Article 5170 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!WCG!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions... Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 04:52:09 GMT References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 36 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5170 In article <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: >Eric Smith wrote: >> >> Joe Smith wrote: >> > Tymshare had 13 KL's, 13 SA-10 PDP-10 to IBM channel adaptors, and >> > a large disk farm of IBM-compatible disks. > > ADPNS's systems shared a similar configuration using SA-10s. This >is interesting. > >> Why did Tymshare go with IBM-style disk drives? Cost? Performance? >> Interchange? Some other reason? > > One possible explanation is space. ADP used a Calcomp 1035/235 >(controller/drive(s)) disk string which placed a pair of 200 Mb(?) >drives atop one another yielding quite an adavantage in the sense >of floor space. The "footprint" of an eight-drive string of 235s with >their controller was the size (roughly) of 5 RP06es. Power might have >been a consideration, too, as there was a single string controller >versus a DCL for each drive. Add Rapidata to the list of SA-10 users. IIRC, we had up to 8 systems with IBM disks and tapes attached at the peak (after National Data Corp brought down a few systems from a couple of their previous acquisitions in Massachusetts to New Jersey.) I think we started with Itel 3330 type disks and real IBM tapes drives. One fun story around the installation was Stewart Nelson? making a field modification without prints to get things going. The systems type who told this story was almost as impressed by the fact the SA-10 cabinet was mostly empty. Space would definitely have been a consideration in addition to cost. Sam Article 5163 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions... Date: 23 May 1999 17:20:45 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7i9ddd$gfi$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <7hr9ec$prs$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <3744B3B1.7B84519@stoneweb.com> <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf7-025.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5163 In article <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com>, carl.friend@stoneweb.com says... > >Eric Smith wrote: >> >> Why did Tymshare go with IBM-style disk drives? Cost? Performance? >> Interchange? Some other reason? > > One possible explanation is space. ADP used a Calcomp 1035/235 >(controller/drive(s)) disk string which placed a pair of 200 Mb(?) >drives atop one another yielding quite an adavantage in the sense >of floor space. The "footprint" of an eight-drive string of 235s with >their controller was the size (roughly) of 5 RP06es. Power might have >been a consideration, too, as there was a single string controller >versus a DCL for each drive. It was cost! The CalComps were only used in the old First Data facility in Waltham. Ann Arbor (Cyphernetics) used Memorex. Well, actually Ann Arbor also used CalComps after we closed the Waltham facility and moved all the systems to AA. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 5172 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions... Date: 25 May 1999 13:25:28 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf1-019.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5172 In article , weiner@world.std.com says... > >One fun story around the installation >was Stewart Nelson? making a field modification without prints to get things >going. The systems type who told this story was almost as impressed by the >fact the SA-10 cabinet was mostly empty. Also mostly(?) empty was the space for the SA-10 front panel. Systems Concepts kept promising they would produce front panels complete with indicator lights. In fact they actually produced a prototype which was delivered to one of the companies (Cyphernetics, First Data, TSL, etc.) which made up ADP's Network Services Division. For years it resided in the office of someone at ADP, but now I can't remember who's. I do recall that the owner told me it was the only SA-10 front panel I'd be likely to ever see. As I type this I'm thinking I'll email some old ADP'ers and see if I can get the straight story. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 5177 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions... Date: 26 May 1999 13:43:02 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf1-014.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5177 In article <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com>, jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com says... > >In article , weiner@world.std.com says... >> >>One fun story around the installation >>was Stewart Nelson? making a field modification without prints to get things >>going. The systems type who told this story was almost as impressed by the >>fact the SA-10 cabinet was mostly empty. > >Also mostly(?) empty was the space for the SA-10 front panel. Systems Concepts >kept promising they would produce front panels complete with indicator lights. >In fact they actually produced a prototype which was delivered to one of the >companies (Cyphernetics, First Data, TSL, etc.) which made up ADP's Network >Services Division. For years it resided in the office of someone at ADP, but >now I can't remember who's. I do recall that the owner told me it was the only >SA-10 front panel I'd be likely to ever see. As I type this I'm thinking I'll >email some old ADP'ers and see if I can get the straight story. I've actually located what is probably the only extant SA-10 front panel in the world, currently residing in Brisbane, Oz. I've been offered a jpeg. If there's any interest I could post it here, even though this is not an "alt.binaries" group. Alternatively I could post it on my web site. The person who owns the SA-10 front panel also owns a KA-10 front panel, which he used to keep in his office when he worked in the States. Whenever I visited I always tried to leave the switches reading 254000,,407. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 5183 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Gregory A. Scott" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:44:28 -0400 Lines: 74 Message-ID: <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> X-Trace: lE2Qkth7PEI37LOJ0wSaMOZb5JQUrSQOsNykJdnAktU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1999 00:44:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5183 John Everett wrote in message <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com>... >I've actually located what is probably the only extant SA-10 front panel in the >world, currently residing in Brisbane, Oz. I've been offered a jpeg. If there's >any interest I could post it here, even though this is not an "alt.binaries" >group. Alternatively I could post it on my web site. I worked at Applied Logic (aka "Defies Logic") in Boston from 77 to 79. Four of the KA10s from the old New Jersey Applied Logic (36, 71, 57, and 69) were assembled in the old computer room of the Boston Stock Exchange at 53 State St. The KAs were not completely stock, having been fitted with lamp test switches and other less useful hacks. There was a large assortment of home built hardware, like the "10-8 Channel" allowed up to 8 PDP-8s to have a DMA channel from/to 10 memory - the straight 8's were used to serve up terminals and the used to also connect to huge black boxes which were rumored to be 40 meg disks. Along with two "normal" SA10s, we also had what was described by Fred Wright (?) of SC as an "SA10A". The SA10A was distinguished from the run of the mill SA10B by having only two IBM selector channels, no mode for tape drives, and (here's the point) a Front Panel. The panel had a quaint home built appearance with about 45 lights and one huge rotary knob, which looked like it came off of a 1950s Philco radio. The knob was supposed to select the display for the lights. The rest of the panel was blank - there were no legends or descriptions. It wasn't all that great of an enhancement. Most of the lights didn't work at all - they may have just been burnt out. If you tried to move the knob from the "normal" 1-o'clock setting, you would sometimes be rewarded with a crash. I think our hardware guy unplugged the rotary switch sometime in the winter of 77, as its size and prominence invited random twirling by the operations staff. The SA10A also required some minor code hacks in the SA10 device driver package, but I forget what they were... I think there was an FTSA10A switch or something like that. (Hey, this was 20+ years ago.) The SA10A was attached to System A (36/71) along with about 12 ME10s and some TU30s which were salvaged from the First Data fire. Keeping ME10s running was a real challenge for the hardware guys... when one of them broke, reconfiguring was fun because a fair number of the address switches were flaky, and some were soldered to the "1" or "0" position. System A ran a string of Memorex RP06-style drives on the SA10A. System B (57/69) had ME10s and 128K of Cambridge Memory and a normal SA10, on which we ran a couple strings of the Memorex drives, a string of STC tapes (OEM TU70s), and an IBM 1440 line printer. Later we got a real KL10 (system 1235), all fitted with a real RP06 and two PDP11s. Another SA10 was acquired somehow along with a bunch of Memorex drives and a port kit for the STC tapes. The RP06 became DSKB, the CFE ran KLDCP, and the other 11 just sat there cause we used DCA's Smart-8s for terminals. I left the Boston area in 79 (returning in 86 to work in MRO1). I'm not sure what happened to Applied Logic or the SA10-A, but it very well could have gone to Brisbane. Ahh, the memories. Greg Scott greg@scott.com Article 5190 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) Date: 27 May 1999 15:19:57 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf8-041.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5190 In article <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, gscott@scott.com says... > >I worked at Applied Logic (aka "Defies Logic") in Boston from 77 to 79. > > >I left the Boston area in 79 (returning in 86 to work in MRO1). I'm not sure >what happened to Applied Logic or the SA10-A, but it very well could have >gone to Brisbane. I had a number of friends working at Defies Logic back in the late '70s, and visited the facility on numerous occasions. What a mess! The SA-10 panel I've located is not in Brisbane after all, but residing in Conway, New Hampshire. Bob Christiansen, the owner, will be in the States this summer (ours) and has promised a picture when he gets to his NH place. This is not the Defies Logic unit (which I didn't know existed), but the one from Time Sharing Limited (TSL) in London. Bob wrote the front panel driver code for TOPS-10 and was awarded the front panel when the SA-10s were retired. Bob will probably be surprised to find that another front panel existed. I'll have to try to get in touch with Ben Vaughn to see what he knows about its history. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 5195 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Gregory A. Scott" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:07:57 -0400 Lines: 84 Message-ID: <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> X-Trace: sKEgUhxE/scMM66cgNgrNtOOnnAmoMRINMQE/CJ+x6A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1999 18:07:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5195 John Everett wrote in message <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com>... >In article <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, gscott@scott.com says... > >I had a number of friends working at Defies Logic back in the late '70s, and >visited the facility on numerous occasions. What a mess! System A, a stunning number of ME10s, and the ex-FDC TU30s were in one room. The big room held the rest of A (SA10A, a couple of 10-8 channels), all of the comm junk, and all of System B. For some reason the floor was pretty new, and when I got there the big room was so empty in there that the operators used to have races on roller skates and indoor hockey. >The SA-10 panel I've located is not in Brisbane after all, but residing in >Conway, New Hampshire. Bob Christiansen, the owner, will be in the States this >summer (ours) and has promised a picture when he gets to his NH place. This is >not the Defies Logic unit (which I didn't know existed), but the one from Time >Sharing Limited (TSL) in London. Bob wrote the front panel driver code for >TOPS-10 and was awarded the front panel when the SA-10s were retired. Wow, it must be a whole different beast than the one on the SA10A. It would have been really cool to have lights somewhere... but since the things pretty much never broke, you didn't really need them. Besides, since the SA10A was so wierd and almost a prototype, I don't think its front panel was much more than a prototype debugging tool. That was a cool system, with the FDC TU30s showing flame marks on them, and two big lines of ME10s facing each other. Late at night, if I was bored or waiting for a build or something, you could play "repeat examine next". Since it was a dual-KA (DECsystem-1055) with 256K (a full 18 bits of memory), you could go to the OPSER terminal, :SET RUN NO CPU1, walk over to the slave, press HALT, examine some random location, then select REPEAT and EXAMINE NEXT. When the address would get to 777777 it would wrap to zero and you would just go around and around. The ME10s would flash away, depending on how they were interleaved. It was fun to watch. When you are done, just start the slave at 407 (or was it 403?), then walk over to OPSER and :SET RUN CPU1 Hey MRO guys! Remember when the tri-SMP 10 in Marlboro (1026/1042/1322) was running backups, the light show was just awesome? KL1026 was the TOPS-10 development system and it had about one oddball device of everything on it, whole bunches of all kinds of disks, including a big box of Ampex memory and two strings of TU70/72/73s. OBTW, as far as I know 1042 was the last real 10 that ran as KL1026, in NIO. Even though it was a KL10D (with the big tall cabs), it had 4 meg of internal KL10E memory and a NIA20 wedged into it. Nice, tidy little package. At the end, it had something like 4 RP06s on it. It also booted up as gidney for the random -20 stuff. Fitting that system would be the last one in "Engineering". (I know, cause I shut the lights off over there.) >Bob will probably be surprised to find that another front panel existed. I'll >have to try to get in touch with Ben Vaughn to see what he knows about its >history. Oh yes Ben worked on that thing, he will remember it. Ben spent many long nights at Defies Logic keeping that senior hardware running. One day I came in and System B was down. Ben had diagnosed the problem as a bad chip on the SA10. Components just plugged in to a wirewrap kinda backplane, so it ought to be a 10 second job to plug in another chip. The chip was something like a 16 input NAND gate. Ben looked all around trying to find this part, which should be common enough. Unfortunately SC had the world's supply of whatever this rare chip was. At this time Defies Logic wasn't paying any SC bills (not paying bills was a way of life there), and SC wouldn't give us the chip till we had paid for a couple SA10s, the latest Fred Wright code, and some other stuff. Meanwhile the main revenue producing system was DOWN. Finally, Ron wired SC the cash, SC set us a 32 cent chip, and we were back on the air. That place was nuts, but it was also a lot of fun. Greg Scott greg@scott.com Article 5207 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Gregory A. Scott" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:13:47 -0400 Lines: 69 Message-ID: <7iplac$nvq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <37471D12.98C2F010@stoneweb.com> <7ie8c8$ifc$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7igtp6$9tm$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: FL+hmzsSw1U3rlIqm0utaAWqig3wbbL32w4rR/OyRMw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1999 21:13:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5207 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <7iof1c$t08$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>... >>Hey MRO guys! Remember when the tri-SMP 10 in Marlboro >>(1026/1042/1322) was >>running backups, the light show was just awesome? >What light show? Barb, the Ampex may have been installed you left. F-S eventually supported Ampex ARM10 memory, and the 1026/1042/1322 ran from that one box with 4 meg in it. It had a translucent front cover with lots of lights inside. F-S ditched the old MF10 boxes, which had labels like "S/N PROTO" and "S/N BREAD" just after official support was obtained for Ampex. KL1026 of that era featured RH10/DF10C and RH20s for the RP0x, DX20s talking to RP20s and dual ported TX02/03/TU70/72/73s. The light show was featured on the Ampex, on the SELECT A B lights on the drives, and the TU7x drives. >We had to have all those oddball devices because we supported >them. If we supported a piece of hardware, it was a requirement >that we be able to test the software and use them for debugging. Yeah I remember seeing a card punch on 1026, never mind one of every kinda front end, ANF10 included. >As a matter of fact, we had to keep a 7-track tape drive on >the end of one of those TU70 strings because there was still >a customer who ordered 7-track tapes. (It would have been >cheaper just to give them a 9-track but managers didn't seem >to know how to count back then.) Well the code was a little different for 7 track tapes, so it wasn't unreasonable to have one (I think it was designated a TU71, but I may be wrong). >And I don't remember having >AMPEX memory. That was also because of support reasons. JMF >would have loved to have had AMPEX memory but Digital, in its >infinite wisdom (read that idiocy) insisted that we develop >based on its old technology. Our 5-CPU customer site did >use AMPEX so that hardware checkout was covered when we did >the software development. I think that 5 CPU customer was Oak Ridge National Labs. Five KL10s. We also had ARM20 Ampex memory at Energy Enterprises, and it worked very well, once you got the SBUS card timing set properly. >If it weren't for our customers' >cooperation, Digital would have been out of business in 1981. LCG certainly depended on having loyal customers, that's for sure. I was one of them... when I worked at Energy Enterprises in Denver, I had to educate our sales droid on the entire 36 bit product line. This wouldn't be so bad, cause you would get a free lunch. When it came time to order stuff, it helped if you got ahold of the real part numbers then helped the salesdummy fill out the paperwork. (You could always call folks in Marlboro to get those numbers.) The problem really was that all of the good sales people left after they had a bit of experience to work somewhere where they were on commission. I don't blame them, but it could be frustrating putting up with them. Greg greg@scott.com Article 5165 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions... Date: 23 May 1999 18:02:26 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7ia8f2$6qp$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <3744B3B1.7B84519@stoneweb.com> <7i4nm3$msg$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 927507751 204 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5165 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >Joe Smith wrote: >> Tymshare had 13 KL's, 13 SA-10 PDP-10 to IBM channel adaptors, and a large >> disk farm of IBM-compatible disks. >> >> There was also 3 sets of RH20 boards, and one RP06. >... >> Under extremely rare conditions, the RH-20 boards would be installed so >> that the KL could be booted with TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 instead of TYMCOM-X. > >Did you guys actually get DEC to sell you KL10s without even a single RH20 >installed? I didn't expect that they'd offer such a configuration... They all came with RH20s, but some idiot manager decided to make some money bo selling the "unused" hardware. >Why did Tymshare go with IBM-style disk drives? Cost? Performance? The PDP-10s got hand-me-down disks and tapes from the IBM/MVS systems. Fully functional disks at zero cost and the hardware maintenance guys were already familiar with the devices. Only the St. Louis data center inside of McDonnell Douglas had real IBM disks. All the others had Calcomp or Memorex plug-compatible disks. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 5233 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: "Gregory A. Scott" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:52:31 -0400 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7j0oj0$j4d$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <7ii4hd$ef0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7ijnqt$ksi$1@hirame.wwa.com> <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: zPIf6iRnwVkJppy3amtCbZtLuOUDI8YSXxPcW6pr3BI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1999 13:52:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5233 Sam Weiner wrote in message ... >Rapidata had the opposite problem with SC. While trying to clean up the >books prior to National Data Corp buying us, it was determined we had some >SA10s we hadn't paid for and SC wouldn't issue invoices for them. Finally, >the controller and VP of systems went to San Francisco and stood in SC's >offices until everything was cleared up. Their billing was always "casual". In the case I mentioned, Applied Logic never paid them a dime and yet we had three SA10s and one trip from Fred Wright. SC seemed to be a pretty casual company. Greg Article 5235 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) References: <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7j0oj0$j4d$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <37540dac.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 1 Jun 1999 12:43:24 -0500 X-Trace: 1 Jun 1999 12:43:24 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 13 Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5235 In article <7j0oj0$j4d$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, Gregory A. Scott wrote: >Their billing was always "casual". In the case I mentioned, Applied Logic >never paid them a dime and yet we had three SA10s and one trip from Fred >Wright. > >SC seemed to be a pretty casual company. I think I heard something similar about them forgetting to charge Datability too. Yet SC is still in business! John Wilson D Bit Article 5230 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!ix.netcom.com!netcom2!alderson From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ] In-Reply-To: Eric Smith's message of 28 May 1999 00:03:55 -0700 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7hu6ll$j8n$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <7huao7$j7d@weyl.math.psu.edu> <7hucpm$500$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hug95$jce@weyl.math.psu.edu> <7i0pip$nrh$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <7i8msa$u94$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:44:53 GMT Lines: 40 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5230 alt.folklore.computers:131161 In article Eric Smith writes: >OK. So a typical scenario might have been: >1) Buy a PDP-10 >2) Obtain a copy of TOPS-10 licensed to run on the PDP-10 >3) Buy an SC30 >Question: >What software do you run on the SC30? You run the Tops-10 that you obtained with your PDP-10, having added the SC mods to the sources. You had to call SC rather than DEC/Digital for software support if you couldn't fix it yourself; Fred Wright was pretty good. The general thought was that you had probably executed step 1+2 (you couldn't get the hardware without the OS, any more than you could get the OS without the hardware) sometime in the 1970s, and wanted to go faster in the 1980s or 1990s. Then, in article <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com>, R. Terry McCutchen () wrote: >What is an SC30? It was SC's first model of PDP-10 clone, roughly 2.4 times as fast as a KL10 on an average job mix. It came with an SA channel, an MI channel (Massbuss), a CI channel, and an EI channel (NIA-20 workalike, down to the bad design decisions) for I/O; up to 8MW of memory, although they didn't get Tops-20 to use more than 4MW as long as I had a machine--the changes done by S** G******* were lost in a head crash on an unbacked-up disk on their KI, and no one could re-create them. It was technically an SC-30M, intended to be a multiprocessor box; the same processor was used in the SC-25 (uniprocessor) and SC-20 (slowed clock uniCPU). The SC-40 was the follow-on, with screaming floating-point. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 5236 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!netcom2!alderson From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ] In-Reply-To: jmfbahciv@aol.com's message of Tue, 01 Jun 99 10:09:54 GMT Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7hu6ll$j8n$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <7huao7$j7d@weyl.math.psu.edu> <7hucpm$500$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7hug95$jce@weyl.math.psu.edu> <7i0pip$nrh$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <7i8msa$u94$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:58:56 GMT Lines: 24 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5236 alt.folklore.computers:131201 In article <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article , > alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote: >>You run the Tops-10 that you obtained with your PDP-10, having added the SC >>mods to the sources. You had to call SC rather than DEC/Digital for software >>support if you couldn't fix it yourself; Fred Wright was pretty good. >So was there an SCSER.MAC instead of KLSER.MAC? Probably not, just some mods to KLSER if necessary--SC did a *real* KL clone, as far as possible, unlike XKL: They wanted old *system* software to run without a re-compile if at all possible, so did their best to duplicate the behaviour of a KL. (We re-implemented the PDP-10 architecture with enhancements like hardware support for the whole 30-bit extended address range, and changed the IO instructions to support our backplane model and our peripherals, so we're a PDP-10 clone rather than a KL clone.) -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 5238 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ] Date: 1 Jun 1999 16:39:12 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7j1qv0$b8a$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 928280359 17002 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5238 alt.folklore.computers:131207 In article <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>What software do you run on the SC30? >> >>You run the Tops-10 that you obtained with your PDP-10, >>having added the SC mods to the sources. You had to call >>SC rather than DEC/Digital for software >>support if you couldn't fix it yourself; Fred Wright was pretty good. > >So was there an SCSER.MAC instead of KLSER.MAC? Nope. System Concepts prided themselves in the fact that their machines were bug-for-bug compatible with KLs. You could run an unmodified TOPS-20 MONITR.EXE on their machines. The SC30 hardware emulated having one or more DTE interfaces. The -10 software could speak primary and secondary protocol to the emulated PDP-11 console front end. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" Article 5244 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.wwa.com!not-for-mail From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: SA10 front panel (was Re: Multiple stupid TOPS-10 questions...) Date: 2 Jun 1999 13:08:35 GMT Organization: Everett Associates Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7j3acj$dcb$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <7imm1u$ieq$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7j0oj0$j4d$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <37540dac.0@news.wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: poolf7-037.wwa.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5244 In article <37540dac.0@news.wizvax.net>, wilson@dbit.com says... > >In article <7j0oj0$j4d$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, >Gregory A. Scott wrote: >>Their billing was always "casual". In the case I mentioned, Applied Logic >>never paid them a dime and yet we had three SA10s and one trip from Fred >>Wright. >> >>SC seemed to be a pretty casual company. > >I think I heard something similar about them forgetting to charge Datability >too. Yet SC is still in business! Also the case at ADP. At one time we probably had the largest collection of SA-10s in the world, and perhaps half of them were actually paid for. We were convinced that whenever Mike and Stew noticed that the coffers were a little low they'd issue a few invoices. I think eventually things got straightened out, at least to the satisfaction of OUR auditors. -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett Article 5240 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ] Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:39:15 -0700 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7j1qv0$b8a$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 928287557 22568 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: hatk To: Joe Smith In-Reply-To: <7j1qv0$b8a$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5240 alt.folklore.computers:131211 On 1 Jun 1999, Joe Smith wrote: > Nope. System Concepts prided themselves in the fact that their machines were > bug-for-bug compatible with KLs. You could run an unmodified TOPS-20 > MONITR.EXE on their machines. The SC30 hardware emulated having one or more > DTE interfaces. The -10 software could speak primary and secondary protocol > to the emulated PDP-11 console front end. That wasn't always the case. I ported SA10 support (as I recall, the code was ISI's), and wrote FA10 support, for the SC30M during the 3 months that I worked at SC in late summer/early fall of 1984. The FA10 was for disks, the SA10 was for tapes. The FA10 went through a port selector device called something like "IU10". I was supposed to hack Fred Wright's TOPS-10 code and plop it into TOPS-20. That made no sense at all, at least not if I was going to use PHYSIO, and I certainly wasn't going to write a standalone disk driver that didn't use PHYSIO. But then came up all these other problems, such as how to set up the PHYSIO device type tables, not to mention the startup device probes (the IU didn't like having non-existant device addresses accessed). "You're supposed to configure that at MONGEN time." Right. They were still thinking of in the days when you rebuilt the monitor when you reconfigured your hardware. I ended up wiring in the parameters for the Memorex drive (essentially, an RP06) that the prototype SC30M used. SC was very surprised when Stanford told them "no sale unless it runs an unmodified MONITR.EXE, including exact emulation of RH20 and NIA20". I don't think that SC ever sold an SC30M using SA10/FA10. -- Mark -- * RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State. * * Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message. * Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 5243 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Path: news3.best.com!news1.best.com!144.212.100.101.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mathworks.com!ix.netcom.com!netcom2!alderson From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ] In-Reply-To: Mark Crispin's message of Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:39:15 -0700 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7io175$6cc$1@brokaw.wa.com> <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7j1qv0$b8a$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:49:45 GMT Lines: 23 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5243 alt.folklore.computers:131241 In article Mark Crispin writes: >SC was very surprised when Stanford told them "no sale unless it runs an >unmodified MONITR.EXE, including exact emulation of RH20 and NIA20". I >don't think that SC ever sold an SC30M using SA10/FA10. I didn't know that it was our requirement! However, the box we took delivery of came with no MI or CI to start with, so we had to use a spare string of single-density IBM 3380 disks for a while. We always used a pair of STC tape drives on the SA channel, much faster than the TU-78s on our KLs (though all that pneumatic stuff was a bitch to keep going). Once the MI channel was running, we started using an RP07 instead of a 3380, and put the box into production when it could join the CFS cluster with the success of the CI channel. So we *did* use SA10, just not for disks in production. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now Article 5245 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 licensing [was Re: TOPS-10 SMP (was Re: Linux popularity) ] Date: 2 Jun 1999 12:27:42 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7j40je$1e0$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <373310cc@newsfeed.one.net> <7j0i0i$5ni$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <7j1qv0$b8a$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 928351674 225 inwap@206.184.139.134 Xref: news3.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5245 alt.folklore.computers:131244 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >On 1 Jun 1999, Joe Smith wrote: >> Nope. System Concepts prided themselves in the fact that their machines were >> bug-for-bug compatible with KLs. You could run an unmodified TOPS-20 >> MONITR.EXE on their machines. The SC30 hardware emulated having one or more >> DTE interfaces. The -10 software could speak primary and secondary protocol >> to the emulated PDP-11 console front end. > >That wasn't always the case. ... I >don't think that SC ever sold an SC30M using SA10/FA10. Mark speaks from experience. I realize now that I misspoke. My statement above was based on a sale pitch we (Tymshare/McDonnel Douglas) received while visiting the facilities. They said they could run "your monitor" (TOPS-10 and/or TYMCOM-X) and did not actually say "TOPS-20" to us. But TYMCOM-X does all of its terminal I/O via DMA from a Tymnet Engine. We did not believe they could emulate the Engine properly in the time frame they mentioned, and therefore did not buy any CPUs from Systems Concepts. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"