Article 6385 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.unix.tru64,comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.sys.dec Subject: Re: Higher prices for Alpha processors Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:06:10 -0700 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3bc2f4b4@siufuxsun02.unifr.ch> <3BC5AEA5.B544BB8C@gtech.com> <3BC5FE2C.396F328A@videotron.ca> <3BC6F8E7.339CFD92@gtech.com> <4liqstoobpn8cn82ab7r6vumh7a3jlrchb@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1003345572 21348 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: nobu To: Alan Greig In-Reply-To: <4liqstoobpn8cn82ab7r6vumh7a3jlrchb@4ax.com> Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com comp.unix.tru64:4490 comp.os.vms:43525 alt.sys.pdp10:6385 comp.sys.dec:6959 On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Alan Greig wrote: > wsmr-simtel20.army.mil was one of the last holdouts but even ".mil" > couldn't save it from DEC, DEC had nothing to do with it. Speaking as someone who was there, SIMTEL20 was killed by a combination of factors: 1) perceived costs of ownership and maintenance. 2) perceived irrelevance, inappropriateness, and illegality of the archive. 3) perceived superiority of AT&T 3B2 systems as "modern" Internet engines. 4) politics. The less said about this, the better; the individuals involved are now retired. Let's just say that in government, including military, one of the well-used ways to get at someone you loathe is to attack his subordinates and their projects. Note my usage of the word "perceived". We are not talking about the perceptions of anyone involved with SIMTEL20. Consider how item (4) interacts with perception. SIMTEL20 suffered a mortal wound over a year before the plug was finally pulled. It was not a happy time. The SIMTEL20 archivist, and especially the fellow who was the heart and soul of the SIMTEL20 TOPS-20 system from its inception, bore the brunt. I have evil memories nonetheless. I ensured that all the email queued on SIMTEL20 was passed on before the plug was pulled. SIMTEL20's last act before the electrons ceased flowing was to foist the last queued but undeliverable message (due to destination host down) onto one of the "modern" 3B2s which replaced it. It is amazing that the archive didn't die, since that was one of the goals of shutting down SIMTEL20. At least in that respect, the bastards lost. There is a lot more to this story than I am telling here, but you'll have to hear it from someone else. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Article 12724 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: sea-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen.news.verio.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3BCDE359.FE81D17B@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.unix.tru64,comp.os.vms,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.sys.dec Subject: Re: Higher prices for Alpha processors References: <3bc2f4b4@siufuxsun02.unifr.ch> <3BC5AEA5.B544BB8C@gtech.com> <3BC5FE2C.396F328A@videotron.ca> <3BC6F8E7.339CFD92@gtech.com> <4liqstoobpn8cn82ab7r6vumh7a3jlrchb@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:00:26 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.140.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1003348911 62.252.140.17 (Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:01:51 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:01:51 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Xref: dfw-artgen.news.verio.net comp.unix.tru64:6346 comp.os.vms:111158 alt.sys.pdp10:12724 comp.sys.dec:21241 Mark Crispin wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Alan Greig wrote: > > wsmr-simtel20.army.mil was one of the last holdouts but even ".mil" > > couldn't save it from DEC, > > DEC had nothing to do with it. > Mark, I was referring to military use of TOPS-20 not being suffficient to save *TOPS-20* from DEC. Not save SIMTEL20 itself. Earlier in this thread, before I added the crossposting, someone had stated that Compaq could never kill VMS because it was used by the military. I just picked SIMTEL20 as a well known example of a site with a ".mil" domain which survived into the relatively recent Internet age. > > It is amazing that the archive didn't die, since that was one of the goals > of shutting down SIMTEL20. At least in that respect, the bastards lost. > Presumably the old DUMPER tapes survive. Just to mark a bit of Arpanet/Internet history it would be nice to bring up the SIMTEL20 archives on an emulated PDP-10 and make it available online. Someone would have to rebuild a KS-10 version of TOPS-20 with Internet support though as the currently booting TOPS-20 V4.1 KS-10 distribution doesn't have Arpanet support built in. Do you still have a buildable KS-10 distribution by any chance? Was there ever an official KS-10 distribution with Arpanet support or was that limited to KL-10 distributions only? > > There is a lot more to this story than I am telling here, but you'll have > to hear it from someone else. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. -- Alan Greig Article: 137907 of alt.folklore.computers Path: iad-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!plonk.apk.net!news.apk.net!not-for-mail From: drushel@apk.net (Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: wsmr-simtel20 shut down 10 years ago today Date: 30 Sep 2003 20:22:45 GMT Organization: Coleco ADAM Online, Ltd. Lines: 109 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: junior.apk.net X-Trace: plonk.apk.net 1064953365 5170 207.54.158.21 (30 Sep 2003 20:22:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@apk.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 2003 20:22:45 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.6-20020816 ("Aerials") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Xref: dfw-artgen alt.folklore.computers:137907 comp.os.cpm:21353 The famous anonymous FTP archive at wsmr-simtel20.army.mil shut down 10 years ago today. It was hosted on a DECsystem 2060. I used it often to search for CP/M and MS-DOS software. I was logged into it when it went offline. Here (courtesy of Google, though I do have my own copy archived somewhere) is the memorial post I made 10 years ago, with the final session log. *Rich* > From: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel) > Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm,alt.folklore.computers > Subject: Farewell to wsmr-simtel20.army.mil > Date: 1 Oct 1993 00:32:34 GMT > Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) > Lines: 85 > Message-ID: <28ftr2$pmc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> > Reply-To: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel) > NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu Today was the shutdown of wsmr-simtel20.army.mil, one of the few (if any?) remaining DECsystem 2060s on the net. This was my favorite site for CP/M software, and I found a few MS-DOS items of interest as well. Out of curiosity and as a tribute, I had an open anonymous ftp session when the machine was disconnected. Here is the session log; thank you, simtel20. *************************** begin transcript ******************************* cwbiol2.cwru.edu> date Thu Sep 30 17:27:05 EDT 1993 cwbiol2.cwru.edu> ftp wsmr-simtel20.army.mil Connected to wsmr-simtel20.army.mil. 220 WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL FTP Server Process 5Z(119)-7 at Thu 30-Sep-93 15:27-MDT Name (wsmr-simtel20.army.mil:drushel): anonymous 331 ANONYMOUS user ok, send real ident as password. Password: 230-WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL is owned and operated by the U.S. Army White Sands 230-Missile Range, New Mexico. SIMTEL20 is usually always up, except for PM 230-on the first Wednesday of each month, 4pm and 8pm Mountain Time (GMT-7). 230-Send problem reports to ACTION@WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL. 230- 230-*** Due to funding constraints, realignment of mission functions, *** 230-*** and Department of Army downsizing; *** 230-*** SIMTEL20 will cease operations !!! *** 230-*** 30 September 1993 - 1600 HOURS Mountain Daylight Time *** 230-*** Only one more day of SIMTEL20 operations! *** 230- 230-Only nine ANONYMOUS FTP logins are allowed during weekday prime time, 5am 230-to 3pm Mountain Time, but 27 all other times. Try restricting your 230-connection attempts to those "other times" for best results. 230-* New ANONYMOUS users: please "get 00-readme.txt" and read it. * 230- 230-SIMTEL20 files are also available by anonymous ftp from mirror sites 230-OAK.Oakland.Edu (141.210.10.117), wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4), 230-archive.orst.edu (128.193.2.13), ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9), nic.funet.fi 230-(128.214.6.100), src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.3.7), nic.switch.ch 230-(130.59.1.40), archie.au (139.130.4.6), or nctuccca.edu.tw (140.111.3.21). 230-See also the CDROM.INF file for CD-ROM availability information. 230- The system will go down today at 17:27:54 until 1-Jan-2000 00:00:00 230 User ANONYMOUS logged in at Thu 30-Sep-93 15:27-MDT, job 33. ftp> [...] ftp> !date Thu Sep 30 18:05:35 EDT 1993 ftp> !finger @wsmr-simtel20.army.mil [wsmr-simtel20.army.mil] User Personal name Job Subsys Idle %CPU TTY Console location ??? 6 2.6 211 Aida.Update.UU.SE 14 4d11 Detached 16 4d11 Detached 18 EXEC 1.6.213 TACOM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL 24 1d23 216 Internet NVT ANONYMOU FTP-only Guest 15 FTPSRT 3:06 0.1 215 Internet NVT 25 FTPSRT 2 0.2 221 devax.admin.athabascau.ca 33 FTPSRT 0.6 227 cwbiol2.BIOL.CWRU.Edu 34 FTPSRT 2.3 231 [192.56.137.12] GHICKS Greg Hicks 29 EXEC 0.6.224 Rota Spain MRC Mark R. Crispin 17 EXEC 6.2.212 panda.wa.com TTAYLOR Thad T. Taylor 19 EXEC 1 0.4. 40 VI102 (9600) W8SDZ Keith Petersen 12 REMARK 0.4.220 Remote: Warren, Michigan ftp> [at this point, I had to leave to pick up my daughter from school. I left the terminal logged in. When I returned to the lab 20 minutes later...] ftp> !date Thu Sep 30 18:25:48 EDT 1993 ftp> !finger @wsmr-simtel20.army.mil [wsmr-simtel20.army.mil] connect: Connection timed out ftp> bye cwbiol2.cwru.edu> *************************** end transcript ********************************* -- Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D. | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature. / A slug, by any other Case Western Reserve University | name, is still a slug by nature. Cleveland, Ohio 44106-7080 U.S.A. | -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"