FTKL10, ;NIA20 (KLNI) >IFN FTKS10, ;DEUNA > >IFN M.KS10,< >LLMPSI::!SETZ T2, > POPJ P, >> ;END IFN M.KS10 > >What does this code fragment do? I don't know; I'd have to look at listings. >Does the code for the DEUNA service exist? > It's the only way KSes got on the net. I can't remember what Bill called the monitor files. They should be in the monitor sources somewhere...LATSER? I can't remember if we unbundled the monitor sources for DECnet. If we did, they would be on the DECnet tape in the monitor save set. If we didn't, they would be on the monitor tape, first save set. (ANF-10 was the second save set.) Also this is info about how I packaged 7.03; I have no idea how they botched the 7.04 ship. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article: 18401 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 02:56:07 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18401 The KS10 just booted from the RP06 and I logged in as the operator. Time to learn a lot more about TOPS10. In article , m_thompson@ids.net says... > >It's been a busy weekend. The RP06 is working just fine on 220VAC Single-Phase. >The machine got to the point where it would get a memory refresh error after >about 3 minutes of run time. I replaced the MMC MOS Memory Controller and that >problem went away. I reinstalled two of the original MMA MOS Memory Array >boards and got parity errors. I installed two new MMA boards and it is running >OK with 256KW. > >I booted from the TOPS 7.03 tape and initialized the disk. I had a bunch of >problems restoring the CUSPS tapes until I did a "set density MTA0: 1600" >command. The CUSPS 1/2 tape is restored and the CUSPS 2/2 is almost done. >CREDIR is on the disk so I have everything to make the machine disk bootable. > >More to follow. > >-- >Michael Thompson >m_thompson@NOSPAMids.net > -- Michael Thompson m_thompson@NOSPAMids.net Article: 18447 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:12:07 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 45 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18447 The power supply in my HP 88780 1/2" tape drive died last night. It's going to be difficult to make tapes for the KS10 now. The KS10 didn't like the KERMIT tape. It read the label OK but said that the data wasn't in backup format. Just for yucks I entered 2002 as the year when the KS10 booted. It showed a date of 102, reported parity errors, and then said that the RP06 had multiple logical units on it. It rebooted just fine with a pre-Y2K date. In article , m_thompson@ids.net says... > >The KS10 just booted from the RP06 and I logged in as the operator. > >Time to learn a lot more about TOPS10. > >In article , m_thompson@ids.net says... >> >>It's been a busy weekend. The RP06 is working just fine on 220VAC >Single-Phase. >>The machine got to the point where it would get a memory refresh error after >>about 3 minutes of run time. I replaced the MMC MOS Memory Controller and that >>problem went away. I reinstalled two of the original MMA MOS Memory Array >>boards and got parity errors. I installed two new MMA boards and it is running >>OK with 256KW. >> >>I booted from the TOPS 7.03 tape and initialized the disk. I had a bunch of >>problems restoring the CUSPS tapes until I did a "set density MTA0: 1600" >>command. The CUSPS 1/2 tape is restored and the CUSPS 2/2 is almost done. >>CREDIR is on the disk so I have everything to make the machine disk bootable. >> >>More to follow. >> >>-- >>Michael Thompson >>m_thompson@NOSPAMids.net >> > >-- >Michael Thompson >m_thompson@NOSPAMids.net > Article: 18451 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:45:44 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3DD40559.D82FFB0C@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3DD42CDF.8A886253@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1037317546 19096 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <3DD42CDF.8A886253@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18451 On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Arthur Krewat wrote: > TOPS-10 on simh said "102" until I y2k'd it. > With the year firmly in 2002, the simulator runs TOPS-10 perfectly. > I don't think the hardware would care. BUt it might :) TOPS-20 had minimal Y2K issues; the most notable being that the DECnet stuff broke (big surprise). KS10 hardware neither knows, nor cares, about years. Time is only kept as an uptime and an OS-interpreted boot time. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article: 18408 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:55:25 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: <3DCF27FA.5940EA4B@bartek.dontspamme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18408 >Very nice! I salivate as we speak! I do have 384KW of boards (six) for the KS10, >in unknown condition. I would love to at least have them tested, if not used :) I would be happy to test any of your KS10 boards. >Anyway, I can't WAIT to get access to that system for a little while, even >just to benchmark some things and see how long it really took. The simulators >have ripped away any recollection of relative speed. I might try stringing serial cables over from the SPARCstation-10 and the PC today. I have a KMC11. If I can find a DUP11 and a synchronous serial Q-bus board then I can connect the KS10 to the VAX 3540 which has Ethernet to the SPARCstation-10 which can dial to the Internet. If I load DECNET on the KS10 then you could telnet to the SPARCstation, telnet to the VAX 3540, and SET HOST to the KS10. The other possibility is to install the DEUNA and get DECNET or TCP/IP working over Ethernet. Relative speed? It's REEEALY SLOOOW. I can't believe how slow a file copy is. Article: 18441 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!dfw-peer!news.verio.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:59:02 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3DCF27FA.5940EA4B@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1037206745 24736 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18441 On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Morten Reistad wrote: > It would be very nice if someone that still has access to real hardware coould > take out a camera and take some pictures; or even better; a video. There's a poor digital image of one of my 2020s on: http://panda.com/tops-20 -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article: 18442 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:26:50 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) References: <3DCF27FA.5940EA4B@bartek.dontspamme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 44 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18442 Picture at: http://users.ids.net/~thompson/PDP10/KS10_4224.jpg Please excuse the mess. It is a work in progress. In article , mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no says... > >According to Michael Thompson : >>>Very nice! I salivate as we speak! I do have 384KW of boards (six) for the KS10, >>>in unknown condition. I would love to at least have them tested, if not used :) >> >>I would be happy to test any of your KS10 boards. >> >>>Anyway, I can't WAIT to get access to that system for a little while, even >>>just to benchmark some things and see how long it really took. The simulators >>>have ripped away any recollection of relative speed. > >It would be very nice if someone that still has access to real hardware coould >take out a camera and take some pictures; or even better; a video. > >>I might try stringing serial cables over from the SPARCstation-10 and the PC today. >> >>I have a KMC11. If I can find a DUP11 and a synchronous serial Q-bus board then I can >>connect the KS10 to the VAX 3540 which has Ethernet to the SPARCstation-10 which can >>dial to the Internet. If I load DECNET on the KS10 then you could telnet to the >>SPARCstation, telnet to the VAX 3540, and SET HOST to the KS10. >> >>The other possibility is to install the DEUNA and get DECNET or TCP/IP working over >>Ethernet. >> >>Relative speed? It's REEEALY SLOOOW. I can't believe how slow a file copy is. > >-- Morten Reistad > > Article: 18444 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!twister.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Message-ID: References: <3DCF27FA.5940EA4B@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:10:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.211.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyc.rr.com 1037254201 66.108.211.219 (Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:10:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:10:01 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18444 On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:30:02 GMT, mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: snip.. >It would be very nice if someone that still has access to real hardware coould >take out a camera and take some pictures; or even better; a video. http://www.corestore.org/DEC2020.jpg is mine; I'll get a bunch of better pics next trip over - hopefully before end of year. Mike http://www.corestore.org FOR SALE - Al Qaeda rifle. Never fired. Dropped once. Article: 18445 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!opentransit.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: RCS / RI Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (a real one) Status Update Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:10:26 -0500 Organization: The Retro-Computing Society of RI Message-ID: <3DD3AED2.6BA2DCC8@osfn.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3DCF27FA.5940EA4B@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18445 Morten Reistad wrote: > > It would be very nice if someone that still has access to real hardware coould > take out a camera and take some pictures; or even better; a video. There are a number of files describing the DECsystems at RCS/RI and images of the systems on our "works in progress" website: http://starfish.osfn.org/rcs/DECsystem/ Also see: http://starfish.osfn.org/rcs/2020/images/ But these are of poor quality. They were taken about a year ago when we were checking out the hardware. -mikeu -- The Retro-Computing Society of RI, Inc. (401) 861-1977 25 Eagle St Bldg 5 Ste 206 http://www.osfn.org/rcs/ Providence RI 02908 telnet://kronos.egr-ri.ids.net Article: 18582 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: KS10 (Real One) Status Update Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:10:44 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:18582 I have been traveling a lot lately so I haven't made much progress on the KS10. I started working on the master TU45. Both the power supply and the servo control board have problems. I will pick up replacements on Monday. I formatted another RP06 pack and installed TOPS10 7.03 on it. I still can't make a distribution tape so I haven't customized the TOPS kernel. I might try installing TOPS20 or ITS on a pack next week. I now have a KMC11 and a DUP11 for the KS10 and I have a VAX that talks DECnet. If I can find a synchronous serial Qbus board and a synchronous null-modem then I should be able to get the KS10 to talk to the VAX. I also have an Ethernet board for the KS10. That should be an interesting project... Have a merry Christmas. Article: 19193 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: KS10 (Real One) Questions Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:27:20 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1047227243 17678 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:19193 On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Michael Thompson wrote: > The KS10 has 4 DZ11s installed. One misbehaves a little during diagnostics, > but the others run just fine. Then remove it. You don't really need 32 serial lines on a KS, do you? Why waste the power on something that you won't use? I recommend that you remove all but one working DZ and keep the other two working DZs as spares. > How do I get a serial terminal to work on a DZ port? I configured the kernel > for 32 serial lines but there is no response on the serial ports. I forget if you are using TOPS-10 or TOPS-20. In TOPS-20 you have to configure the serial port through a SETSPD file that is read at startup. Presumably you have to do much the same on TOPS-10. Beware of 9600 baud lines. Neither the DZ nor the KS can keep up with a lot of 9600 baud activity. > Is it possible to have a PDP11 connected to the KS10 through a KMC/DUP? Yes, if the PDP-11 is talking synchronous protocol to the DUP. > Can the KS10 boot the PDP11 over this connection? No. > What front end software could run in the PDP11? TCP/IP? DECnet? DECnet is the only thing that any KS monitor supports for the KMC/DUP. DEC distributed Phase II DECnet with TOPS-20 4.1, but I got Phase IV working under contract to them (TOPS-20 4.2). I have the files necessary to upgrade TOPS-20 4.1 sources to TOPS-20 4.2. Although the result works, it's kind of a toy. You have to use *really* small packets (376 bytes). -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article: 19224 of alt.sys.pdp10 Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: dseagrav@lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: KS10 #4469 is safe. Date: 11 Mar 2003 17:27:48 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: <667a2609.0303111727.6470ff0c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.221.39.56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1047432468 478 127.0.0.1 (12 Mar 2003 01:27:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2003 01:27:48 GMT Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:19224 KS10 #4469 has been moved from my mother's house to my current residence. The machine was removed intact, but we abandoned the TU45 there as it was unrepairable and we have nowhere to put it here. It's currently in the garage - We're trying to get pulleys and so on to move it into the house or at least the basement, but worst-case scenario we plan to wrap the machine in blankets and plastic bags and hope the cold temperature doesn't do too much damage. Plans are to try hacking the PDP11 MSCP disk controller (Viking UDT, MSCP on the UNIBUS end and SCSI on the other end) into working with TOPS10 or TOPS20, assuming I can get the system into the basement where I can work on it. Article: 19865 of alt.sys.pdp10 X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <8e2795d07cd7cfac569dd6ec38d58aaf@TeraNews> Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!dfw-peer!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!TeraNews!not-for-mail Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:16:13 GMT Lines: 22 From: Michael Ross Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: System serial numbers? References: <3EC82B9B.9040908@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: dfw-artgen alt.sys.pdp10:19865 On 20 May 2003 00:23:10 GMT, budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) wrote: >In article <3EC82B9B.9040908@bellatlantic.net>, >bob smith wrote: >>Recently I saw a page that had a list of numbers for DecSystems.... >>I can't seem to find it. Can someone tell me where it is please? >>Anyone know the serial number of NSS? > >I have one Alan Martin and I worked on at; > >ftp://www.ultimate.com/pdp10/bucs20-anon/decapr/ > >None of the files contain the string NSS. > >If you know of any not in the file, post them here, or reply to me. FWIW, I finally tracked down the serial number of my 2020: MR04553 Mike http://www.corestore.org The avalanche has already started It is too late for the pebbles to vote...