Article 3272 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 24 Jan 2001 14:02:33 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 20 Sender: alderson+news@panix2.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 980362953 29599 166.84.0.227 (24 Jan 2001 19:02:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2001 19:02:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3272 "Alan H. Martin" writes: > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. By this I assume you mean the native-mode Tops-20 compiler, right? Based on the Tops-10 compiler originally out of Rutgers, Chuck Hedrick's implementation of Wirth's original CDC 6600 compiler? The Hedrick compiler was common at Tops-20 as well as Tops-10 academic sites for a very long time. My first exposure to it was at UChicago, after a friend and I had worked for several months to bootstrap the BYTE "Tiny Pascal" inter- preter (using BASIC+2 for Northstar BASIC)--one of the IS systems analysts had a friend at 3M who sent him a copy. That was my intro to compiler design and computer science in general... -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article 3269 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:30:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.213.53 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980353846 24.190.213.53 (Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:30:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:30:46 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3269 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > In article > > , > > Mark Crispin wrote: > ... > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > > > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > > Solution? Burn your PASCAL-10 tape, because we'll only sell the > language on the -20, where it's not a problem. > > Perhaps the compiler could have been fixed. Perhaps the problem wasn't > actually a showstopper. > > Maybe we couldn't have turned a profit after paying for a rewrite. > Maybe the authors were needed for something else. > I don't know. BOCES III in Dix Hills had a Pascal compiler running under TOPS-10 6.03. I remember Gerry Damm had to pull teeth to get it, and then I think we had to fix a few bugs in it ourselves (not by me, before my time). It was a memory hog, but it worked fine. I think it was called PASCAL-10, so it might have been a DEC product. Most students used BASIC-10, so when they started using Pascal, it was a big hit in system performance overall. art k. Article 3265 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:30:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.209 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 980332256 138.88.72.209 (Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:30:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:30:56 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3265 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > In article > > , > > Mark Crispin wrote: > ... > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > > > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. and of course, the extensions beyond 30bit addressing - could not do that cause the vax could not do that. bob > > Solution? Burn your PASCAL-10 tape, because we'll only sell the > language on the -20, where it's not a problem. > > Perhaps the compiler could have been fixed. Perhaps the problem wasn't > actually a showstopper. > > Maybe we couldn't have turned a profit after paying for a rewrite. > Maybe the authors were needed for something else. > I don't know. > /AHM > -- > Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article 3297 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 06:20:37 -0500 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZh3RuafIx/FesaI4831WsovE5aaDmxQn5ihUQYLDWwYQwB8PZd1eGw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2001 11:21:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3297 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. ... > BOCES III in Dix Hills had a Pascal compiler running under TOPS-10 6.03. > I remember Gerry Damm had to pull teeth to get it, and then I think we > had to fix a few bugs in it ourselves (not by me, before my time). > > It was a memory hog, but it worked fine. I think it was called PASCAL-10, > so it might have been a DEC product. Most students used BASIC-10, so > when they started using Pascal, it was a big hit in system performance > overall. PASCAL-10 didn't ship around 1985. Rutgers Pascal (a heavily enhanced copy of someone else's Pascal- the original source was commented in German) was free and well established for the -10 by 1980, and was being upgraded to use extended addressing in the early 80's. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article 3304 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:38:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 980689119 144.132.244.163 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:38:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:38:39 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3304 in article 3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com, Alan H. Martin at AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com wrote on 28/01/2001 22:20: > Arthur Krewat wrote: >> >> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >>> >>> The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on >>> TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as >>> thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > ... >> BOCES III in Dix Hills had a Pascal compiler running under TOPS-10 6.03. >> I remember Gerry Damm had to pull teeth to get it, and then I think we >> had to fix a few bugs in it ourselves (not by me, before my time). >> >> It was a memory hog, but it worked fine. I think it was called PASCAL-10, >> so it might have been a DEC product. Most students used BASIC-10, so >> when they started using Pascal, it was a big hit in system performance >> overall. > > PASCAL-10 didn't ship around 1985. > > Rutgers Pascal (a heavily enhanced copy of someone else's Pascal- the > original source was commented in German) was free and well established > for the -10 by 1980, and was being upgraded to use extended addressing > in the early 80's. The source of this compiler was Hamburg Germany, then Stanford LOTS (maybe Rich might know its history there) and then the Rutgers compiler was derived from the Stanford one. I think the original thread here was Pascal + TOPS-10. Isn't there something wrong with your equation : TOPS-10 + PASCAL + extended addressing where date <= 1985 ??? Maybe on TOPS-20, early 80's and usermode extended addressing. Mark :) Article 3315 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:54:04 -0500 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3A746ACC.9D48BE78@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVazJnXlcy86ZCV4n8Y70xkZY7Rrr0xRZG4c7Hh+t9P0JCAe9aqys4o5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2001 18:55:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3315 Mark Garrett wrote: > > in article 3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com, Alan H. Martin at > AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com wrote on 28/01/2001 22:20: > > > > PASCAL-10 didn't ship around 1985. > > > > Rutgers Pascal (a heavily enhanced copy of someone else's Pascal- the > > original source was commented in German) was free and well established > > for the -10 by 1980, and was being upgraded to use extended addressing > > in the early 80's. > > The source of this compiler was Hamburg Germany, then Stanford LOTS (maybe > Rich might know its history there) and then the Rutgers compiler was derived > from the Stanford one. > > I think the original thread here was Pascal + TOPS-10. Isn't there > something wrong with your equation : TOPS-10 + PASCAL + extended addressing > where date <= 1985 ??? > Maybe on TOPS-20, early 80's and usermode extended addressing. Rutgers Pascal was ported to both the -10 and -20. I used it on the -10 by 1980 if not earlier (my roommate Ken's Othello program was written in Apr-79). Norm Samuelson was starting to have Rutgers Pascal working with extended addressing by 4-Oct-82. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article 3299 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 07:19:59 -0500 Lines: 63 Message-ID: <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ9wscOnUISUGVmeo9cKz68LnPrL8h+HUddccMJ1bNoIYWR32Q2a+KU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2001 12:21:18 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3299 Rich Alderson wrote: > > "Alan H. Martin" writes: > > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > > By this I assume you mean the native-mode Tops-20 compiler, right? ... No, as far as I remember, the Pascal developed at Marlboro was a real layered product to be available for $$$, and was not a productization of Rutgers Pascal. Chuck did indeed refer to the original port of that Pascal to the PDP-10 as ``Pascal-10'' in his ``.REL files'' TOPS-20 list message of 6-Nov-85. However, it was known colloquially as ``Rutgers Pascal'' even when I used it in '80-'81 at Stevens. Chuck didn't object to that name when I used it in EMail to him. On the other hand, PASCAL.HACKERS refers to itself as ``PASCAL-20'' and ``DECSYSTEM-20 PASCAL''. I also see that Dan Murphy's summary of Tuesday, 1-Nov-83 DECUS sessions states that Peter Hurley's ``Engineering Directions'' portion of the 9-noon Product Panel discussed Pascal futures: PASCAL-20 V1, ISO, VAX compatible. PASCAL-10 withdrawn from field test because poor performance on TOPS10. Considering how relatively little resources were used to develop PASCAL-10/20, the VAX compatibility reference makes me wonder if it was a port of VAX Pascal. >... Based on > the Tops-10 compiler originally out of Rutgers, Chuck Hedrick's implementation > of Wirth's original CDC 6600 compiler? PASCAL.MEM states: " This document is an introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 and DECsystem-10 Pascal. This Pascal system is the result of cooperation among a number of different people. It was originally written at the University of Hamburg by a group of people under the supervision of Prof. H.-H. Nagel. This version was developed from Prof. Nagel's by Charles Hedrick, and is maintained by him. Lee Cooprider and others at the University of Southern California have been particularly helpful in supplying improvements, largely to the debugger. A number of compiler bug fixes were supplied by Andrew Hisgen at Carnegie-Mellon University. " The first Pascal implementation was developed at ETH Zurich in Switzerland. I bet a description of the relationship between Wirth and Nagel's group is in Software Practice and Experience, V6#1, pp. 29-42: ``D. O. Grosse-Lindemann, H. H. Nagel: Postlude to a PASCAL-Compiler Bootstrap on a DECSystem-10''. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article 3308 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:08:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 980690918 144.132.244.163 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:08:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:08:38 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3308 in article 3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com, Alan H. Martin at AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com wrote on 28/01/2001 23:19: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> "Alan H. Martin" writes: >> >>> The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on >>> TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as >>> thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. >> >> By this I assume you mean the native-mode Tops-20 compiler, right? ... > > No, as far as I remember, the Pascal developed at Marlboro was a real > layered product to be available for $$$, and was not a productization > of Rutgers Pascal. > Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it would be practically useless as a real compiler. Cheers Mark :) Article 3310 of alt.sys.pdp10: Message-ID: <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:38:36 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.49 X-Trace: 28 Jan 2001 07:47:16 -0700, 207.153.6.49 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 22 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.49 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3310 Mark Garrett wrote: pascal compilers > Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about > poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and > probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it > would be practically useless as a real compiler. > My guess it was string handling in pascal that was the killer.A program with a lot of unpacked strings (8 bit?) could take up a lot of room if half words are used. I wish that same rule applied to NEW computers. Here I am running linux with 64 Meg and it still wants MORE. Playing around with a 12 bit FPGA computer design 32k is ample (No not a PDP-8 emulator). Anyhow did not the PDP-8 have a pascal compiler? Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Article 3319 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A74339F.38EE9A88@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:58:39 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Rutgers Pascal for the -10 found? (was Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10) References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 980711919 14476 63.73.218.130 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3319 Alan H. Martin wrote: > Rutgers Pascal (a heavily enhanced copy of someone else's Pascal- the > original source was commented in German) was free and well established > for the -10 by 1980, and was being upgraded to use extended addressing > in the early 80's. Is this "Rutgers Pascal" the same as DECUS entry 10-344 and 10-345, as can be found at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0530/ and http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0531/ ? Certainly Rutgers is referred to in DEBUG.PAS and PASCAL.OPR. I'll have to find the abstracts to match this tape so it the entries can be properly indexed! (Yet another thing to do in my copious free time...) Tim. Article 3331 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-239 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 11:46:00 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <953pfl$kvs$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZqRlk2diOxZRlpeSStOGVCsLCvBGneq5YXBTsJhiW+RLJvbryIXu40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2001 12:59:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3331 In article <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >Mark Garrett wrote: > pascal compilers > >> Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about >> poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and >> probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it >> would be practically useless as a real compiler. >> >My guess it was string handling in pascal that was the killer.A program >with a lot of unpacked strings (8 bit?) could take up a lot of room >if half words are used. Well, I'm still trying to figure out who was doing the work. If Norm Samuelson was in charge, then Mike Brown wasn't a supervisor. Mike was in my group in Software Support and Norm was in development. In any event, none of those people knew how to do a development project which is key to getting a piece of software out of the door. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Article 3357 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:12:37 -0500 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3A78B805.6232B01B@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> <9515hc$n26$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com> <956f77$526$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYUJYTUur6QXuTJ02tRUwDQz/iwxumjjrc1Cqor3g24OoxMQ2ByHukS X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 2001 01:12:46 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3357 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com>, > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >> Do you remember who worked on PASCAL? I sure don't remember. > > > >Paul Robinson, at least; maybe Rita Tillson[-Vasak], too. > >Mike Brown was in charge. > > That doesn't make sense. Software development and software > maintenance groups were still separate at that time. ... I first heard about the reorg from Karl Kunkel on Tuesday, 18-May-82. >... Perhaps > you mean Dick Brown rather than Mike? No; Mike Brown and I discussed shifting KL2137's PASCAL-20 files from PS: to PS: upon field test entry on the morning of 2-Feb-83. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article 3359 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:21:32 -0500 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3A78BA1C.9BD21DD0@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaMC1lKdx6z4uxWPUVdU1m8E4Nq0M1K8xXFpbprTzQMG5Yc+AwpVNR1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 2001 01:21:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3359 Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Mark Garrett wrote: > pascal compilers > > > Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about > > poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and > > probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it > > would be practically useless as a real compiler. > > > My guess it was string handling in pascal that was the killer.A program > with a lot of unpacked strings (8 bit?) could take up a lot of room > if half words are used. A code generation thought: Unpacked arrays are a way of trading space for speed. Did any -10 compilers know how to transform a loop to use halfword instructions to access 18-bit bytes faster than a straightforward ILDB/IDPB of an 18-bit byte pointer? (If there even *are* such faster code sequences?) If not, a Pascal implementation that actually wanted unpacked char arrays to be faster than packed char would store one char per 36-bit word. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com Article 5506 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Algol-10 Date: 03 Jul 2001 21:14:02 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 16 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 994209242 7414 166.84.0.228 (4 Jul 2001 01:14:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2001 01:14:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5506 "Henry W. Miller" writes: > Was there an "official" Pascal for the PDP-10? While at DEC, I wrote a major > piece of code (under protest) in Pascal, and I believe that this version came > from Stanford. The LOTS compiler, perhaps? There was eventually a Pascal-20, essentially a cleaned-up version of the Rutgers compiler (also the source of the LOTS compiler), which in turn was based on the PDP-10 port of the original CDC 6600 compiler. Pascal-20 has a COMND%-based interface. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article 5521 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn3feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!news From: Christopher Stacy Subject: PASCAL [was: Algol-10] Message-ID: Sender: CStacy@BONK Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 05:33:13 GMT References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b176.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5521 >>>>> On Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:59:03 GMT, Henry W Miller ("Henry") writes: Henry> Was there an "official" Pascal for the PDP-10? While at DEC, I wrote a Henry> major piece of code (under protest) in Pascal, and I believe that this Henry> version came from Stanford. On ITS we used a version of PASCAL that was for TOPS-10, running under an emulator. This was necessary for TeX.