Article 5532 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: 05 Jul 2001 21:31:14 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 130 Sender: alderson+news@panix6.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9htnjk$b3o$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <7xd77hpm6d.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 994383074 17262 166.84.0.231 (6 Jul 2001 01:31:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2001 01:31:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5532 Per Danielsson writes: > Christopher Stacy wrote: >> Yes, Zork was written in MDL. By the time that people were interested in it, >> the source code was being carefully guarded. > You don't need the sources to play the game. ZORK.EXE for TOPS-20 might be > around somewhere (it's on one of my 9-tracks somewhere) and if you prefer > Tops-10, I have a "PA2020" that is enough to get ZORK running. It emulates > all the necessary JSYSes used by ZORK of around 1980. Note that ZORK.EXE by itself is *not* Zork. It's a small program that GET%'s MDL104.EXE, GTJFN%'s MADADV.SAV, and starts MDL. So you have to have those three files, along with AGC104.EXE (the MDL garbage collector), all in a directory defined as MDL:, for it to work. ZORK.MAC follows: TITLE ZORK BOOTSTRAP SEARCH MONSYM,MACSYM .REQUIRE SYS:MACREL SALL Z=0 ;PASS JFN IN HERE T1=1 T2=2 T3=3 T4=4 P=17 PSTRT==^D<9*3600> ;0900 PEND==^D<18*3600> ;1800 START: RESET MOVE P,[IOWD 10,PDL] MOVEI T1,.FHSLF RPCAP TXNE T3,SC%WHL JRST OKGO ;DONT HASSLE WHEELS SETO T2, SETZ T4, ODCNV ;GET CURRET DATE/TIME HRLZ T1,T2 ;GET MONTH HLR T1,T3 ;GET DAY AOBJN T1,.+1 ;INCR BOTH HALVES HRRZS T4 ;TIME SINCE MIDNITE HRRZS T3 ;DAY OF WEEK CAIE T3,5 ;SATURDAY CAIN T3,6 ; AND SUNDAYS JRST OKGO ; ARE OK MOVEI T3,0 ;INIT LOOP HLUP: SKIPN HTBL(T3) ;ENTRY? JRST CKTIM ;DONE - CHECK TIME CAMN T1,HTBL(T3) ;HOLIDAY MATCH? JRST OKGO ;YES - OK AOJA T3,HLUP ;NO - TRY NEXT CKTIM: CAIL T4,PSTRT ;PRIME TIME START CAIL T4,PEND ; OR PRIME END JRST OKGO ; OFF PRIME - OK TMSG < THE DUNGEON IS AVAILABLE FOR EXPLORING MON THRU FRI: 00:00 - > MOVEI T4,PSTRT ;START OF PRIME TIME CALL TIMOUT TMSG < > MOVEI T4,PEND ;END OF PRIME TIME CALL TIMOUT TMSG < - 24:00 IT IS ALSO OPENED WEEKENDS AND HOLIDAYS. > JRST OKGO HALTF JRST .-1 TIMOUT: MOVEI T1,.PRIOU IDIVI T4,^D3600 ;GET HOURS MOVE T2,T4 ;SET TO OUTPUT MOVX T3,NO%LFL!NO%ZRO+^D10+2B17 NOUT ;DUMP HOURS JSERR TMSG <:> MOVEI T1,.PRIOU IDIVI 5,^D60 ;GET MINUTES MOVE T2,5 NOUT ;DUMP IT JSERR RET OKGO: MOVX T1,GJ%OLD!GJ%SHT HRROI T2,[ASCIZ /MDL:MADADV.SAVE/] GTJFN ;GET HANDLE ON GAME JSHLT MOVE Z,T1 ;SAVE JFN IN ZERO MOVX T2,44B5+OF%RD!OF%EX OPENF ;OPEN FILE JSHLT MOVX T1,GJ%OLD!GJ%SHT HRROI T2,[ASCIZ /MDL:MDL104.EXE/] GTJFN ;GET JFN ON MUDDLE JSHLT HRLI T1,.FHSLF ;FOR GET JSYS MOVE 16,[ACPRG,,5] BLT 16,10 ;FILL ACS JRST 5 ;CONTINUE IN ACS ACPRG: GET MOVEI T1,.FHSLF ;GET E/V FOR SELF GEVEC JRST 1(T2) ;START AT OFFSET 1 PDL: BLOCK 10 RADIX 10 HTBL: 1,,1 ;NEW YEARS 12,,25 ;CHRISTMAS 0 ;END OF TABLE RADIX 8 END <1,,START> -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article 5563 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 14:35:14 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 149 Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9htnjk$b3o$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <7xd77hpm6d.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-559.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5563 On 05 Jul 2001 21:31:14 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote: >Per Danielsson writes: > >> Christopher Stacy wrote: > >>> Yes, Zork was written in MDL. By the time that people were interested in it, >>> the source code was being carefully guarded. > >> You don't need the sources to play the game. ZORK.EXE for TOPS-20 might be >> around somewhere (it's on one of my 9-tracks somewhere) and if you prefer >> Tops-10, I have a "PA2020" that is enough to get ZORK running. It emulates >> all the necessary JSYSes used by ZORK of around 1980. > >Note that ZORK.EXE by itself is *not* Zork. It's a small program that GET%'s >MDL104.EXE, GTJFN%'s MADADV.SAV, and starts MDL. So you have to have those >three files, along with AGC104.EXE (the MDL garbage collector), all in a >directory defined as MDL:, for it to work. > >ZORK.MAC follows: > > TITLE ZORK BOOTSTRAP > SEARCH MONSYM,MACSYM > .REQUIRE SYS:MACREL > SALL The more I look at this code the more familiar it looks. Do you know who wrote this? It looks very similar to code I wrote early 80s to front-end ZORK at the then Dundee Tech and probably posted to the tops-20 mail list.. Anyone know if the archives of this list are available online anywhere? Also around 1982 I recalling hacking TOPS-10 Essex University Mud (Roy Trubshaw, Richard Bartle) to run under TOPS-20 by using a pmap'd high segment to emulate a TOPS-10 shared writeable high segment. A few other fixes to bypass the lack of PAGE UUO in PA1050 were needed as well. The source code for the MUD interpreter was writen in BCPL and confusingly the Dungeon language was also called Muddle but was not the same as Zork's MDL. If anyone has the source code for this classic mult-user dungeon I'd like to hear. I know a number of sites had it at one time. >Z=0 ;PASS JFN IN HERE >T1=1 >T2=2 >T3=3 >T4=4 >P=17 > >PSTRT==^D<9*3600> ;0900 >PEND==^D<18*3600> ;1800 > >START: RESET > MOVE P,[IOWD 10,PDL] > MOVEI T1,.FHSLF > RPCAP > TXNE T3,SC%WHL > JRST OKGO ;DONT HASSLE WHEELS > SETO T2, > SETZ T4, > ODCNV ;GET CURRET DATE/TIME > HRLZ T1,T2 ;GET MONTH > HLR T1,T3 ;GET DAY > AOBJN T1,.+1 ;INCR BOTH HALVES > HRRZS T4 ;TIME SINCE MIDNITE > HRRZS T3 ;DAY OF WEEK > CAIE T3,5 ;SATURDAY > CAIN T3,6 ; AND SUNDAYS > JRST OKGO ; ARE OK > MOVEI T3,0 ;INIT LOOP >HLUP: SKIPN HTBL(T3) ;ENTRY? > JRST CKTIM ;DONE - CHECK TIME > CAMN T1,HTBL(T3) ;HOLIDAY MATCH? > JRST OKGO ;YES - OK > AOJA T3,HLUP ;NO - TRY NEXT > >CKTIM: CAIL T4,PSTRT ;PRIME TIME START > CAIL T4,PEND ; OR PRIME END > JRST OKGO ; OFF PRIME - OK > TMSG < >THE DUNGEON IS AVAILABLE FOR EXPLORING MON THRU FRI: > 00:00 - > > MOVEI T4,PSTRT ;START OF PRIME TIME > CALL TIMOUT > TMSG < > > > MOVEI T4,PEND ;END OF PRIME TIME > CALL TIMOUT > TMSG < - 24:00 > >IT IS ALSO OPENED WEEKENDS AND HOLIDAYS. > >> > JRST OKGO > HALTF > JRST .-1 > >TIMOUT: MOVEI T1,.PRIOU > IDIVI T4,^D3600 ;GET HOURS > MOVE T2,T4 ;SET TO OUTPUT > MOVX T3,NO%LFL!NO%ZRO+^D10+2B17 > NOUT ;DUMP HOURS > JSERR > TMSG <:> > MOVEI T1,.PRIOU > IDIVI 5,^D60 ;GET MINUTES > MOVE T2,5 > NOUT ;DUMP IT > JSERR > RET > >OKGO: MOVX T1,GJ%OLD!GJ%SHT > HRROI T2,[ASCIZ /MDL:MADADV.SAVE/] > GTJFN ;GET HANDLE ON GAME > JSHLT > MOVE Z,T1 ;SAVE JFN IN ZERO > MOVX T2,44B5+OF%RD!OF%EX > OPENF ;OPEN FILE > JSHLT > MOVX T1,GJ%OLD!GJ%SHT > HRROI T2,[ASCIZ /MDL:MDL104.EXE/] > GTJFN ;GET JFN ON MUDDLE > JSHLT > HRLI T1,.FHSLF ;FOR GET JSYS > MOVE 16,[ACPRG,,5] > BLT 16,10 ;FILL ACS > JRST 5 ;CONTINUE IN ACS > >ACPRG: GET > MOVEI T1,.FHSLF ;GET E/V FOR SELF > GEVEC > JRST 1(T2) ;START AT OFFSET 1 > >PDL: BLOCK 10 > > RADIX 10 > >HTBL: 1,,1 ;NEW YEARS > 12,,25 ;CHRISTMAS > 0 ;END OF TABLE > > RADIX 8 > > END <1,,START> -- Alan Article 5565 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!xara.net!gxn.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!ulcc.ac.uk!ronan From: Ronan Flood Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: 9 Jul 2001 15:07:13 GMT Organization: 1.3.6.1.4.1.6735 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9ichb1$l5b$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> References: <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: shadow.ng.ulcc.ac.uk Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5565 Alan Greig wrote: > Also around 1982 I recalling hacking TOPS-10 Essex University Mud (Roy > Trubshaw, Richard Bartle) to run under TOPS-20 by using a pmap'd high > segment to emulate a TOPS-10 shared writeable high segment. A few > other fixes to bypass the lack of PAGE UUO in PA1050 were needed as > well. Hellfire! Why did Richard not mention this to me when I was going through the same contortions at Liverpool Poly a few years later!? I wound up creating a bespoke version of PA1050 for it, as well as a PMAP etc bootstrap similar to that ZORK one. > The source code for the MUD interpreter was writen in BCPL and > confusingly the Dungeon language was also called Muddle but was not > the same as Zork's MDL. If anyone has the source code for this classic > mult-user dungeon I'd like to hear. I know a number of sites had it at > one time. I suspect there might be legal difficulties with making it available ... I think I have it in a SUBFIL master snarfed from TOPS-20, in a VMS BACKUP saveset on a TK50 -- with no facilities for reading it back, AFAIA. You'll probably be interested in anyway. -- Ronan Flood working for but not speaking for Network Services, University of London Computer Centre (which means: don't bother ULCC if I've said something you don't like) Article 5568 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.dra.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feeder.qis.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:53:27 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> <9ichb1$l5b$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-531.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5568 On 9 Jul 2001 15:07:13 GMT, Ronan Flood wrote: >Alan Greig wrote: > >> Also around 1982 I recalling hacking TOPS-10 Essex University Mud (Roy >> Trubshaw, Richard Bartle) to run under TOPS-20 by using a pmap'd high >> segment to emulate a TOPS-10 shared writeable high segment. A few >> other fixes to bypass the lack of PAGE UUO in PA1050 were needed as >> well. > >Hellfire! Why did Richard not mention this to me when I was going >through the same contortions at Liverpool Poly a few years later!? >I wound up creating a bespoke version of PA1050 for it, as well as >a PMAP etc bootstrap similar to that ZORK one. Ronan, It's a long time ago but if you recall we were in touch way back then. I remember Richard suggesting I talk to you. I recall you managed to rapidly enter wizard mode when playing it on the DCT DEC20 by dialup and I never did find the backdoor in the source code that allowed this. IIRC it appended the name of the current player to the variable "us" but exactly the sequence of commands I never did decode. If you recall I also had some mods to PA1050 but as several sites grabbed the code I didn't want them to have to run a patched PA1050. Later the distribution was limited after contracts were signed for commercial use and I received a letter insisting we stop running it. Fortunately I was able to did out an old email from Richard giving permission for us to run it and that stood. At one point a change to TOPS-20 altered the way process mapped pages were unmapped in routine KSELF (I think) by setting the abort (cz%abt?) bit. This had the result that any pages not explicitly flushed to disk were replaced with the virgin version so it was necessary to patch MONITR.EXE as well. I never agreed with the logic of this change as it broke a number of other applications but Mark Crispin (IIRC) pointed out at the time why it was a good idea. I still think an extra bit should have been defined somewhere to allow both the old and the new behaviour. >> The source code for the MUD interpreter was writen in BCPL and >> confusingly the Dungeon language was also called Muddle but was not >> the same as Zork's MDL. If anyone has the source code for this classic >> mult-user dungeon I'd like to hear. I know a number of sites had it at >> one time. > >I suspect there might be legal difficulties with making it available ... >I think I have it in a SUBFIL master snarfed from TOPS-20, in a VMS >BACKUP saveset on a TK50 -- with no facilities for reading it back, >AFAIA. You'll probably be interested in anyway. I I'll have a look. -- Alan Article 5581 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!easynet-monga!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!ulcc.ac.uk!ronan From: Ronan Flood Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: 10 Jul 2001 13:16:48 GMT Organization: 1.3.6.1.4.1.6735 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <9iev80$rmq$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> References: <9ichb1$l5b$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: shadow.ng.ulcc.ac.uk Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5581 Alan Greig wrote: > It's a long time ago but if you recall we were in touch way back then. I suspect your recall is better than mine, but you do ring a bell :) > I remember Richard suggesting I talk to you. Hmm, so which order were we working in? I would have been involved in porting MUD mostly in '85, and I don't remember getting or sending modifications. > I recall you managed to > rapidly enter wizard mode when playing it on the DCT DEC20 by dialup > and I never did find the backdoor in the source code that allowed > this. IIRC it appended the name of the current player to the variable > "us" but exactly the sequence of commands I never did decode. That sounds more like something Richard would have done ... Reminds me of someone (yourself?) dialing in from another site, who managed to bypass the limited command-table we had in EXEC for student use by using DDT and his knowledge of the EXEC source. > If you recall I also had some mods to PA1050 but as several sites > grabbed the code I didn't want them to have to run a patched PA1050. I think I was trying to avoid 20-fying the MUD BCPL source too much, although the MACRO came in for a fair amount of addition. I can remember adding a new UUO (CALLI -2?) to PA1050 to set the RDTXT/TEXTI prompt-buffer so forced ^Rs would work properly, and adding OF%THW when the persona-file was opened, for shared read/write. Another interesting thing was that PA1050's implementation of the MSTIME UUO was not monotonically increasing across jobs. As MUD used this when interlocking, one job could find that another had apparently taken out a lock in the (local) future. -- Ronan Flood working for but not speaking for Network Services, University of London Computer Centre (which means: don't bother ULCC if I've said something you don't like) Article 5584 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!news.voicenet.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:22:25 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <9ichb1$l5b$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> <9iev80$rmq$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-778.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5584 On 10 Jul 2001 13:16:48 GMT, Ronan Flood wrote: > >Hmm, so which order were we working in? I would have been involved >in porting MUD mostly in '85, and I don't remember getting or sending >modifications. The order I recall was Richard saying that you (as one of the original coders) were now working at Liverpool Poly having transitioned to TOPS-20 and your initial prognosis for getting MUD running on TOPS-20 had not been good. As I had already hacked DECWAR (I think it was) to emulate a shared write high segment I suggested this method and spoke to you at some point. I know I had to work with two distinct versions. The first was just plain MUD but the second also had Fraggle Rock (was it) and something else I can no longer recall. The whole story was featured in a 198x edition of Practical Computing which I may still have kicking about. > >> I recall you managed to >> rapidly enter wizard mode when playing it on the DCT DEC20 by dialup >> and I never did find the backdoor in the source code that allowed >> this. IIRC it appended the name of the current player to the variable >> "us" but exactly the sequence of commands I never did decode. > >That sounds more like something Richard would have done ... Maybe it was Richard (who did often call in over our then extremely limited JANET connections which piggy backed in through Dundee University) but I thought that was you. I think some interesting floating point arithmetic was done to an ascii string involving some input from the user probably dependent on the time of day. The magical end result was that the user name of the current player was added to the string "us" listing permanent wizards. At least one name for you was already hard-coded into that string in the original Essex sources. At least I think that was how it was done. >Reminds me of someone (yourself?) dialing in from another site, who >managed to bypass the limited command-table we had in EXEC for student >use by using DDT and his knowledge of the EXEC source. That sounds familiar :) > >> If you recall I also had some mods to PA1050 but as several sites >> grabbed the code I didn't want them to have to run a patched PA1050. > >I think I was trying to avoid 20-fying the MUD BCPL source too much, >although the MACRO came in for a fair amount of addition. > >I can remember adding a new UUO (CALLI -2?) to PA1050 to set the >RDTXT/TEXTI prompt-buffer so forced ^Rs would work properly, and >adding OF%THW when the persona-file was opened, for shared read/write. >Another interesting thing was that PA1050's implementation of the >MSTIME UUO was not monotonically increasing across jobs. As MUD >used this when interlocking, one job could find that another had >apparently taken out a lock in the (local) future. Aha! I never found the cause of that locking problem and implemented some more locking around the "lock" routine to get round it. Do you know Steve Reece? I mentioned Essex Mud to Steve at the recent VMS technical update days in London and he mentioned your name which was the first time I had heard it in years, I think he was probably a student back then. -- Alan Article 5587 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!easynet-monga!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!ulcc.ac.uk!ronan From: Ronan Flood Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: 11 Jul 2001 12:56:40 GMT Organization: 1.3.6.1.4.1.6735 Lines: 57 Message-ID: <9ihie8$5ie$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> References: <9iev80$rmq$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: shadow.ng.ulcc.ac.uk Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5587 Alan Greig wrote: > I know I had to work with two distinct versions. > The first was just plain MUD but the second also had Fraggle Rock (was > it) and something else I can no longer recall. I only worked with MUD and VALLEY, but there were also ROCK, MIST, and UNI -- these appeared after I left Essex IIRC, and were separate games written by others using the MUD engine. There may have been more. > >Another interesting thing was that PA1050's implementation of the > >MSTIME UUO was not monotonically increasing across jobs. As MUD > >used this when interlocking, one job could find that another had > >apparently taken out a lock in the (local) future. > Aha! I never found the cause of that locking problem and implemented > some more locking around the "lock" routine to get round it. I didn't bother trying to fix PA1050 for that, just changed the game sources to use the TIME JSYS instead. Another PA1050 mod was to use THIBR instead of DISMS for the HIBER UUO, as player interaction relied on cross-job WAKEs. What did you do about resetting? Under TOPS-10, the hiseg would hang around in swap-space even if no one was playing, so that the state of the game was retained -- at least for a while; depended on how busy the system was. Eventually the hiseg would be flushed (and there were ways of forcing that, either by running lots of other programs, or fiddling with the EXE file) and the next time the game was run, it would be in its initial state again. Under TOPS-20, this would not happen automatically, so I kept a virgin copy of the database file which would be PMAPed in and BLTed over the live database when it was determined that this was necessary. I've forgotten what criteria were used to decide that, but probably time since last reset and similar. > Do you know Steve Reece? I mentioned Essex Mud to Steve at the recent > VMS technical update days in London and he mentioned your name which > was the first time I had heard it in years, I think he was probably a > student back then. The name is vaguely familiar, but if he's the person I'm thinking of, he was a lecturer/researcher who arrived in my final year. As regards getting hold of a copy of MUD to run under TS10/simh, I see that is running a freely accessible version which has been ported to C++ under NT. That being the case, Richard&Roy might not have a problem releasing whatever BCPL/MACRO source/executable survives, for hobbyist use. Could mean having to bootstrap a BCPL compiler though ... -- Ronan Flood working for but not speaking for Network Services, University of London Computer Centre (which means: don't bother ULCC if I've said something you don't like) Article 5588 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:14:15 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 72 Message-ID: <39nokt4isdtvi750f7hmsobojomdo4uitp@4ax.com> References: <9iev80$rmq$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> <9ihie8$5ie$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-251.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5588 On 11 Jul 2001 12:56:40 GMT, Ronan Flood wrote: >Alan Greig wrote: > >> I know I had to work with two distinct versions. >> The first was just plain MUD but the second also had Fraggle Rock (was >> it) and something else I can no longer recall. > >I only worked with MUD and VALLEY, but there were also ROCK, MIST, >and UNI -- these appeared after I left Essex IIRC, and were separate >games written by others using the MUD engine. There may have been >more. Yes I remember Valley now. That was in the original distribution I received from Richard. Rock (Fraggle Rock) appeared in the final update I got from Essex before Richard left.. > >I didn't bother trying to fix PA1050 for that, just changed the game >sources to use the TIME JSYS instead. Another PA1050 mod was to use >THIBR instead of DISMS for the HIBER UUO, as player interaction relied >on cross-job WAKEs. That's starting to sound familiar as well. > >What did you do about resetting? Under TOPS-10, the hiseg would hang >around in swap-space even if no one was playing, so that the state of >the game was retained -- at least for a while; depended on how busy >the system was. Eventually the hiseg would be flushed (and there >were ways of forcing that, either by running lots of other programs, >or fiddling with the EXE file) and the next time the game was run, it >would be in its initial state again. Under TOPS-20, this would not >happen automatically, so I kept a virgin copy of the database file >which would be PMAPed in and BLTed over the live database when it >was determined that this was necessary. I've forgotten what criteria >were used to decide that, but probably time since last reset and >similar. Did that as well. I think I had a program called RESET which wizards could run manually. Can't recall how I checked for wizard status now. Maybe gave them a password. The more I think about it the more I'm sure we were in touch on and off for a year or so. Funny how memory is so dodgy after less than 20 years, I have no idea at all how you can safely convict someone based on world war 2 witnesses 50 years later yet it happens > >> Do you know Steve Reece? I mentioned Essex Mud to Steve at the recent >> VMS technical update days in London and he mentioned your name which >> was the first time I had heard it in years, I think he was probably a >> student back then. > >The name is vaguely familiar, but if he's the person I'm thinking >of, he was a lecturer/researcher who arrived in my final year. He could well have been a lecturer and or researcher I guess. He's now on the DECUS UK events committee. Hey, maybe I should suggest a TOPS-10/TOPS-20 DECUS reunion event in the UK. > > >As regards getting hold of a copy of MUD to run under TS10/simh, >I see that is running a freely >accessible version which has been ported to C++ under NT. That >being the case, Richard&Roy might not have a problem releasing >whatever BCPL/MACRO source/executable survives, for hobbyist use. >Could mean having to bootstrap a BCPL compiler though ... -- Alan Article 5575 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Timothy Stark Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:34:13 -0000 Message-ID: References: <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> <9ichb1$l5b$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5575 Ronan Flood wrote: > I suspect there might be legal difficulties with making it available ... > I think I have it in a SUBFIL master snarfed from TOPS-20, in a VMS > BACKUP saveset on a TK50 -- with no facilities for reading it back, > AFAIA. You'll probably be interested in anyway. I looked into that web site. Whoa! Unlimited license for MUDDLE developement system costs 30,000 pounds! -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) Article 5572 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.gtei.net.MISMATCH!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: 09 Jul 2001 15:35:39 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 17 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9htnjk$b3o$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <7xd77hpm6d.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 994707339 24734 166.84.0.228 (9 Jul 2001 19:35:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 2001 19:35:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5572 Alan Greig writes: > The more I look at this code the more familiar it looks. Do you know who > wrote this? It looks very similar to code I wrote early 80s to front-end ZORK > at the then Dundee Tech and probably posted to the tops-20 mail list.. Anyone > know if the archives of this list are available online anywhere? Lemme think. We got Zork at the University of Chicago around 1978, with the ZORK.MAC frontend included. No idea who wrote it. (The very first patching hack I ever learned on the -20 was to JFCL the holiday check in the .EXE with a DEPOSIT. Nearly zorched an academic career playing both Zork and ADVENT.) -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless Article 5578 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news2.best.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:27:37 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9htnjk$b3o$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <7xd77hpm6d.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3B44932A.3BCEB7FD@nospam.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-924.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5578 On 09 Jul 2001 15:35:39 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote: >Alan Greig writes: > >> The more I look at this code the more familiar it looks. Do you know who >> wrote this? It looks very similar to code I wrote early 80s to front-end ZORK >> at the then Dundee Tech and probably posted to the tops-20 mail list.. Anyone >> know if the archives of this list are available online anywhere? > >Lemme think. We got Zork at the University of Chicago around 1978, with the >ZORK.MAC frontend included. No idea who wrote it. The earliest I'd have likely written something like this was 1979 I think. My memory may be dodgy on this but I don't think early versions of MDL allowed you to start at offset 1 with with a file handle in 0. If you have a copy of the MDL release notes or edit history it may document when this change was made. >(The very first patching hack I ever learned on the -20 was to JFCL the holiday >check in the .EXE with a DEPOSIT. Nearly zorched an academic career playing Not quite as much fun as bypassing the check with wheel though :) >both Zork and ADVENT.) And I can think of several friendships ruined for ever by MUD. Plus several made so not all bad :) -- Alan Article 5526 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Timothy Stark Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 23:16:18 -0000 Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9htnjk$b3o$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <7xd77hpm6d.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5526 Christopher Stacy wrote: > You mean you have the source for MDL, or the source for ZORK? I think > that MDL is owned by MIT, and that ZORK was owned by some individuals > who worked at MIT and formed a company called InfoCom. I don't know > if InfoCom is around anymore, but if it is gone, the rights to ZORK > were assigned to someone else (most likely back to one or more of the > individual authors). I mentioned this discussion to one of them last > night, but haven't heard anything back. Infocom went out of business some time ago... You can check at http://www.ifarchive.org for more information... -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) Article 5531 of alt.sys.pdp10: Path: nntp1.ba.best.com!news1.best.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Zork [was: Algol-10] Date: 05 Jul 2001 21:22:24 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 17 Sender: alderson+news@panix6.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3B422380.58B395E7@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9htnjk$b3o$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <7xd77hpm6d.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 994382544 17262 166.84.0.231 (6 Jul 2001 01:22:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2001 01:22:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Xref: nntp1.ba.best.com alt.sys.pdp10:5531 Bob Supnik writes: > I have the original MDL ITS source, but only as a listing. The > ownership of the source is complex (my current understanding is that > MIT has the copyrights). Without a working ITS simulation system, > availability of the source is moot. MDL runs just fine on Tops-20, at least as of version 104. Version 105 was a bit problematic, but I think could be made to run. MDL105 was how I first made CStacy's net.acquaintance nearly 20 years ago, obtaining it for the use of the University of Chicago's then-new CS department. Perhaps one we'll meet in the real world. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless