Article 2754 of alt.sys.pdp10: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!210.147.7.1!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!osa.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: Setting up a IP connection on TOPS-20 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:27:41 GMT References: <9113m0$oji$1@spies.com> Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 56 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2754 In article , Rich Alderson wrote: >aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes: > >> From article , by >> Daniel Seagraves : > >>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Harris Newman wrote: > >>>> I'm unclear, I though I was running 6.1...not four. > >>> Dammit. Response-before-reading again. > >>> Well, you appear to be in the same boat I am in then. I need a monitor >>> that has TCP/IP and the NIA20 in it. TOPS-20 TCPIP appears to have been a >>> seperate product you had to buy. > >> Correct. A tape was located last week. I'm trying to get the 7.0 >> monitor that went with it currently. > >> I have no experience with TOPS-20, what are the files with the extension >> '.key' ? > >The binaries for some of the Tops-20 stuff is encrypted; the files plus the >*.key matching files get run through some program (hey, it's been more than 10 >years since I had to do that) to produce the working stuff. Sources may have >been treated similarly; I forget. I may be wrong but I don't think the distribution tapes were encrypted. The .key files were required when updating layered products. There may have been a couple which required them in Autopatch days. When we went to full file replacement with TSU (post TOPS-10 7.04/TOPS-20 7.0, circa 1988,) .key files were sent out with the last set of layered product distribution tapes. There were one or two products which had bad .key files and thus required the creation of special tapes with just the proper .key file. The encryption wasn't very strong so I'd expect someone who knows this stuff and had the .key file, an encrypted update file, and the decrypted updated file could crack it with today's systems. I think you are right about sources using the same mechanism. In case anyone is interested, most updates in Autopatch days, especially for layered products, involved [FIL]DDT patches of .exe or object modules from libraries. Bundled products with sources often had the equivalent of a diff patch. Creating the DDT patches could be fun. I got to create one for DBMS-20 as my first task (after finding the bug of course) at DEC. It seems like it took as long to create the patch so it would past muster as it did to find the problem after resurrecting the sources and test system. A couple of tests needed to be reversed so fixing the source was easy. The patch was another matter :-) Sam Article 2351 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!barn.net1plus.com!192.168.1.12 From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Setting up a IP connection on TOPS-20 Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <200012102209.QAA29333@blkbox.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.12 X-Original-Trace: 10 Dec 2000 18:34:55 -0500, 192.168.1.12 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:37:24 CST X-Trace: sv2-B730vu0YN6VdjCwHPfDRhIXE5h8ENSxjkUSwauNzfDnlaayxqBcvpJeBGrbvp2TTO9uoCue6eD+YCF4!h30o+iPOufjPnResflL5MX/YGB3Vq6I= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:37:42 -0500 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2351 On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:14:55 -0600, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Harris Newman wrote: > >> I'm unclear, I though I was running 6.1...not four. > >Dammit. Response-before-reading again. > >Well, you appear to be in the same boat I am in then. I need a monitor >that has TCP/IP and the NIA20 in it. TOPS-20 TCPIP appears to have been a >seperate product you had to buy. > >By the way, you have a V6 monitor and a V5 userland, and that's bad. >It ate disk packs when I tried that. (Well, CHECKD did anyway...) Yep, the AN monitor was a separate build, and a different monitor. Also, I think older monitors (e.g. V5 and older) didn't have NIA20 support, only IMP support. I don't think you are likely to find many IMPs (or TIPs) these days. Article 2327 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Setting up a IP connection on TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <9109r6$g6k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Message-ID: References: <9109r6$g6k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:27:38 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 976479693 198.199.189.6 (Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:21:33 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:21:33 CDT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2327 On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Harris S. Newman wrote: > Ok, > I am running Stu's emulator. I have a disk image which is configured > as follows: > Tops-20 Monitor 6.1(16230)-4 > Command processor 5.1(1354) > > When I run telnet, version 4(11) and try to connect to a site, I get: > The imp is dead! TOPS-20 version 4 wants an IMP for the network connection. You need version 6 of TOPS-20 which has Ethernet support. He emulates the NIA20, not an IMP. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver Article 2773 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news! TOPS-20 v4.1 booted successfully Date: 21 Dec 2000 15:06:00 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <91t68o$lds$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <91qh0b$iv7$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <7xpuimmks8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977411160 21948 128.59.39.2 (21 Dec 2000 15:06:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2000 15:06:00 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2773 In article <7xpuimmks8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Paul Rubin wrote: : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: : > I suppose there will be a good reason to do this once we have live : > emulators on the net, assuming they will be able to run TCP/IP (which : > appears doubtful in the TOPS-10 case and pre-6.0(?) TOPS-20). : : There have been some TOPS-10 machines on the net. What's the deal? : I'm not sure that TOPS-10 ever supported TCP/IP internally. At least the early versions of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 required an outboard processor (ANF-10 or DN20) for this. TOPS-20 6.0 and later, as I recall, supported TCP/IP through its own internal Ethernet interface (NI20). I don't know if TOPS-10 ever did this. : I agree, even being able to telnet into a "serial" port would accomplish : most of the goals. No need to use Kermit to transfer files. Just ftp : over a magtape image and mount it ;-) : Using FTP on the Internet that isn't there? - Frank Article 2782 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news! TOPS-20 v4.1 booted successfully Date: 21 Dec 2000 16:50:02 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 39 Message-ID: <91tcbq$po9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <7xpuimmks8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <91t68o$lds$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <91ta8d$v5g$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977417402 26377 128.59.39.2 (21 Dec 2000 16:50:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 2000 16:50:02 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2782 In article <91ta8d$v5g$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, Mark Hittinger wrote: : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: : >I'm not sure that TOPS-10 ever supported TCP/IP internally. At least : >the early versions of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 required an outboard processor : >(ANF-10 or DN20) for this. TOPS-20 6.0 and later, as I recall, supported : >TCP/IP through its own internal Ethernet interface (NI20). I don't know : >if TOPS-10 ever did this. : : There was non-Digital code available in days gone by that supported the : "imp" arpanet front end. Ftp, telnet etc was functional. In those days : there was no DNS yet, everything was still a giant hosts.txt file. : Yes, I remember when you could type: send somebody@? in MM and get a complete list of hostnames :-) : If we could get ahold of that code we might be able to get something barely : adequate in the air. I'd bet some mil.net sites have this software sitting : in some secure tape vault. : : So we'd need an "imp" emulator too :-) : Right, kind of puts the kibosh on that idea. Really, for TOPS-20 anyway, the thing to do is to get the ARPAnet monitor that used the NI. Or, as somebody else suggested, and which would work for any version of TOPS-20, TOPS-10, TENEX, etc, would be a special Telnet server that ran a copy of the PDP-10 emulator underneath itself, through a PTY, in such a way that the OS is already running and the telnet client gets the login prompt (i.e. does not have to sysgen and boot the OS, etc, before logging in). I tend to think this would be a "trivial" change to the telnet server, which would then be assigned to a special high-numbered port. The hard part, I think, would be finding a way to start the PDP-10 emulator in user mode at its login prompt. - Frank Article 2791 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news! TOPS-20 v4.1 booted successfully Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3A424950.301C6AB5@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <91ta8d$v5g$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <91tcbq$po9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A4239DB.463FD5C3@bartek.dontspamme.net> <91tf5c$rqf$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:25:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 977423136 167.206.68.16 (Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:25:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:25:36 EST Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2791 Frank da Cruz wrote: > > : I can write a module for the emulator that would simulate a DZ11 and be able > : to accept telnet's to port 2020. The emulator would be up at all times. > : > That would seem to solve the problem of not making each user sysgen and > start the OS. In this case the OS is already running. The system console > is the PC's actual keyboard and screen (or a window on the screen), and > timesharing is active. Each user gets a session, and can see the other > sessions (systat, finger, talk, advise, ...). Exactly. However, I would change the console stuff a little bit too - dump output to syslog, get input/output by telnetting to another port. The goal would be to get the emulator running totally in the background. > An interesting situation will occur when people have both UNIX and TOPS-xx > access on the same computer, and will want to cross-mount file systems. > But once it's all out in the open, that's the kind of fun they can have. Having control of what a DZ11 "is" has it's advantages: - Start Kermit under TOPS-10, connect to a "TTY" on the "DZ11" and you get a UNIX prompt. Or, a kermit session in SERVER mode which would let you do FTP-type things. Or just a plain outbound telnet session to wherever you want. - Going the other way, you could use ANOTHER port and give the incoming connection a Kermit session in server mode. Again, FTP-type things. Plus, the advantage that you could do this from a remote machine on the Internet. Shameless Kermit plug :) Isn't it fun deciding what to do with software that's 20 years old, running on an emulator that isn't even released yet? I hope the GCC port happens... that would help getting a newer version of Kermit running. Frank, care to do the port of C-Kermit to the PDP-10? art k. Article 2821 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Good news! TOPS-20 v4.1 booted successfully Date: 22 Dec 2000 15:04:06 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 60 Message-ID: <91vqh6$8d4$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <91tf5c$rqf$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A424950.301C6AB5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <91venl$8ut$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977497446 8612 128.59.39.2 (22 Dec 2000 15:04:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 2000 15:04:06 GMT Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:2821 In article <91venl$8ut$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: : Why can't you just treat the kermit as just another node to the : -10 system? I don't know if it's possible with the -20 stuff : since they were always hamstrung with not wanting to do an ANF-10 : style implementation. And, if the kermit node was treated via : the ethernet, both -10 and -20 have code that already know how : to talk that protocol. : Kermit is a regular user program like TECO, that reads and writes the job's controlling TTY, but unlike TECO. But rather than reading editing commands and printing their results, Kermit is reading and writing file-transfer protocol packets. Meanwhile, you are accessing the PDP-10 (or emulator) from (say) a VT100 emulator on a PC. When you want to transfer a file from the PC to the PDP-10, you start Kermit on the 10, tell it to receive, "escape back" to the PC (e.g. by typing Alt-x), and tell it to send the file. And vice versa in the other direction. I think we're complicating matters unnecessarily (and perhaps fatally) by postulating yet another outboard processor for networking. Maybe I'm not understanding something, but it seems awfully complicated to require the PC to simultaneously emulate two or three different computers of different architectures, plus the varied and sundry connections and protocols between them ("ring the doorbell", etc), than to emulate just one computer, especially on a general-purpose timesharing system like UNIX, where process scheduling might get in the way of the timing constraints in those protocols. Implementing ARPAnet protocols for the entire PDP-10 line would be a big job, since there were so many ways to do it -- outboard processors, host-to-IMP protocols, host-to-ANF10 protocols, etc etc. TOPS-20 v6 and later could do it all internally, which is much simpler. But as I recall, in all cases the ARPAnet monitor was a "layered product", not part of the base system. I think the choice of KS10 for the first emulation was wise because it minimizes the multiple emulations problem -- I don't recall for sure, but I don't think the KS10 had a PDP-11 front end for terminals... But the KL sure did. And then think of ITS with its SUPDUP front ends, and the crazy setup they had at CMU, with a hierarchical network of PDP-11s all over campus running a home-grown OS (as I recall) that multiplexed and compressed terminal sessions. A serial-port-driver to Telnet interface, however, gets bare-bones Internet connectivity for all of these at once (I think). Maybe it won't let you make, e.g., Telnet or FTP connections OUT OF the 10, but you can make Telnet connections INTO the 10, and you can transfer files into and out of the 10 over these connections. Later, if somebody finds a way to implement ARPAnet protocols for some particular combination of OS version and outboard processor, then you get all the rest -- FTP, Telnet, Finger, etc, initiated FROM the 10, plus email, bboard, etc. Actually, the serial-port/telnet emulator *could* let you make connections out of the 10 with Kermit, if it came with a Telnet client as well as a server, since Kermit-10 and Kermit-20 both let you dial out from a serial port. - Frank Article 3527 of alt.sys.pdp10: Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Kermit (Was: Barb, DSKB is not in catalog!) References: <3A85706B.B4A96DC3@nospam.nospam> <963uq7$b9s$1@spies.com> <9643f0$ohe$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <96e538$d0h$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <87hf1w4uwg.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 15 Feb 2001 17:50:23 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 15 Feb 2001 17:50:33 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:3527 Paul Repacholi writes: > The CI-20 was a CI-780 with differnet paddle cards. Don't know > about the NI-20. There's a lot more difference than "paddle cards". There's a set of boards that installs in the place of an RH20, and also requires a few backplane changes. Those boards attach by a cable to the box that has the CI20 guts; that box may be the same as the CI780 box. But the interface boards are *much* different. The NIA20 (AKA NI20) uses the same interface boards as a CI20 attached to a different box. I think some of the boards in the box are even the same, but I don't have detailed hardware docs or prints.